Amazin' Avenue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: Along The Olentangy for Ohio State Fans!

Diary: Urine good hands?

(moved from diaries; good discussion here --eric)

ESPN says the Mets are close to signing old man Alou: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2667558

Alou had pretty good stats last season in limited action, but he's old and I'm not confident he can stay healthy for a full season.  Would he be materially better than Milledge or Green?  I don't think so.

0 recs  |  Comment 38 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I'd be ok with Alou for 1 season
Not psyched for 2.  Green should go, and Julio is just a wasted roster spot at this point.
Watch me paste this pathetic palooka with a powerful paralyzing perfect pachydermous percussion pitch.

by Mr. Met on Nov 18, 2006 8:49 PM EST reply actions  

not a great idea.
I do not like the short-term but expensive old-man deals that Omar is making to fill the team's holes this year.  Far better would be to go after one or two top-tier free agents and trust to the farm system and the bargain bin to provide roster filler at better prices.  Honestly, all that money on Duque, Easley, and now Moises could be better spent elsewhere or just kept in the Wilpons' pockets until a reason to blow it came up in midseason.

by anonymous on Nov 18, 2006 9:28 PM EST reply actions  

Well, Alou aside
I don't think Easley's so expensive, and as for el Dugue, I'm not sure who else Omar could have signed who would have been better for the same money - any ideas about that?

Also, I'm reasonably sure that even if the Alou deal happens that it won't be Omar's last position-player move this off-season, so we'll have to wait and see what he has in mind.  If Alou is healthy, he's just what the Mets need, actually, other than his sub-par defense, but I hate to see him tying up the space for multiple years.

Watch me paste this pathetic palooka with a powerful paralyzing perfect pachydermous percussion pitch.

by Mr. Met on Nov 18, 2006 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

expense
They're not actually that expensive for a large-market team, and obviously Easley is cheap enough that it doesn't even matter if he makes the team.  I don't even have a major problem with Duque becoming the new Trachsel-like innings-eater in the rotation.  It just seems to me like when you get up above $5M and into multiple-year territory, it's generally better to spend it on players who are likely to get better or at least stay the same, say players under around 32-33 years old.  Picture, for instance, taking the $12M/2yrs that Duque got and putting it toward a bigger deal for Ted Lilly instead, or taking Alou's rumored money and going after Drew.  Obviously you can't always go for better and more expensive players this way, so these examples are a little fannish, but my basic belief is that it's a sounder procedure to go for the top and the bottom of the market, rather than spending on the middle-tier players.  I like to see a team sign real bona-fide stars and then use the minor-league system, spring training invites, and waivers to fill in the remaining gaps.  Even if that means going into the spring with, say, a spot in the infield and a spot in the starting rotation up for grabs (as well as the inevitable bench and bullpen jobs), it makes me feel more secure than the veteran alternative -- because the multi-year deals for players that end up not being useful at all are what kills a team's flexibility.

by anonymous on Nov 18, 2006 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Players
I really have two schools of thought on this one.

1) Sign high-risk (injury concerns or age) players to bigger money one-year deals
2) Sign superstars to big money long-term deals

If the Mets only have to guarantee one year, they could do far worse than Moises Alou in 2007 for $9 million or whatever he may sign for. Two or three guaranteed years, that's a problem. One year at big money is not a big deal, especially for a team with the revenue of the Mets. If he's terrible or he gets injured they can sweep his salary under the carpet and forget about him, knowing that he'll be gone at the end of the season.

Long-term, you sign players like Carlos Beltran, young players about to hit their prime who can hit and play premium defensive positions. Superstars. With all due respect to this year's crop of free agents, guys like Soriano, Carlos Lee, etc. aren't superstars, they're just going to be paid like they are.

We know Omar Minaya isn't afraid to sign an aging star, and I think we can all agree that the free agents available right now aren't exactly drool-worthy. If ever there was a year to sign free agents to short-term big money deals it's this one. The pool of available players is uninspiring, so I think it's a reasonable approach to patch the holes for the time being and bide your time until the next superstar becomes available either via trade or free agency.

by Eric Simon on Nov 19, 2006 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

short is right.
My slowly-souring reaction to Omar's approach this offseason was based on the initial reports that Alou had received something like $16M/2yrs.  Even if $9M is still more than I think Moises is worth for a year, I basically agree with you that it's not such a bad idea for the team to take a short-term gamble of this kind.

by anonymous on Nov 19, 2006 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with your thinking,
but Lilly would be too much of a gamble for my taste after he blew up with the Skanks, and Drew is a lefty, and it's pretty clear we need a righty bat.  If we got rid of Green that would be a different story.  Anyway, Omar seems to like to stock up, so that when those veterans go down with injury, as they inevitably will, he'll have some solid, albeit less experienced talent to back them up.
Watch me paste this pathetic palooka with a powerful paralyzing perfect pachydermous percussion pitch.

by Mr. Met on Nov 18, 2006 11:05 PM EST reply actions  

not for hitters though
Plus D-Mat hasn't even gotten his deal yet
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 19, 2006 6:03 AM EST up reply actions  

The Soriano deal
though will bugger the hitter market.
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 19, 2006 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

So....
the Mets want to replace an oft-injured 35 year old with an oft-injured 41 year old (both ages will be as of the July 2007 All-Star break)?  Is that a good idea, in general?  I am not thinking about the money spent-- what does it matter to the Mets, who are a high-income/high-payroll team-- but about the team construction.  When you bring in a lot of money, you can make moves like this.  This is one of the things the other New York team does.

I think there is an additional factor, though I could be wrong: Isn't there an Expo connection between Omar & Moises?  One nice last payday for some old friend, so to speak-- one last chance for glory and the World Series?

"We praise or blame as one or the other affords more opportunity for exhibiting our power of judgement." Friedrich Nietzsche, "All Too Human" (1878)

by wgarrett on Nov 19, 2006 7:02 AM EST reply actions  

I'm a little puzzled by the move too
What does Alou give you that Floyd doesn't, they're both injury prone and likely to spend time on the DL. When both are right they'll be productive hitters. Cliff also probably comes cheaper also. The only difference is that Alou is a right handed batter. Also, the outfield D is a concern a both Alou and Shawn Green are liabilities in the OF. I cringe having both these guys on either side of Beltran next year.
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 19, 2006 7:16 AM EST up reply actions  

By August, after chasing all those balls...
...that Alou and Green can't reach, Beltran will be worn down to about 135 lbs.  That'll do wonders for his slugging percentage.

by madisonmetsfan on Nov 19, 2006 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Alou
Games played by both players since 1996:
Year       Floyd    Alou
---------------------
1996     117      143
1997      61      150
1998     153      159
1999      69        0
2000     121      126
2001     149      136
2002     146      132
2003     108      151
2004     113      155
2005     150      123
2006      97       98
As long as the Mets hedge their bets and carry a capable backup/platoon partner for Alou, I still don't hate this deal. In fact, Endy Chavez might actually be the perfect platoon partner; he is roughly the exact opposite of Alou: fast, great glove, lefty with a weak bat, while Alou is slow, embarrassing in the field and a righty with a still-potent bat.

Assuming health (always dangerous), Moises Alou is still a better hitter at 40 than Floyd is at 35. Floyd still has better wheels and is more fleet afoot, but Alou has been very productive offensively these past three seasons (and for his whole career in general).

by Eric Simon on Nov 19, 2006 7:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Does Alou's Productivity....
have something to do with his home park?  Is the Giants' park better for hitters, for pitchers, or is it neutral?  If it is better for hitters, this would, in part, explain why he is still productive.  I believe Shea is still a pitcher's park.  If all that I'm stating is true, this has to be taken into account.  Please correcte me if I'm wrong.  Thanks.
"We praise or blame as one or the other affords more opportunity for exhibiting our power of judgement." Friedrich Nietzsche, "All Too Human" (1878)

by wgarrett on Nov 19, 2006 8:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Alou Home and Away
Shea is a better hitter's park than AT&T, but probably not by a large enough margin to make a huge impact in the average player's stats.  AT&T's park factor was 16th in 2006 (.993) and Shea was 26th (.902).  

That said, Alou was a much better hitter at home last year.  Home: OBP: 407, SLG: .677.  Away: OBP: .303, SLG: 481

by Shomov on Nov 19, 2006 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Retraction
I meant to say that Shea is a better park for pitchers.

by Shomov on Nov 19, 2006 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

park factors
I don't have the numbers handy, so post 'em if you got 'em, but isn't it widely believed that Candlestick, I mean 3Com, I mean Pac Bell, I mean AT&T Park is actually a pretty decent hitter's park for right-handed batters, though it's death on lefties (with one obvious exception)?  If I'm right, that would be the opposite of Shea's split and a good reason to expect a drop in production from Alou next year.

by anonymous on Nov 19, 2006 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Alou
A couple of years ago when a certain site claimed that an Alou-Mets union was a done deal I ran some numbers to see what Alou's production would have looked like at Shea instead of at Wrigley where Alou had previously played.

Shea is actually a really tough park on right-handed power hitters (though pretty good for left-handed power hitters). I would expect Alou's production to lag somewhat at Shea, but he's still a good enough hitter that some of his homeruns will turn into doubles and, if healthy, I think he'll still be a solid right-handed bat for them next season.

by Eric Simon on Nov 20, 2006 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Not Bad
I don't mind this deal as long as the following are true: 1) He only gets a one year deal. 2) They don't depend on him to start more than 100 games.

I think that a deal involving Millidge is in the works.  Omar seems to be loading up on outfielders.

by Shomov on Nov 19, 2006 9:54 AM EST reply actions  

On second thought
Alou is a downright bargin considering what the Cubs are doing. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2668465

This Thanksgiving, be thankful Omar isn't this dumb.

its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 19, 2006 3:21 PM EST reply actions  

holy jesus h. christ.
By Grabthar's hammer, what a ripoff!  This is the dumbest deal in quite a while.  He will hit a hell of a lot of home runs at Wrigley, though.

by anonymous on Nov 19, 2006 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

and drop a bunch of fly balls in the sun
the Cubs will still suck.
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 19, 2006 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

also:
The initial shock and subsequent giggling having died down a little, I now think something I proposed a little while ago might become a real possibility: if the Cubs are going to play Soriano in left field, they might well want to deal Matt Murton for pitching.  And Murton would be a great fit for the Mets (it'd really be worth going after him with or without Alou, since Green can always be made into a bench player).  The question is what he would cost -- I'd deal either of Heilman, Bannister, or maybe even one of the young guys to get him (depending on what the Mets think internally about the prospects of Humber or Pelfrey becoming aces).

by anonymous on Nov 19, 2006 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

there has been
some unsubstaniated crazy talk that the Cubs plan on have Soriano play Center Field. Absolute lunancy if its true.
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 19, 2006 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Juan Pierre
can't be a corner outfielder, so they must be willing to let JP go via free agency. They gave up some pitching prospects (Mitre and Nolasco) to get him from the Fish for a one-year rental.
Pedro offers you his protection.

by pj on Nov 20, 2006 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

speaking of Juan Pierre
appearently the Dodgers have gone mad too. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2669903
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 20, 2006 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup
This almost makes the Soriano deal look reasonable by comparison. Pierre is a great fielder who hits for a decent average, doesn't walk, doesn't hit for any power, steals bases at an unacceptable rate, has a tiny head, and is utterly replaceable by at least two players in every team's farm system. This deal is laughably bad.

by Eric Simon on Nov 20, 2006 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

he isn't that good a fielder
either. His Range factor was above average this year. But in Florida his range factor was exactly average for 2 years straight. I suspect his RF is helped by the smallish CF in Wrigley. He is probably just an average fielder.
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 21, 2006 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

in addition
he has a water pistol for an arm
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 21, 2006 1:03 AM EST up reply actions  

dodgers already have furcal
not that I need to solve their problems, but who bats leadoff?

pewee pierre (cf)
furcal (ss)
no-mah (1b)
redneck kent (2b)
jd drew (if he re-ups)
betemit (3b)
marlon anderson?
the catcher guy

dodgers will somehow hit fewer HR than their pitiful 2006 total. w/o jd drew they better sign carlos lee.

Pedro offers you his protection.

by pj on Nov 22, 2006 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Well they do have those 3 kids
Loney, Ethier and Kemp who are pretty good. You could move one or 2 of them for a slugger. I think they make the most sense for a NL landing spot for Manny. Or keep them, which would probably require some postion shifting, and get some pop from them They do have some options, but the Pierre signing was really dumb.
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Nov 22, 2006 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Alou still a great hitter
Alou may be just as brittle as Floyd, but in terms of production when he's on the field, Alou is superior: .301/.352/.571 last year and even better in 2005. That SLG mark is the fourt-highest EVER for a 39-year-old.
Soriano had a fairly identical OPS but will make twice as much money as Alou will next year; to me thats a good deal for the Mets.

by nynarwhal on Nov 19, 2006 9:36 PM EST reply actions  

I didn't like the suggestion in the Mets.com
article that Alou would give us the opportunity to move Milledge.

Look, a one-year deal for a 40 year old is not a substitute for a 20-something toolsy rookie who we have at low cost for what...at least 5 years now?

I hope we at least get 3 years out of any star that we trade Milledge for, if that's the thinking.

by peeder on Nov 20, 2006 1:13 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Start posting about the Mets »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

The_buddha_by_lord_karsus_small
PokéMets
Small
Clearly, I Need Baseball Etiquette Training
Jerryjeffy_copy_small
How To Make The 2011 Mets A World Series Caliber Team

Recent FanPosts

Images-1_small
Mets Community Prospect List: #10
Img_1435_small
This Week in Mets Quotes
Small
Should the Mets Trade Beltran?
Small
2011, What Changes to make?
Images-1_small
Mets Community Prospect List 2010: #9
Axolotl_small
WAR/$ and The Real Value of MVP
Small
A Quick Analysis of David Wright's 3 Year Trend

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

A summary of the 2010 Mets season. Tony Bernazard would have been more appropriate for this video,...
My Dickey will go on.
Getting back into the Dickey Photoshop spirit. Because I can. Enjoy!
I'd like to introduce you to the new management team of McDonalds on Northern Boulevard in Flushing!

The staff (from R to L): Jerry Manuel, Omar Minaya, Jeff Wilpon, Jeff Francoeur, Razor Shines, Alex Cora, John Maine, Luis Castillo, Tony Bernazard and Oliver Perez.

Embiggen here.
Deadspin: Omar accosted whilst flying coach

Recent FanShots

This is really jeff Wilpon...
Bill Gallo: This guy gets it right when I can figure out what he's saying.
A grammar message from Dan Warthen to all of us.
Santana Scratched, Gee to Debut
Colby Rasmus on His Way Out of St. Louis?
Mets interested in Darvish?
Gee, Evans, Valdes to join Mets in Washington

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Sponsors

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Texas Rangers Michael Young, left, is held back by Texas Rangers third base coach Dave Anderson (obscured) after being called out at third by third base umpire Alfonso Marquez, front right, to end a baseball game against the Minnesota Twins, Sunday, Sept. 5, 2010, in Minneapolis.  Rangers manager Ron Washington (wearing sunglasses) looks on. The Twins won 6-5. (AP Photo/Paul Battaglia) +1 updates

Twins Top Rangers 6-5 Thanks To Controversial Ump Decision

LOS ANGELES CA - SEPTEMBER 04:  Jamey Carroll #14 of the Los Angeles Dodgers is pulled off the bag as Darren Ford #34 of the San Francisco Giants steals second base in the eighth inning at Dodger Stadium on September 4 2010 in Los Angeles California. The Giants defeated the Dodgers 5-4.  (Photo by Jeff Gross/Getty Images) +1 updates

Dodgers' Slide Continues With 3-0 Loss To Rival Giants

BOSTON - SEPTEMBER 05: Jonathan Papelbon #58 of the Boston Red Sox heads for the dugout after he is pulled in the ninth inning against the Chicago White Sox on September 5 2010 at Fenway Park in Boston Massachusetts.  (Photo by Elsa/Getty Images)

White Sox Score Four In 9th, Hand Jonathan Papelbon His Seventh Blown Save Of 2010

More from SBNation.com >


THE BIG GUY

Aa_avatar_small Eric Simon

THE INCREDIBLES

Blackfish2_small Alex Nelson

Endy_small Rob Castellano

Forecheckah_small Sam Page

Aaavatar_small Mark Himmelstein

Best_infield_ever_small James Kannengieser

Metsstitches_small Eno Sarris

THE NEWS GURU

Piazza_small Joe Budd

THE POET LAUREATE

Hamheadshot__1__small Howard Megdal