Mets Catching Situation
Time and time again this offseason I've heard people say that the Mets need to improve their catching. People seem to have little or no faith in Brian Schneider and even less in Ramon Castro (probably due to his oft-injured status). And though Castro's D is definitely below par and Schneider didn't quite live up to his defensive rep, it's obviously the offensive output that has Mets fans upset. And to my surprise this is becoming nearly a universal sentiment, even coming from various pretty knowledgeable sources. But I just don't get it.
Obviously we don't have Joe Mauer behind the plate here but not many teams do. Possibly it's Mike Piazza's lasting effect on Mets fans but we need to keep in mind that you can count the number of guys who can catch/call a good game while putting up a nice offensive line on one hand. The sad truth is that most teams have to settle for a below par hitter when looking for the right signal caller.
In fact, when you look into the numbers you'll start to realize that the Mets aren't quite in the dire straits that so many people seem to think they are. Lets start off with some general figures:
The # of catchers (w/ 300+ ab) with a lower batting avg. than Brian Schneider: 11
The # of catchers w/ less HRs than Schneider: 9
The # of catchers w/ a lower OPS than Schneider: 9
Not bad. Certainly not an emergency situation. Now lets look at the line of the aggregate "average major league catcher" in 2008:
14 hr / 73 rbi / .257 avg / .325 OBP / .390 SLG / .715 OPS
Compared to the line of the aggregate Mets catcher in 2008 (Schneider, Castro, Cancel, Cancel, Casanova & Gus. Molina):
18 hr / 73 rbi / .253 avg / .332 OBP / .380 SLG / .712 OPS
Basically, the Mets had a league average catcher in '08. I know as Mets fans we're used to the Piazza model of a slugging catcher but catchers are being counted on for less and less offense relative to the other positions, especially in this post-PED era. Here's a little chart illustrating that point over the last half century (courtesy of Baseball-Reference, that says 'OPS+ split by position"):
Catcher has gone from one of the less important offensive positions to the LEAST important one. Assuming we can find offense elsewhere, we shouldn't need to ask the catchers for anything more than league average production and to play good D. And assuming Schneider gets more reps, that D is slightly above average with a top 5 (1/3 CS%) arm.
I can already hear people saying "But why settle for average? Get someone who's better than average and we're ahead of the game." But what I've said all offseason is, who? Who is this mysterious slugging catcher that we can acquire?
Should we sign a FA catcher?
- Can Varitek be counted on to do any better than our existing options? Yes hes a good receiver/game caller but the guy will be 37, is in a severe downward trend and an NL team can't afford another auto-out in the lineup which he is quickly becoming
- Pudge? Another guy who is 37 and could easily get outproduced by Schneider
- Then you've got guys like Estrada & LoDuca who are guaranteed to perform worse than league average
Ok so it's got to be a trade then.
Keep in mind, if you want to trade for anyone of value get ready to start talking about Fernando, DMurph or Niese. Also if we did we'd have to do something with Schneider/Castro since they can't just be cut:
- Obviously the top guys like Mauer, Martin, McCann, Soto, Wieters, Pierzynski, Shoppach, Napoli, Iannetta and Navarro are off limits
- Bengie Molina is always thrown around but with just a marginally higher OPS and actually a lower OBP than Schneider in '08, a 35 year old catcher who costs players is not better than the existing options
- Everyone loves to say "Get one of the Texas catchers." You mean Saltalamacchia who hit 3hrs in 200abs? And doesn't catch well? And will cost a ton in prospects? Max Ramirez is a DH, not a catcher, and they're keeping Teagarden
- Ryan Doumit is probably available...if we want to give up Pelfrey
- V.Mart may be available with Shoppach in CLE but he is looking more like a DH at this point
- Then guys like Montero, Barajas, Hernandez, Olivo, Johjima who probably can be had aren't definite upgrades over our guys.
And that's it. There isn't anyone else. Suddenly Schneider/Castro doesn't look so bad.
Basically, what I'm saying is that our catching situation is fine. It's not great, but it's not bad either. Like I said, its league average, which is more than enough to win. I have just been amazed by how many people consider it one of Omar's cardinal necessities to improve the catching situation. Look at the Phillies last year, their starting catcher batted .219 with a .300 SLG. We can win with what we have so why waste the resources when they can clearly be used elsewhere?
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If there were better options out there
Sure, it might be nice to get a better glove/bat back there but it’s just not there this winter. The FA options are pretty terrible, unless we’re signing Varitek’s grit, heart, grinding and leadership (he’s a true leader blah blah blah). The team shouldn’t stand pat on mediocrity if there is a way to upgrade but I’m right there with you in that there isn’t a reasonably priced/good/talented alternative out there. In any event, the team has bigger problems to work on right now, like who else will be throwing the ball to our very average catchers. Get that done first.
I’ll also admit I haven’t heard much in the way of clamoring for change at the catcher’s position during the Hot Stove, although there is probably tons of it in last year’s game threads. I don’t know that folks around here were too endeared to The Schneid. We do love us some Hippo, tho.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 28, 2009 11:39 AM EST reply actions
to be honest
most of the clamoring i’ve come across has been from WFAN. but not just callers, even some pretty informed hosts like richard neer.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 28, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Weird.
I would have figured FAN callers to be pretty much all Manny (Ramirez, that is), all the time.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 28, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
evan roberts keep saying this too so the copycats chime in now and then
specifically, roberts idea is don’t sign manny as that locks omar up in case he needs to make a midseason move but then can no longer afford it. instead conserve funds and earmark them for use improving 2B and catcher. pretty asinine in my opinion but so is evan roberts.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 28, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think I like the Texas catchers a lot more than you do
But regardless of our opinion on them we don’t even have the pieces to get one. They won’t trade Salty to Boston for a package involving Masteron or Bowden, they either want both of Buckholz, what could we possibly offer them.
texas catchers
don’t get me wrong, all 3 have plenty of potential and i would love to have them in my organization. but i do NOT want them that bad to give up our top prospects when we’ve got solid catching options already. especially not for a player (salty seems to be the one on the block) who may or may not be better than our already serviceable options when we’re ready to win now.
plus i’ve always felt that salty is overrated. the kid strikes out A TON, doesn’t show great power for a big guy, being a big guy he isn’t very nimble around the dish and apprently his arm stinks. a lot not to like.
teagarden by all accounts is a stud defender and hes actually got surprising power from a smaller guy. i like him in the long run a lot more but it sounds like texas does too so we couldn’t get him anyway.
and max ramirez shouldn’t even be in this discussion anymore as hes not seen as much of a catching option going forward.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 28, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Ramirez is, in fact, a catching option.
He might end up being a Mike Piazza type, but catching is definitely not ruled out yet at all.
It’s possible he won’t be able to stick at catcher. It’s not certain.
ok but
how do you feel if you pay a premium in terms of prospects because of the lack of young catchers available only to find out that no, like most scouts thought he isn’t going to cut it behind the plate and you’ve overpaid for a power hitting first baseman, who are a dime a dozen?
by Rob Castellano on Jan 29, 2009 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, no doubts his trade value is down because of the uncertainty.
That’s not the same as ruling him out of the discussion as a catcher.
i think we should sign lo duca
just to fire him before pitchers and catchers report to st lucie.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
I don't think we should upgrade for this year.
But next year, we need to make an upgrade.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Well
Considering that Schneider and Castro will both be free agents, I’d say upgrading over no catcher at all would be something of a priority.
like Casey Stengel said
Otherwise, we’d have a lot of passed balls.
Well, yeah.
What I meant was upgrading from those two, since they’d be off the payroll and we’d have flexibility to sign whomever at the position.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
long term
obviously we’ve got to figure something out for the long term. at the end of this season both schneider & castro becomes FA’s. i don’t think its crazy to think about bringing both back on a 1 yr basis if nothing else pans out but its interesting to think about some other options:
- victor martinez is also a FA after ‘09. and CLE has shoppach & santana so probably won’t bring him back. this season will tell if he hit his wall last season. hes still not bad defensively though his recurring injuries seem to point to him shifting to a part time DH type role.
- bengie molina and ramon hernandez will be FA’s too. like i said in the post, neither is a significant upgrade over schneid today. hernandez plays putrid D, like possibly the worst in baseball. and molina will be 36. not enticing.
- like i mentioned before, CLE seemingly has 2 good fulltime catchers on the horizon. by all accounts, both are decent to bad defenders but both can really hit. i’d definitely investigate a trade.
- another intriguing team is SEA. they have catchers, in fact its about their only strength. they’ve got johjima locked up for 3 more season (ugh) and jeff clement is an option though a horrid defender and may end up at 1B/DH. but they’ve also got 2 very solid catching prospects in rob johnson and adam moore. both are nearly ML ready, both are great defenders, moore has the higher offensive upside so johnson could be available. even johjima was ok up until ’08, if he bounces back offensively he could be had for almost nothing and his D is still not bad. though he is 32 so thats not a great option.
- and of course theres the texas catchers. i think i’ve made it clear that i don’t love that option. they’re all ok but like Gina mentioned, TEX wants a buccholz level pitcher/prospect for salty which i won’t do. teagarden isn’t available and ramirez is a DH.
- ARI likes chris snyder and is shopping miguel montero. hes another young guy who put up some really good #‘s in the minors and hasn’t really gotten a shot yet. he wasn’t great last year but thats because ARI used him mostly as a pinch hitter. i could see him becoming a very solid option, plus hes young and is under contract for 4-5 more years. if they don’t hold us up (which they probably will) i really like that option.
- one more interesting option is from within, josh thole. he could be getting close by next spring. and though he probably won’t profile as an everyday hitter, if he can continue to get on base and improve that D a bit he could definitely be a solid platoon partner.
i really like the SEA option, either adam moore or rob johnson would be a fine fit IMO. both are young, at least one is probably available, both have 5+ yrs under control, both play good D and look to be at least average hitters. continue the platoon routine with a castro/thole type guy and i think we’re fine behind the plate for a few years.
Martinez
The Indians hold a 2010 option on Victor,so realistically you’re looking at 2011 before he’s available.
Maybe it's b/c Schneider hit 2 of his 9 HR's in the 6 games I went to last year
but I really could care less if we upgraded the catching position this year. Schneider and Castro are what they are, a league average platoon. It could be better, but it could be a lot worse. Considering what’s out there, I’d much rather upgrade LF or 2B, not to mention the rotation.
I also think a lot of Mets fans have been spoiled, not just by Piazza but by Hundley and Carter before them, and LoDuca’s 2006. I think a lot of people just assume that the Mets will always have good offensive catchers, which obviously isn’t the case.
spoiled
I agree — this came up in the Murphy discussion too, about the non-power-hitting 1B we’re also used to. The Mets have for so long gotten so much offense from non-traditionally-heavy-hitting positions that neither the organization nor its fans are always great at remembering that most teams have light hitters at the premium defensive spots, or (more importantly) that the team should be seeking more from the premium spots. I still think of the ‘99/’00 outfield with a shudder; without Piazza and Alfonzo providing ridiculously good production from their premium defensive spots, those teams would’ve been catastrophes at the plate.
'99 isn't the best example
The Mets got terrific production from Olerud at first and Henderson/Cedeno in the corner outfield spots. McRae was terrible but Hamilton had a terrific year in center after coming over from Colorado.
you're right
I keep forgetting that Roger Cedeño actually did have one good year in a Mets uniform.
2000
is a better example. The outfield fell off a cliff from ‘99, though they did get sparks from Benny and Timo. Ventura also fell off a cliff that year. And Olerud was gone. God, that ’99 team was so much better offensively than the 2000 version, yet the ’00 one is more remembered b/c they didn’t have to play the Braves in the playoffs.
Timo/Shinjo
what a duo
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
News to me
I haven’t heard anyone talking about the Mets’ catching situation… online or on WFAN.
Let’s put it this way: if the Mets don’t make the playoffs next year, it’s not going to be because of Castro and Schneider. Though I would like to see a little more Castro and a little less Schneider.
its not a fact yet
but i certainly wouldn’t give up my top pitching prospect in hopes that hes my catcher of the future.
heres the last BA writeup for Max Ramirez:
" Scouts question whether Ramirez can stay behind the plate, where his arm is fringy, his release is slow, his hands are stiff and his agility is below average…his future might be as a first baseman/DH/fill-in catcher. "
Anoither one from BA following the ’08 season:
" questions linger about whether he can stick at catcher. A former third baseman…he hasn’t had much success throwing out basestealers, erasing just 24 percent while giving up 52 swipes in only 44 Texas League games. "
and its easy to compare any bad defensive catcher to Piazza but 1. Ramirez certainly isn’t going to bat .360 with 40hrs like Piazza did to make up for that poor defense and 2. everyone remembers that Piazza’s arm wasn’t strong but the other facets of his D really were actually pretty strong as far as agility around the plate, receiving and game calling. so thats not really a great comparison.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 29, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
As I said above. . .
. . . ruling him out as a catcher is just plain silly and unsubstantiated. Lessening his value because there’s a question is not silly; it’s also saying something completely different.
Also, the fact of the matter is, whatever Piazza was and was not good at, he still comes out in total as a far below average defensive catcher. But he was still good enough to stick at catcher, and you don’t have to hit as well as Piazza to make that stick.
And I don't think anyone who expects MaxRam to be able to catch expects him to be close to Mike Piazza.
I certainly don’t. I never said that.
allright
you’re probably right, i won’t rule him out as a catcher yet but i will rule him out as a trade target as the rangers will want to be compensated as if he will turn out as a catcher rather than a far less valuable DH/1B which obviously is doubtful
by Rob Castellano on Jan 29, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Max-ram? Man-rod? Man-ram?
Too many to keep track of.
by James Kannengieser on Jan 29, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
-1
disagree on Piazza. I think he was abysmal receiver. As for game-calling skills, hard to tell. The pitcher’s always stuck up for him, but what do you expect? In my opinion, his only noteworthy skill as a catcher was his endurance—ability to produce with the bat through the wear and tear of the position.
as far as your larger point on max ramirez, i’m with you…
I disagree with your disagreement.
I liked the way Piazza called the game and I thought he was pretty good at blocking balls. Also, I thought he was great at blocking the plate on throws from the OF. He was good at catching the one-hop and making the tag. LoDuca was TERRIBLE at this (that one play against LA in the playoffs notwithstanding) and I thought he called a predictable game.
I agree with this
Piazza always stood in there on throws from the outfield, and I feel like he was usually in pretty good position to make plays. LoDuca was terrible at that like you said, and I wasn’t too impressed with Schneider last year. Also, Ivan Rodriguez was awful at that – I don’t think I ever saw him stand in and tag a guy out hard at the plate. He’s considered an all-time great defensive player solely b/c he had a good arm, which is kind of like considering Willie Parker an all-time great running back b/c he’s fast.
Very good.
Piazza was only criticized because his defense paled in comparison to his offensive skills.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Piazza would have been considered a very good defensive catcher if:
A) He didn’t have that terrible double pump throw to second. He actually had a pretty good arm, except he had this tendency to double clutch. And,
B) He had better footwork on throws to second. Perhaps this was the reason for the double clutch, he needed to allow his legs to get under him so he could deliver an accurate throw.
For whatever reason, he never seemed to have good mechanics on throws to second. Otherwise, I always thought he was quite technically sound and his reputation as a poor catcher was undeserved.
As long as other parts of the team are addressed namely LF & 1B I’ll be more than happy to see a Schneider/Castro tandem return.
I like the idea of Max Ramirez particulary his power and that he can be had for cheap because of theexpectation he’ll be a DH/1B.
agreed
thats the reason i didn’t like him, you have to pay as if hes a top flight catching prospect even though theres a good chance he ends up a 1B.
by Rob Castellano on Feb 8, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions

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