Bullish on 2010?
What is a realistic forecast for the 2010 Mets season? Will the Mets be a contender or not? Is it possible for a Met fan to answer this question without a "hope springs eternal" mindset? Right now the state of the Mets is directionless and full of uncertainty. In the Godfather Michael Corleone removed Tom Hagan with the explanation of, "You're not a wartime consigliere." That question has to asked of Omar Minaya. Is Minaya a championship General Manager? Based on the last three years Michael Corleone would have removed Minaya long ago. But he's still there. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Are we to expect Omar to make different decisions or more of the same? The player situation is precarious. The pedigrees of Santana, Wright, Beltran, and to a lesser degree, Reyes, cannot be disputed. But Reyes will remain a question mark until he returns to the field. Wright's Jekyll and Hyde season; is this the real Wright or just an aberration? It can be argued that without Wright and Reyes playing at a high level in 2010, nothing else this team will do will result in a different outcome. I haven't even addressed the pitching, corner outfield, first, and second base positions. Based on the Mets previous track record, and the teams unanswered questions, it's hard to be bullish on the Mets near future. Omar & Co. need to address the future of the club and not take unnecessary risks for '10.
0 recs |
37 comments
| Add comment
Comments
We can run some numbers to try and figure out if the Mets can contend
First, lets be positive, assume that the “big four” all return to something like pre-2009 form, and that Johan Santana, David Wright, Carlos Beltran, and Jose Reyes average 5 WAR each. A team of replacement level players can be expected to win something like 47-50 games, so that would jump us to 67-70 wins. So to reach 95 Pythagorean wins, the rest of the roster has to generate about 25-28 wins. If we assume 28 to be conservative, that’s 28 WAR / 21 remaining roster spots = an average of 1.33 WAR per additional player. We can do better though. Seven of those roster spots go to relievers, and five to bench players. Neither position figures to have many 1.33+ WAR players.
18 players made up the group of what was at any time seven RP roster spots in 2009, and they totaled 533.2 IP. We’ll throw out Nieve, Figueroa, and Misch since the vast majority of their innings were as SP. The rest of the group totaled exactly 1.0 WAR (That’s totaled, not averaged. Yuck. Perhaps its slightly more, since I can’t distinguish Parnell’s SP WAR from RP WAR, and he was much more effective as a reliever, but still, yuck). Divided by seven (for the seven roster spots occupied by a reliever at any given time), that’s about 0.14 WAR per spot.
If we run the same exercise for 2006, when the Mets actually had a very good bullpen, we get a total of roughly 6.9 WAR, or just under 1 WAR for each of the seven roster spots. Obviously, still less than 1.33 WAR per roster spot, but much closer.
Even before we get to the bench, we can see the impact the difference of a decent bullpen, any roster’s most volatile unit, can make. If the pen totals just 1 WAR, combined with the “big four”, that leaves 14 remaining roster spots to account for 27 WAR. The rest of the roster needs to average just a tad under 2.0 WAR per roster spot. Without at least two or three more legitimate star players (4+ WAR), this will be virtually impossible after accounting for the five bench spots. If the bullpen instead gets you about 7 WAR, then the other 14 roster spots need to get you only 21 WAR, or a much more reasonable 1.5 WAR per roster spot.
The bench is a bit more difficult to define in terms of discrete roster spots. We can all agree that the bench exists, but how do we account for platoon players? How about guys who flirt back and forth between the bench and the everyday lineup? Older players who need rest? For the sake of argument, I’m going to go slightly conservative, and assume the average bench roster spot should produce about 0.3 WAR over a full season, which is only slightly better than a replacement player you might call up from the minors.
Working under this assumption, in the “strong bullpen” case, even if the five bench spots average 0.3 WAR, that leaves 19.5 WAR left to generate from the nine remaining primary players (4 SP, 5 starting position players), which breaks down to roughly 2.2 WAR per spot, or roughly average production over a 162 game season.
In the “weak bullpen” case and an average of 0.3 WAR per bench spot, the rest of the roster needs to generate about 25.5 WAR, which spread among 9 players is 2.83 WAR per spot, requiring multiple additional players who are considerably above average. This isn’t impossible as a general thought, but very unlikely given the team’s current roster and organization’s spending budget for the offseason.
Now lets take this a step further. Of the nine remaining roster spots not covered yet, we have players at many of those positions guaranteed or virtually guaranteed jobs. We can assume either Jeff Francoeur or Angel Pagan will likely be the starting RF, and between them, we have reason to hope for a legit 2 WAR player (perhaps better, and a little spare change for the bench maybe, but the 2 WAR estimate seems “fair” at best, so lets not go crazy adding extra decimal points to the bench). Luis Castillo may take a bit more optimism, but lets give him a repeat of his solid 1.5 WAR season. Omir Santos was a reasonable 1.0 WAR catcher in part time duty, so if we combine him with an equal catcher, and subtract 0.3 WAR since at any given time one of them will occupy one of the “Bench” roster spots, that’s 1.7 WAR. Big Pelf was 1.8 WAR, again, lets be generous and bump him to 2.0 WAR. Lets also assume that Ollie bounces back, and even give him a little positive value, 0.5 WAR. That leaves us with this fairly generous estimate:
C – 1.7 WAR
2B – 1.5 WAR
RF – 2.0 WAR
SP – 2.0 WAR
SP – 0.5 WAR
Total – 7.2 WAR
Average – 1.44 WAR
Remaining roster spots – 4 (LF, 1B, SP, SP)
a. Remaining wins to 95 with a 1 WAR bullpen – 18.3
b. Remaining wins to 95 with a 4 WAR bullpen – 15.3
c. Remaining wins to 95 with a 7 WAR bullpen – 12.3
Matt Holliday has been 5.6 WAR, 6.2 WAR, and 7.6 WAR in each of the last three seasons, respectively. So if he were added, we could assume conservatively 5 more WAR with three roster spots remaining. So a, b, and c above would look like this with Matt Holliday signed to play LF:
a. 13.3 WAR remaining to 95
b. 10.3 WAR remaining to 95
c. 7.3 WAR remaining to 95
Three roster spots to go. If we assume a John Lackey/Aaron Harang-esque SP addition, that’s about another 3 WAR. Now we’re at:
a. 10.3 WAR to 95
b. 7.3 WAR to 95
c. 4.3 WAR to 95
And we have 1B and SP left to fill. There are options in place for both positions, namely Daniel Murphy for 1B and John Maine and Jon Niese for SP. Since at this point the Mets do have six positive value starters, we can even be generous and add another 1 WAR in replacement SP innings. Still, none of these three figures to be more than average, or about 2 WAR given a full or nearly full season of playing time, and that’s being very generous to all three. It could very well be enough….if the Mets could somehow piece together a 7 WAR bullpen again. That’s by no means impossible given the volatility of bullpens year to year and a few cheap and shrewd relief acquisitions, but its hard to imagine the organization having enough money for a big impact acquisition at this point. With a more mediocre bullpen, in the 3-4 WAR range, which seems quite plausible, the team will likely be right back somewhere in the 88-90 win range they spent 2007 and 2008 in. With a 1 WAR bullpen, they’ll likely be at or around .500, but anything better cannot be said without an incredibly startling improvement from a player or two already in the organization.
In conclusion, I’d like to stress that my conclusion is first and foremost NOT about how “bullpens win championships”. Simply that relief pitching, more than any other aspect of a baseball roster, is subject to the law of small numbers, and even a bullpen expected to produce about 4 WAR still has a decent chance of producing either 1 WAR or 7 WAR. But with some shrewd pickups, minor tweaks, and a little luck, this roster is not so far out of the realm of contention that we should already give up on 2009. It will require likely require at least one “star” addition to the roster and another “near-star” addition to the roster, in this example, Holliday and Lackey/Harang, and then even a bit more. And it will also require us to own up and understand that having Murphy at 1B AND Maine/Niese as the “#4” SP probably isn’t going to cut it, but one or the other might suffice. We don’t need a start 1B or the best #4 starter in the league, but at least one of those spots need to be filled by an average or slightly above player. And of course, all this is assuming “the core” can be what the were before 2009, which at this point, is a large unknown, but hardly an unreasonable assumption. In fact, for roster construction, its probably a necessary assumption, since if two of those guys fall way short again, it does seem virtually impossible that the team will be seriously competitive unless they are replaced with an equal or better player.
One more note: Its important to distinguish between the WAR of a player, say David Wright, and the WAR of a roster spot, say starting 3B. If I assign a specific player to a specific position and give them a WAR total, I’m generally doing my best to factor injury/attrition into the mix, in which case, for the given roster spot that player occupies, I’m assuming a replacement level replacement, or a 0 WAR player. All of this math is a little fuzzy for this reason, since lots of the elements I’ve labeled constants or limited outcome variables are actually non-limited outcome variables. But, I still think as an exercise, something like this proves somewhat insightful for what we should expect/hope to happen in the coming months to return our favorite team to respectability.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Oct 22, 2009 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
I was scrolling down
and when I realized the comment took up more than my screen, I knew this was a comment by Meddler.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Oct 22, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, you're saying that bullpens wins championship
Well seeing that most of the ‘06 bullpen will be available in FA next year, I’m changing my offseason plan.
1. Sign Darren Oliver from the Angels giving them our second round pick
2. Sign Wags from Boston giving them our third round pick
3. Sign Chad Bradford from retirement
4. Sign Duaner from oblivion
5. Re-aquire Aaron who might be non-tendered
6. Cuddle with Felicano
Result: Chamption
by Sokojoe on Oct 22, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
result: Carlos Beltran choking in the NLCS
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Oct 22, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know
Beltran had an OPS of 1.054 in the NLCS. But I know, he took strike 3…
by Jsz on Oct 26, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was being sarcastic
I love Carlos Beltran and no amount of striking out on wicked curveballs will ever change that
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Oct 26, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought so
I knew to expect better of you, cjm, but an irrational/emotional part of me would just be slightly better off if Voltron swung… Just sayin’ in general he hit well that series.
And I agree, love Beltran too.
by Jsz on Oct 26, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, yea definitely
I wish he went down swinging, but I can’t blame him for not. That’s one of those situations where you just have to give Wainwright all the credit – he made the perfect pitch.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Oct 27, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Oct 22, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I was about 400 words into a response when I accidently closed the wrong tab.
You can probably guess what I was going to say.
by Sam Page on Oct 22, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to your point about the 1 WAR bullpen and "shrewd moves"
I present Darren O’Day.
- O’Day posted a 1.4 WAR season in ‘09 (that’s right, .4 more than the entire Mets ’pen).
- He was the 11th most valuable non-closer RP (with 0 GS) in baseball.
- Of those 11, O’Day was one of only 6 who earned less than $1M.
- And of those 6, O’Day is one of only 2 with five years of contract control left (Luke Gregerson is the other).
So yeah, we REALLY blew it letting him go. But this really underlines your point of filling the bullpen with shrewd moves and the Rule 5 draft is one of the shrewdest.
by robcast23 on Oct 22, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more thing to consider WRT Bullpen
I did a study awhile back and it shows that good bullpens correlate very strongly with Pythagorean over achievement. I don’t believe this is counter intuitive. When you have a good bullpen, you win close games. A lot of times investments in the bullpen can have impact beyond WAR.
Though paying market rate for top-shelf closers is about the dumbest way possible to do it.
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
by PWHjort on Oct 23, 2009 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm worried about Johan and K-Rod's declines
They’re peripherals have been getting pretty shaky. I’m optimistic overall but still nervous.
by TheBigStapler on Oct 22, 2009 4:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to worry
I believe Johan will be fine next year. On the basis that he recovers completely from his surgery, Johan should have a fine 2010. K-Rod? He’s not Mariano (no one is), but he’s still very good. Our closer will not be our problem in ‘10. I’m more concerned with our rotation and the question mark positions (1B, 2B, RF, LF) that I mentioned in my OP. I also want to see whether Reyes will have lost a step or not in spring training. His game is based on his speed. Water down his speed and he isn’t the same dynamic player. Wright needs to cut down on his strikeouts. The power aspect of his game doesn’t concern me too much. If he hits .300 or better and cuts his strikeouts down, he’ll be fine.
by boomer61 on Oct 22, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I finally read the complete post, and I have to say
great work by Meddler, but ( cue sarcasm music ).
Minaya and Jerry account for about -7 WAR, so 95 wins becomes 88 wins.
Jeff accounts for -2 WAR, so now we’re back at 86 wins, sucking wind.
For the two reasons above, I lobby for this analysis to be recalculated to a 110 win final result, this way, even they can’t fuck it up.
I just don’t want to be sweating bullets on 10/1/2010 as we play the Uri Natinals.
by fxcarden on Oct 22, 2009 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is only tangentically related
but John Lackey is making himself a lot more expensive tonight.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Oct 22, 2009 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
and Yankee fans will have to live with “Good A.J” “Bad A.J” for 5 more years
Gangsta
by Jadden Hopkins on Oct 22, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roll those bones!
boomer61 wrote:
" Omar & Co. need to address the future of the club and not take unnecessary risks for ’10."
Au contraire, my friend. Omar needs to address the future of the club and ALSO take significant (what you might call unnecessary) risks for 2010. Particularly since Davis, Thole, Jenrry, Holt et al won’t be contributing much until 2011 at the earliest, and given how far the Mets are behind the Phillies (and Braves) in terms of talent, we’re going to need some long-shots to pay off in 2010. The good thing about taking flyers on injury risks is you can usually get those guys on one year deals, meaning they won’t block our young guys. Seems to me that while we should be gong after the likes of Holliday or Bay, and Lackey, we should also be doing risky things like re-signing Delgado to a one year incentive laden deal, taking on pitchers with arm woes who have a chance of performing well in 2010, but might also tank. This is the year for that kind of thing, otherwise we’re wasting one more year of our core.
by SeanSchirmer on Oct 22, 2009 10:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I could see Davis contributing pretty decidedly come the middle of '10.
He’s looking pretty good now.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Oct 23, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Risks?
I think you take risks when you have a team on the cusp of contention. I am usually an optimist, but I see a Mets team that has missed its window of opportunity. There are questions about Wright. Is he really a top shelf player, or just a good player? Is Reyes going to be back next year, and if he is, will he be back to normal? Is Beltran beginning his decline physically? Santana is the lone bona fide starter we can count on. The ‘10 Phillies, even if they are just carbon copies of ’09, will be better on paper than the Mets. I don’t say these things to paint a bleak picture, but it should serve as a warning against taking big risks on the FA market. You take those risks when you think you can win.
by boomer61 on Oct 26, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a down year, Wright was still an All-Star.
Uh, yeah, he’s a top shelf player.
Beltran played well at the end of this year. I don’t think you really have to worry.
I believe Reyes will be back to normal, but you can’t be sure on that one.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Oct 26, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being Bullish or Putting Up With Another Yr of BS
I cannot agree with you more. I have been a Mets fan since I was old enough to decide which game I wanted to watch on Sunday. Omar has to be “made an offer he can’t refuse”, that being, produce a championship team or your career sleeps with the fishes. I have to admit he’s made some pretty bold moves, and I don’t want to toot his horn, but getting Beltran,Delgado,KROD and Johan to make a move to Flushing instead of the Bronx, shows he’s got some pull.
You left out catching and middle relief. We need a strong catcher, like Gary Carter strong, or Mike Piazza strong. The Mets haven’t had a good backstop since MP stepped out from behind the plate, and please don’t get me started on the bullpen and middle relief. It’s starting to remind me of the Rays, the only difference, the Rays have made it to the World Series more recently.
by BigJohnInFla on Oct 22, 2009 11:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mauer is the only catcher that good in the game right now, so don't hold your breath.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Oct 22, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Omir Santos
He just is. Because.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 24, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Mets have had two of the best 10 catchers in baseball history.
It’s pretty hard to get someone as good as Piazza or Carter.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Oct 23, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the Rays are a well run organization that have good players
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Oct 23, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
by Kevin H on Oct 23, 2009 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To turn this thing around...
…in a hurry, you are going to have to have a GM that will be aggressive and make
unorthodox moves. Unfortunately we have Minaya, and he has drained the minor leagues.He can be aggressive, but not in the way the Mets need to be. In a way,
I hope they don’t do it, but it could be worth trading Wright if they can get the right
package in return, say in a trade with Tampa Bay, who has a load of younger
players. Reyes and Beltran have decreased in value, and wouldn’t bring in as
much as Wright would.
Fortunately, we have Minaya who has neither the brains or b@lls to pull off such a
move so DW will be in CitiField on Opening Day.
by burtweidemeier on Nov 4, 2009 3:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by 

















