Derek Lowe Loves Groundballs

by Eric Simon on Jan 2, 2009 7:37 PM EST Comment 83 comments

If Brandon Webb is the Zeus of big league groundball machines, Derek Lowe must be Hephaestus (or Apollo, if you wish), churning out a higher ratio of grounders to flies than any starting pitcher excepting Webb. Here are the top ten Machina Humus-Pila over the past four seasons among pitchers with at least 80 game starts.

Num	PlayerName	GS	GB	FB	GB/FB
1	Brandon Webb	134	1760	499	3.5271
2	Derek Lowe	135	1711	538	3.1803
3	Chien-Ming Wang	95	1272	460	2.7652
4	Jake Westbrook	96	1190	443	2.6862
5	Tim Hudson	120	1472	550	2.6764
6	Aaron Cook	102	1360	542	2.5092
7	Felix Hernandez	104	1134	487	2.3285
8	Roy Halladay	115	1416	643	2.2022
9	Paul Maholm	96	1009	525	1.9219
10	A.J. Burnett	112	1079	574	1.8798

Note that with the signing of A.J. Burnett the Yankees will have two of the game's most prolific groundball artists. More groundballs means fewer homeruns, more double-plays, and more opportunities for the defense to create outs. These are all good things.

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Another in a long list of plus attributes

for Derek Lowe. There is talk now that the Boras “mystery team” is the Phillies. The Mets need to make a solid offer after being exposed for low-balling Derek Lowe. Keep in mind also that Boras needs Lowe to sign for 45-50 mil to get Perez his 55-60 mil offer.

It is weird that Perez will earn more than Lowe just because he’s a young lefty but that is the baseball way.

by Major on Jan 2, 2009 8:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Is it really lowballing...

if you’re the only team making a serious offer?

by SQUAD on Jan 3, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thats the problem the Mets are not the only team bidding

by Major on Jan 3, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As a met fan I'd trade Reyes' range for Jeter's 4 World Series rings in a heartbeat

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, then you aren't considering the fact that Jeter wasn't the only player on that team.

SUPREMELY overrated.

by squid92 on Jan 4, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

4 rings, Hall of Famer, over 3,000 hits, clutch/team player....

Just because Jeter is winding down his career doesn’t mean ppl should shit on him. He still had a .300 average. Comparing a 35 year old hall of famer with 4 world series rings to a 26 yr old player that hasn’t reached his potential yet is likened to taking Mike Francessa seriously. Get a grip man Reyes isn’t even putting hall of fame batting numbers up yet. You cannot be a real baseball fan and tell me that Jeter is “SUPREMELY” overrated. I hate you for making me defend a yankee but right is right my friend.

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

but your original argument is stupid

because rings aren’t an individual achievement (let alone an attribute like range), they’re a team achievement. do we also get Rivera’s postseason performance and Bernie’s prime years and Tino’s awesome 1997 and Pettite’s early years and El Duque before he started getting old and all that other stuff that went into the rings? Luis Sojo has four rings too, don’t forget.

by JoshNY on Jan 4, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Are you an idiot? Does Derek Jeter own 4 WS rings or not?

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Since, by your criteria, rings don't matter

when judging which player is better, how then would you judge Patrick Ewing vs. Michael Jordan? Both made huge impacts on their teams, both made 10+ all star teams, both changed their respective position, both played on the drem team, both won college championships, so who is better? Which one is regarded higher than the other and which would you choose to start your team?

And BTW I’d take Luis Sojo over Castillo any day of the week. Matter of fact, I’d rather that entire Yankee team over the past two Met teams that CHOKED my two summers away thank you very much.

Rings matter! championship caliber players matter in the real world. Maybe not in the speculative blogosphere but it matters in the record books and that says who is better.

Jeter is not a better athlete than Jose Reyes but without a doubt he is the better player.

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Better yet. Would you want

Allan Iverson or Chauncey Billips. And please tell me you’d take their shooting percentage and range over the results their athletic ability has brought to their respective teams.

Superior athletic ability does not equal championship caliber ability. A player with that ability is not inferior to any player with any special talent you could think of.

I mean can we see Reyes play up to his ability is september before he his “better” than Jeter who “HAS” elevated his ability in October to help his team win 4 RINGS!!!!!

Its not like I’m comparing T.O. to Amani Toomer here for crying out loud Jeter has tremendous career numbers even without the championships.

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Give me Iverson.

Billups played on one of the most complete teams of recent memory. Allen Iverson is one of the best 50 NBA players ever and has never had anyone near as good as Rasheed Wallace or Rip Hamilton on his teams. His Denver years don’t count either because Iverson is past his prime. But give me the Answer in his prime over Billups every day and twice on Sunday.

by SQUAD on Jan 5, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The year Iverson took the Sixers to the Finals

I think it was 2001, was one of the greatest single season performances by any athlete in any sport, ever. That was an awful team that a 6’0 shooting guard led to the finals pretty much single-handedly. Unfortunately, I think he pretty much destroyed his body that season (much like DWade 3 years ago), and while he’s still been very good, he hasn’t been the same since. But you put that Iverson on the Pistons recent teams and they challenge the ’96 Bulls for best team ever.

by cjmulrain on Jan 5, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jordan v. Ewing

Jordan was the better player. He dominated the game in ways that Ewing never could dream of. He was the greatest player of his generation, and almost on his own, redefined the sport of basketball, the entire NBA, and created a dynasty. The rings he won are irrelevant. Jordan was a more complete, more dominant player than Ewing.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ewing, it could be argued, dominated every game he played in

except the ones he played against Jordan. Jordan just made more plays than Ewing. On talent alone Jordan is not light years better than Ewing. Had Ewing won once he would would be regarded much more highly than he is without that ring.

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But it wouldn't have made him a different player.

Like I said, the perception that he was a better player for having won a ring would be false. I don’t care that people would think he’s a better player b/c he got a championship; they’re wrong.

(Are we really going to drag basketball into this? I don’t even like the game.)

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL.

Here’s the deal. Most athletes that make it to any league and play at high levels in that league are not separated by much in terms of talent level. Championships are always factored in when comparing players. I say, I want the player who has the ability to make the play that others won’t in crunch time and that those players are the better players.

Will they have the best numbers? No

I want the players with the most rings. Bottomline for me. In relation to the Mets and their players, they have not produced in the clutch.

Carlos Beltran was the best CF in the league when played for KC but he didn’t get that recognition until he went to Houston.
Wins/losses, rings/no rings always matter in making comparisons.

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Did Beltran win a WS with Houston?

His low profile was helped by playing for a small market team that has a very low national profile. If you start chasing players because they have rings, you wind up with a middle infield of Luis Sojo and David Eckstein.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He didn't but he won more than he did in KC

so therefore he became more highly regarded. To the tune of 119mil

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't that a reason why Jeter is overrated?

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jan 5, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ewing

Ewing isn’t even one of the top 5 centers ever… and you could argue he isn’t top 10. Jordan was the best ever. End of story. Comparing Ewing to Jordan is comical.

by SQUAD on Jan 5, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

who are you putting in front of him?

by gogomets on Jan 5, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hmm

I think you could reasonably put him outside the top 5, but I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say outside the top 10. I’m looking at the Career Win Shares List on basketball-reference.com (disclaimer: I have no idea how basketball win shares are calculated) and it puts Karl Malone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, David Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem Olajuwon and Robert Parish above Ewing. The Win Shares stat doesn’t go back into his era but I think you could safely put Wilt Chamberlain at least above Ewing as well.

by JoshNY on Jan 5, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I cannot believe this is turning in to a hoops blog

See what we’re left with during a slow hot stove?

Wasn’t Malone a power forward? Off the top of my head, I’d put Shaq, Wilt, Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, and Kareem ahead of Ewing.

Pitchers and catchers cannot report soon enough.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 5, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

basketball-reference.com lists malone as a 6'9" forward, so yeah i'd say he played the 4.

anyway, i’d agree with yours and josh’s lists. I was curious to see the 9 guys squad would put ahead of ewing. i’ll maintain that he’s top 10, though. (currently, anyway)

by gogomets on Jan 5, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Centers better than Ewing (in no particular order)...

Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Moses, Bill Russell, Walton.

You could argue Robinson, Mikan, Parish, and even Willis Reed, but I would give Ewing the nod over those guys.

So like I said, definitely not top 5, and there is an argument that he isn’t top 10.

by SQUAD on Jan 5, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well I guess you guys don't read basketball mags or Scoops blogs

but hey if you read Jordans autobiography he said Pippen had more pure basketball talent than he did. Pick it up when get the chance

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you read Jordans autobio he said so himself.

along with other coaches like Phil Jackson and Pat Riley

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter doesn't have 3,000 hits

He currently sits at 2,535. He’ll probably get to 3,000, but he at least 2 seasons away. And don’t argue that rings automatically make him a better player. Ted Williams never won a ring. Piazza never won a ring.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rings don't make you appear to be a better player? Have you heard of one

Eli Manning QB of the New York Football Giants!!!

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rings might make one "appear" to be a better player,

but Bobby V appears to be saying that winning a ring does not automatically make one a better player.

'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 4, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And his argument is correct. However when did the paradigm change?

To some Scottie Pippen was a better pure basketball player than Jordan but who would you draft first?

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd say Jordan, obviously

But I know next to nothing of the NBA. That league has been basically one big waste of space to me for most of my life.

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 4, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You wanna talk about a waste of time? How about watching this sport?

" Well isn't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere! "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 5, 2009 8:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, the picture doesn't appear for me.

You’ll have to spell it out.

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 5, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jai Alai

" Well isn't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere! "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 5, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I've heard jai alai is actually a lot of fun to watch

very fast-paced and all that

by JoshNY on Jan 5, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

do tell

where have you watched it? the only place i’ve ever seen it shown is on the introduction to that grand cultural television series: Miami Vice

" Well isn't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere! "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 5, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I haven't actually watched it

I’m just passing along what I’ve heard. Here’s a Youtube clip. I have no idea how this works but it seems to combine the positioning of racquetball or squash, the reflexes to pick up a ball on a short hop of baseball, and the leverage-produced high velocity of lacrosse. Wikipedia says the ball can go up to 188 mph.

by JoshNY on Jan 5, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

About the only place I know of to see it

is around Miami. Either that, or fly to Spain.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 5, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, we invented jai alai.

And real men play it barehanded.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 5, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt it but...

" Well isn't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere! "

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 6, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I don't have my copy of

The Basque History of the World handy, but it does say that Basques traditionally play jai alai barehanded, or at most, wearing a thin leather glove.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 6, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wait, what?

did you just say Scottie Pippen was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan?

by JoshNY on Jan 4, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

To some ppl Pippen had more pure ability than Jordan.

I didn’t say Pippen was a better player

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No

No, no one would say that either.

by Joamiq on Jan 4, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

find me one of those "some people"

so I can figure out what they’re smoking

by JoshNY on Jan 4, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Um, no.

Nobody would argue that Pippen was a better basketball player than Jordan. Nobody. You kind of just destroyed whatever tenuous credibility you had in this discussion.

As others have said, rings do not automatically make someone a better player.

by Joamiq on Jan 4, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

People smoke many different substances but I never said that

Pippen is a better player than Jordan.

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Can you then clarify

your point? It is far from clear. Besides, baseball and basketball are radically different sports and I doubt the usefulness of any analogy you are trying to make,

"Since we became accelerated readers, we never leave the house." - Los Campesinos

by Shomov on Jan 4, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Especially

since Jordan and Pippen won the same number of titles.

"Since we became accelerated readers, we never leave the house." - Los Campesinos

by Shomov on Jan 4, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

To whom was Scottie Pippen a better "pure basketball player?"

And what does that even mean?

by SQUAD on Jan 5, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If Tyree hadn't made a miracle catch off his helmet,

or if Asante Samuel had held on to the interception the play before, would people still be talking about how great Eli Manning is? My point was that winning rings create the false impression that a player is somehow better than players who haven’t. This is particularly true in baseball, even though it’s nigh impossible for a single player to single-handedly win the World Series.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A single player cannot but a single play can.

Like the Jeter play at the plate against the A’s. That isn’t quantative, it is pure instinct within a player to make a play like Eli to Tyree. You want the player that has that “it” factor over the player that doesn’t.

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm pre-emptively declaring

this discussion dead if we start talking about ‘grit’, hustle’ and ‘heart’. Judging a player on the basis of a single play is utterly ridiculous. I’ve seen scrubs make astounding plays that no one saw coming, and I’ve seen great talents made basic mistakes.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!!! this is true but how do we know that Reyes has the same kind

of ability that Jeter has in the clutch to decree that Reyes is better?

My argument is that it is WAY too soon to say that Reyes is a better player than Jeter

by Major on Jan 4, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't think anyone said Reyes's career was better than Jeter's

but at this point, most people would rather have Reyes who is the 2nd best SS in the game behind Hanley Ramirez.

by JamesK on Jan 4, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

my head hurts from reading this thread

by englishgrey on Jan 4, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mine too.

by SQUAD on Jan 5, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you for summing this up.

Derek Jeter is still a borderline top 10 SS, but not a top 20 position player like Reyes.

by squid92 on Jan 10, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Starts

And he leads the list in GS. He would be even better with our defense than LA’s. Hopefully we’ll be seeing Pefrey’s name on the ‘09 GB list. I’m looking forward to seeing his 2009 season.

Lowe’s comments were fairly incredulous. But I have to believe Omar just need to add $8-10 million to the deal and he’ll sign. The Phillies getting him would certainly skew those projections we saw recently.

I really wonder who’s in on Perez at $60 million. Dodgers maybe? They need to spend some money on something at some point.

by whynot on Jan 2, 2009 9:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hopefully its the dodgers

So we get their first rounder since they don’t seem to be linked to any other type A’s.

by Gina on Jan 2, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dodgers make sense

Ned Colletti seems like the kind of GM to buy into the hype around Ollie, and they’ve got the cash to spend on him.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 2, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Colletti

Agree with that. Ned doesn’t seem to grasp the nuances of the game. And w/o Manny, the Dodgers look like a a team headed for a down season.

by whynot on Jan 3, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"More groundballs means fewer homeruns, more double-plays, and more opportunities for the defense to create outs. These are all good things."*

*unless your shortstop is named Derek Jeter

by cjmulrain on Jan 3, 2009 10:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

2008 UZR:

Jeter: -0.4
Reyes: -1.5

Cripes!

by Eric Simon on Jan 3, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

be that as it may...

with Reyes entering his age-26 season and Jeter entering his age-35 season, whose range would you pick going forward?

by JoshNY on Jan 3, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’d take any part of Reyes’s game over any part of Jeter’s, but I guess the point I was trying to illustrate is that despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, Reyes’s defense is far from superlative.

by Eric Simon on Jan 3, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Career UZR

Jeter: -37.5 (Fangraphs only goes back to 2002)
Reyes: 11.9 (+ a 0.2 at 2B)

Jeter’s last season with a positive UZR was ‘02, while Reyes has ranged anywhere from -3.2 (2005) to 8.7 in 2007. Given their respective histories, and Jeter’s advanced age, he seems much more likely to regress further than Reyes, although Reyes seems to be all over the map defensively. Put another way, Jeter is reliably crappy defensively, but Reyes could go either way in a given season.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

my point was less

that Reyes is a good fielder, and more that Jeter sucks. Reyes might suck too, but Jeter consistently sucks. Defensively that is. I still think he’s been a great hitter over the course of his career.

by cjmulrain on Jan 4, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

2007 UZR:

Reyes: 8.6
Jeter: -18.4

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jan 3, 2009 6:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

WOW

Assuming these ratings are reliable from season to season, Jose better get his game in gear. He is absolutely horrible during his pre-pitch routine so hopefully he’s been told to focus on it this off-season.

Dodgers payroll has gone from 119 to 65 as currently constructed. If they don’t land Manny, the natives might hunt McCourt down.

by whynot on Jan 3, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Money may be an issue.

McCourt made his fortune in real estate, and supposedly has been taking a beating during the past year. Granted, they do have the young players to construct a really great team (especially in the NL West), but it seems like the never realize the level of young talent they have.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You would think if money was an issue

They would be more willing to give the young kids a chance. but instead they’ve blocked some of their ml ready prospects by singing blake and furcal.

by Gina on Jan 4, 2009 2:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Chef likes those too. Wait...

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 3, 2009 9:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Don't you mean Schweddy Balls?

Seriously, you’d think that photo would be easy to find. But nooooo, it took nearly 20 minutes of searching IMDB and Google.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 4, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL! I'm gonna have to look for this skit on UTube. I never even knew of these "Schweddy Balls"

I tell ya what BobbyV. If we lose our jobs we can go into business teaching people how to post ridiculous and unnecessary gifs on blogs such as SB Nation.

I'm a baseball fan. What did you expect?

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Jan 4, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

derek lowe doesn't want our money

Free agent right-hander Derek Lowe has rejected a three-year, $36 million offer from the New York Mets because he is seeking $16 million per season, Jon Heyman of SI.com said on the MLB Network.

According to Heyman, the Phillies and Braves are Minaya’s ‘biggest threat for Lowe,’ while the Red Sox and a ‘mystery team,’ like the Brewers, are showing interest as well.

The Boston Globe reported that the Mets are likely to increase their offer to Lowe.

Mets general manager Omar Minaya was interviewed on the MLB Network and acknowledged having interest in Lowe, as well as Randy Wolf and other free-agent starting pitchers. Minaya didn’t mention Oliver Perez by name in the interview.

by goth brooks on Jan 4, 2009 12:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs