Mets Make Offer To Lowe

by Eric Simon on Dec 30, 2008 11:56 PM EST Comment 91 comments

Per Mets.com (and corroborated by the New York Times, the Mets have reportedly extended an offer to Derek Lowe for three years and $36 million.

The Times article mentions that Lowe was seeking a five-year, $90 million deal, so don't be surprised to see this one drag on a while. This isn't an especially strong offer from the Mets, so count on agent Scott Boras coming back with what lawyers like to call a "counteroffer" in the neighborhood of four years and $64 million. I can see this one settling in around 3/$45 with a vesting option or even 4/$60. Four guaranteed years is a lot for a pitcher who will be 36 this season, so an option of some sort would clearly be the preference for the Mets.

Marty Noble predicted the Mets would make offers to two of Lowe, Oliver Perez and possibly Randy Wolf this week.

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I actually would be surprised if this dragged on

What other team has expressed interest in Lowe? I believe the Mets will have to up their offer a bit but there is no competition. Plus, this isn’t a typical Bora’s winter, reports from yesterday have him crawling back to the Dodgers regarding Man-Ram.

by Sokojoe on Dec 31, 2008 9:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

DLowe

It’s certainly starting to have that inevitable feel. There aren’t any other suitors, and Omar knows it. He always seems to thrive in these situations. Except when Luis hypnotizes him. Hate that.

Between Putz, CC, Tex and now maybe Lowe, the NY paper headline writers are having an excellent off season.

Happy New Year Eric and everybody here. Thanks for providing such a great forum.

by whynot on Dec 31, 2008 11:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

“Can-gini”. Not baseball related, but still a great headline.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 31, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a bit split on Lowe

His stats are deceiving because he had a 2.30 ERA at Dodger Stadium last year. He pitched 120 innings there last year and 211 innings total. He had a 3.24 ERA overall, so his ERA away from DS was about 4.38, according to my math.

That said, he has pitched around 200 innings.

Shea was a pitcher’s, especially groundball pitcher’s park, so if Citi plays the same way I guess that’s a factor in favor of Lowe.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 11:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Close

4.42 ERA away from Chavez last season.

'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 31, 2008 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why does that make his stats "deceiving"?

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Dec 31, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Derek Lowe, 2007:

Home ERA: 3.51
Away ERA: 4.19

2006
Home ERA: 3.18
Away ERA: 4.13

2005
Home ERA: 3.74
Away ERA: 3.48

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lowe's a pretty extreme groundball pitcher

I’m not really sure how much his park could have helped him. I’d be more worried about our infield defense, especially the right side, with an extreme ground baller.

by Gina on Dec 31, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The park obviously DID help him, though...just look at the numbers

It wasn’t just 2008, either (look at Mets Tailgate’s stats lines)

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Umm not exactly

First off, most pitchers do better at home, regardless of park. In 2008, the ML ERA’s at home and away were:

Home: 4.08
Away: 4.58

So Lowe’s numbers from 2005-2008 aren’t that ridiculous.

Second, he was better on the road in 2005 and it was pretty close in 2007. This stuff should be looked at in the long run, not short run (i.e. 1 season).

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That doesn't make any sense at all

1) How can road ERA be always higher than home ERA? It has to even out, one would think.

2) In terms of excess of road ERA to home ERA:

2008 – almost 2
2007 – .7 runs
2006 – 1 run
2005 – (.26 runs)

That’s a meaningful difference, IMO. AND Lowe played in a joke of a division (that has many other pitchers’ parks in it, i.e. Petco AND PacBell)

You take a look at Pettitte. Sure he had a higher ERA but the defense behind him was subpar, he played in a tough division, etc, etc. And yet the Yankees dont want to give Pettitte more than 10M for a 1 year deal!

…OK that’s not as bad as last year. But still

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm saying across the entire league, home ERA will usually be better than road ERA

Ever heard of the concept of “home field advantage?”

FWIW, here are the FIP+’s of various pitchers in 2008 (park and league adjusted FIP):

Lowe – 132
Brandon Webb – 136
Dan Haren – 150
Jake Peavy – 111
Johan Santana – 121
Cole Hamels – 120
Ryan Dempster – 124
Tim Lincecum – 158

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let him see Pettitte too

118

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Dec 31, 2008 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Look I don't know what FIP is

Can you define home field advantage and what’s behind it? I sure as heck can’t…seems like B.S. to me.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Without going into it too deeply

FIP is a better predictor of future performance than ERA.

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

says who? you?

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Says almost everyone who knows what it is

It’s Fielding Independent Pitching. Gets rid of some of the statistical clutter of ERA.
How is home field advantage BS? Players tend to play better at home than on the road. Simple.

by Joamiq on Dec 31, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

re:

“says who? you?”

Best counter-argument of the year. Just qualified for that title, nice job halflink

by Sokojoe on Dec 31, 2008 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Home and Road ERA's for all of MLB:

Home 2008 – 4.08
Away 2008 – 4.58

Home 2007 – 4.29
Away 2007 – 4.66

Home 2006 – 4.32
Away 2006 – 4.75

Home 2005 – 4.10
Away 2005 – 4.49

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

because, if Citi isn't as much of a pitcher's park as Dodger Stadium,

you think you’re getting a 3.50-4.00 ERA pitcher but you’re actually getting a 4.50-5.00ERA pitcher.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 12:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I promise that won't happen

Most everyone pitches better at home. Dodger Stadium actually played groundballs just as well as Shea. So unless you know something about Citi we don’t, I doubt there will be a big adjustment.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Dec 31, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am just saying that Lowe is not anything special

He does not deserve a lot of money.

In fact, he will probably be a relatively expensive, 3rd or 4th of the rotation starter. That’s why I think even if the Mets sign him for 3/36 they are not getting a steal, not even close.

I mean, if one really wants to turn things around, is there any gaurantee that Lowe over the next 3 years will be better than Heilman, were Heilman given a starting job?

Minaya, for example, instead of doing the Putz deal, could’ve just signed someone like Fuentes in addition to Rodriguez. That would’ve been a cheaper solution, i.e.:

Fuentes – $8M (just throwing out a number; I think it’s reasonable)
Heilman – $2M or whatever it is
Chavez – also about $2M
etc

vs, the current scenario:

Putz – $5M
Lowe – $13M

Plus Fuentes is a more reliable guy, not an injury risk, etc. And you didn’t have to give up Joe Smith, etc, etc.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

come to think of it, the Putz deal was downright stupid

especially with the depressed price of free agency relievers ie Kerry Wood, Fuentes, whoever else.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey halflink123

It seems like your pretty set in your opinion, which is fine, to each his own. Take a look at the article in this link which values Lowe at $19 million next year just to see an opposing point of view.

by Sokojoe on Dec 31, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am not set in my opinion, I just haven't seen any facts to counteract it

I glanced over the article, I might look at it more in depth, but it appears to take Lowe’s ERA at face value. But I’ll look at it later.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually he uses tERA*

Which is park neutral.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Dec 31, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yes I have no idea what tERA is either and I bet noone on this board does

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Umm I bet a lot of people on this board do...

Myself included

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Umm I bet a lot of people on this board know what it is...

myself included.

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well then please explain what it means

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Here you go

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/11/9/657217/tra-explained-sans-numbers

by Joamiq on Dec 31, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Guarantee?

Heck, there are no guarantees in anything, really. Lowe could slip on a bar of soap tomorrow; Heilman could start throwing fastballs like his name was Henry Rowengartner. But depending on Lowe over three years seems like a damn sight better solution than hoping Heilman discovers some heretofore unseen ability as a starter. 3/36 would be a great deal for Lowe, although it’s not likely where it’ll end up.

I think it’s a bit harsh to label the Putz deal as “downright stupid” when it results in getting back one, maybe two, effective arms out of the pen and cost very little, as much as I like Endy and Joe Smith, in major league talent. There are injury concerns, to be sure, but I think the potential reward far outweighs the risk in that deal.

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 31, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Heilman has a 3.86 minor league ERA in 400 minor league IP's as a starter

Do you think he completely forgot how to pitch as a starter?

In addition, even as a reliever he was averaging around 80 or 90 innings a season. He had some good years and I think it’s a bit strange that Minaya chose to trade him in a year when his value is at rock bottom because of his poor year last year.

He can still throw hard and he’s only 30 years old. Lowe is 35.

I mean I find it pretty darn tough to justify the Putz deal. Even if you don’t get Fuentes I’m sure there were cheaper ways to fill the need through Free Agency.

Sign Trevor Hoffman to a 1 year deal, anything. There are lots of options out there and there was no need to rush to do the Putz deal.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh lord

The Heilman virus has reared its ugly head again.

"...We ain't no legend, ain't no cause; We're just livin for today...For those about to rock, we salute you..."

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Dec 31, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Try to put it out of your mind, Lou.

It’s New Year’s Eve. Have a couple pops, make some noise and leave Aaron Heilman discussions for 2009. Plenty of time for all of that tomorrow.

On that note, this is my last comment for 2008. Happy new year’s, y’all!

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 31, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why thank you sir. :-)

Hmmm. My New Years resolution. Not to mention Heilman and not to post silly pictures. Damn…This is gonna be one tough year.

Have a couple of pops? Oh man, I haven’t heard that term since I was south of the Mason Dixon line. :-)

Good luck up there in the big apple! Have fun!

"...We ain't no legend, ain't no cause; We're just livin for today...For those about to rock, we salute you..."

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Dec 31, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No silly pictures?

Then what will you post, Lou?

by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 31, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

second

by Sokojoe on Dec 31, 2008 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sharp fingers BobbyV

Sharp fingers

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 2, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well you are the ones calling the guy a virus

That’s real fair

It was not just Heilman for Putz, remember?

They also gave up Carp, Smith, Chavez, among others.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Heilman's not the virus.

I believe the “Heilman virus” causes sufferers to believe that Heilman was going to be the answer for our rotation. I was willing to give the guy another shot as a starter, but I can’t see how Heilman, even as a starter, is more valuable to us than Putz. Besides, Carp has very limited upside (poor power for a 1B), and was blocked in the organization; Smith is strictly a ROOGY (we’ve got enough specialists already, and Sean Green pretty much replaces him), and Chavez is an offensive black hole. Hell of an outfielder, but the guy can’t hit. The other 3 guys we gave up were organizational filler (Vargas), or too many years away from contributing (the other 2 kids)

by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 31, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Nobody said "Heilman was going to be the answer for our rotation"

or anything of the like. What people said is that Heilman might be effective as a starter and in any case selling low is never a good idea.

by JoshNY on Jan 1, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I put that too strongly.

Yes, Omar sold low, but he still got good value for him.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 1, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe you're right

I should have said “some heretofore unseen ability as a major league starter.” In any event, he’s gone now, whether you, me or anyone else likes it or not. For the record, I was well-entrenched in the “give Heils another shot” camp. However, I did like the Putz deal. I suppose it is debateable as to whether Omar rushed into that deal or not, but if it solves this team’s most glaring weakness from last season then I don’t know how anyone can be too upset about it, especially given the parts used to make the deal. There are/were plenty of options, but I think it still looks like a good trade now and, hopefully, in 10 or 12 months from now.

And if this is a Heils v Lowe comparison, which it appears you are making in your original comment, I think it’s a no-doubter to go with Lowe at $12 million over Heils at $2 million.

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 31, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So you don't think minor league stats are a good predictor of major league performance?

Well then join the bonehead GM club (with all due respect).

Yes the trade maybe “solved” a glaring weakness…at too great an expense to the rest of the club, needlessly, when the FA market would’ve been (and still is) the better solution.

And again it is NOT a Heilman versus Lowe comparison.

You are comparing 2 different things: the trade, and a potential free agent signing and trying to lump them together without making any sense at all.

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

3.86 in the minor leagues?

That’s not very impressive. Anyway, I doubt that you were calling for Heilman to be in the rotation last year.

"When the little children start to speak they once said 'Mama' and 'Papa', but with the fans we got they say the first thing, 'Metsie, Metsie, Metsie'." - Casey Stengel

by Prince on Dec 31, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A few things

1. Fuentes would never sign to be a set-up man
2. I’ll go ahead and guarantee Lowe would be a better starter than Heilman for at least the next two years.
3. Lowe would be the second the best pitcher on our team in its current state.
4. Here’s another link that puts Lowe’s value around 20 mil.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Dec 31, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Mike Pelfrey, 2008

Home: 3.02 ERA
Away: 4.76 ERA

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hooray!

Would be very happy to have Lowe join our team. Until we add a new starting pitcher, we’re still behind from last year. Lowe’s steadiness and consistency would be a great addition!

The 2008 NY Mets: Pedro hurt already. Delgado still sucks. Mets still can't beat the Braves. Beltran only plays 6 innings. WTF with Pelfrey?? Mets win 60 in a row. Freakin' Wagner. PLAYOFFS, NO WAY?!

by ZaBlanc on Dec 31, 2008 1:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Why don't you all go marry Derek Lowe and Omar Minaya

Since you’re all so madly in love with them.

Boy am I glad I’m not a Mets fan…the upper management makes mistakes and misallocates resources year after year and the fans still hang around…amazing.

Thats what puts the “amazing” in them “amazing mets”

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 5:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like you've got a weird personal grudge against Lowe

and are cherry-picking stats to back up your dislike of him. The guy is a solid pitcher. Worth more than the $12 mil a year initially offered to him. I hope he’s pitching for the Mets next year.

by James Kannengieser on Dec 31, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it is not cherry picking

you guys are making up stats with acronyms that you dont explain

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 5:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

They're not making up stats

You just haven’t head of them. Not our fault that you don’t know about advanced stat metrics.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 31, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

2nd highest payroll in baseball and havent made the playoffs in last 2 years

the Mets are a joke

by halflink123 on Dec 31, 2008 5:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Childish insults don't help your credibility

FIP and tRA are statistics that produce a number equivalent to ERA, which isn’t influenced by factors outside of the pitcher’s control. The idea is to determine a pitcher’s true talent. This approach accounts for park factors, proving Lowe’s home/away split was a normal phenomenon and not caused by Dodger Stadium greatly favoring pitchers. We didn’t make these stats up. FIP was developed by Tom Tango, a great baseball statistician. Here’s the formula: FIP=(HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)*3-K*2)/IP

Lowe’s home/road splits are completely normal. Many pitchers have this same split; go look up the pitchers on your favorite team. Lots can happen in the span of 70 innings, the variance of his home/road split throughout the years just proves how arbitrary this distinction is.

I’d encourage you to go back and read that BtBS article Sokojoe linked to. Even if you think Derek Lowe is overrated and not worth 12MM, the vast majority of evidence would disagree with you. No one will think less of you if you admit you were wrong, but no one will take you seriously if you make comments like “marry Omar Minaya.”

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Dec 31, 2008 6:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Patience

Nice of some you to have such patience with such ignorance.

He hasn’t heard of it, therefore it’s not true!!!!

by whynot on Dec 31, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lowe

I think that soon enough here in a few days Lowe will sign with the Mets.

by famos23 on Dec 31, 2008 8:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

did omar21 come back?!

i just read a few of this guy’s posts at AN…comes off just like him, oddly enough.

by gogomets on Jan 2, 2009 3:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I had the same thought

except this guy hates Minaya . . . he’s like Bizarro Omar21.

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 2, 2009 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors

“Free agent right-hander Derek Lowe is "hardly overwhelmed” by the three-year offer of about $36 million the New York Mets have extended him, potentially sending the sides toward a protracted stare-down, the New York Post reported."

How am I supposed to yell and cheer for somebody who thinks an annual salary of twelve million dollars during a recession is disappointing.

by goth brooks on Jan 2, 2009 12:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Meh it's not like the Mets are hurting for money.

by Gina on Jan 2, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ask a yankee fan

by Sokojoe on Jan 2, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Right there with ya goth

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 2, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wouldn't you be pissed if you felt you weren't getting paid what you were worth?

you really need to read up on the business side of this, lou.

by gogomets on Jan 2, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this is true

and when i think i’m due for a raise i make sure to ask for one. but we’re talking about a totally different monetary stratosphere. i love sports. i especially love baseball. but you can’t honestly tell me that there are parallels between them and us when it comes to the desire for economic security.

if i was making an extra five dollars an hour i would be in holy-shit-this-is-easy-street-fucking-amazing joy. and that would mean i was making twenty bucks an hour. you’re talking about a guy who would make slightly over half a million dollars per day for about 20 days’ work.

its a broader frustration than JUST derek lowe, of course. i’m just using him as an example. whether or not he’s WORTH twenty million dollars per year or twelve or even two million dollars a year, to scoff at the kind of money 99% of our country will never catch a whiff of is irksome to me.

by goth brooks on Jan 2, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But would you rather have the money going to the players

or being pocketed by the Wilpons? I mean either way someone is making a crapload of money, I’d have a bigger problem with the Wilpons not being able to part with an extra 2 million than Lowe.

by Gina on Jan 2, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course

If the Wilpons cough up the extra $2 million and then decide that they no longer want to foot that bill themselves, they might turn around and raise ticket/concession prices, which would affect all of us who attend games.

by Eric Simon on Jan 2, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They're doing that anyway

Without raising the payroll, or at least as far as we know there’s no plan to increase the payroll.

by Gina on Jan 2, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

goth, i get you

i just think there is a fundamental difference in how people think about certain topics. you and i seem to agree / understand each other on this one.

perhaps it’s the same difference between political groups, religious groups etc. we’re all made of the same elemental goodies but some of us just think differently. there’s no proving right or wrong, hopefully people will just understand that not everyone thinks the same.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 2, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

gogomets

Sorry man. When I was 21 I was lucky enough (or unlucky enough, depends on how you want to look at it) to go to Olangapo City, Philippines. After exchanging my dollars to pesos the first thing I saw was a 9 year old kid with a bamboo pole mounted across his shoulders with a 3 gallon drum attached to each end by rope. He was coming to one of the few fresh water spigots in town to get water for his family who resided a few miles away.

I’ve seen kids jumping into sewage contaminated waters for dollar bills. I’ve seen people in East Timor down and out waiting on fresh water, food and generators for electricity. I didn’t see this stuff from a t.v. or a newspaper, I’ve seen it first hand and as a person who was born in the land of good and plenty I can appreciate the value of a dollar.

A fair percentage of people in finance, sports, and the entertainment industry truly are living in a different type of reality. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t dare call it reality. Look, I’m not looking for sympathy and I do understand today’s warped idea of “market value”. However, I’ll never get on board anyone’s BS wagon saying a human “deserves this or that amount” or a human is “worth this or that amount” for playing a damn game.

Nothing justifies the bloated pay of any of these athletes. When I think about it, I shouldn’t be blaming the athletes, I should be blaming us, the idiots who pay their salaries. It is we who have forgotten the value of a dollar. I love the game of baseball man, but I don’t like the business side of it. And I sure as hell don’t have to. – Nuff said.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 2, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's not always about the $$$

It’s about ego and “winning.” Lowe and Boras have an idea of what Lowe is worth and they want to get that number. Negotiating, regardless of what your personal negotiating strategy may be, is an adversarial engagement, and you don’t just jump at the first offer. Derek Lowe knows 12MM is a boatload of money, more money than most people will ever see in a lifetime, but this is all part of the “game.”

As for the bloated salaries, it is capitalism at its best (or worst, depending on your point of view.)

by SQUAD on Jan 3, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

seriously?

how was any of that necessary? we’re talking about the business of sports. like it or not, it’s a business, first and foremost. if you don’t like it, i suggest you stop reading this site and simply watch the games on TV. the whining about players getting paid to much is nothing short of naive. with all the money made by owners off these sports, explain to me why the players shouldn’t be getting paid ridiculous amounts of money?

just for shits and giggles, how much do you think derek lowe should be paid?

by gogomets on Jan 3, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

you know what man

this is a blog. no more, no less. people opine here. part of this discussion is about the offer made to Lowe. please, don’t get your panties in a wad. we’re all here discussing what we feel about a particular topic. perhaps, if you don’t like what “I” have to say, you can move along to another thread. this discussion has become a discussion of attrition. no one’s going to win it.

for shits and giggles? $100,000. All tickets and concessions are made affordable and reasonable. I guarantee you people wouldn’t have a problem with taxes to fund a stadium when they know that they don’t have to take out a loan for home plate tickets.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 3, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That $100,000 is for all players. Not just Lowe.

If the players don’t like that. Go find a reputable source of income.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 3, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

gogomets...Let me ask you a question

Is Stephon Marbury worth that much money to do nothing (literally nothing) for the Knicks?

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 4, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't say this, Peter Gammons did

As Major League Baseball has gone from a $1.3 billion to $7 billion industry in a dozen years, attending a baseball game is a luxury item. The cost of living index showed that attending a game at Fenway Park for a family of four — grandstand seats, a few concessions items — was $250, and that didn’t account for the $30 to $50 it costs to park within a 20-minute walk of the self-proclaimed “most beloved ballpark.”

As schools, fire, police and human and social services are slashed, how can taxpayers abide by politicians pumping subsidies into entertainment entities owned by billionaires so they can afford millionaire players?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 4, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

his services are worth more than $12 million dollars a year, recession or no recession

so i don’t begrudge him his whining. plus it’s a lowball offer. i don’t think anyone expected lowe to jump at the offer.

by englishgrey on Jan 2, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Humanity Cannot Bear Too Much Reality

I think that’s TS Elliot. If I’m working at a firm, and I make the company a million + and they offer me a $45K salary when the prevailing average wage is $60K for people far less productive, and I’ve been working there for 14 years, I’d be pissed. The story about the destitute kid with the bucket would apply to me as much as Lowe. (The difference in value between a $2/day wage and a $45K salary is far greater than the difference between the first $45K and the 1st $10M, see the studies that show how after you’re at the 70th or so percentile in American wages, there is no correlation between money and happiness.

I think we should all go the Green Bay way and simply make sports franchises state property. (And I ain’t no Communist; and would not dream of doing it with Health Care.)

by JobiJoba on Jan 2, 2009 11:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

doctors, firemen, police and military

are grossly underpaid.

no person playing a game deserves or is worth this much money. it’s pure stupidity that this is the world we’re living in.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 3, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you've crossed a line here...

How do you determine who “deserves” what? I’m quite uncomfortable saying that someone does or doesn’t deserve whatever it is they’re paid.

I understand all the points you’ve made above, but in the end, if you spend as much as 1 cent on MLB then you’re a bit of a hypocrite.

by SQUAD on Jan 3, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Believe me, I understand where you're coming from

What the players are providing for fans is one thing: An escape. Fans are paying for an escape from their everyday mundane lives. The opportunity cost for some to attend a game is not as high as for others.

Look, I’m not advocating socialism or arguing on behalf of the proletariat. I (personally) have just gotten sick and tired of this idea that a person feels insulted because they weren’t offered; one, two, or ten million more dollars to play a sport. Hey, I love the game that’s being played on the field I just think it’s outrageous that the vast majority of these players are paid these disgusting sums of money.

Dustin Pedroia could have fleeced the Red Sox, but he didn’t. Sure, I know, I know…He’s still making millions. But the sheer idea that $12 million a year isn’t enough just makes me sick.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 4, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

p.s.

what is this line you speak of? i’ve said nothing insulting, racial, hurtful etc. what line are you talking about?

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 4, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The line...

What I meant by this is that I think you have some compelling points, but I won’t go as far to say that someone does or doesn’t deserve something. I’m not comfortable making that call.

I wasn’t offended or anything… by saying you crossed a “line” I was using it to illustrate my point, not to say that what you wrote was offensive. It was a different way of phrasing “this is where you lose me in your argument.”

by SQUAD on Jan 5, 2009 1:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

;-)

no worries!

" Well isn't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere! "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 5, 2009 8:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Stupidity is the name of the game

It’s not Dereck Lowe’s fault that firemen and military people are underpaid. (I would beg to differ about doctors and policemen, pace Mr. Wright Sr.)

Baseball is an $X-million industry, and the market compensates Lowe for his contribution to that industry. I’m not pissed about Lowe’s money. I’m pissed about Fred Wilpon stealing $300M of taxpayer money for Citi-Field. I’m pissed about rampant criminality in the US government. There are a lot of things in this world more outrageous than one of the 50 best pitchers in the world being paid like one of the 50 best pitchers in the world.

by JobiJoba on Jan 3, 2009 3:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i agree on some points

in the end, it’s all futile. i’ll just enjoy the play on the field and try to ignore the insanity of the business side

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 3, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lou is being totally reasonable here, people

It seems as if people think they need to teach him economics, which I find to be a tad condescending. He simply has a different point of view than others on this – doesn’t make it wrong. He’s just expressing how he feels about certain classes of employment earning certain wages. Is there a problem with that? He’s not saying we should do away with MLB. I’m sure that we can all relate to his opinion to some degree. And having issues with the Wilpons making a killing and Lowe making a killing (or the US gov’t making a killing, for that matter) are not mutually exclusive.

And if you want to talk about MLB profits/salaries being justified because it’s just a functioning market, let us not forget the minor detail that it’s a sanctioned monopoly.

by Joamiq on Jan 4, 2009 3:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

It's Sunday. Thank the Lawd! Someone gets it.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 4, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course his point of view is reasonable,

however by belaboring the point it becomes unreasonable, imo, because of the basics of economics. Monopoly or not, MLB still generates a tremendous amount of money and the players are paid accordingly for their services. I actually have a bigger problem with the corporate structure where the salaries of those at the bottom of the corporate food chain are so disproportionate in comparison to those at the top.

Further,I fail to see how the story Lou told about the kids in the Philippines has anything to do with Derek Lowe’s contract negotiations (or MLB for that matter.) Should Derek Lowe just take the first offer he gets because there are some people in parts of the world who live in squalor?

And I don’t mean to make light of the less fortunate, because I agree, we do live in a crazy world. However, if I was Derek Lowe, I would be trying to get every dollar I could so that I would A) Set up my family for life and B) Use my wealth and status to pursue a variety of philanthropic endeavors (and I would bet Lou would do the same thing if he was in Lowe’s position.)

Now I don’t mean to generalize or defend professional athletes, but it’s not like they’re squeezing every last dollar and cent out of the owners so they can have a huge money bin to swim around in. Many of them donate a portion of their wealth to many worthy causes.

by SQUAD on Jan 5, 2009 1:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I Agree With Lou In Spirit

And I’m not pretending to teach him about econ. I’m saying that it’s really not that big a deal that Lowe is getting a ton of money, since most of the world’s problems are unrelated to how much Lowe gets paid. (Also, note that I expressed my preference for the Green Bay model of the city owning the team and the general public reaping the fruits of its’ pastime.)

by JobiJoba on Jan 4, 2009 5:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs