Amazin' Avenue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

"Two weeks ago, there was talk of a significant off-season shake-up if the Mets couldn’t reverse their slide. Now it’s time to peruse the menu: Would Minaya be bold enough to actually trade one of his previously untouchable stars — Wright or Beltran or Jose Reyes?

Crazy thought, sure, but entirely necessary given the pattern of disappointment since 2005".

Emphasis is mine; unbridled alarmism belongs to Bob Klapisch. I have a lot of respect for Klapisch, but this is a lazy, sloppy article. I don't think anyone expected the Mets to be especially competitive in 2005, considering they were coming off a 71-91 season.

As for 2007-2008, say what you will about Reyes and Wright, they clearly are not this team's problems.

about 1 year ago Aa_avatar_tiny Eric Simon 21 comments 0 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Hmm

Without getting into my thoughts on the scapegoating of Reyes and Wright and Beltran (which, I would add, Klapisch is not the only one I have heard engage in), I guess it’s worth noting that “since 2005” could mean “in 2006, 2007 and 2008” rather than “in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008”.

by JoshNY on Sep 29, 2008 10:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yea, except

earlier in the article he added this doozy:

That’s the challenge that faces ownership this winter: what to do about the roster’s physical and psychological deficits. The Mets can find a newer, younger pitcher to replace Pedro Martinez, for example, but the real need will be reversing the losing culture that’s kept the current core of Mets out of the World Series four years in a row.

by Eric Simon on Sep 29, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm

Maybe you’re right. I can’t really find it in me to be disappointed about the performance in 2005, a year when our best starter by ERA was Jae Seo, Marlon Anderson and Miguel Cairo each played over 100 games, and Reyes, exciting though he was, OPSed .686. There was no “losing culture” there, that team just wasn’t very good.

Anyway, “losing culture” is a pile of bullshit. This year’s team just wasn’t very good either. I mean, look at the list of guys we had playing for us at some point or other because of injuries and lack of depth. Castillo, Anderson, AReyes, Raul Casanova, Trot Nixon, Brady Clark, Andy Phillips, Claudio Vargas, Tony Armas Jr., Brandon Knight, Ricardo Rincon… there are just a whole pile of has-beens and never-wases on that team.

by JoshNY on Sep 29, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If they are going to clean house

Start at the top and tear up the 4 year contract that Omar just got. He is a middle of the pack GM who has not figured out how to make the secondary moves necessary to consistently get in the playoffs. The business model he has pursued as a GM has left the Mets teetering on the brink of long term disaster.
The core players are not the problem. It’s the disgusting drop in talent from the top 6 players to the bottom 18-20 that makes this team so frustrating. That and the lack of available solutions from with in the organization.

by Reg Dunlop on Sep 29, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

exactly

As much as the media idiots have the weird habit of blaming failure on the best players (A-Rod, anyone?) it’s the Mets horrible lack of depth on the bench and in the bullpen that killed them, and that needs to be fixed pronto. You look at the 97-win Rays and see a quality bench (Floyd, Hinske, Aybar, Zobrist) and a quality bullpen (Wheeler, Balfour, Howell, Bradford) and you realize that it doesn’t take too much to put it together.

The Mets need a starting pitcher, some bullpen arms, and some bench/outfield depth. That’s all. Let’s go forward and ignore the stream of idiocy that’s going to be coming from the media in the coming days.

Vote change: DePodesta/Acta in 2009!!!

by Greenpoint Ian on Sep 29, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

god it was hard to get up this morning

I may be able to avoid the media morons and accept that Omar is getting re-upped when it is precisely his design that failed. But this Jerry Manuel business is really getting to me. Everyone seems to agree that he’s the man for the job, without any consideration of the options. This is based I guess, though no evidence is given, on the team’s record after he took over. Could a team with this much talent have done that much worse with Willie? His usage of Heilman and refusal to consider the radical approach of putting someone like Pelfrey in to relieve Ollie yesterday raises serious questions for me. The fact that he’s a popular players manager also makes me a little wary. Is that what this team needs?

What about giving Oberkfell a shot? Why not have auditions? What precisely did Jerry do (positively speaking) that merits his retention? Maybe he’s the guy, but what about considering options? What do you guys think?

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself in to trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Sep 29, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not sure you should really fault a GM...

for failing to consistently get in the playoffs. that’s a pretty high standard, no? he surely has some faults, like not filling holes with even mediocre players, but it’s not like the Mets have been bad.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 30, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give up either?

Good thinking, Klap. Between Reyes and Wright, you get 200+ rbi and runs scored. Sure, neither is a ‘proven winner’ or ‘gritty leader’, but neither walked in any runs yesterday, nor did they blow a lead in the 7th or 8th inning this year. The Mets were what, 70-20 when jose scored at least one run? Ungh.

"The people of Houston are spending money like oil's selling at $40 a barrel."

by IanB in MD on Sep 29, 2008 11:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The three biggest problems: Pitching, pitching, and pitching

I don’t think Wright/Reyes/Beltran are the problem.

The Mets bullpen was horrid this year. Relief pitchers are a fickle bunch, but they have to get some new arms in there and hope for the best.

They also need another “go to guy” starting pitcher. Santana was the only starter who did not have a major Flake Factor. You never knew if you’d get the good or bad Perez/Maine/Pelfrey. The obvious question: Do you make an insane bid for C.C. Sabathia?

by erich10031 on Sep 29, 2008 12:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

C.C.

I would not. The way the Brewers abused him this year makes me worry about his long term health. He will probably be good for two or three more years, (especially if he stays in the NL) but after that, given his workload and body type I see a major breakdown.

by Reg Dunlop on Sep 29, 2008 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt

three weeks of pitching are going to have any serious long-term effects on the pitcher. We baby our pitchers in the 2000s. Simply put, if you train their arms to handle the load, they can pitch 120+ pitches per start. His slider does give me worry, though.

Who's world is it? It's yours.

by BlackOps on Sep 29, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

relief pitching

the fact that relief pitching is such a crapshoot touches on something someone (sorry, I can’t remember who) mentioned maybe in one of the game threads last week about “live young arms” being traded away – the more of those guys you have, the better your odds are in that crapshoot.

not to mention, it seemed like the lack of a real power strikeout pitcher in the bullpen (other than Wagner) was a weakness. here’s my hypothesis: all of the playoff teams have a guy like that in addition to their closer. I’m going to go through them and see what I find…

Tampa Bay: JP Howell, 89.3 IP, 92 K, 197 ERA+; Grant Balfour, 58.3 IP, 82 K, 283 ERA+
Boston: Hideki Okajima, 62 IP, 60 K, 175 ERA+; Manny Delcarmen, 74.3 IP, 72 K, 140 ERA+
LAA: Scot Shields, 63.3 IP, 64 K, 161 ERA+; Jose Arredondo, 61 IP, 55 K, 269 ERA+
Minnesota: Boof Bonser (as a reliever): 52 IP, 55 K; Dennys Reyes, 46.3 IP, 39 K, 180 ERA+
Chicago Sox: Matt Thornton, 67 IP, 77 K, 170 ERA+; Octavio Dotel, 66.3 IP, 92 K, 120 ERA+
Philly: JC Romero, 59 IP, 52 K, 163 ERA+; Ryan Madson, 82.7 IP, 67 K, 147 ERA+
Milwaukee: Carlos Villanueva (as a reliever): 59.3 IP, 62 K
LAD: Jonathan Broxton, 69 IP, 88 K, 141 ERA+; Hong-Chih Kuo, 80 IP, 96 K, 207 ERA+
Chicago Cubs: Carlos Marmol, 87.3 IP, 114 K, 168 ERA+; Neal Cotts, 35.7 IP, 43 K, 105 ERA+

All the playoff teams (including Minnesota and Chicago because I don’t know which of them will get in) have guys you can bring in out of the bullpen to get strikeouts, which are the best way to strand runners. Tampa Bay’s and the Cubs’ and the Dodgers’ in particular are very good; not surprisingly, Milwaukee’s are the weakest and they were the most likely to miss the playoffs. Heilman was the best we had at that this year (80 K in 76 IP) but he walked too many guys (46) and his propensity to serve up the home run this year (10) neutralized a lot of the advantage of the strikeouts. Schoeneweis, Feliciano, Smith = a lot of soft-tossing, Sanchez doesn’t have his velocity back, Stokes throws hard but wasn’t able to convert that into strikeouts (26 in 33.3 IP).

That bullpen needs a lot of work.

by JoshNY on Sep 29, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

"Live young arms"

That was me in regards to the deals that sent away Bell, Ring, Lindstrom, and Owens for nothing. Unfortunately, when you look at the Mets AAA and AA system you don’t see anyone who has the type of K/9 rate you want in a reliever. It’s why I’m not a big believer in Kunz or Parnell. This would be a great time for Omar to reverse his trend and take a flier on a live but possibly erratic young pitcher.

BTW-I’m up for starting a Rangers Blog if someone can show me how.

by Reg Dunlop on Sep 29, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

of course

we kind of panned him for taking a flier on Ambiorix Burgos, who had 9.02 K/9 in his first two seasons in Kansas City (at ages 21 and 22, even). what happened to him, anyway? looks like he pitched a total of 10 innings split between Kingsport, Gulf Coast and Port St. Lucie this year.

by JoshNY on Sep 29, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hate to admit it

I supported the Banny for Burgos trade. Burgos had season-ending surgery early last year and was in the rehab process this year. Judging by the fact that his last outing was at the end of August, I gather it didn’t go so well.

Of course I supported the trade before I knew that Banny was such a cerebral pitcher who was a fan of statistical analysis.

by Reg Dunlop on Sep 29, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"the lack of a real power strikeout pitcher in the bullpen "

i agree with your hypothesis. And such a move, despite the unpredictability of relievers from year to year, would be relatively easy to figure since a guy either is a power arm or he isn’t. Omar seems to understand the “stockpiling” approach to the pen. I guess that’s the good news.

I’m so upset that I am open to the pursuit of Sabathia and Teixeira right now.

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself in to trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Sep 29, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the whole "relief pitchers are a crapshoot thing" just shows that a lot of people don't understand what makes a good pitcher

over 75 innings, anyone can look good or bad when judged by ERA or W-L or Saves. but skills like K/9, BB/9, GB%, etc are much more stable. get guys with good skills and you’ll have a good (and probably cheap) bullpen.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 30, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not surprising

Given how the media has shit all over the Yankees’ best player over the last 5 years, it doesn’t surprise me that this kind of crap is written. Blaming the stars for their “losing attitude” or some shit like that is always easier than writing something that takes some thought.

Anyway, for those who care, David Wright finished 5th in the majors in VORP this season. Jose Reyes was 7th. Carlos Beltran was 13th. If there was a problem with the Mets this season, it most certainly did not begin with these 3. Trading any of them for anything (short of getting back something like Evan Longoria and James Shields) would be the height of stupidity.

Vote change: DePodesta/Acta in 2009!!!

by Greenpoint Ian on Sep 29, 2008 12:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

teerarded

beltran wright and reyes are the only guys you can be 100% about on the team. why the hell would you get rid of any of them? what could you possibly get in return that would make it worth it.

change anything else if you want a shake up but those three guys are literally the last ones you’d want to move. Bob Klapisch: FAIL.

by kendynamo on Sep 29, 2008 12:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The trade I will never forgive...

…is Scott Kazmir for two bags of kibble (and Victor Zambrano…but the kibble was worth more and at least the stray cats living in Shea could eat it)

by erich10031 on Sep 29, 2008 11:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

In the words of kingcritical, "Shit for brains? That would be Steve Phillips!"

That Kazmir trade will be terrible forever. Heck, I watched Zambrano’s last start as a Met, and as strange as it was (a strikeout of Jones, then run off the field!) it does not make up for the loss. The Mets would certainly be a much different team if Scott were still a Met.

That being said, Omar did keep Big Pelf, and that looks like it may be a feather in his cap. Mike may not flirt with striking out 200 batters, but I think he’s good enough for 15 wins, which is not terrible when Santana is the ace of the squad.

"The people of Houston are spending money like oil's selling at $40 a barrel."

by IanB in MD on Sep 30, 2008 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Start posting about the Mets »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Axolotl_small
Ezequial Carrera
Axolotl_small
Jose Valentin
Axolotl_small
Castillo for Snyder?
Small
AAOP - It's Late, But Still Good
Small
AAOP: A new outlook...
Me_go_mets_small
AAOP: Just get Pujols
Small
AAOP: Supplementing the Core
Small
AAOP
The_buddha_by_lord_karsus_small
Grissionometer
Misc_007_small
Madoff, Backman, and an Old Baseball Jacket

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Marty Noble: Glavine Claims Young Mets Weren't Offended By Losing
WAR analysis of AAOPs

Recent FanShots

Sunday Morning Funnies
NY Times Quotes a Metsblog commenter
Mets have inquired about Crawford
Mets expand presence of history at Citi
And you thought the "I'm thankful for Jeff Francoeur" MetsMerized graphic was a bit ridiculous
Metsmerized steals Grission
Sources: Keith Hernandez Returning to SNY
No Matt Holliday or Jason Bay apparently means Adrian Gonzalez
Wallace Matthews says Mets should look to 2011
This idea looks familar

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Sponsors


THE BIG GUY

Aa_avatar_small Eric Simon

THE INCREDIBLES

Blackfish2_small Alex Nelson

Cj_small Sam Page

Best_infield_ever_small James Kannengieser

THE NEWS GURU

Wrightfront_small Joe Budd

THE POET LAUREATE

Hamheadshot__1__small Howard Megdal