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Personally

I’d let him battle for a starting spot in spring training. And make it a real battle this time, not like the farce of 2006 where Heilman dominated that spring, but the Mets decided that Juan freaking Padilla’s injury necessitated moving Heilman back to the bullpen.

The guy’s trade value is too low now to move him. And I think his years of being willing to pitch out of the pen despite never receiving a real opportunity to start require the Mets to at least give him a shot this time around.

by ams258 on Nov 20, 2008 11:31 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed

I’m firmly on the “let him try out for the 5th spot instead of just dumping him for someone else’s garbage” bandwagon.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 20, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Water is wet

Heilman has wanted to get back into the rotation all along. I agree with the “open auditions in spring training” idea. If you pencil in Santana-Pelfrey-Maine 1-2-3 and then 4 is a FA signing or trade acquisition, I don’t see anything wrong with letting Heilman and Niese and whoever else is a possibility (Parnell, Jose Sanchez, Tony Armas, Brandon Knight, Dillon Gee, Nelson Figueroa, whoever is in the system) fight it out for the fifth spot.

by JoshNY on Nov 20, 2008 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

I don't agree

He doesn’t have enough pitches to be anything more than an average at best fifth starter, he is 30 years old making a fair amount of money and has pitched a ton of innings and has as much bad karma attached to him as any Met since I don’t know Vince Coleman???. The fans hate him and with the exception of 2/3rds of the 2006 season and maybe one other year that I am forgetting, he has been nothing more than an average bullpen pitcher. The sad truth is that the Mets should have traded him two years ago when his value was its highest. He is also rather selfish and it is strange to me that he failed to disclose his supposed leg injury until the season was almost over. If we can get a decent Grade B type prospect for him, I’ll deal him. Otherwise, I really would prefer he not even make the roster.
Am I overstating it? Probably. But the guy just has become a symbol of the Met’s demise the last two years, fairly or unfair. and some people(not me but many others) will never forgive him for Molinia’s home run in 2006. I say cut bait.

by Endys Game on Nov 20, 2008 3:28 PM EST reply actions  

Isn’t playing through pain normally considered to be a positive characteristic? And he didn’t “fail to disclose” the injury; the team knew about it all along. He didn’t publicize it because he didn’t want to make excuses; Jerry eventually let the word slip to take some of the heat off Aaron.

He’s selfish? Yes, he selfishly pitched while injured because the team needed him. What an asshole.

by JoshNY on Nov 20, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

He has three pitches

4, if you count the curve but I imagine that was beaten out of him. Which is about as many as Maine and Ollie threw last year according fangraphs.

by Gina on Nov 20, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

What if he sucks

in Spring Training in the “open audition.” Then what? Right now I think there’s still a few teams out there who think he can be a valuable starter or reliever if he gets out of NY, but if we keep giving him more rope to hang himself with, it’s only gonna kill what little trade value has left. I think he’s done in NY…the look on his face in his last few appearances said it all. I’ve seen that look on relievers before, and no matter what their metrics, none of them ever bounced back with the Mets or the Yankees.

by cjmulrain on Nov 20, 2008 3:47 PM EST reply actions  

I guess the question is:

can he possibly pitch any worse in spring training than he did for most of this season?

Maybe the benefit is having a healthy Heilman show up at spring training and, if he pitches well, Omar can swing a better deal at that time. I really don’t know. But my gut (for what that’s worth) tells me that trading him at his absolute nadir makes no sense and, if things can’t get any worse, the team might as well wait and see if things can get just a little bit better before pulling the trigger on a deal.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 20, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Count me in

With the teams that believe Heilman is a starter. We have a big need at starter. So what if he doesn’t make it? Then maybe, he returns to being a good reliever or gets stretched out at Buffalo.
I don’t believe
1. His value will get lower, it can only improve, he’s a much better pitcher than his ERA last year suggests.
2. He will flop as a starter, I think he’s serviceable 4 with upside
3. We trade away a need
4. Omar agrees with any of this

by Sam Page on Nov 20, 2008 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

wait

the selfish part was about him insisting that he be a starter. There is zero data that suggests he can be an effective starter in the major leagues. he was somewhat effective in the bullpen in previous years and very good in 2006. But I fear that was maybe a fluke.
I don;t recall that the team knew all along about his injury. In fact, I recall Manuel being taken aback by it. But I admit that could have been posturing on his part or it could be my memory is faulty. And no, I don’t think that insisting on pitching through pain is a positive characteristic if you are not pitching effiectivly. I consider that to be sort of a macho thing that players do that actually hurts the team. Looper did the same thing in 2005 as you may recall.

by Endys Game on Nov 20, 2008 3:50 PM EST reply actions  

There is zero data that suggests he can be an effective starter in the major leagues.

Compared to?
He did throw this gem, along with a few other nice starts that year: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN200504150.shtml
Interesting game. Looks like Piazza beat up Beckett and the only two Marlins to reach base against Heilman were Castillo and Easley. Woo.

Who's world is it? It's yours.

by BlackOps on Nov 20, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think

there’sreally any great choice here. His value, at least in my opinion, is too low to trade him now without getting robbed in a deal, but it’s hard to imagine he’s going to be able to turn things around here with the way fans react to him. He could throw 15 scoreless innings and as soon as he blows a hold or gives up a long ball the boos will start raining in. Really I think the Mets front office just completely botched this whole thing. His starts from after he went back to his college arm slotting were much much better than the ones before, they either should have been allowed to start or they should have sold high on him when teams still valued him, more so than they do now, as a starter.

by Gina on Nov 20, 2008 4:30 PM EST reply actions  

heil man!

i say let him go. he’s a two-pitch pitcher at best. don’t you think, in all these years he’s spent as a member of the met organization, SOMEONE has tried to teach him a third pitch? and, if’in that’s the case, don’t you think we would have seen some signs of progress in developing it? The fact that he has a devastating change-up and fringe-average fastball does not — in my opinion — necessitate giving him a chance to start games. Two-pitch pitchers are relievers, and if he’s not happy with that, let’s cut ties and trade him. i’m sure he can be packaged with a lower-level prospect for another reliever (maybe huston street — whom colorado seems willing to spin off?) or traded straight up for a a b-level prospect (i’m looking in your general direction, oakland).

by goth brooks on Nov 20, 2008 7:03 PM EST reply actions  

Heilman

He threw 3 pitches last year. He’s always had a slider, he just doesn’t usually need to use it as often pitching as a reliever. And two pitches is about how many pitches Ollie threw last year, and Maine threw about the same percentage of different types of pitches as Heilman did, although obviously Maine threw a lot more total pitches.

by Gina on Nov 20, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Heilman...C-ya.

Every time that guy came to the mound, tell me. Was there not a collective groan from the crowd?

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 20, 2008 9:09 PM EST reply actions  

no

but it seemed to destroy his confidence last year (well, either the booing or the fact that he couldn’t get through a scoreless inning), and once a pitchers confidence is gone, it’s all over. I think Heilman is talented enough to be a decent pitcher, but I think he needs a change of scenery for that to happen.

by cjmulrain on Nov 21, 2008 7:05 AM EST up reply actions  

to JoshNY

uh…people tend “not” to boo when a player is performing well and/or is good.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 21, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Philadelphia does not count...

…in anything.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 22, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

he's good...BUT

he’s unclutch.

I seem to remember quite a lot of Amazin bloggers “groaning” via written message whenever Heilman came into a game.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 22, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Please tell me the A-Rod "unclutch" comment is a joke

What with it being hard to gauge someone’s tone from plain text.

Heils was groan-worthy this year, but I think the greater fact still stands that booing alone is hardly a reliable indicator of a player’s worth. To look to another player, I think Adam Dunn gets booed pretty hard by Cincinnati fans. Philly is obviously an extreme example, but those guys booed Mike Schmidt about as hard as any other player. You’re just gonna have to come up with a better metric, Lou.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 22, 2008 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

i was trying my "deadpan" approach. yes, intonation is hard to discern in a written format.

A-Rod’s “post-season” stats for both the Mariners and Yanks look pretty lean to me. Isn’t a man of his stature and salary supposed to be a little better than that in the post season?

I digress…

Let me get back to the crux of my statement. SOMEONE twisted my word (groan) into (booing).

The collective groans are an aphorism of Heilman’s results from late ‘07 through this year. I think that they’re warranted. How many times did this entire blogging community stress, swear and cry after his performances this year? Many.

I don’t want my comment to get “spun” into something that it isn’t. I didn’t use the word “boo”. I used the word “groan”. I should have paid more attention to the ‘reply’ posts in this portion of the blog.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 23, 2008 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, actually . . .

You started with “groan” but switched to “boo” in your response to Josh above. But the word itself isn’t the point. The point is that crowd reaction, whether boos, groans, whistling, etc., is no way to judge a player’s value.

Although I hate to defend A-Rod, and not that I was necessarily referring to the post-season, the guy’s post-season numbers have veered between sublime and ignoble over the course of his career. I’d say he’s inconsistent in October.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 23, 2008 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes...I used groan and then stupidly consented to "boo"

So, by your rational, the fans outward gestures towards players (in whatever fashion) does not support – to any extent – the player’s performance and/or value. I’m beginning to wonder; “Has cause and effect lost its cache’?”

Perhaps opining on this blog isn’t a worthy metric, by the bloggers, of determining a player’s performance and/or value.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 23, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

The reaction of a team’s fans towards a specific player is not a reliable indicator of that player’s worth when there are, you know, objective statistics available.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 23, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The complete judgement of a player based on objective stats seems somewhat subjective, no?

Ah yes! Stats: I guess that means Heilman is pretty lousy. His stats are lousy, hence, he must be lousy. The fans “groan”. They don’t groan because his stats are good.

Hustle? Grit? Clutchness? My king! Do they count for nothing?

It’s a good thing that players celebrate at the plate after a walk-off home run and don’t just humbly meander to the dugout and say: "Hey skip, I’m so excited! I just increased my number of HR’s! Oh man! My stats will be so great now! I’m just giddy because of my stats!

This horse has been beaten enough I think.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 23, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for declaring this thread over

Because I’m not sure you’re ever gonna get the point I’ve been trying to make.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 23, 2008 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Excuse me

But my portion of the thread wasn’t established to make YOUR point. Since when do you have a monopoly on making points? Are you only right? Are you never wrong? Can you not step back for a moment and think: “Hmmm, perhaps he has a point?”

I was making a simple observation about how fans were reacting to seeing his entrance into the game. I NEVER SAID FANS WERE RIGHT. I simply stated that fans had simply had enough of watching this guy come into the ballgame because of his poor performance throughout the year. If fans are exasperated (like I am, trying to explain myself) they are well within their right to “groan”

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 23, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure they are

But the point remains that fans groaning is entirely irrelevant when it comes to determining a player’s value. Fans loved Joe McEwing, didn’t make him a good player.

by JoshNY on Nov 23, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

We disagree, is all.

I have been maintaining that fan reaction is not an accurate way to judge a player’s value. You seem to contend that it is (or can be). Fair enough. The fan’s right to groan or boo or whatever is not an issue.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 23, 2008 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

the end

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 23, 2008 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with Lou

The guy couldn’t pitch a scorless INNING, what makes anybody think he can handle 5 or 6 innings?

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Nov 21, 2008 6:46 AM EST up reply actions  

well, like we've mentioned

the fact that he was injured last year

by JoshNY on Nov 21, 2008 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm all for giving him a shot at the rotation

But the fact is that I’m sick of him. To be honest, I’ve been sick of him for several years. He had a pretty good year in ‘05, and an even better one in ’06, but even then he wasn’t dependable when it mattered. And he may have been hurt last year, but I don’t think that excuses how awful he was at times. I agree with sireric that making him a starter would probably be maximizing the damage.

"I just want to thank you for being such a goddam prince, that's all." - Holden Caulfield

by Prince on Nov 21, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

"he wasn't dependable when it mattered"

Aaron Heilman in September 2006: 12.6 IP, 1.42 ERA, 10 K, 6 H, 1 BB
Aaron Heilman in the 2006 postseason: 7.3 IP, 3.68 ERA, 6 K, 7 H, 1 BB
Aaron Heilman in September 2007*: 17.6 IP, 2.04 ERA, 14 K, 10 H, 5 BB

Yes, yes, I know, he gave up the HR to Molina in game 7 of the NLCS. Making a generalization that he “can’t get it done when it counts” or whatever based on that is as stupid as deciding Beltran isn’t clutch because he struck out to end that game.

*When everyone else except Wright was falling apart.

by JoshNY on Nov 21, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

injury

hmmm…if someone is injured, why are they playing? especially pitchers? so much goes into pitching, from legs, torso to the all important arm. if one thing is wrong, usually a pitcher will compensate to reduce the stress on the injured portion of the body.

result? poor mechanics, lousy pitching and possibly even worse, aggravating the primary injury and/or sustaining another injury in the process. if these guys are hurting to the point where they are a liability to the team, then sit them the hell down until they’re healthy.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 21, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know

I think it was pretty apparent that Heilman’s injury was affecting his performance (even without considering the possibility of aggravating the injury or causing a new one) and I agree with you that it didn’t make a whole lot of sense to keep running him out there. I guess the problem was, once Wagner went down, the Mets were really in “all hands on deck” mode (I mean, seriously, look at the collection of unready prospects and retreads who pitched for the Mets this year) and decided that Heilman at 70% (or whatever he was at) was a better option than Jose Santiago (to pick a New Orleans reliever out of a hat) at 100%.

by JoshNY on Nov 21, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

i hear ya

i remember watching the game in which (hell, can’t even remember the guy’s name – the RP the METS picked up from the Nats…Ayala?) …Anyway, I remember him pitching w/the pulled groin. Gutsy? You betcha! Did he get the save? You betcha! (Uh oh…Palin alert!) …but damn, it sure was scary.

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 21, 2008 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Ignore his request

Pray he pitches well and recoups some of his value. If he pitches poorly, then cut him.

"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-

by future on Nov 20, 2008 11:28 PM EST reply actions  

Shop him

I’ve long thought he got shafted and that he could be a legit #4 or even #3 starter. But, I think he needs to start fresh elsewhere nearly as much as the Mets need fresh bullpen arms. If the Mets can trade him — I suspect there are teams out there that would be much more willing to give him a starter’s spot — in return for some quality relief, or maybe use him to sweeten a package that includes Castillo (please!), then that would probably be best for both parties.

by TomDC on Nov 21, 2008 9:05 AM EST reply actions  

He hasn't really

been given a big chance to start at the major league level. Everyone wants to write him off after basically 134 poor IP as a starter.

Look at his college and minor league numbers as a starter – not bad.

by James Kannengieser on Nov 21, 2008 12:28 PM EST reply actions  

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