Special: "Jeep Showdown at Shea" Tonight on WB11

by Eric Simon on May 19, 2006 9:36 AM EDT

At 6:30pm tonight, prior to the Mets' subway series opener against the Yankees, WB11 will air a special called "Jeep Showdown at Shea". Per the press release:

The special will provide viewers with a behind-the-scenes look at David Wright's pre-game routine, interviews with Willie Randolph and Joe Torre, live "Tailgate Trivia" from Shea Stadium and the results of "WB11 All Time Mets Team" online fan poll.

Some of the highlights include:

Sal Marchiano interviews managers Willie Randolph and Joe Torre, and Lolita Lopez gets the lowdown on what the Subway Series means to new Mets acquisitions: Billy Wagner, Carlos Delgado and Paul Lo Duca.
Get an inside look at Mets rising star David Wright's pre-game routine and rituals. From his arrival at Shea Stadium until he steps out onto the field, WB11 tags along with Wright.
Gary Carter or Mike Piazza, John Franco or Tug McGraw? The fans have spoken and the results of the "WB11 All Time Mets Team" web poll, where Mets fans were able to vote online at http://wb11.com/ and select their favorite players, will be announced LIVE during the program.
Take me out to the ballgame! During the 3 game Subway Series at Shea Stadium, 18,000 pounds of hotdogs, 6500 pounds of peanuts, 8,000 bags of Cracker Jacks and 10,000 gallons of soda will be sold. In "Shea by the Numbers" we provide the stats on Shea's top treats and show you what it takes to host the series.
In addition, Mookie Wilson and WB11 Morning News anchor John Muller will host "Tailgate Trivia" LIVE from the pre-game parking lot at Shea Stadium, where two lucky fans will go head to head to win prizes and game tickets by answering Mets trivia questions.

If you miss the special you can catch segments of it on WB11.com after it airs.

For the record, my vote for best Mets player at each position:

C - Mike Piazza
1B - Keith Hernandez
2B - Edgardo Alfonzo
3B - Howard Johnson (for now)
SS - Rey Ordonez (sad)
LF - Kevin McReynolds
CF - Mookie Wilson
RF - Darryl Strawberry

At shortstop you could make the argument that Bud Harrelson was the best, but he wasn't really very good. He was actually a poorer offensive player than Ordonez and for a longer period of time. You could also very easily pick Cleon Jones as the best left-fielder, but I felt that McReynolds was more consistently good over his career with the Mets.

Eventually, David Wright, Jose Reyes, and Carlos Beltran will be the best at their respective positions.

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Elster

Without looking at any numbers, I remember Elster as a better player than Ordonez.

by OronosFemur on May 19, 2006 10:25 AM EDT reply actions

Elster

He was pretty crappy, too. Elster batted .224/.288/.343 with the Mets; Ordonez batted .245/.290/.304. Rey-O also picked up three Gold Gloves to Elster's zero. You could make the argument that Elster was a better player based on his higher SLG. They both stunk, basically.

by Eric Simon on May 19, 2006 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions

asdf

Elster's numbers are worse than I had thought. I doubt an adjustment for league averages would help him that much vs. Ordonez. It's kind of shocking that the Mets have never had a good shortstop.

by OronosFemur on May 19, 2006 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions

It's why

A-Rod got offered more money to come here than anyone except the Rangers, and I think they offered him 50 million more than we did.

by future on May 19, 2006 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions

best players

what about bud harrelson at short,cleon in left,tommie agee in center.

by cleonfan on May 19, 2006 11:04 AM EDT reply actions

Players

You could definitely make the argument that Harrelson, Jones, and Agee were the best at their respective positions.

by Eric Simon on May 19, 2006 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions

CF

Beltran has a loooooong way to go before passing Wilson, Dykstra, or Agee.

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on May 19, 2006 1:21 PM EDT reply actions

Belt

So do David Wright and Jose Reyes, which is precisely why I used the modifier "eventually". Neither Wilson, Dykstra nor Agee were terrific ballplayers; Wilson and Agee were solid players who stuck around for a while. Carlos Beltran has been a superstar this season, so if he puts up a few years like this he could reasonably be considered the best CF the Mets have ever had.

by Eric Simon on May 19, 2006 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah

I basically agree with you on "eventually" but superstar? I mean Geoff Jenkins has better numbers.

I know, I know, be patient...

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on May 19, 2006 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions

All Time Rotation

Did they include anything about an all time rotation in their poll?

I would probably go:

Seaver
Gooden
Koosman
Cone
Darling

by OronosFemur on May 19, 2006 3:01 PM EDT reply actions

It would go

Seaver
Pedro
Gooden
Koosman
Cone

Love ya Darling. But Pedro is just that good. This list was hard we left of guys like Viola, Leiter, Fernadez, Gentry, Glavine et all who were mighty fine pitchers. As bad as our offensive history is is as good as are starters have been.

its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on May 19, 2006 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Pedro

I love Pedro too, but one full season and one partial season don't bring him into the discussion yet, for me.

by OronosFemur on May 19, 2006 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Rotation

Probably would have as you said:

Seaver
Gooden
Koosman
Cone

But I would put Matlack in place of Darling.

by future on May 19, 2006 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions

As of right now

At the end of Pedro's contract, he'll slot into the 3 spot behind Seaver and Gooden.

Seaver
Gooden
Pedro
Koosman
Cone

by future on May 19, 2006 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Matlack

forgot him. We also a little fire ball named Nolan Ryan who was a pretty fair pitcher too.

its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on May 19, 2006 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah

But he was really good AFTER us.

Unfortunately.

by future on May 19, 2006 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Ordonez vs. Harrelson

If you look them up on the Baseball Prospectus website, Harrelson crushes Ordonez. BP credits Harrelson with 44 Wins Above Replacement as a Met (including both offense and defense); Ordonez has 19. When you look at stats that adjust for the overall offensive environments they played in, Harrelson (who played in a very low-offense era)actually comes out as a much better offensive player -- or, more accurately, he was bad, while Ordonez was atrocious. Harrelson had a career EQA of .245; Ordonez's EQA was .214. Ordonez was below replacement level on offense every single year of his Mets career.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many players in baseball history who held down a regular job for as long as Ordonez (7 years!) while hitting as poorly as he did.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/ordonre01.shtml
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/harrebu01.shtml

by Straw18 on May 19, 2006 4:58 PM EDT reply actions

Thanks

Nicely done; thanks for all of the info to back up your case, it's much appreciated.

by Eric Simon on May 19, 2006 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions

On the other hand

We might want to deduct points from Harrelson for his pathetic performance as a (badly overmatched) manager.

by Straw18 on May 19, 2006 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Ordonez was the only player I've ever seen

in person, and literally, could not believe my eyes with what he did on the field. When he was at his fielding peak, it was divinity on the diamond. He holds the errorless streak record, no surprise.

Although when I first saw him taking batting practice with Carlos Baerga, I seriously wondered why they let him bat.

by peeder on May 19, 2006 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Harrelson vs. Ordonez

I think you're off on Harrelson vs. Ordonez, Eric. While Harrelson was a bad hitter -- there's no doubt about that -- he played in a poor era for hitters. More specifically, shortstops were exceptionally bad.

Over the course of Harrelson's career, the average shortstop hit .240/.299/.307. Harrelson hit .236/.327/.288.

Harrelson was also a fine fielder, and Rey was always a tad overrated. Ordonez was better, but not tremendously so.

Over the course of Ordonez's career, the average shortstop hit .261/.322/.375. Ordonez hit .246/.289/.310.

Lee Sinins figures that Ordonez was -208 RCAA over his career and Harrelson was -117. However Harrelson was +64 RCAP (one of the higher totals in Mets history) and Ordonez -112 RCAP.

In short, Harrelson has two things going for him: (1) he was a typical hitting shortstop for his era, and Ordonez was far below average, and (2) Harrelson at least posted a .327 OBA, a more valuable trait than Ordonez's advantage in slugging.

I mean, how many times have we wished a .327 OBA for Reyes around here?

by Alex Nelson on May 19, 2006 9:04 PM EDT reply actions

Sorry

I missed Staw's answer. My argument is pretty much the same.

by Alex Nelson on May 19, 2006 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions

I Remember....

I remember when Ordonez was being compared to Ozzie Smith early in his career. Does anyone else remember that? I always thought that was way off-base and it proved to be so. I think Harrelson was better than Ordonez.

I think Dykstra was a better CF than Mookie. It seemed to me that Mookie became a better hitter during his career when he was getting less than 400 ABs, getting on base more and such.

Other than that, I agree with the list.

by wgarrett on May 20, 2006 10:12 PM EDT reply actions

Ozzie

Every great defensive shortstop who comes around will get compared to Ozzie. Ozzie was the most valuable defensive shortstop maybe ever. Ordonez was excellent, one of baseball's three or four best most seasons, but not as valuable defensively as the Wizard. Ozzie could also hit a little: he hit .262/.337/.328 and stole 580 bases. Ordonez wishes he did any of those things, despite playing in a more offense-friendly time period.

Center field is a dreadful position for the Mets. There are really four competitors for the spot: Mookie, Dykstra, Lee Mazzilli, and Lance Johnson. Mookie wasn't very good but played a fair time; Dykstra was only around for five seasons and never had more than 431 at bats in a season, Mazzilli had twice as many at bats as Dykstra but was inconsistent, and Johnson was excellent but only at Shea for a season and a half.

When Rob Neyer did this he picked Mazilli, and I guess I'd agree. Mazilli looked like a star when he first came up, and was a very good player from 1978-1980. That's really better than anything Mookie or Dykstra ever did over their
Mets careers.

by Alex Nelson on May 21, 2006 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions