Mets Lose Out On Lowe, Now What?
So you lost out on Derek Lowe. Your division rival, whom you figured didn't have much money to spend, beat your sorry-ass offer by $28 million. In a soft market you were dealt pocket queens and slow-played them until the other guy made his king pair on the river, leaving you with the shortest of stacks and Oliver !@#$ing Perez. So, what now?
The aforementioned Perez is available. So is Ben Sheets, who has seemingly drawn interest from nobody at all. He has a checkered injury history, but there's little question he is the superior arm:
| Player | 2007 WAR | 2007 tRA+ | 2007 tRA* | 2008 WAR | 2008 tRA+ | 2008 tRA* |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Oliver Perez | 3.6 | 116 | 4.69 | 1.7 | 96 | 5.09 |
| Ben Sheets | 2.7 | 115 | 4.68 | 5.3 | 128 | 4.19 |
Let's briefly compare the two in a few areas of interest (see Sam's take on this very topic from last week; I found it worth revisiting considering its renewed relevance):
Pitching value
Perez and Sheets were roughly equivalent pitchers in 2007, though Sheets was thrice as valuable as Perez last year. Perez held a 35 innings pitched edge in 2007, which is actually a positive tick mark for each pitcher: Perez gets an edge in health, but Sheets gets a bump in value rate (i.e. the two pitchers had equivalent WAR but Sheets accrued his total value in fewer innings, so given comparable innings we'd expect Sheets to be the more valuable of the two).
Sheets has a career ERA+ of 116 (139, 117 and 119 the past three seasons). Perez has a career ERA+ of 96 (100, 120 and 67 the past three seasons). That last season on Perez's list was his dreadful 2006, which we can probably disregard because he was clearly lost and bereft of any hope as he spiraled out of control in Pittsburgh (though he was likewise terrible after being traded to the Mets at the break, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he was still coming out of his malaise).
Given a typical season from each, I don't think there's any question we could expect Sheets to be the superior pitcher. Perez strikes out more batters (9.25 per nine for his career versus 7.60 for Sheets), but Sheets has vastly better control (1.97 BB/9 versus 4.76 for Sheets), and has a considerably better ratio of one to the other (3.85 K/BB versus 1.95 for Perez).
Health & age
Perez is three years younger than Sheets (26 versus 29), and may just be entering his prime while Sheets is nearing the back end of his. Perez has 999.1 innings on his arm compared to 1428.0 for Sheets. Sheets has made 77 starts over the past three seasons (31, 24 and 22 including minor league starts) compared to 96 for Perez (34, 30 and 32), so Perez has spent far more time on the field, for better or worse. I think we'd all agree that it's far more reasonable to expect Perez to make 30+ starts in each of the next three years than for Sheets to do the same, given age and health considerations. Whatever their relative values may be, there's something to be said for simply showing up and making your starts, especially when the value of replacement (e.g. Jon Niese, etc.) is likely to be far lower than what is being replaced.
Others have contended that 150 innings of Sheets plus 50 innings of Niese is preferable to 200 innings of Perez, and given last year's player values I don't think you could argue otherwise. The problem with injury-prone pitchers -- aside from just regular injuries -- is their susceptibility to breaking down completely and providing 50 innings instead of 150. Might we still pass on Perez if the alternative is 50 innings of Sheets and 150 innings of Niese?
Upside/potential
The conventional wisdom is that lefties develop -- or peak -- later in their careers than their right-handed counterparts. I know of at least one study that says otherwise, in which smart guy Rany Jazayerli concludes that "[t]here is simply no compelling evidence that southpaws develop any more slowly than right-handers do." Let's assume, then, that in general lefties don't actually develop later than righties. Certainly, though, specific pitchers develop later than others, and there is one interesting comparable to Perez through this point in his career.
| Player | Thru Age | IP | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | K/BB |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Oliver Perez | 26 | 999.1 | 9.2 | 4.8 | 1.31 | 1.95 |
| Randy Johnson | 28 | 818.0 | 9.0 | 5.7 | 0.77 | 1.58 |
It's not a perfect comp because Perez began his big league career at age 20 while Johnson didn't break in until he was 24. As a result, I had to cherry-pick the cutoff a little bit and ran Johnson's numbers through 1992 (he finished second in the AL Cy Young voting in 1993). Johnson did a much better job limiting homeruns, but in all other respects you can argue that Perez was the better pitcher. These numbers and Johnson's subsequent ascent to legendary status portend nothing of a stunning Perez turnaround, though advocates for Perez's high ceiling would nonetheless be happy to fancy the possibilities. Aside from the homeruns, another stark difference between the two pitchers is fastball velocity, where Johnson regularly sat in the high-nineties and Perez is mired a solid 7-8 MPH beneath that. They both feature(d) devastating sliders, so I suppose Perez can hang his hat on that.
The problem with the Johnson comparison is that for every pitcher who reaches his potential you can cast a stone and peg a couple dozen pitchers who never even came close. The good news for Perez is that he has actually already showed that potential for an extended spell, specifically during his terrific 2004 season with the Pirates (2.98 ERA, 239 strikeouts to 81 walks in 196 innings). That's more than most high-ceiling pitchers can say, but again we run into a velocity problem. Five years ago, Perez's fastball was mid-nineties or better. He's lost five miles per hour over that time, and he has shown no compelling signs with the Mets that he's suddenly going to rediscover that additional oomph.
Well?
While there's a chance that Oliver Perez will approach his high ceiling, color me skeptical. Nothing I've seen over the last two-plus seasons has screamed "corner turn", and while his relative health is a nice thing to have, there are plenty of guys who will pitch half-decently for 200 innings and won't cost $13 million (see: Redding, Tim). At $7 million or so Perez is probably a good deal, and a worthwhile gamble that he will actually fulfill his potential. If he doesn't, he could still be a decent pitcher for reasonable money. The Mets have reportedly offered him $10 million a year for three years, but they no longer have the leverage they had two days ago and might reasonably expect to spend $13 million a year for four years if they really want to keep Perez around. Perez could be a $13 million pitcher, but he wasn't anywhere near that last year and he probably won't be one next year. He is likely to make 30+ starts and have an ERA in the low fours.
Ben Sheets probably won't cost $52 million over four years like Perez. He might be more like $20 million over two years, which is a reasonable bounty for a terrific pitcher with some health question marks. He could throw 220 innings of 2.50 ERA ball, but he is likely to throw 160 innings of 3.50 ERA ball. That's a heckuva lot better than Perez's likely result and for a bunch less money to boot. Sheets is more likely to miss time due to injury than Perez, but he's also more likely to contribute meaningfully to the starting rotation. His average-case scenario is a good #2 starter; Perez's average-case scenario is a solid #4 starter.
Again, this may all be moot since the Mets haven't shown any particular inclination to reach out to Sheets. One can hope that the Mets sour on Scott Boras's game-playing and opt to go in a different direction, namely Ben Sheets's direction. Or, they could pass on both Sheets and Perez and sign Randy Wolf, but then we'd all have to commit mass seppuku.
Comments
This line pretty much sums it up for me:
“Perez could be a $13 million pitcher [in 2009].”
I really would rather not have the Mets be the team that overpays for Ollie’s potential. I have no issue with bringing him back; I have only issues with bringing him back for the money he wants/will likely get.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 9:01 AM EST
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Petite is another interesting name I think Meddler brought up in other threads.
Also I liked Wolf as a 5th starter, signing him as our replacement for losing out on Lowe would make me cry.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 9:08 AM EST
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Unit
The other problem with the Johnson comparison is that he didn’t take a long time to develop because he’s a lefty, he took a long time to develop because he’s 6’10" and couldn’t figure out his mechanics.
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 9:16 AM EST
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Good point
Though we can probably agree that, like Johnson, Perez’s main problem is also mechanical. He’s not 6’10", but it’s not unthinkable that he might get his mechanics straightened out and become a consistently good pitcher.
by Eric Simon on
Jan 14, 2009 9:22 AM EST
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True
But Perez:
A) has been in the majors for seven years now and has not yet fixed his mechanics; in Johnson’s sixth year (and fifth full year, since he only made four starts in 1988) he had a K:BB of 308:99, an ERA+ of 136, and was recognized as one of the best pitchers in the AL by coming in second in the Cy Young voting.
B) does not have the added complexity to figuring out mechanics due to an abnormal body type; I don’t have quotes to back this up but it would seem intuitive that pitching coaches have more experience (and are therefore more effective) helping pitchers who are 6’3" fix their mechanics than pitchers who are 6’10"
C) doesn’t throw heat in the upper ‘90s like Johnson did when he was younger and there isn’t any reason to believe he ever will
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 10:47 AM EST
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Something similar
There’s a guy by the name of Daniel Cabrera that was “supposed to be” a phenom who “was” w/the Baltimore Orioles. Apparently they couldn’t get his control under control due to problems with his mechanics after 5 years. The Orioles basically gave up on him and the Nationals picked him up. So if Cabrera couldn’t fix his mechanics after 5 and Perez can’t fix ’em after 7, why the hell are we wasting our time on him?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:19 PM EST
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One more thing.
With Ollie, I don’t think it’s mechanics as much as it is focus. Ollie does this weird thing where he will change his delivery or his pace from pitch to pitch. This leads to wildness.
Perez has good mechanics when he focuses and employs them. However, sometimes he spaces out, his mechanics get out of whack, and that’s all she wrote. So I don’t think it’s a matter of “fixing” his mechanics as it is getting him to focus from inning.
Look at how he pitches in “big games.” For the most part, he’s stepped up against the likes of the Phillies, Braves, Yanks, and even pitched well in the WBC for Mexico (for what it’s worth.) IMO, this implies that he focuses more in the bigger games, which leads to better results.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:26 PM EST
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So, he's still "spacing out" after 7 years?
&
“…he focuses more in the bigger games…”
So in 7 years, no one has offered the guy the services of a “shrink” to fix his head cases? Ugh…sounding better and better by the post.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:30 PM EST
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i am wondering about this "big game" thing and my memory...
didn’t he start the Mets last game this past season?
And didn’t Endy have to go outside of the field of play to even keep it close in game 7 vs the Cards?
Maybe he beat some division rivals once in a while, but i don’t think we should give credence to chapter titles from Bora$ authored brag-books without thinking it through.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:38 PM EST
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Big Games
I’m sure you could go and look up bad “big games” for guys like Smoltz, Pettitte, Schilling, El Duque, etc., all notorious big game pitchers. Even Rivera blew a World Series and LCS.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST
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all those guys you mentioned
didn’t have to manufacture a big game reputation. They were consistently good. But how many playoff or elimination games has Ollie actually won/dominated in? I have no idea what a definition of big game should be, but my suspicion is still that this wouldn’t be a very good rationale for signing Ollie. I have the feeling his inconsistency has been mistaken for him “getting up” for certain teams by some fans eager to come up with a comfortable narrative that explains him.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:48 PM EST
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that was a tasty retort. loved it.
Getting up for a big game is synonymous with clutch hitting, no?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:50 PM EST
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I've always felt
that “big-game pitchers” exist, at least to a much greater extent than clutch hitters. A big part of pitching is mental, you’re standing out there by yourself waiting to deliver a pitch. If a guy has weak nerves, that’s gonna rattle him, and he’s not gonna pitch as well. If he’s got strong nerves, he’s gonna block everything out and pitch well. Hitting and fielding is much more reactionary – that’s not to say there’s no mental aspect to it, but I don’t think it plays quite a big part.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 3:08 PM EST
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Player (Career ERA/Postseason ERA)
Christy Mathewson (2.13/0.97)
Babe Ruth (2.28/0.87)
Sandy Koufax (2.76/0.95)
Bob Gibson (2.91/1.89)
Bert Blyleven (3.31/2.47)
John Smoltz (3.25/2.65)
Curt Schilling (3.46/2.23)
El Duque (4.13/2.55)
Josh Beckett (3.78/2.90)
Mariano Rivera (2.29/0.97)
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 3:40 PM EST
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ah damn
didn’t realize someone else already had it haha. I was trying to find a good picture of Fonzie, but when I googled him that came up and it was too good not to use.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 4:35 PM EST
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Haha keep it if you like
Best Infield Ever.
by JamesK on
Jan 14, 2009 4:53 PM EST
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Except for Beckett and Duque, who are still really good
You’re talking about a bunch of all-timers. ERA can be a ruff stat, and the sample sizes are probably pretty small, so I’m going to say that this doesn’t really mean much.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 4:57 PM EST
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true
they’re great pitchers. But they became better in the postseason. And there are a lot of great pitchers who didn’t become better in the postseason, and many who became worse. Except for Becket, none of them had any bad postseasons either, they were all pretty consistently great in those games.
And I’m sure there are marginal pitchers who pitched a lot better in the postseason, though I’m too lazy to do the research for them right now.
As Yogi said, 90% of the game is half mental – I think that’s particularly true with pitching. You obviously need talent to succeed – but I think with pitchers, a lot of what makes the difference between a good pitcher and a great one is mental toughness or whatever you want to call it.
My biggest complaint about the stat crowd (which I normally agree with 99% of the time) is that anything that doesn’t fit their pre-conceived notions is a sample size error or “luck.” For example, Jack Morris wasn’t particularly good in the first or second round of playoffs, but he was lights out in the World Series. Is that a sample size error, was Morris lucky, or did Morris have something about him that made him pitch better in the World Series? I don’t think there’s any way to definitively answer that question, but I don’t think it should be dismissed so easily.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 5:10 PM EST
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Not really
It’s just that a small number of data points doesn’t tell you anything important. I’m always open to new ideas; isn’t that how the “stat crowd” came to be?
What you’re saying could be true, of course, but the postseason pitching data likely isn’t good, conclusive proof either way.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 5:14 PM EST
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the problem though
is that unless a guy pitches for the Yankees his whole career, he’s not gonna rack up enough postseason innings to get anything close to a large enough sample size to convince anyone, which conveniently allows those who don’t believe in clutch pitching to ignore any evidence that points towards it. Heck, even guys who DO pitch for the Yankees only rack up about a seasons worth of postseason innings over their careers (Andy Pettitte has 218 postseason IP), and as we all know, even 200 innings can produce aberrations.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 5:23 PM EST
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Exactly
A dearth of data points doesn’t mean we just go with whatever we’ve got. We just say there’s no way to know for sure, and that’s that.
Basically, you can’t prove that there is a “clutch” skill here and I can’t disprove it. In any event, I do think that mental/psychological issues play a substantial role in pitching — how else would you explain Rick Ankiel, for example?
But in the end I’d just rather focus on analyzing what is measurable. All of those guys you listed are just great pitchers. They’re great in the reg season, great in the postseason.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 5:32 PM EST
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You're missing the point.
I’m not saying Ollie is as good as these guys. My point is that even these guys have had bad games in big spots.
No one pitches lights out in big spots every time. Ollie, who is obviously not as good as those pitchers, would tend to have a few more clunkers than them.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:52 PM EST
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"Clunkers" (Dammit Josh, I'm afraid to use any type of quotes now)
More blog vernacular to describe pitching results. Yummy, yum, yum.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:53 PM EST
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ok
but do you see Ollie as “big game”? More specifically, if you were investing in Ollie, would you add “big game” to “high ceiling” or “occasionally dominant lefty” as justifications for your investment?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:55 PM EST
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while I agree with your premise
I don’t think it’s fair to hold Endy’s catch against Ollie. He pitched a fantastic game in Game 7.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 3:06 PM EST
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Is Ritalin the answer here?
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on
Jan 14, 2009 1:27 PM EST
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Ritalin, or marriage.
Maybe Ollie’s new-found maturity will make him more patient and focused.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 1:33 PM EST
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Ehh
The issue of how long Johnson was in the majors before he worked out his mechanics is only marginally relevant. Presumably both Johnson and Perez have been working on their mechanics since they started pitching, so absolute age would seem to be the better point of comparison.
All other points stand.
by JobiJoba on
Jan 14, 2009 5:28 PM EST
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“Your division rival, whom you figured didn’t have much money to spend”
The Braves planned on spending around $40 million per season in contracts this year. I know that’s not quite huge money to New York fans, but how could you figure the Braves didn’t have much to spend? They still have over $10 million to go.
by penno on
Jan 14, 2009 9:27 AM EST
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I figured they didn't have much money to spend
They’re not notorious free agency spenders, and having already acquired Vazquez and Kawakami I thought it unlikely that they’d spend another $15 million on Lowe. I didn’t realize how much salary was coming off the books (Smoltz, Glavine, Kotsay, Teixeira, Hampton).
by Eric Simon on
Jan 14, 2009 9:36 AM EST
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I don't see how we can ignore Sheets now.
After losing out on Lowe, Omar’s been hearing it from the fans a bit.
by squid92 on
Jan 14, 2009 9:43 AM EST
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Nice writeup Eric
I’m really digging adding pictures to your articles.
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 10:14 AM EST
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Almost makes this whole thing seem legitimate, eh?
by Eric Simon on
Jan 14, 2009 10:19 AM EST
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Yeah, almost too legit
Worried about you selling out soon and ditching the statistical numbers.
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 1:21 PM EST
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Yeah.
I caught a sneak-peek at Eric’s planned front-page post for tomorrow morning. The headline is “Adam Dunn Strikes Out Too Much.” The article goes on to discuss how Adam Dunn is a terrible idea for this team because he has a low batting average and doesn’t have enough hustle or grit to survive in this town. Eric also goes on a tangent about how Jose Reyes doesn’t respect the game like real baseball players, and how Jose should spend some time on Derek Jeter’s website to learn how a player with true class conducts himself. It’s the kind of work that’ll get Eric a job as a professional sportswriter any day now.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 1:32 PM EST
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Don't forget
That Dunn plays baseball like it’s his job and Murphy plays it like he’s all business, which doesn’t mean the same thing…it means Murphy is serious and Dunn is… hold on…Murphy loves the game so much he doesn’t show emotion but Dunn lacks emtotion…no wait, Dunn just acts like he’s at work while Murphy treats the game like his job that he want…Dunn sux0rs!
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 3:08 PM EST
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heh
You know, I was thinking about this last night. Dunn is a Texas guy who was a star QB in high school in addition to playing baseball and was recruited by the University of Texas. Then he gets to Austin and Major Applewhite is recruited the same year and becomes the starter in 1998 when they’re both redshirt freshmen, and then Chris Simms commits to go to Texas the following year.
At that point, Dunn leaves UT to go play in the Reds’ farm system full-time (having previously returned to Austin in the fall of 1998 after playing rookie ball that summer), and makes it to the majors at 22 after destroying AA and AAA as a 21-year-old.
So I guess my point is, isn’t it possible that while Dunn is clearly better at baseball, football is his first love and what he’d rather be playing if he were good enough at it?
More importantly, even if that’s the case, who cares? As long as he’s damn good at baseball, should I care whether he’s having any fun playing it or not? Wouldn’t you rather the Mets be full of 25 players who are surly but awesome and win the World Series than 25 guys who enjoy every minute of their 110-loss season?
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 3:39 PM EST
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surly but awesome?
You mean, like these guys:

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on
Jan 14, 2009 4:06 PM EST
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I don't know if I'd classify them as surly though
Barry Bonds, surly. Roger Clemens, surly. Bill Belichick, surly. I wouldn’t want a team of 25 guys like that, no matter how good they are.
The ‘86 team was filled with assholes, miscreants, drug users, and other shady characters, but they weren’t surly, IMO.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 4:37 PM EST
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That's why I avoid them
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on
Jan 14, 2009 2:40 PM EST
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Count me out
A True Yankee in a Mets uni every fifth day? Maybe it’s Favre-itis, but I’d have trouble with this.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 10:29 AM EST
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Fox Sports
Here’s an interesting suggestion for the Mets, courtesy of a rival executive: Sign free-agent left-hander Andy Pettitte for one year and $13 million. The Mets could do such a deal and still get Oliver Perez or Randy Wolf for not much more than they would have paid Lowe if they had increased their offer. The additional depth couldn’t hurt; righty John Maine is coming off shoulder surgery …
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9076458/Lackey-could-be-next-year%27s-offseason-gem
by famos23 on
Jan 14, 2009 10:34 AM EST
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Sure
I could take a flier on that. Does anyone know what Pettitte’s asking price is? I know he rejected 1/$10 million from the Skanks but is he seeking significantly more than that?
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 10:32 AM EST
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Why not sign both?
Signing both Sheets and Perez would give the team a nice rotation with RH/LH balance, while also providing them with SP depth this organization hasn’t had in a long time.
The rotation would set up like this: Johan/Sheets/Ollie/Maine/Pelfrey. This would allow the Mets to skip Pelfrey’s starts early in the season, which would help keep his innings down. Further, this would put Redding in the bullpen as a long man who could start second games of double headers and could even give you a spot start and let you skip Pelfrey. Plus, what are the odds one of our pitchers doesn’t have a stint on the DL (Maine and Sheets especially)?
With Redding and Niese waiting in the wings, the Mets would have capable starters who could give them innings without taxing the bullpen too much, which has been the problem with the team’s 6th and 7th starters in years past.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 11:23 AM EST
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Money
I’m assuming Sheets isn’t going to be signing for less than 10-12 million per. I don’t think they’re going to spend that much per for two players this off-season.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 11:33 AM EST
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Right, and
like it or not, Omar signed Redding to be the 5th starter. I’m going to assume that Minaya sees that as a “filled position,” and is now only looking for one starter.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 11:47 AM EST
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sigh, i don't like it
you’re probably right, but maybe Omar notices how often his teams turn to scrubs at the bottom of their rotation for valuable starts, and he wants to turn the page and actually have a plan this year! Rather than getting Miggy with it.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:16 PM EST
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"...and he wants to turn the page and actually have a plan..."
General Custer had a plan…
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:24 PM EST
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I like that idea
Though I think as you hint, with Maine and Sheets likely to hit the skids, maybe it should be their early starts which are taken gently or skipped…
by deadspy3 on
Jan 14, 2009 12:13 PM EST
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agree but
The Mets will never do it. Nor will they even sign Sheets or Ollie and Randy Wolf. They are trying to put together the rotation on the cheap. It will come back to bite them the same way the bullpen did last year.
I am really upset with the turn this offseason has taken
by Endys Game on
Jan 14, 2009 12:25 PM EST
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On the cheap?
I think that’s an inaccurate statement. 4/5 of the rotation is arguably filled, and it’s a testament to the Mets that they have Pelfrey and Maine in there at cost efficient salaries. They opened the wallet for Johan and will do the same if they get Ollie. Redding is also making a decent salary for a 5th starter.
I really take issue with fans who call the Mets cheap. They spend plenty of money.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:30 PM EST
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Yeah he seems to have spent on the bullpen
and is now trying to go cheap on the rotation? That’s really weird, and unfortunate.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 12:30 PM EST
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Omar's approach
is like whack-a-mole. A perceived hole pops up, he fills it. We needed a 5th starter, we got Redding. What irks me is the sense that we don’t “need” corner OFs because we “can live with” the guys we have.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:33 PM EST
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though to be fair to Omar
he did trade for a closer to fill the 8th-inning setup role
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:34 PM EST
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fair point
but, our bullpen was that bad. Besides, “The Closer” (and its friend, “The Save”) is stupid. I refuse to recognize it, heh.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:37 PM EST
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I agree with you about closers and saves
but we’ve never seen anything to suggest to us that Omar feels the same way. In Omar’s mind, he went over slot (so to speak) by getting Putz for the 8th inning.
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST
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yes, that's true
and I like the Putz move a lot — better than the K-rod signing — but I’d submit that the Putz acquisition is an exception to the rule, brought about by the extreme suckitude of the bullpen.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:43 PM EST
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I'd take a Sheets
taking a gamble on him is not like gambling on Ol Duque; You could call that progress.
As for Ollie, where’s the loyalty? The Mets picked him off or out of a trash pile and gave him the chance to ream them or someone in free agency become a valued pitcher. And dis DIS is how he repays us?
i guess that really doesn’t factor in.
Please no Pettitte.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:13 PM EST
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Loyalty has nothing to do with it.
This is a business.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:17 PM EST
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Anyone think the Wilpon's might "actually" be in a tighter situation than previously thought when it comes to money?
Citi shares falling. Any connection?
Madoff fallout? Any connection?
Something just doesn’t smell right. Why is it taking so long to get another SP? The waiting game strategy worked for Santana last year, but there “AIN’T” anymore Santana’s out there right now. Go make an offer to Sheets or Perez and just do the damn thing. What’s the hold up?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:27 PM EST
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My issue with this is
Even if the Wilpons are hurting the Mets shouldn’t be. I understand that it probably happens but it annoys me that they would be cheap with the Mets money because of their personal financial issues.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 12:31 PM EST
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You don't think there's ANY connection to a person who own's something and loses money in another venture?
You don’t think there is a residual effect?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:39 PM EST
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No not that's not what I'm saying.
I’m saying there probably is and it bothers me that there is. It’s not like a situation like Minnesota has where their owner is a billionaire and fans are upset that he doesn’t spend more of his personal money to improve Minnesota, we’re talking about money most fans are talking about is money the mets make that isn’t, or at least doesn’t seem to be, being reinvested back into the team.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST
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That's a fair question
I don’t know that I ever really thought of the Wilpons as the “pour my own money into the team to make them better” style of owner like the Steinbrenners or Jerry Jones or Roman Abramovich. In any case, the fans are now paying the Mets more for tickets into a stadium that was partially subsidized by taxpayers so they should have money to spend.
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST
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I just read
that the Wilpons were apparently in negotiations to buy Newcastle United, but that seems to have fallen through after the Madoff scandal broke. Didn’t mention the Wilpons by name, but I think it alluded to “MLB owners affected by the Madoff Ponzi scheme,” or some such. And the Wilpons have tried to buy soccer teams before.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:44 PM EST
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true
IIRC they were interested in an expansion MLS franchise
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:46 PM EST
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in any case
Newcastle United is a giant mess and the Wilpons are better off not being involved
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:46 PM EST
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Yep.
Best to stay far away from the Toon Army.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 12:56 PM EST
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people who own baseball teams dont hurt, they have small set backs.
also, the one thing that make sheets interesting is the fact that he was a number 1 pitcher for the brewers, so he faced the other teams top pitcher almost every time. that is a big advantage over perez
i also dont like that perez has been in the league for 7 years, and still only shows up for big games
by jhroac02 on
Jan 14, 2009 2:43 PM EST
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"one thing that make sheets interesting is the fact that he was a number 1 pitcher for the brewers, so he faced the other teams top pitcher almost every time"
I dunno… once you’re more than a few weeks into the season, I don’t think things line up that way with any real reliability. In any case, you don’t pitch against the other team’s pitcher, you pitch against the other team’s hitters.
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 2:56 PM EST
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Perhaps.
But I still don’t think it’s an issue (see above.) The Mets have one of the highest salaries in baseball. They’re not cheap.
Plus, there is something to be said for having some flexibility to allow for moves for the deadline. It’s good to have contingency plans, but nothing works out perfectly and it’s probably good to allow room for flexibility to make adjustments for unforeseen circumstances.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:32 PM EST
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You can spend a lot of money and still be cheap
Now, I don’t think the Wilpons have been particularly cheap in the last 3 or 4 years. But they might go down as the only team to move into a new stadium and cut payroll in the same season. They’re opening a HUGE new revenue stream and you’d like to see them use some of the new money.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:35 PM EST
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There's this thing we're in, I believe it's called a recession.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:45 PM EST
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that doesn't necessarily affect the Mets
who are slated to make a ton of money after opening their heavily-subsidized brand new stadium, a couple of years after unveiling their shiny new TV network.
Also, needless to say, the recession hasn’t stopped Hank ‘n’ Hal.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:48 PM EST
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Stop comparing the Mets to the Yankees.
The Yankees are a revenue generating machine. The Yankees are on a level of their own. Plus, the Yankees haven’t increased their payroll either.
And see my post above. The economy affects everyone.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:50 PM EST
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We haven't increased our payroll either though.
And at this point it seems like we’re going to end up decreasing it.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 12:51 PM EST
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Again.
So what?
Why is it so outrageous to think that Minaya actually believes in Murphy in LF (which would give them a cheap LF option who would nonetheless be effective.)
And who would you rather have in the rotation next season? Pedro or Redding? Honestly, I would rather have Redding (and I don’t even like him that much.)
Just because they decreased payroll doesn’t mean they didn’t improve the team.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:55 PM EST
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"Pedro or Redding" is a false dichotomy
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:59 PM EST
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Why is it so outrageous to believe we're being cheap?
I mean sure it’s not outrageous to believe Minaya thinks Murphy there just don’t seem to be a lot of reasonable reasons for him to think that. Especially when we’re talking about a team with long-term question marks in the middle of the order.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 1:00 PM EST
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It isn't outrageous to think that.
I just think it’s important to throw out the perspective that the Mets aren’t being cheap and that they are improving the team without spending exorbitant amounts of money.
As someone said in another thread, you would like to think the Mets are analyzing these issues as closely as we are. So if they’re comfortable with Murphy in LF, then you would like to think it’s because they think he can do the job and not because they’re “cheap.”
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 1:02 PM EST
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Ok, that post was a bit snarky.
But seriously, you can’t compare the Mets moving into Citifield this year with teams who have moved into new stadiums in recent memory. While it is assumed they will be raking in the dough, there is no way of knowing how much revenue Citifield will generate. Sure, economists can make projections, but there is really no way of knowing for sure.
Here’s a personal example: last year I had a 7 game package. There is a good chance I only get to one or two games this year. And if I do go, there is no way I am buying merch and food.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:49 PM EST
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Why is that less true than for teams moving in other years?
It’s not like economist make projections regardless of the economic situation. They’re projections would be affected by the recession.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 12:50 PM EST
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And it's also foolish
to compare the Mets, one of the top 2 or 3 valuable and revenue-producing MLB franchises, to “all those other teams moving into new stadiums.”
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:52 PM EST
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Also.
Weren’t you the one who made the initial “foolish” comparison?
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 12:58 PM EST
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according to you, yes
Listen, the bottom line is we have no idea how the recession is going to affect the Mets, but I’ve read some articles detailing how 2008 MLB revenues were terrific and the recession shouldn’t have an effect on 2009 operating budgets. That doesn’t mean that teams won’t use it as an excuse to depress players’ value on the open market.
The Mets happen to be a profitable enterprise, we’ve had recessions before, and yet the Mets still might be the first MLB franchise to decrease payroll while moving into a new stadium.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 1:01 PM EST
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"they might go down as "...the only team to move into a new stadium and cut payroll in the same season."
From your initial post.
My only point was that these teams did not have to deal with a recession.
And do we even know if teams have moved into new stadiums during an economic crisis?
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 1:04 PM EST
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Do we know that those teams didn't?
Economic downturns don’t affect all businesses the same way. And even assuming that Sterling Equities is taking a big hit, the Mets are run as a separate entity, a highly profitable one, at that. So it’s unfortunate, and maybe even a little cheap, if the Wilpons decide to pinch pennies (which I’m not necessarily arguing that they’re doing).
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 1:08 PM EST
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The NFL laid off over 100 employees.
So don’t tell me MLB isn’t going to be affected.
My point has nothing to do with Sterling Equities. As the owner of the Mets, the Wilpons are being smart if they are more cautious with their spending during the recession. Even though 2008 was a profitable year, you can’t just say 2009 will be the same or better. The country is in an economic crisis and the unemployment rate is higher. People are worried about being laid off and may not plop down cash on tickets and merch like they did in ‘08. So if they’re being “cheap” (I prefer cautious) with their spending going into 20009 considering the economic climate, it’s probably a good business move.
You need to remember that owning a baseball team is still a business venture.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 1:15 PM EST
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We'll have to agree to disagree
the economy generally sucks, but it doesn’t suck equally for everyone. Without access to the Mets’ books, I’d nonetheless predict that Mets revenues are up in ’09 with the new digs, recession and all. Perhaps some other teams will take a hit.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 1:22 PM EST
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It's not even that I am disagreeing with you.
And I agree that the situation doesn’t suck equally for everyone. But I don’t think you can necessarily kill Mets ownership for being a bit cautious with their spending in this economy.
I was also trying to put out another perspective on this debate.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 1:32 PM EST
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I'm not killing them
It’s just disheartening because they’re opening a new stadium, and just a few years ago unveiled a television network. It’s those particular circumstances that get me.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 1:37 PM EST
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I hear you.
And I agree, it is disheartening. But I still think it’s a bit much to call a team with a top 5 payroll during an economic crisis, cheap.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 3:36 PM EST
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Lunch-time project.
I took a few minutes from lunch-time to answer this question. It’s all compiled from the internets and I apologize for not posting footnotes for every fact cited:
- The Metrodome opened in 1982, during a two-year recession. I could not find any salary data on-line.
- Two parks opened during the brief March-November 2001 recession: Miller Park and PNC Park. The Brewers’ payroll went from about $35 million in 2000 to $43 million in 2001 and $50 million in 2002. Pittsburgh’s payroll went from $29 million in 2000 to $52.7 million (!) in 2001 and then down to $42.3 million in 2002.
- One park has opened so far in the current recession that started in December 2007: Nats Park. Washington’s payroll went from $37.3 million in 2007 to $55 million in 2008.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 1:27 PM EST
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Good facts.
However, I do think you would agree that the current economic situation is pretty historic and far worse than even December 2007.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 1:30 PM EST
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Oh, no doubt.
I’m currently looking for a new job and, let me tell you, it’s no picnic out there. I was just answering the question.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 1:34 PM EST
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Didn't you say you practice law?
As a guy half way through law school that scares the heck out of me.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 3:37 PM EST
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I'm a lawyer, big firm
Things are tough. Layoffs everywhere.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 3:38 PM EST
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I can only imagine.
Having a hard time landing something for the summer.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 3:39 PM EST
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yep, it's rough for us too
fortunately, my firm actually does something useful :-D
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 3:40 PM EST
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I still have a job
but morale is, um, low.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 3:44 PM EST
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at least you don't work in the housing markets
I did a legal internship on Capitol Hill last year, and one of the non-lawyers in my office had just gotten laid off from his 100k+ job on Wall St. and had to take a 40k job on Capitol Hill.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 3:53 PM EST
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Litigator
And I’m generally pretty busy – obviously not today, though. Corporate/real estate are dead and have been for months.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 3:54 PM EST
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Now I understand why this blog is of a higher quality
Lawyers
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 4:05 PM EST
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I'm a 3L
let’s just say the job hunt is ruff.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 3:41 PM EST
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i'm a 2L
wow, there are a lot of lawyers/law students on this site.
fortunately, i found a summer job at a firm before the economy completely tanked. but yea, i hear it’s rough for 3Ls…
by englishgrey on
Jan 15, 2009 9:05 AM EST
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It should scare you, a little
I landed a really good two-year clerkship, which is in its last six months, but no one appears to care all that much because basically everyone is short of work. The exceptions, I suppose, are my friends in criminal defense, personal injury and government lobbying. Those things will always take place.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 3:42 PM EST
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K Street awaits for you here in D.C.
As long as you’re into “Change”
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 4:06 PM EST
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Believe me
I’ve begun to hear D.C.’s siren song.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 4:16 PM EST
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Speaking of the lawyers
I’m en route to see the judge in traffic court tomorrow for a speeding ticket. Anything above 20mph in the state of Virginia is an automatic go see the judge. I was doing 75mph in a 50mph zone. Not only that, it was a construction zone. Fines are usually doubled.
Other than telling the truth, anyone have any advice for me?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 4:44 PM EST
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Tell him you were just keeping up with traffic.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on
Jan 14, 2009 4:52 PM EST
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hahaha (LOLing on the inside - I promise, you will never hear my LOL again)
Until the state trooper tells him that the traffic was trying to keep up with me.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 4:57 PM EST
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Maybe the judge will be female and
I can impress her with my nice suit.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 4:58 PM EST
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Best of luck to you, Uncle Lou
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on
Jan 14, 2009 5:03 PM EST
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Thanks friend
Uncle Lou – I like that. Any idea how I can change my blog name to: UncleLOUtheMETSfan ?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 5:06 PM EST
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Ask Eric
He might be able to do that for you (assuming that name is not already taken, haha).
Personally, I think “Uncle Lou” by itself rolls off the tongue a little easier. But you should do whatever you want with your handle.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on
Jan 14, 2009 5:15 PM EST
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Yes.
UncleLOUtheMETSfan is quite a mouthful. Then again, I’m not speaking it. I’ll see if it (UncleLou) is taken. If not, hopefully the HNIC can oblige me. Any derogatory comments I receive about how other bloggers may have UncleLou’s in prison or had an UncleLou do something shameful to them will be sent directly to you. There is no way I can handle that alone.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 6:53 PM EST
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maybe you'll get lucky
and the cop won’t show. Happened to a friend of mine two weeks ago.
by cjmulrain on
Jan 14, 2009 5:12 PM EST
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tangent
No 7-game packages this year, only 15, 40 or full season. This strikes me as a tacky move by the Mets in view of both the higher per-ticket price and the general economic situation; I actually received a sales call from them on my voice mail this morning and I’m going to tell them as much when I return the call this afternoon.
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:51 PM EST
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Also
they’re forcing some random weekday games into the 15 game weekend packages.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 12:51 PM EST
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of course they are
and if you want the 15-game package that includes Opening Day (which, to be fair, did sell out), you get 14 Monday-Thursday games with it
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:54 PM EST
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Can anyone tell me
why they did away with the seven game package now they do 15 I cant afford that, I had the 7 package last year and enjoyed each game that I went to.
by dmoney on
Jan 14, 2009 12:51 PM EST
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They're probably anticipating
selling fewer tickets due to the shitty state of the economy. The 15-game package takes some of the sting off of losing single-game sales. You’d expect they’d instead promote the 7-game package as a more affordable option, but hey, we’re just the fans.
by BobbyV_Incognito on
Jan 14, 2009 10:04 PM EST
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i wonder how revenues will pan out
in a recession when ticket price hikes are added to the indignity of indirect public financing of their new vanity-field, and the mets can’t get out of the middle of the NL east pack because their GM forgot to plan an adequate rotation or fill offensive holes.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:52 PM EST
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We also bring in one of the higher revenue totals
I’d be interested in seeing how much we spend, not just on players but total “franchise/band related operations”, relative to what we bring in compared to other big market teams. I know in 07 we were like 1st in operating income. according to forbes, which I believe means we had a lot of left over cash, where as the Yankees and Sox for example were both slightly in the negative. But I am definitely not an economist so I’m not completely sure what it means.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 12:37 PM EST
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Sorry two thoughts got confused
I meant to say I’d be interested in seeing how much total we spend in “total baseball related operations” relative to what we bring in in “franchise/brand related operations” compared to other big market teams.
by Gina on
Jan 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST
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Seriously, Lou.
You don’t know how air quotes work.
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:33 PM EST
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:-)
Well, I’m always up for being taught.
In this case, how do ya mean?
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:34 PM EST
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I was just using the quotation marks to add emphasis.
Not necessarily to point out any particular irony or euphemism.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:38 PM EST
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heh
you just read the same Wikipedia article I was going to cite
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 12:39 PM EST
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Hahaha!!
You bastard! You caught me!
I say we just let this one slide. “Agreed?”
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST
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try little stars
they’re fun
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST
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and apparently i have no right to comment
little stars make it bold, Lou
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST
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If we're not learning then we're dead man.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST
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If you're not careful
The HNIC Eric Simon will let you know about your formatting.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:43 PM EST
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Hahaha!
Let’s put it this way. It ain’t polite to say this word in the hood. Please direct all further questions to big brother (Eric Simon). See his profile.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:45 PM EST
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Come to think of it.
It ain’t polite to say the word anywhere.
(Unless you’re an African American comedian doing stand up at the Apollo.)
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:48 PM EST
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it's true, Don Cherry will
*@%$! you up!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:57 PM EST
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YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS!! GIF TIME!!

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:58 PM EST
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I have that jacket
in red
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:59 PM EST
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It...
would…not…surprise…me…if…you…did.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 1:00 PM EST
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If I were to try and pull off that look at work
I would probably be sent to Guantanamo.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 1:01 PM EST
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now that they're closing it
will you employees have to offer your spare rooms to detainees?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 1:03 PM EST
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Due to Obama's planned "belt tightening" we we won't even have spare rooms.
I think we’re going to make room for them here:

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 1:23 PM EST
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Not as fun as reading your quirky comments.
Screw it. I’m just going to speak plain old English and forgo any fancy quotations of any kind.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:41 PM EST
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i tried to save you from drowning
but i can’t swim myself.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST
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"A" for effort friend.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:43 PM EST
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Ollie and Andy
I have always been an Ollie fan I saw him pitch 5 times last year its always an adventure.
As far as Pettitte goes I would not mind having him for one season but he won’t take a pay cut I think he made 15 mil last year but not sure
by dmoney on
Jan 14, 2009 12:46 PM EST
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This thread makes it feel like a Friday. (I know, completely insignificant and random thought)
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:56 PM EST
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i think it shows that we gluttons for punishment
are ready for more!!
bring on baseball!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 12:57 PM EST
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Fo Shizzle my Nizzle
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 12:59 PM EST
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Hey I.M.
No one (in a sports context) makes me laugh the way you do. Well, except for The First Team On Fox. Steve Czaban is a riot.
"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 1:05 PM EST
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good cuz i like to keep
on the good side of homeland security.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 1:09 PM EST
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According to The Ropolitans
The mets are weighing making a run at Ben Sheets but are wary of his injury history.
by dmoney on
Jan 14, 2009 1:02 PM EST
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Metsblarg is referencing a report from Venezuela that
FMart was “let go” from his winter ball team.
Yaouch!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 1:13 PM EST
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Can anyone read Spanish
I tried to read the article all I got out of was he was hittin .195
by dmoney on
Jan 14, 2009 1:17 PM EST
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Taking a crack at the part that specifically talked about Fernando!:
The lineup of Leones de Caracas surprised everyone yesterday with the inclusion of the Puerto Rican Armando Rios in the batting order, in place of the Dominican Fernando Martinez, who was released.
“We saw a need to make a quick change and were able to bring in a player of Rios’s experience,” said the president of Leones de Caracas, Luis Avila, who confessed that before Rios they had [not sure what this next part means] dropped two other foreigners.
“It is difficult to bring in players at this point in the season, so we hope Rios will manage to inform it [not sure what this means],” noted Avila.
Caracas has given him [Rios] a strong spin of the roulette wheel [which I think is similar to “roll of the dice” as a euphemism]. They closed the book on the New York Mets’ best prospect, who recently turned 20, and replaced him with a 37-year-old veteran.
“The conditions of Martinez are there. [Not sure what this means.] He is a good player, but unfortunately could not perform like we hoped. Today [Tuesday] we informed him of the decision and he took it in a professional manner,” said the long-haired [?] director.
Martinez finished with a .160 batting average in this semifinal [maybe they’re in the playoffs? I’m not sure], with 4 hits in 25 at bats, in which he struck out 7 times.
The general idea is that Martinez wasn’t hitting well lately so they replaced him with a more experienced player.
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 2:55 PM EST
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Common practice for winter league
It’s not the minors, they want to win, not develop prospects. I love reactions on the wFAN, “trade him… .160 in the playoffs not clutch!”
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 3:04 PM EST
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Seriously?
Oh man. I am so glad that I do not listen to the FAN.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on
Jan 14, 2009 3:15 PM EST
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well if there were such a thing as clutch
getting tossed from your winter league would probably NOT be considered clutch.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on
Jan 14, 2009 5:47 PM EST
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I don't believe that's the case
I think the article said he had 4 hits in his last 25 ABs, but he had been with the team for longer than that.
The fact remains, though, that this is hardly something to panic about, as you said.
by JoshNY on
Jan 16, 2009 8:22 AM EST
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Nothing like coming back from lunch to see 80+ new comments
Time to (continue to) be unproductive at work!
by JamesK on
Jan 14, 2009 1:40 PM EST
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All other things being equal ($$), here is my list of FA pitchers in order of preference:
1. Sheets
2. Pettitte
3. Perez (basically in a tie with Garland)
4. Garland
5. Wolf
6. Braden Looper?? ugh
7. Petey
by JamesK on
Jan 14, 2009 1:48 PM EST
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Are you considering...
likely contracts? Draft picks involved? Or just overall talent.
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 1:49 PM EST
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I wish they had just taken care of business
and signed Lowe. Ugh!
"When the little children start to speak they once said 'Mama' and 'Papa', but with the fans we got they say the first thing, 'Metsie, Metsie, Metsie'." - Casey Stengel
by Prince on
Jan 14, 2009 1:51 PM EST
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I'd say...
1. Sheets
2. Pettitte
3. Garland
4. Perez
5. Wolf
6. Looper
7. Pedro
by squid92 on
Jan 15, 2009 7:59 PM EST
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Just overall talent.
Although considering contracts, draft picks, etc. I think the list would be similar. I need some time to think about that though.
by JamesK on
Jan 14, 2009 1:52 PM EST
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My order roughly guessing at salary
1. Sheets at $10 anyways
2. Pedro at 1 year at 5 million with incentives, I really believe he could put up a FIP around 4.
3. Wolf if he would sign a 1 year deal at 8 million.
4. Perez, 3 years for 8 million a pop, he won’t take that, so for anymore I’d rather take someone’s 1st or 2nd round with a sandwich pick rather than his projected 4.52 FIP at a bad price; for reference, Claudio Vargas had a 4.51 FIP last year, Figgy had a 4.26, Niese has a projected 4.32 (a bit optimistic)
5. I don’t think Pettitte would want to be a Met for two reasons, he can justify going to Texas for his family, thus, trying to save his Yankee legacy, which I really do think is important to him, second only to money anyways. I think it would take 13-15 for Pettitte as well as our second round pick.
N/A – I don’t want Garland, a combination of Figgy, Knight, Redding, Niese could put up what he does.
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 2:13 PM EST
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Was Pettitte offered arbitration?
I don’t think he would cost any picks if signed but I could be wrong. Sheets at $10 million seems a bit low, but if that’s what it takes, get him today!
by JamesK on
Jan 14, 2009 2:20 PM EST
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No
And Sheets was, but who cares – because we signed K-Rod, it’d only cost a 2nd rounder. Making Sheets over Perez an even better proposition, since we’d get a 1st rounder and supp. pick back for losing Ollie.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 2:32 PM EST
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Yeah, sorry about that
MLBtraderumors told me he was offered my mistake. But point still stands.
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 2:51 PM EST
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Sheets at 10 million is a bit low
but I’m not really sure what the market is for him as well as the extent of the bad news in the medical reports on him
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 3:01 PM EST
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On Wolf
Ken Rosenthal reports, “The Astros apparently made a three-year, $28.5MM offer to Wolf before pulling it back. Looks like he’ll be settling for less.”
Not sure which is worse, the Astros’ offer or Wolf’s failure to jump all over it.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 2:36 PM EST
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To be fair
A lot of players and their agents declined good offers. K-Rod declining the Angel’s offer was almost a bad choice. Varitek declining arb. was a really bad example. In fact, the Yankees, Diamondbacks, and Phillies knew what the were doing not offerieng Abreu, Dunn and Burrell arbitration, though the Phillies f’d that up siging Ibanez to that deal.
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 2:58 PM EST
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Freddy Garcia
John Heyman reports Mets are one of four teams with interest. Any thoughts on bringing him to Citi.
by dmoney on
Jan 14, 2009 3:38 PM EST
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I don't see why not.
But then we should be out on Pedro and Wolf and focus on signing Sheets and optionally Ollie.
by squid92 on
Jan 14, 2009 3:44 PM EST
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Projected FIPs of
4.45 to 4.61. Tough projecting a guy who hasn’t pitched in the past two years and might not pitch this season. Signed to a minor league deal no reason not to, signed to anything above 2 million boo.
For comparisons sake, Oliver Perez: Projected FIPs of 4.52 to 4.97
by Sokojoe on
Jan 14, 2009 3:43 PM EST
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ESPN INSIDER'S RUMOR CENTRAL STATES:
the mets are “weighing a run” at sheets, but are weary of injury history. also, they might “redouble their efforts” at signing randy wolf.
fwiw.
by goth brooks on
Jan 14, 2009 5:39 PM EST
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As if Randy Wolf
has been the model of good health.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 5:43 PM EST
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but for some reason
we’re not weary of Ollie’s craziness history
by JoshNY on
Jan 14, 2009 11:45 PM EST
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A question for some intelligent baseball minds
I’m reading some blogs, websites etc. saying things like “Lowe is a #3 starter, it’s good the Mets didn’t overpay for him.” My question is, how do you define a #1, #2, #3 starter?
Here’s my take: there are 30 teams in major league baseball. The top 30 best pitchers in the league are all #1’s because they could be the best pitcher (#1) on atleast one team. A team could have 3 of the top 30 best in the league (i.e. Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz), and technically they’d go 1, 2, 3 in their team’s rotation. But when describing their talent level, I’d call them all #1’s. Derek Lowe has been one of the top 30 pitchers in baseball the last couple years, therefore I’d say he’s a “#1”. Tell me why my logic is faulty.
P.S. This isn’t a question about what the word “ace” means. That’s a different topic.
by JamesK on
Jan 14, 2009 5:45 PM EST
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I'll take a stab.
While there are literal #‘s 1-5 on every team, when evaluating players in a vacuum, like in free agency or what you did with Atlanta’s old staff, think of that 1-5 in terms of tiers. So a guy who is deemed a #1 starter would be a #1 starter on the majority of teams in baseball. So while there are 30 MLB teams, that doesn’t necessarily mean there are 30 #1 level starters.
Now, how those tiers are separated depends on how you evaluate pitchers. Personally, I don’t think Lowe is a true #1 starter, although he isn’t a bad consolation prize. I guess I’ll leave it to someone else to get into player evaluation and how the tiers would be divided since I don’t have the time to do this justice.
by SQUAD on
Jan 14, 2009 6:16 PM EST
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I'm not sure
the meaning of the word “ace” and the meaning of the phrase “number 1 starter” are different topics. They are usually used interchangeably. When referring to #1 starters, I think people usually mean that the pitcher would be (or could be) a #1 starter on an elite team; we are therefore probably only talking about 5 to 10 pitchers. I don’t think anyone would say there are 30 “# 1” starters in the league. Definition is a matter of how people use the word; not a matter of immutable logic.
"Since we became accelerated readers, we never leave the house." - Los Campesinos
by Shomov on
Jan 14, 2009 6:19 PM EST
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Personally
I wouldn’t label them at all if I was building a team. Just try to get the best 5 guys you can. Clearly, though, there are tiers of ability – for instance, no one would put Derek Lowe on Santana’s level, even though both guys may be “#1 starters” on his respective team. Different people would use the terms differently; i think the word “ace” necessarily plays into this discussion. You have your shutdown aces, and you have your Derek Lowe-types. There probably aren’t thirty true #1 starters, in my opinion.
by jasondg on
Jan 14, 2009 6:23 PM EST
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Yeah, the term "ace" is something different altogether, for me atleast. There's only a handful of them.
I guess I can’t get past the fact that since there are 30 teams, there is a chance for 30 pitchers to be a #1 starter. And these 30 pitchers comprise the top 30 pitchers in baseball, regardless of team.
But someone who uses the term “ace” and “#1 starter” interchangeably wouldn’t see it that way, which also makes sense to me. Go Hoyas. Beat Syracuse.
by JamesK on
Jan 14, 2009 7:33 PM EST
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The later I stay up, the more I tend to believe that this is just the grand strategy to acquire Manny.
Perhaps I should get some sleep eh?
" Where I'm from, throwing up in your mouth is affectionately known as a mustard burp. "
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on
Jan 14, 2009 11:53 PM EST
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