Open Thread - Game #19: Mets vs. Cubs (04/22/2008)
by Eric Simon on Apr 22, 2008 1:20 PM EDT
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PrintNew York Mets at Chicago Cubs, Apr 22, 2008 2:20 PM EDT
If Nellie Figueroa is living a dream, watching two-thirds of the Mets' lineup flail away uselessly against all comers is my personal nightmare. The boys in blue look to split their mini-series with the Cubs.
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I heard
Atlanta picked up some decent young 2B off of waivers. Can’t remember his name. Anyone know where we could get a guy like that?
Gotay
Yes, that kid with the .250 BA, .333 SLG, 0 HR, and 6 SO’s in 12 AB’s. Too bad we don’t have him, or we’d be undefeated now.
Let's Go Mets!
12 ABs
Sample size, sample size, sample size. In any case, Gotay would certainly be more cost effective than Luis “Proven Veteran” Castillo.
you should just let him go already
I’m not saying that you’re wrong. Just that you need to let him go. You’re bordering on stalking.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
nobody
is stalking Gotay. Just pointing out he can help us. We’re entitled to evaluate personnel decisions.
evaluate personnel decisions
Thats one thing. Constantly dragging a guy into conversations who hasn’t been a member of the team in a month, is obsessing. You know, like what you do with Milledge.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
obessing
is what fans do. And who brought up Milledge recently other than you. Find another strawman to construct. AMS was pointing out the team could use Gotay.
Sample size
OK, lets talk sample size. How many career AB’s does Gotay
have? 636. His lifetime stats are .258/.314/.374. Castillo in 5535 ABs is .293/.368/.357. In the last 3 years before 2008, Castillo is hitting .299. Give it some time.
Let's Go Mets!
Gotaty has solid enough minor league numbers
.276/.354/..424
Castillo’s career numbers are .293/.368/.357
I agree, Castillo is probably better than Gotay now. But he isn’t the type of player who is likely to age well. He has no power and has to rely on his speed to beat out ground balls. As his knees deteriorate, he’ll lose that speed and decline.
I liked the Castillo trade last year because I thought the Mets would let him go and grab some compensatory draft picks. But they signed him to a long term contract instead. And gave away a solid, young player who they could have kept at a fraction of the cost.
Gotay is nothing special, but I’d rather have him than Castillo if it means the Mets would use the money they’d save to re-sign Ollie Perez or grab Mark Teixeira this offseason.
Delgado
Castillo I have faith will turn things around, even if he looks listless. Delgado though - come on - time to bite a bullet. Injuries took their toll. We need to work on replacing Delgado. We have to go for it all this year, and we can’t let money keep Delgado in the lineup. We can upgrade offensively AND defensively.
Who are the contenders?
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
Money!
A $150 million dollar team with a lineup featuring Casanova, Easley, Clark, Figueroa and Pagan. Weird. :-)
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
TAKE THAT BLANCO! Nice escape act! Too bad Heilman couldn’t et that last out last night. :-/
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
That is also good...
...because if the Cubs had a big inning, I would have started my “Fire Willie” chant. I swear. I was gonna change my screen name and everything.
Over/Under
Runs this lineup scores today: 1.5
I have a tough time coming up with lineup-based questions because the Mets have anything but a set batting order at this point.
Willie's hands are tied...
He’s got Castillo. They signed him. And I think he’ll turn it around…I’ve been impressed with his speed this year. Delgado, though, t’s time to swallow hard on that one. Get a replacement in. It’s 1B, it’s not like yer trying to find a good 2B. Execute a trade. Move a player. Do something! He’s an automatic out with limited range defensively and no speed on the basepaths.
A ZERO TOOL PLAYER.
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
good to see that you've found a new hobby horse to ride
at least for today…
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Apr 22, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you seen the light yet?
Beltran. Needs a single. Two nights ago. Big spot. Didn’t get it done. Add it to the pile. Take a look at your big time players…they get it done from time to time. Our guy never does.
Open your eyes. What has Beltran done this season to prove me wrong?
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
Beltran has...
1. Played consistently great defense in CF
2. Drawn a ton of walks
3. Stolen a couple of bases
Of course, you believe he’s “not clutch” because he “didn’t get a single in a big spot”. Never mind the fact that he’s been an awesome hitter in the playoffs the two times he’s been there. Maybe it doesn’t count because the team didn’t win? I don’t know what your excuse is for not giving him any credit for that.
Are you kidding me?
Josh, read what I write. I never said he was bad defensively. I never made a single comment about the ability to walk or steal. He’s a multi-talented player, weak in NO category.
Except that, in big spots, and even many easy RBI spots, he consistently fails to produce. Look at all the games this year. Find all the situations where he comes up with men in scoring position with less than 2 out. He makes it routine to strikeout or pop up. Look at late inning AB’s with the Mets behind. He fails to produce.
We pay money to goo dplayers. We pay BIG MONEY for Beltran. He is measured differently!
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
Hmm
I guess his inability to produce in RBI situations explains why he’s driven in 116 and 112 runs in the last two seasons.
beltran as unlutch is a myth
look up his WPA from fangrpahs. last year he was the 4th most ‘clutch’ player on the team. this beltran is a choke artist arguments are ridiculous. new topic please.
Beltran's not the only unclutch player in New York
Did you see when A-Rod totally ignored Abreu’s high five the other night? So unclutch!!!
(Courtesy FJM)
get a replacement from where?
Castillo is more usuless than Delgado. Delgago BABIP suggest he’s due for some hits. Castillo can’t even get balls out the infield from the left side and his a good bet to be under 700 OPS. he’s hot garbage
1B
Castillo has defensive skill and speed that can help him get out of the rut. Delgado has deteriorating skills. The slow bat. The hip. The speed. Defensive liability. 2007. That’s the difference.
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
so Castillo skills aren't detriorating
and you still haven’t answered the question of who replaces Delgado. Who still was a 20-90 guy last year in diminished state.
Unclutch Walk
Come on Beltran! Quit clogging the bases!
Momentum is weird
Mets were getting a perfect game pitched against them for the last combined 6.2 innings. Now, three runners in a row.
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
Delgado up with the bases juiced
What type of double-play with he hit into:
a) 6-4-3
b) 4-6-3
c) 3-6-3
d) 1-4-3
e) Some other type of double-play
Beltran
In September last year when everybody else except maybe Wright was mailing it in, he had huge numbers. That and his playoff numbers prove that he is clutch. And I guess this is one of the weeks where Zablanc admits he wants Beltran off the team instead of denying it when he is pressed on the lack of support for his arguments.
Didn't want to win enough
Beltran and Wright don’t know how to win. If they did the Mets would have made the playoffs last year. Duh.
I'll take you up on your offer..
I am researching his big AB’s right now. We’ll see. Maybe you’re right about September, maybe not. I am not trying to prove some idealogical point, I am just pointing out what I’ve seen. Give me 10 mins.
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
what good is anecdotal evidence
when you have empirical evidence?
JUST LOOK UP WPA
NO NEED TO DO LOTS OF RESEARCH – HERE IS LAST YEARS ‘CLUTCH’ NUMBERS
http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Mets&;season=2007
see? all done – beltran is plenty clutch.
jesus christ
delgado. at least it wasn’t a GIDP i guess.
delgado
get the fuck off the field. can we sign frank thomas and release this dope?
delgado
Another quality inning of baseball by Carlos. This guy is truly killing us. I think he’s looked ok at the plate and might come around, but if this is the defense he’s going to provide he has to go. Embarrassing.
sucks for figgy
those last 2 are earned runs because of delgado’s fat ass
So we should sign Frank Thomas instead?
Who hasn’t played in the field since 2004?
Seriously, have you SEEN how many throwing errors Delgado has saved Wright and Reyes over the last couple of years?
I'm pretty sure we can close the book
on the Mets signing Big Hurt. He has played 38 games at 1B since 2001, which is roughly five games per season. Delgado plays every day and his defense is pretty lousy; do you really want Frank Thomas out there?
awesome. he can take 1 step off the bag and grab a throw and tag a runner. that’s the extent of his range. have you SEEN how many ground balls get through to either side of him?
I'm not saying Delgado is a great fielder
But he does at least bring something useful to the table, which is more than you could say about Frank Thomas’ ability to play defense.
you're right
thomas would be a shitty choice. i’m just throwing names out there. last year i tried to be patient with delgado because i thought he wasn’t at 100%, but it’s getting frustrating, y’know?
Delgado/Thomas platoon
Not sure if Thomas would go for it, but our offense would improve against lefties.
Thomas hit .336/.431/.631 against lefties last year.
Delgado hit .267/.318/.386 against last year.
i think he wants to play every day
but i guess if he gets desperate. the thought of those two playing defense is kinda scary though.
does fan graphs
have stats for how many popups each team has? this is purely anecdotal but i’ve never seen a team hit so many popups.
i see FB% but i don't see any breakdown past that
any ideas?
also-i apologize for speaking rudely to you-just so frustrated by delgado
way to have the bullpen mounds in play, wrigley
they should demolish that relic and build a proper stadium. what a joke.
OK, here ya's go...
My assessment:
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2008/4/22/447391/carlos-beltran-clutch-in-s
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
Not bad
So Beltran did something good in 5 out of 12 chances (41.6%). I’d call that pretty good.
Let's Go Mets!
why just 80%?
why not say 100%, since youre asking for something that no one in history has ever come close to doing?
Oh, it's more than just that...
...Carlos should have also hit homers in the first inning in every game. He also should get me a hot dog when I want it.
(I’m having fun with this. Carlos is not the greatest CF/clean-up hitter in the world, but I like having him on the team.)
for the amount of good hes doing us
someone like brady clark SHOULD get fans hot dogs in between innings.
That's some good thinkin'!
Maybe there should be a special ticket plan where you can get hot dogs delivered by un-clutch and below-replacement-level players. I’d sign up for that!
Uhh, yea
I’d call that pretty damned good. Picking up a walk or a hit in more than 40% of the somewhat arbitrarily-chosen examples is outstanding, IMO.
Even better
Actually, there were at least a couple of other good games by Beltran last September.
Look more closely. In the September 1 game, Beltran led off a scoreless game in the second inning with a hit, and came around to score. In the 7th, he led off a tight 3-1 game with a HR. In the 9th, he led off with a triple and scored. Good game against a division opponent. Yes, the Mets "won comfortably", but he played a big role in it.
He missed the 9/7 game, won by the Mets, in which he drove in the go ahead run in the third inning, and hit a homer to extend the lead in the fifth.
On 9/9 Beltran drove in the first two runs, and doubled and scored the third run, in a 4-1 win in Pedro’s first start.
I can go through the rest of the games, but I think somebody’s definition of "clutch" is way too arbitrary.
Let's Go Mets!
I'd say not terrible.
He didn’t get too many glaring chances. He missed on two big ones, but hit on one as well. it was earlier last year I started with the “WILL SOMEONE TEACH BELTRAN HOW TO GET A GOD DAMNED RBI!” signature—I certainly didn’t start it in September.
As I said, I love Carlos. He has immense talent. But, we can’t win if we locked up 20+ million for the clutch performance we’re getting. That money needs to be reserved for the big guys you can rely on. It might have more to do with NY pressure—but I think there’s an unfair reliance on his Houston playoff performance of years ago, and we’re seeing more of what Beltran really is. A really, really good player who’s not meant to be “The Franchise.”
David Wright is turning into this kind of player. Though, going through Wright’s last year, he wasn’t quite where he is now. There’s something different about him this year now. Much improved.
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
But...
“That money needs to be reserved for the big guys you can rely on. It might have more to do with NY pressure—but I think there’s an unfair reliance on his Houston playoff performance of years ago, and we’re seeing more of what Beltran really is. A really, really good player who’s not meant to be "The Franchise."”
In the 2006 NLCS for the Mets Beltran was .296/.387/.667 with 3 homers in 7 games. I’m sure you think it’s his fault that we lost because he made the last out of game 7 but we wouldn’t have been in that situation against a crappy team if Wright and Lo Duca and Endy and Valentin and Trachsel and Wagner hadn’t been cruddy that series.
money needs to be reserved for who?
beltran was the best young FA available when we signed him and he’s produced numbers in line with what you’d expect from his career from that time. your assigning of achievement requirements based on salary seems arbitrary. i dont think the system of payroll management you’re looking for is possible in the major leagues.
OK
A non-out for Brady. The force is an out, I guess. At least there is a runner that crossed home plate. Now it’s Cassanove time!
this team is offensively challenged
especially the pitiful right-side of the infield. Good chance that Delgado and Castillo are way past real offensive productivity. They’re also too left-handed and depend on a frail middle-aged guy to give them balance.
Save America. Impeach Bush
Good day to face the Mets
Lily managed to lower his ERA to 7.30. Too bad (for Lily) the Mets won’t play the Cubs again until September.
figgy pitched well
and got screwed by some bad D
true
he’s yet to turn in a big stinker, much to the shock of all of major league baseball. im on figgy’s side, no doubt.
as long as he keeps throwing strikes
and people don’t start sitting on that first pitch get me over breaking ball (yikes) he should be okay
ZaBlanc
If you had just stated that Wright was or would be more of a “franchise” player i.e better player than Beltran in the long run, I doubt anyone, certainly not me, would have argued with you. The problem is you went much further than that.
and your list is surely incomplete, by your own admission given Beltran’s strong overall numbers in Sept last year, I would like to see more of his results. Still 41.6 % rate is pretty damn good. and you of course don’t take into account the plays he made in the outfield.
My only problem with Beltran is that he seemed to be unwilling to play hurt at times but I think he has overcome that flaw in the last half a year or so.41.6...
Not sure what the number means. I’d say that’s trying to turn everything into a stat. We’re talking about individual situations. Some of the situations I posted were not NEARLY as serious as others. I refrain from giving a grade. I just posted situations.
As for D, well yeah, I can’t measure that from the stats and I also don’t argue it. His D is alllllllways solid. My argument is the bad AB’s.
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
beltran
he made that look like it wasn’t that difficult…overpaid POS. we need some gritty guys who would’ve dove (?) for that, like darin erstad.
I have been
a noted critic of Beltran and think he’s somewhat overrated by some of the bloggers here. However, he is a very solid player, a true 5-tooler. He is not expensive given the current pay structure in baseball. I’m not complaining about him anymore. I’m happy that he does what he’s been doing. He’s not a franchise player, but he’s an excellent No. 2 guy.
Save America. Impeach Bush
Agreed.
But he’s the highest paid position player on the team, so he’s the #1 guy.
David Wright MVP Watch: .311/4/14! (through 12 games)
that makes no sense
salary is based not only on performance but indirectly on years of service. If Wright was a free-agent eligible player he would make more than Beltran. So would Reyes. You take capitalism to its illogical extreme
Save America. Impeach Bush
once again tho
i think youre looking for a kind of payroll accountability that doesnt exist in the majors. beltran got paid what he deserved to get paid based on the market. if dwrights contract somehow expired at the end of this season, he would be getting more for season than beltran. but such is the system.
i think gagne just blew another save
haha…wow.
he didn't blow
any against Mets. Lily has been terrible all year and Howry was struggling. Looks like bad pitchers get well against Mets
Save America. Impeach Bush
doug glanville
NOT hating on sabermetrics. former player who appreciates that sort of thing? amazing.
Pretty sure I could introduce you to some Penn students who’d falsify that. But I don’t disagree, Glanville is definitely a pretty smart guy as ballplayers go.
well, at the very least
he doesn’t sound like an idiot when he talks. i didn’t hear 100 “you knows” from him.
hey at least we can beat the Nationals
even lilly gets healthy on this offense. this pen really sucks. i cant be convinced otherwise. i need a mets vacation already and its april
I.M. Forme
ran into a buzzsaw
cubs would be scoring runs off of walter johnson, sandy koufax, carlton, whoever you want to throw out there. except nelson figueroa.
the heinekin call to the pen...
how appropriate as i feel the need to get sloshed whenever the mets bullpen door swings open
I.M. Forme
by itsmetsforme on Apr 22, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
ugh.
what is the Mets relief squad’s method of preparation? They just come in and waste no time sucking. ok im done bitching.
I.M. Forme
of fuck its X
is there a reliever you can’t plug into that sentence right now?
I.M. Forme
by itsmetsforme on Apr 22, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Mainly because he usually only pitches when we're winning
And we don’t look much like winning at the moment
yup
but he has been a bright spot in a rather dim bullpen
haven't seen enough of him to say
I.M. Forme
by itsmetsforme on Apr 22, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Howie just said
with no production from the 4 and 5 hitter in the order that the Mets will have trouble scoring runs. He should have included 6-9, too.
Also
Wherever Castillo happens to be hitting that day
team has injuries but
right now i dont see much room for improvement. no one is producing runs except for the bullpen
I.M. Forme
by itsmetsforme on Apr 22, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
what pinella thinks of sosa can be intuited from the fact that
he sends a pitcher in to pinch hit
I.M. Forme
Well
This will make our come from behind victory even more exciting.
wow
these two games really suck. Cubs look like what they probably are, a much better team than us, at least right now. if their bullpen really can hold up like this for the whole year, the long 100 year drought may be over.
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