Raul Ibanez: What Am I Missing?

by Eric Simon on Nov 21, 2008 2:52 PM EST in Commentary Comment 40 comments

Per Jayson Stark, the Mets are among a handful of teams who are interested in ::holds back vomit:: free agent left fielder Raul Ibanez. Why are so many teams so interested in Ibanez when he clearly isn't a very interesting player? One team official clues us in:

"Character. Proven run producer. In better shape than a lot of 25-year-olds. And he'll play hard every day, every game, every second he has the uniform on."

That quote didn't come affixed with any emoticons, editorial assides or anything else that might otherwise indicate its tongue-in-cheek intent, so I'm going to assume that the "team official" was being serious. It is now apparently clear why I'm writing a blog instead of being involved in front office decision-making for a big league club. When evaluating available talent, real live actual major league executives (at least one, anyway) look for the following, which I will cleverly refer to as "The Fantastic Four":

Character
Proven run producer
In better shape than a lot of 25-year-olds
Plays hard every day, every game, every second he has the uniform on

That's the secret formula, people. Not power, discipline, defense and base-running. Character > talent; playing hard > playing well. Here is my four-reason retort to why the Mets should stay away from Ibanez this offseason. The "Craptastic Four", if you will:

He is a terrible defensive player.
He will be 37 in 2009.
He is a Type A free agent. Type. A.
Given equivalent playing time, he's probably not any better than Fernando Tatis, whom the Mets already have.

Ibanez is far from an awful hitter, but he is the very ~~epitomy~~ epitome of an awful fielder, and he will be expensive (in money and picks) and old, playing a position where offense is relatively easy to find (see: Tatis). Do. Not. Want. (DNW!)

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Same here

I just don’t get the whole Ibanez thing either, same thing with Thole. Mets fans confuse me.

by Sokojoe on Nov 21, 2008 3:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

What part of "Thole" don't you understand?

The love or the hate?

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 21, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The link in his name

is a mets fans top 30 prospects, no Thole. I kind of get the hate, no power, bad defense, though I’m a huge supporter of his. So, I guess it’s the indifference I don’t understand.

by Sokojoe on Nov 21, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ah

I have big hope for him but I can also see the downsides. I suppose that helps.

Anyway, he is on that dude’s list at #9, one behind Reese Havens. Here’s the entry:

9. Josh Thole C/1B

High average, high OBP catcher who hits from the left side, only thing people question is his defense. Is tearing up the AFL, a very good sign for someone who played high A in the regular season. Booked for Binghamton in 2009.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 21, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh thanks man

I withdraw that example

by Sokojoe on Nov 21, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ditto

Loves me some Thole.

by Eric Simon on Nov 21, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"E-P-I-T-O-M-E"

Don’t feel bad, I’ve made the same mistake in the past.

by JoshNY on Nov 21, 2008 3:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ack

Wow. That’s bad. Corrected, with embarrassing strike-through.

by Eric Simon on Nov 21, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Number 4

Is the most important thing in my mind, we’ll likely get the same production from Tatis or some sort of super platoon of Tatis/Murphy/Evans/Endy. But for some reason a lot of fans seem to be convinced Tatis, or a platoon isn’t good enough and that Ibanez would be a significantly better option. I really don’t understand.

by Gina on Nov 21, 2008 3:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

Who's world is it? It's yours.

by BlackOps on Nov 21, 2008 3:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

But Omar's not going to look at stats

And apparently “stats” includes numbers like “age.”

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on Nov 21, 2008 3:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Omar = Willie?

Oh, no, wait. Willie paid close attention to age. Older = better.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 21, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I've got a 5th "fantastic four" reason why the Mets would sign him

He was born in NY!!!1 (OK, he went to High School in Miami). He’s a New York kind of guy!!!111 He’ll thrive here just like a certain shit-for-brains manager and a certain shit-for-brains, steroid-popping, wife-cheating catcher who were New York kind of guys!!!!1111

We need more of these tough New York types instead of guys from Virginia, the DR, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, or Kansas. Sign him up!!!!111$#^W

Vote change: DePodesta/Acta in 2009!!!

by Greenpoint Ian on Nov 21, 2008 3:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

DEE-FENCE

Ibanez terrifies me. His defense is so bad I don’t care how many runs he drives in. Tatis/Murphy will provide the same offense anyhow. So unless Murphy is going to play 2B, this guy better not come anywhere near the 2009 Mets.

by whynot on Nov 21, 2008 5:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THIS IS HOLY!

WHY ARE WE (THE METS) TALKING ABOUT LEFT FIELDERS? EVERY OUNCE OF ENERGY (BRAIN POWER) NEEDS TO BE EXPENDED ON RELIEF PITCHING!

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 21, 2008 8:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

dammit..."replace 'this' w/'that'

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 21, 2008 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You'd want to ask Omar, I suppose

If the front office (or whoever) keeps bringing guys like Ibanez up in the media, we might as well talk about it.

'Catsmeat!' he cried. 'I see it all. It was that chump, Catsmeat.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 21, 2008 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I suppose you're right

Grist for the proverbial mill.

“Me no likey Ibanez.”

" Don't expect any gifts this Christmas. My money is tied up in the bailout. "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Nov 22, 2008 9:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

thank you

for posting the troof

by Sam Page on Nov 21, 2008 8:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I was about to compare this to the Alou signing

but there’s 2 differences, one a credit and one a debit on Inabez. First, he’s much more durable than Alou. He’s played in 162, 159, 149, and 162 games over the past 4 years. But, he’s also far less of a hitter. Career OPS+ 113 vs. Alou’s 128, and in Alou’s last 3 seasons before coming to the Mets he put up 138, 132, & 138. Ibanez’s last 3 years: 125, 121, 124. Good, but not as good as Alou. If he were 33 instead of 37, I’d be ok with it, but as it is, pass.

by cjmulrain on Nov 22, 2008 11:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I don't really agree

Look at the guys at the top of that list. David DeJesus, Brandon Boggs, Matt Joyce, Ben Francisco. Would anyone have any interest in acquiring those guys? Better offensive players like Dunn, Soriano, and Manny are in the middle, closer to Ibanez. Ibanez may be something of a liability on D, but the Mets don’t need a spectacular LF. He’d be playing next to a guy who just won his third straight Gold Glove.

Also, he turns 37 next June. Does that really matter? People didn’t care when Alou signed a 2-year deal, but Ibanez guarantees you something Alou doesn’t: playing time. He’s averaged 612 at-bats over the last four years. I daresay that’s at least in the top ten in MLB. So I wouldn’t have a problem with acquiring Ibanez.

"I just want to thank you for being such a goddam prince, that's all." - Holden Caulfield

by Prince on Nov 22, 2008 1:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I would take DeJesus before Ibanez

by DoctorK16 on Nov 22, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

DeJesus

Is a considerably better player than Ibanez, and much younger. I would actually like DeJesus in left. 5 less points of OPS+ last year, but a 26 play defensive difference by Dewan’s +/- system.

by yellomellojello on Nov 22, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Myself too

as well as Francisco, and we could get him for pennies compared to Ibanez.

Who's world is it? It's yours.

by BlackOps on Nov 23, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd still rather have Dunn

His fielding is pretty close to average per that BtB analysis, and I have no idea how they come up with 12 more batting runs for Ibanez than Dunn considering Dunn’s not-insignificant edges in OBP than SLG – is it just based on the difference between the two leagues?

Plus Dunn is eight years younger and also very durable; he hasn’t played fewer than 152 games in any of the last five seasons. I’d be thrilled to pencil .247/.381/.518 (his career line) and 40 HR (each of the past four seasons) into LF for us next year and 1B the following three. (Mets LF in 2008: .273/.334/.396, 10 HR; Mets 1B in 2008: .273/.348/.497, 35 HR) Unless you’re fixated on batting average, that’s excellent.

(I apologize; I know this thread was about Ibanez, and I know there isn’t any word that the Mets are interested in Dunn, I just got carried away.)

by JoshNY on Nov 22, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention

Conceivably Dunn could move to first base in 2010 so he would be filling more than one whole. I really don’t understand why we seem to be showing significant interest in Ibanez and none in Dunn. Even if Dunn’s asking price is significantly more for some reason I would think it makes sense since he’d fill a future hole we currently have no options for either, and if you’ve seen the 2010 expected FA first base list he’s far and away a better option.

by Gina on Nov 22, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yay on Dunn

I can’t understand why the Mets seem to have no interest in Dunn. He’s younger than Ibanez, better both offensively and defensively, and won’t cost us much more.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 22, 2008 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Omar has made it clear

he doesn’t like nonathletic masher types.

by DoctorK16 on Nov 23, 2008 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Which is silly.

by Gina on Nov 23, 2008 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

True

What GM could be short-sighted enough to over look a guaranteed 40-homer bat in the middle of his lineup? Well, ours for one.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 24, 2008 12:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dunn

isn’t any more “nonathletic” than Tatis or Ibanez or Delgado or Alou

by JoshNY on Nov 24, 2008 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh

I guess DeJesus isn’t that bad. : /

"I just want to thank you for being such a goddam prince, that's all." - Holden Caulfield

by Prince on Nov 24, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

DeJesus

No, he’s really not that bad. It’s amazing what playing in KC will do for anonymity. Baseball’s version of the Witness Protection Program.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 25, 2008 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dunn's a historically awful fielder. One year of decent fielding by one metric shouldn't change that view.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 25, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ok, fair enough

but I can’t imagine he’s any more awful than the hodgepodge of converted infielders the Mets had in left for most of last season (except for Endy Chavez obviously).

what I can’t figure out is, how does Ibanez score so much better offensively than Dunn by that metric?

by JoshNY on Nov 25, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dunn's stints in AZ and CIN weren't combined, because he played a different primary position each place

He’s about 30 RAR overall, while Ibanez is at 24.

Offensively, Dunn’s at 44 (32 and 12) while Ibanez is at 44 runs. Ibanez catches Dunn’s raw advantage in OBP and SLG by having 50 more plate appearances, playing in the AL, and not playing home games in Cincinnati’s home park.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 25, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I could watch that picture of Ibanez throwing the ball into the ground 100 times in a row and it would never get any less funny.

by JoshNY on Nov 22, 2008 4:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

THANKYOU!

Thanks for posting this. the bad defense has been really on my mind, and didn’t think he was really worth losing a prospect or all the money. Not only do we have Tatis, but I would love to see Pagan get a chance. He’s still 27ish, and showed he could really take over the position before he got hurt.

by attgig on Nov 28, 2008 7:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Please take Ibanez!

signed, The Mariners

by JMKaustin on Dec 2, 2008 10:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I don't understand it???

Why would any one consider Ibanez who costs draft picks when theres: Burrel, Dunn and Abreu who are better players and won’t cost draft picks and are only slightly more expensive?
On a lighter note the clip of Ibanez throwing the ball into the dirt nearly made me cry!

by Ohpityme on Dec 6, 2008 8:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs