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Around SBN: Terry Collins, David Wright, And The Mets/Brewers Kerfuffle

Arbitration Conversation

Oliver Perez is all set to appear before an arbitration panel today to plead his case that he is worth $6.5 million in 2008, his third year of arbitration eligibility and his last before hitting free agency next offseason. The Mets will counter that Perez, who still walks a lot of batters, had pitched himself out of the big leagues two years ago before the Mets swept in on their gallant steed and whisked him away to New York and into the waiting arms of Rick Peterson. For that, they will say, Perez is only entitled to $4.75 million.

Barring some last-minute miracle, the Mets will approach the arbitration table for the first time in fifteen years. Back in 1992, the Mets couldn't come to terms on a contract with David Cone, so the decision went before arbitration which ultimately ruled in favor of the player. Cone was awarded $4.25 million for the 1992 season, not the $3 million the Mets had countered with.

The Phillies are anxiously awaiting their own arbitration decision, as they were unable to bridge the $3 million gap between theirs and Ryan Howard's figures ($7 million for the Phillies, $10 for Howard). They went to arbitration yesterday morning and a decision is expected today. Despite what this guy thinks, the Phillies weren't going to intentionally tank the hearing. Keith Law explains why spending an extra $3 million on Howard this year would be stupid, even if it bought the team some perceived good will.

Not including Howard's hearing, teams have won all five cases brought to arbitration this year. The job of the arbitrator(s) is to consider all of the evidence and then choose one of the monetary figures presented. There is no middle ground here, no room for negotiation. The haggling took place prior to the hearing; now it's all or nothing. From 1974 through 2006, 468 cases have gone before arbitration and the ballclubs are 269-199, a solid .575 winning percentage. If we include the five known results from this year, the teams are 274-199, a .579 winning percentage). Their Pythagorean record is unknown, but assumed to be pretty solid.

If you ever wondered what an arbitration hearing is like, Jim Salisbury had a nice writeup yesterday at Philly.com about the process. He spoke with a handful of agents and players to find out what happens behind those closed conference room doors.

"It's a very sophisticated baseball debate," the executive said. "From a distance, people believe there is a lot of theatrics. But that's not the case. It's a serious debate."

In the debate, both sides use relative data - statistics, service time, comparable player salaries, special accomplishments - to fuel their arguments. Some agents will argue that their players increase team revenues. Some teams will criticize players about off-field habits.

*snip*

Arbitration hearings last about four hours. Each side gets an hour to present its case and a 30-minute rebuttal. Each hearing has a life of its own.

The Mets obviously hope to retain Perez after this season, though he is represented by Scott Boras so there are no guarantees that anything will be worked out. The likeliest outcome is that Perez will hit free agency and will align himself with the highest bidder. If that team is the Mets so be it, but if Perez turns in a decent season this year I don't think a five-year, $70 million contract is out of the question. Would the Mets go so far? Probably not.

Demoralizing for baseball update: Howard won his case and will earn a first-year arbitration record $10 million in 2008. Barring injuries or a long-term deal, he could make $13 million and $16 million in the next two years, which is basically absurd for someone shy of free agency. Happy day for the Howards.

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Ollie
I'm not too worried about Ollie.  He might get his money, he might not.  He'll still be relatively cheap for a 15 game winning strike out pitcher (assuming that's what he's become for reelz yo).  

I worry about AFTER this season.  If he has another good year, he's going to command a LOT of money.  And the Mets just don't the depth in the upper levels of the minors to replace him that soon, especially with El Duque and Pedro aging.

by Lunkwill Fook on Feb 21, 2008 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

Ryan Howard
I am not sold on a player who struck out 181 times 2006 and 199 times in 2007 (a major league record).  That's a lot even for a power hitter.  Clearly shows he can be pitched to.

by millsy on Feb 21, 2008 12:34 PM EST reply actions  

Howard
He still drove in a LOT of runs.  There's value in that regardless.

by Lunkwill Fook on Feb 21, 2008 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Also
He hit for prodigious power and walked a good deal, even if you account for all of the intentional walks (more than 70 combined over the past two seasons). He is plenty valuable at the plate, though he is a below-average baserunner and defender.

by Eric Simon on Feb 21, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Reminds Me of McGwire
Howard reminds me a lot of Mark McGwire.  If he is going to beat you, it is probably going to be with a homer.  I much prefer more rounded hitters like David Ortiz who can beat you in a lot of different ways.  I also like players who put the ball in play because you can move runners over, etc.  Strikeouts, in my mind, are the worst kind of outs and almost 200 a year is a ton of them.

Now I'd take Howard over Carlos Delgado at this point in their careers but I don't think the guy is worth $10 million a yr, at least not until he gets his strikeouts down.

by millsy on Feb 21, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Strikeouts
I'd rather have a strikeout than a GIDP any day of the week.

by Lunkwill Fook on Feb 21, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

i am sold
why does it matter how many K's he has if his OBP the last 2 seasons has been .425 and .392?

by gogomets on Feb 21, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Answer:
It doesn't, really. For a hitter, a strikeout is only marginally less productive than a groundout or a flyout, and considerably *more* productive (or less unproductive) than a double-play.

by Eric Simon on Feb 21, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

i know that
i wanted the other guy to answer that ;)

by gogomets on Feb 21, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll Bite
Players who strike out that much either swing for the fences a lot or have significant holes in their swing.  Either way it means top level pitchers can generally get them out b/c they can be pitched to.   Contrast that to say a Barry Bonds or Mike Piazza who didn't strike out much but could hit anyone in their primes.  As Met fans know Piazza killed Roger Clemens.  That's why I think the strikeouts matter with Howard but I realize not everyone agress.

by millsy on Feb 21, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

demoralizing for baseball owners maybe
not my money.  howard has more or less earned it, when you consider how nuts the system can be.  and KLaw also pointed out that his body types/skillsets usually falme out by 30, 31.  so he better make his money now.

by kendynamo on Feb 21, 2008 4:43 PM EST reply actions  

of course your right
of course the arbitration baseline has be raised now, so the next elite pre-arb hitter is going to get $$$. Personally I think the arbitration system is bad everyone involved and should be reformed.  
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Feb 21, 2008 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I Agree
The idea that arbitrator can't pick a number in the middle makes no sense to me.

by millsy on Feb 21, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

arbitration
I think there are at least two reasons for this.

The either A OR B format might encourage the parties to negotiate ahead of time to avoid getting an unfavorable judgement.

Forcing a choice prevents teams from making a lowball, Price is Right-style, $1 offer (or players from asking for the moon) and letting the arbitrator pick what he thinks a fair value is.

It's advantageous for teams to offer the most they're comfortable paying because that maximizes the chance that their offer is the one selected. Likewise with players.

by citimetro on Feb 22, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Let Me Rephrase
I wasn't clear above - I am not sold on Howard as an elite player b/c he basically has old player skills as John Sickles calls them.  He is slow, doesn't defend well and strikes out a ton which means he can be pitched to.  $10 million for a 3rd yr player means he probably would get an A-Rod contract at free agency and while I hate A-Rod, Howard is not in the same league as him as a player.  I think Howard is a good to very good player but very one dimensional who probably belongs in the AL as a DH.

by millsy on Feb 21, 2008 6:01 PM EST reply actions  

old player skills
I agree about the "old player skills" -- but it's impossible to deny that he's a very good player right now.  The idea is that young players with old player skills age poorly, and I do think Howard is going to be a textbook case of this: he ought to peak slightly younger, and decline faster, than a typical age curve might suggest.  I like the guy, but with him in the same division as the Mets I have to hope this has predictive value in his case.

by anonymous on Feb 21, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd Take
Howard over Delgado in a heartbeat, strikeouts and all, but I still don't think he is worth $10 million especially this early in his career.  I wonder how much more he makes than Chase Utley, who I believe is the best player on the Phillies.

by millsy on Feb 21, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

That doesn't make sense
Howard will be 28 this year, which is generally considered to be just entering his prime if I'm not mistaken, and he's hit 105 HR over the last two years and remained largely free of steroid allegations because like Frank Thomas he's just always been huge.  If there's ANY point in his career that he's worth $10 million it's now, not when he's 36 like Delgado (who's making on the order of $14 million this year and certainly not worth it in comparison).

PECOTA's 50% projection for him is .273/.381/.574 with 44 HR.  It projects Delgado at .265/.344/.471, 21 HR.  I'd happily pay $10M for Howard.

by Josh @ Amazin' Avenue on Feb 22, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't think of a team
That wouldn't jump at the chance to sign Howard to a 4 year $40 million dollar deal.
If you gonna act like a fool, I'm gonna treat you like a fool....Fool ~Judge Greg T. Mathis~

by sireric @ Amazin' Avenue on Feb 22, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Marlins
Loria: America's best argument for Communism?

by citimetro on Feb 22, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

More like....
An example of capitalism gone wrong.

"What's that you say?  I can spend no money, deliver no product, invest nothing... and make tens of millions of dollars?  SOLD!"

by Lunkwill Fook on Feb 22, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

It's A Matter
of whether or not you think he is worth $7 million or $10 million after 3 yrs.  I agree with Keith Law that $7 million is probably closer to the mark at this point in his career.  The arbitrator disagreed which is probably why I just a fan with an opinion rather than a baseball arbitrator or a baseball talent evaluator.

With regards to Delgado, as much as I like him he is completely overpaid at this point in his career.

by millsy on Feb 23, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

He won....
Ollie won his arbitration case.  I think he's as good as gone after this season.

by Lunkwill Fook on Feb 22, 2008 10:36 AM EST reply actions  

Probably
Here's hoping for another really nice season in his walk year and collecting two draft picks as a consolation if we can't resign him.

by Eric Simon on Feb 22, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately
I think you are right.  Hopefully Ollie will show more consistency this year.  At this point in his career Ollie is a thin Sid Fernandez - a guy with an ace's arm but not consistent enough to be an ace.

by millsy on Feb 23, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

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