Amazin' Avenue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

Sherman's Second Plan To Top Atlanta

Recently at the Post, Joel Sherman threw some water on the John Lackey dreams of many Mets fans, instead proposing a series of buy-low candidates the Mets would be prudent to acquire. His criteria reads:

So if the obvious avenues are blocked, where do the Mets go? I am going to recommend three starters that have this in common: They are AL flyball pitchers with high-end stuff, coming off bad years (all had 5.00-plus ERAs).

He is overstating the effect of switching leagues by totally ignoring qualified National League pitchers, but is definitely considering some qualities the Mets should pay more attention to. Did his search yield anyone worth acquiring? 

Sherman's first suggestion is Jeremy Guthrie. He starts with a pretty convincing case against Guthrie:

Guthrie is coming off, by far, his worst season (10-17, 5.04 ERA), and his strikeout rate fell for a fourth straight year, never a good sign. 

His strikeout rate didn't just decline, it went from barely average to bad:

2072_p_season_full_1_20091006_medium

via www.fangraphs.com

Guthrie seemingly never had very good stuff, which would violate Sherman's high-end stuff condition. But wait!

But Yankee hitters continued to praise his stuff. 

That's a basically meaningless statement, since you wouldn't expect the Yankees to trash their opponents publicly. The assumption there, however, that a drop in "stuff" hasn't led to the drop in strikeout rate, is supported by Pitchf/x finding virtually no change in his pitches' movement. As for his extreme flyball tendencies, Sherman conflates some trends, and ignores most of his career numbers. 

He yielded the most homers in a season in the AL since 2006 (35). Fewer than half (17) came at home, but he was the second most extreme flyball pitcher among qualified AL starters in 2009. 

Guthrie, the third most extreme flyball pitcher among qualified AL starters in 2009, posted a 10.9% HR/FB, which is actually exactly equal to his career mark. In fact, the huge number of homeruns was the result of Guthrie going from a career extreme groundball pitcher to flyball pitcher suddenly. As a result, his homeruns allowed should only be expected to come down if you think he will revert back to a groundball pitcher suddenly, which is much less likely than simply regressing from some bad luck. While this expectation may be a decent gamble in itself, best-case Jeremy Guthrie is a groundball pitcher with averageish stuff, which is basically the opposite of what Sherman was trying to find. That being considered, Ruben Tejada and Bobby Parnell, Sherman's proposed package, is a horrible trade for a pitcher who is best case Pelfrey-lite and worst case, useless.  

For his second proposal, Sherman does something odd, pointing out how team-abuse led to Gil Meche injuring his arm, then quotes the organization that abused him to prove Meche would be alright:

But he was doing bullpen sessions late in the year and two Royals officials told me that if the team was in contention, he would have been able to pitch. 

Was it the same Royals official who said Meche's injury came from having the wrong "mindset"? Meche did have some bad luck with homeruns, the difference between bad 5.40 tRA and a not-good-at-all regressed 5.04 tRA*. There's precedent, however: throughout most of Meche's mostly forgettable Seattle career he posted similar HR/FB numbers. Bottom line: why trade for and subsequently pay $24MM dollars for two years of a huge injury risk, with higher-upside, cheaper, injury risks on the free agent market? Busted Gil Meche for two years or Rich Harden for one? Sherman fittingly proposes trading Castillo, because the Royals need fielding help, Sherman and Dayton Moore being the last two people on Earth who believe Luis Castillo plays anything better than horrible defense. 

His third idea, Ervin Santana, is like Gil Meche in that he did have some bad luck with homers last year, but has the larger red flag of arm issues and a big contract. Unlike Meche, however, Santana is a year removed from a great 6 WAR season and could be worth the risk. For that same reason, though, he'd likely cost more in trade. 

Not being one to criticize without contributing, however, I'll add three buy-low pitchers, who don't necessarily conform to Sherman's criteria (much like his own three). 

1. Felipe Paulino- Paulino went 3-11 with a 6.27 ERA, which likely makes Astros GM Ed Wade's eyes bleed. Underneath those superficial stats, however, Paulino had very good peripherals and an absurd HR/FB rate, making his tRA* an above-average 4.42. He's got blazing stuff, a very unfavorable home ballpark, and his value couldn't be lower. Trading for Paulino seems like a total no-brainer. 

2. Sergio Mitre- I think Mitre fits Sherman's rubric for a trade target better than any of his three. Mitre demonstrated middling stuff with improved control, but somehow gave up 10 homeruns in just 51 ML innings. With an ERA of 6.79, and an xFIP of 4.19, Mitre may be worth the rare cross-town trade. 

3. Braden Looper- Seriously. Looper surrendered a crazy 39 homeruns, playing his home games in hitter-friendly Miller Park. In Citi Field, Looper could likely replicate his solid back-of-the-rotation or better performances with the Cardinals.

Similar buy-low candidates: Ricky Nolasco (the king of bad luck: pitched like an ace, ERA like someone on the Mets), Brett Myers, Aaron Cook, Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, and Derek Lowe

0 recs  |  Comment 37 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

What is the league average tRA?

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Oct 20, 2009 6:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

felipe paulino is a pipe dream

why not steal homer bailey or phil hughes, they haven’t lived up to their billing either. chris tillman wasn’t very good for BAL, maybe we can go get him for cheap. joba perhaps? just because we’ve heard less about paulino since houston sucks doesn’t mean he’s any less of a top prospect or that his value “couldn’t be lower”. as much as i dislike ed wade, he did build the current phillies core so he’s not a complete moron.

paulino was considered their top pitching prospect coming into ‘09. yes, his #’s were bad in ‘09 but it was his rookie season, where he pitched only 81 innings no less. for us that would be like trading parnell just to get him off the team, which obviously no mets fan wants to do because he’s young, cheap and can hit 100. well those are all things that describe paulino as well and for a houston team even deeper in rebuilding mode and FAR cheaper than the mets theres no way they’re giving up on him so soon.

and i’ve read people say “well they got rid of nieve…” to try to justify paulino but nieve had appeared in 109 games between AAA and the majors and hadn’t had any success at either level before they dumped him. oh and he had TJ surgery. paulino has only 36 games above AA under his belt and did very well in AAA in ‘09 and like the OP mentioned put up solid peripherals in the majors. it’s going to take at least another year with poor results, maybe 2, before he becomes available.

by robcast23 on Oct 20, 2009 9:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Being the #9 prospect on a horrible farm system != Joba Chamberlain

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8331. None of those other players you mentioned were ever considered 2-star prospects. Btw, he’ll be 26 and has a longer history of arm troubles than Fernando Nieve. Also, Ed Wade is a complete moron.

by Sam Page on Oct 20, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That last sentence...

intrigued me until I realized how many other fan sites (not including the Mets) must have a similar sentence about Omar Minaya.

by Bieser's Balk on Oct 20, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

in early ’08 BP ranked Paulino a 3-star prospect, the same grade they gave Joba in 2007.

BA also ranked Paulino #2 ahead of Troy Patton for the Astros following 2007, the same year Patton killed AA and made the majors and began the year ranked nearly 20 slots ahead of Joba on their Top 100. so he probably wasn’t on that same level as the top guys but he was in the discussion at least.

and as far as i can tell the only arm trouble paulino has ever had was the shoulder weakness/soreness that caused him to miss 2008 but never led to surgery which looks like a result of the Astros jumping his ip total way too fast in ‘07. he’s always been brittle with minor stuff (groin injuries/back pulls) but i’d say nieve’s TJ was a lot more severe. really the only thing that matters is that nieve never got his FB velo back while Paulino has reportedly gotten all his stuff back (95.4mph avg. FB velo in ’09 which would rank 3rd in baseball if he qualified w/ ip)

again, the kid has limited experience above AA, just over 100ip in the majors, 5 years of contract control left and good if not great stuff, it’d be VERY early for the Astros to bail on him. yes, its a crappy farm system but he’s still probably their most valuable pitching prospect behind Bud Norris (seaton & lyles are only in A-ball and gervacio is a reliever) and they’re going to treat him as such even if he doesn’t stack up with the Baileys and the Tillmans, especially since they’re cheap as hell so what would they even want back, a young pitching prospect?

now i didn’t realize he was 26 since it doesn’t seem like he’s been in the prospect realm that long…but the issue is that he only started in pro ball at age 20 for some reason, not the usual 16-18 for int’l signees so his age really isn’t as bad as it sounds; beyond that he hasn’t even logged 500ip in pro ball yet. either way, i suppose that makes him somewhat more viable as a buy-low option and i’m not going to defend ed wade anymore than i already have so i guess anything is possible and it’d be a great move if it happened.

by robcast23 on Oct 20, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the difference is Joba's stock went way up

and Paulino’s went way down. No, I don’t think the Astros will give him away (well I kind of do), but this is as low as his value is going to get.

by Sam Page on Oct 20, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true

but value is the eye of the beholder. from the astros perspective, he’s still one of their top prospects, with a 100mph FB and 5 cheap years left. if you asked ed wade he’d probably tell you paulino has the same ceiling as joba, and if he were smart (which he’s not) he could even somewhat justify it.

by robcast23 on Oct 20, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Astros system is terrible.

And Ed Wade’s literally terrible at everything.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 20, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

id like to see nolasco at the back end of the rotation

I think he’d be a solid acquisition. I wouldn’t mind Cook or Harang either.

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 20, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harangatang 2010

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 20, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

and now that he’s into arb. years i’d DEFINITELY inquire about him. he’ll probably bump up to the mid $3M range next year, meaning he’ll likely be the 3rd-4th highest paid Marlin.

by robcast23 on Oct 20, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah he's got the potential for the 2 spot now that i think of who we have

Santana, Nolasco, Pelfrey, Ollie, and Niece/Maine… if only we could get rid of Ollie we could make that look like a pretty good rotation.

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 20, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

probably, he's got all the talent he needs

but putting him in front of santana seems wrong, although he could earn his way there.

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 20, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Word

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Oct 20, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You beat me to this, haha.

I was going to do this, mainly saying Santana was an interesting idea and that Guthrie and Meche were terrible choices,

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 20, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

two JOHAN santanas

believe it or not, it’s Ervin’s real name.

by Sam Page on Oct 20, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

THAT IS AWESOME

It’s a shame he’s not as good

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Oct 20, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he was pretty awesome last year.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 20, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know, that really would make it doubly awesome.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 20, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow, I was not aware of that

though technically, if he legally changed his name, then it’s his “given” name but not his “real” name.

now I really want the Mets to trade for him and then for him to change his name back to Johan, because two Johan Santanas in the rotation would kick a lot of ass

by JoshNY on Oct 20, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Especially since he's a righty.

Imagine the confusion. “Which lineup do I start? Johan Santana the lefty pitcher, or Johan Santana the righty pitcher? Who am I facing?!?!?”

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 20, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sadly

the only manager I envision being confused by such a thing is the one managing the Mets.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Oct 20, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sometimes i start with a realistic idea

like getting harang. and then i keep goign and expand it into us trading francouer/pagan for jay bruce/harang and get really happy.

:(

i’ve been trumpeting nolasco all year. though of course, everyone who is smart can see that.

NOLAAAAASCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

by firejerrymanuel on Oct 20, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Awesome headline

But I’m wondering why you think Aaron Cook is a buy-low candidate? Are there rumors he’ll get dealt? I know he had the shoulder injury, but he appeared to come back strong, plus it’s pretty clear that O’Dowd has been stockpiling groundball guys. I don’t know why he’d be eager to trade one of the few pitchers that has managed any lasting success in that ballpark.

by TedBerg on Oct 20, 2009 1:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was wondering this about Nolasco

I hadn’t heard any chirping that the Fish have a desire to move him, but then again, they are the Marlins, and he could be making 10% of their payroll next year.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Oct 20, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry to bust bubbles

There is no way that Florida trades Nolasco. He pitched very well the second half of the season and is ace material. From the looks of his contract he has not priced his way out of Florida yet and after this season I bet the Marlins think that they can compete for the division next year. Harang or Arroyo are more realistic options.

by Delgado on Oct 20, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Florida has a record of trading everybody when it's salary dump time.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one day they traded Hanley.

by fxcarden on Oct 20, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your right but,

Nolasco doesn’t cost them much and I wouldn’t be surprised if Florida adds payroll in the next two years for their “world series run”. Which will be followed by trading everyone. They have a history of winning world series also.

by Delgado on Oct 20, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolasco's due for a pay raise soon, though

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 20, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for what it's worth

I know a Marlins fan (shocking, I know) who says that it’s not realistic to expect them to trade Nolasco, even bearing in mind his arb year salary raises.

by JoshNY on Oct 20, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In any case

Omar doesn’t operate this way, but I’d love to see him list these pitchers by order of preference, go down the list, and get the best deal he can for one, while working at the same time on signing Lackey and a solid hitter at one of the non-3b corners.

By the way, anyone have any ideas for the bullpen?

by SeanSchirmer on Oct 21, 2009 12:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Start posting about the Mets »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

The_buddha_by_lord_karsus_small
2009 Mets Gangsta and Grission Awards

Recent FanPosts

Small
AAOP - It's Late, But Still Good
Small
AAOP: A new outlook...
Me_go_mets_small
AAOP: Just get Pujols
Small
AAOP: Supplementing the Core
Small
AAOP
The_buddha_by_lord_karsus_small
Grissionometer
Misc_007_small
Madoff, Backman, and an Old Baseball Jacket
Images-1_small
AAOP. The Way to fix the mets roster without causing to much damage to their minors system (batting)
Axolotl_small
This Is What Is Wrong With WAR
Small
AAOP: Pitching wins.

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Marty Noble: Glavine Claims Young Mets Weren't Offended By Losing
WAR analysis of AAOPs

Recent FanShots

No Matt Holliday or Jason Bay apparently means Adrian Gonzalez
Wallace Matthews says Mets should look to 2011
This idea looks familar
LoDuca seeking work
AFL: Havens continues to rake
Nick Evans catching in the bullpen plus a little bit of BP. I think I am a bit generous about his...
Marty Noble has no idea what Sabermetrics are.
Kottaras Waived, Claimed
Is it really that tough to play in New York?
Scott Moviel AFL video

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Sponsors


THE BIG GUY

Aa_avatar_small Eric Simon

THE INCREDIBLES

Blackfish2_small Alex Nelson

Cj_small Sam Page

Best_infield_ever_small James Kannengieser

THE NEWS GURU

Wrightfront_small Joe Budd

THE POET LAUREATE

Hamheadshot__1__small Howard Megdal