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Around SBN: My First Fight: Diego Sanchez

The Big Book of Available Pitchers

Think of this as an 'Idiot's Guide to Available Starting Pitching in 2010'.  I'd been sifting through like 5-6 different sources with a few weeks now and eventually I thought I'd just put it all together.  Hopefully it'll serve as sort of a comprehensive guide to refer back to throughout the winter.  I'll do varying degrees of stat-based analysis, pros & cons, risks, all based on how relevant each player is; all with a bit of a Mets slant of course.  Free agents on top, trade targets down below.

Star-divide

 

_________________________________________Free Agency________________________________________

*in alphabetical order

Erik Bedard - '09 WAR:  1.9

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 83.0 2.82 3.55 9.76 3.69 8 0.217 0.283

When he's out there the stuff is still great (FB velocity up over one full MPH in '09) and the numbers back that up. but hes definitely too much of an injury risk to rely on. 

Risks:  Coming off his second shoulder surgery in a calendar year, health is the big BIG concern.  To make matters worse, it was discovered to be a torn labrum, baseball's most debilitating pitching injury.  BP injury-guru Will Carroll figures only 3% of such cases return to previous levels of performance.  He's pitched <85ip for the last 2 years and only might be ready for ST.  Risky enough for you?

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Aroldis Chapman

Maybe the most intriguing pitcher available this offseason is Cuban defector Aroldis Chapman.  In case you're just tuning in the kid is 21, lefty and possesses a VERY good fastball.  Obviously the upside of a lefty who can regularly hit 100mph is amazing but IMO the risks here outweigh the benefits by quite a bit.  For better or worse, Chapman reminds me of a young Oliver Perez in a lot of ways.

Risks:  He will no doubt be looking for a Daisuke level contract, upwards of $50+M and 5+yrs.  Yet Chapman doesn't have nearly the same polish that Matsuzaka had and even Daisuke hasn't been an overwhelming success.  What's more, Chapman has problems throwing strikes and in his last season in Cuba posted a 4.03 era.  Things will only get worse in his first year(s) here until he learns to make adjustments, assuming he ever does and thats a lot of money to throw away. 

*Watch Chapman pitch against Australia's WBC team here

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Doug Davis - '09 WAR:  1.7

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 203.1 4.31 4.84 6.46 4.56 25 0.261 0.294

Here's a "Plan B" kind of guy.  Although I must say, his VERY consistent ability to post low to mid 4 ERA/FIP's shouldn't be overlooked.  Nor the fact that he pitches 200 innings every year.  And he's got a damn good curve but he certainly won't solve our Base on Balls problem.  On a cheap, 1yr deal he would fit well into middle of a rotation.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Justin Duchscherer- '08 WAR:  3.0

Remember when this guy posted a 2.54 era back in '08?  Well as quickly as he appeared he vanished, missing the start of the '09 season with elbow pain and he never made it back, due in part to a diagnosis with clinical depression.  Realistically Duchscherer can't be counted on to take a rotation spot, who knows where his head will be come ST.  Not only that but even in his that fateful 2008 (his only season as a starter) he made only 22 starts due to day-to-day stuff and spent most of the season before on the DL requiring hip surgery.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Jon Garland - '09 WAR:  2.4

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 204.0 4.01 4.48 4.81 2.69 23 0.281 0.302

Could he be had for a cheap 1-2yr deal? Yes.  Will he pitch a ton of innings and avoid injury?  Yes.  But the bottomline is that the guy pitches to a 4.50-5era year in, year out and while I'm willing to take a hit on performance for good value, this is kind of a stretch.  While those numbers might get a bit better at Citi, I'd say he's a 'Plan B' at best.

Risks:  Just about the only risk is his performance bottoming out.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

 Rich Harden - '09 WAR:  1.8

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 142.0 4.09 4.35 10.91 4.28 23 0.235 0.304

Of course we all know about the enticing stuff (see: league-leading swing and miss rate) but the guy has topped 180ip once in his career.  In fact, with his issue getting deep into games due to pitch counts, his spotty health and his excellent fastball, he reminds me a lot of John Maine.  Beyond health, his poorer final totals this year came as a result of by far the worst HR/FB of his career.  However, since the rest of his ratios didn't drop too badly one can reasonably expect more typical results next year.

Risks:  Health.  In 6 full seasons, he's stayed healthy enough in three to be a ~4 WAR pitcher.  So basically he's a 50/50 shot to be an excellent contributor which for a cheap 1yr deal would be acceptable but probably not your first option.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Tim Hudson

Hudson only becomes available if the Braves drop his $12M option this winter, which seems unlikely according to Jayson Stark.  Hudson returned in September from TJ and looked strong; his velocity returned to pre-TJ levels and all of his ratios matched his past few seasons.  There is already some talk that Hudson and the Braves will work out an extension past 2011 and as Hudson wants to stay in ATL, he's already talking hometown discount.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

John Lackey - '09 WAR:  3.9

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 176.0 3.83 3.73 7.09 2.4 17 0.263 0.309

Lackey is probably the best/most reliable arm available this winter.  But even he has his warts:  Some people say his stuff is declining, numerous arm injuries over the past 2 seasons, he's on the wrong side of 30.  But the big issue here for me is the contract.  He rejected a 4yr, $60M offer by the Halos coming into this season so he is clearly looking for an ace-level contract.  And as much as I like him as a top of the rotation work horse, I don't like him that much.  Jon Heyman had an anonymous GM guesstimated a 5yr/$75M contract for Lackey.  Would I sign him?  Of course, but do I?  Probably not unless all other holes are filled very creatively.

Risks:  Don't worry about the stuff, he's still going strong.  But he has spent 74 days on the DL with elbow injuries in the past 2 seasons.  Way too much of a concern to give him 5 years.  I'd love to see him behind Johan in 2010 but you just can't sink yourself into a 4-5yr deal unless it's a really special talent with little risk attached which Lackey is not.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Jason Marquis - '09 WAR:  3.8

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA  GB/FB
2009 216.0 4.04 4.10 4.79 3.33 15 0.267   2.03

Yes, he pitches a lot of innings.  Yes, he just had an ok year in Colorado.  The problem is that in his previous 3 seasons his ERA was closer to 5 (sometimes 6) and that' s when he hadn't been demoted out of the rotation.  Remember what I said earlier about not rewarding a guy for suddenly pitching well in his FA season?  Well someone is going to give him a multi-year deal and chances are they're going to regret it.

Risks:  Lowering K-rates and sudden drop in HR/9 make '09 look lucky.  Sorry Frenchy, but Marquis seems like the biggest 2010 FA bust in the entire class.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Brad Penny - '09 WAR:  2.5

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 173.1 4.88 4.46 5.66 2.65 22 0.281 0.308

Penny has always been inconsistent year-to-year, now he seems to have reached the point where he's going from bad to worse.  In his last 150+ip he's posted an ERA around 5.50 and he's giving up more longballs than ever.  His fb velocity is actually up this year but that was never the problem; Penny looks nearly done to me.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

 Joel Pineiro  - '09 WAR:  4.8

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA GB/FB
2009 214.0 3.49 3.28 4.42 1.14 11 0.265 2.54
Seems like a perfect fit most notably because of his miniscule walk totals (only 27 all year), an issue for the entire '09 Mets staff.  But the whole thing with Pineiro is whether you buy into the changes he's made that have made him so successful.  In short, before '09 Dave Duncan convinced Pineiro to stop trying to strike out hitters with his secondary stuff, in other words stop nibbling.  He explained that the sink on his two-seam fb is good enough that if he threw this pitch most of the time he would have more success.  And voila, best season of his career.  His GB/FB went from an already good 1.63 in '08 to an impossible 2.63 in '09.  If you buy in you'll probably have to outbid a few other teams and offer at least a three year deal

Risks:  I hate to reward a pitcher (w/ a career 4.37era) for a career year in his free agent season.  He'll also be leaving Dave Duncan, which is always a bad thing.  He has been relatively durable but arm problems tend to pop up every few years or so, most recently shoulder pain in '08.  And finally there are rumors that he is looking at Kyle Lohse's 4yr/$41M (and full no trade) monstrosity as a starting point which would negate any good value.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Ben Sheets  - '08 WAR:  4.4

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2008 198.1 3.09 3.38 7.17 2.13 17 0.244 0.290
2009   DNP

Here is an interesting high risk/ high reward option.  However it's not if he'll get hurt, it's when.  In fact Sheets has made at least one trip to the DL every year since 2005 with a wide assortment of injuries.  However, when he pitches he is still very effective.  In '08 he managed to pitch nearly 200 innings, his K rates were very strong, not a lot of walks and he remained one of the less hittable guys in baseball to the tune of a .244 BAA and a 3.09 era.  There were rumors last offseason that the Mets were one of two teams most interested in Sheets, despite his injury history and as a flyball pitcher, he could thrive in Citi.

Risks:  Obviously health.  Though he's pitched well despite injury before, his most recent injury was the most significant of his career, a torn flexor tendon in his pitching elbow.  Who knows if he can come back strong, though he has been rehabbing all season long down in Texas.  At this point he seems too big a risk to bank on as a primary pitching acquisition.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

John Smoltz - '09 WAR:  1.5

After being shut down in September due to shoulder tendinitis, at age 42 can he still be expected to pitch through a full season?  His velocity, while still decent, is down a bunch and despite reports of still decent stuff, he hasn't had ANY semblance of fastball command.  One note:  His FIP was actually decent but his BABIP of .364 was way too high; is this bad luck or a result of way too many middle-middle fastballs creating more LD's?  Either way its too risky for the Mets to take that chance.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Jarrod Washburn  - '09 WAR:  2.1

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 176.0 3.78 4.57 5.11 2.51 23 0.244 0.257
Much like Jason Marquis, Washburn is having what looks like a pretty good season in his contract year.  But don't be fooled, this is a mirage.  Powered mostly by a ridiculously low .257 BABIP.  This has meant a 1.19 WHIP, compared to his past four seasons averaging 1.39.  In fact since he began calling pitcher friendly Safeco Field home in '06, Washburn has posted FIP's at 4.50 or above in 4 straight seasons, including this one.  Like Garland, if you can ink him to a strict one year deal for cheap, make him a Plan B.  Otherwise, pass.

Risks:  He could probably be had for a cheap deal following his collapse in DET/creaky old knee woes but he is going to turn back into a pumpkin in 2010, no doubt.  Not only that but the guy is 35 and has heard the words 'day-to-day' more than a few times in the last couple seasons.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Brandon Webb - '08 WAR:  6.1

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA GB/FB
2008 226.2 3.30 3.28 7.27 2.58 13 0.244 3.15
2009   Injured

The D-Backs have hinted that following his shoulder surgery they will NOT pick up Webb's option, hoping instead for a compromise from Webb to accept a pay cut.  Webb stated: "If it comes down to that...I would have to see what else is out there and see if there's something better."  Webb will most likely be back in time for ST and has remained nearly injury free up until this year.  IMO this represents a unique option to add an ace-caliber pitcher to back up Johan for likely a 2-3 year deal.

Risks: Coming off of shoulder surgery who knows what you'll get with Webb.  Dr. James Andrews stated that this wasn't a structural issue and most importantly there was NO labrum tear so he should come back fine but it is the same Shoulder Debridement surgery Erik Bedard had prior to his injury plagued 2009.  Josh Byrnes has also stated recently that there is a chance the option gets picked up.  

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Randy Wolf  - '09 WAR:  3.0

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP 
2009 214.0 3.23 3.96 6.72 2.44 24 0.227 0.257

Though not a dominator, Wolf has been posting FIP's at or below 4 for the past few seasons which is acceptable.  He seems to have settled into that finesse lefty, Moyer-esque niche very nicely late in his career and I don't see a reason why he can't continue to do so.  Coming off a one year, $5M contract, I doubt he goes for less than two years this winter after he wanted 3yrs, $30M last winter.  If you can get him at two years for less than $15M, not a bad deal but no more.

Risks:  Unsustainably low .258 BABIP suggests that his ERA will not remain in the low 3's like this year; expect closer to 4.  At 33 age is a minor issue.  Missed some time a few years back due to shoulder problems but seems relatively durable since. 

 

_________________________________________Trade Targets______________________________________

Bronson Arroyo  - '09 WAR:  1.8

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 220.1 3.84 4.78 5.19 2.66 31 0.256 0.27

While he may seem like a tremendous option to arrogant drivetime radio hosts, Arroyo really isn't.  This is a guy whose posted mid-4 FIP's in each of the past 5 seasons.  His last 2 "good seasons" according to ERA (2006 & 2009) have come thanks to career-low BABIP's.  And for what it's worth he is wildly inconsistent start-to-start.  Meanwhile he's being paid $11M for the next 2 years.  No thanks.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Roy Halladay - '09 WAR:  7.3

IP ERA FIP K/9 BB/9 HR  BAA BABIP
2009 239.0 2.79 3.06 7.83 1.32 22 0.258 0.313

 

He's greatness.  He has arguably the best combo of stuff and command in baseball.  He is regularly putting up 5+ WAR seasons and despite his age (32) hes only getting better, posting a 6.5 in '08 and he's on pace for a similar figure in '09.  Fangraphs' Dave Cameron equates this performance in terms of trade value and suggests that it translates into 3 top prospects; "Mets fans? Fernando MartinezWilmer Flores, and Jenrry Mejia." 

Risks:  He costs too much.  Ricciardi made it clear that he wouldn't talk without 3 top prospects in the mix.  Maybe his successor, Alex Anthopoulos, will be more lenient.  All that said, if we can lock him up for a few years after a trade (a la Johan) I'd be willing to give significant value (i.e. a package around Wilmer & Holt).

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Aaron Harang - '09 WAR:  2.5

Harang was one of the more underrated pitchers in baseball for years, posting ~6 WAR seasons from '04-'07.  However, these last couple years instead of ERA's in the mid-3's, he's been in the mid-to-high 4's while his key ratios haven't declined too much.  He posted a .339 BABIP this season but he's always been one to post +.300 levels, even in his best years so that may be meaningless.  So what to make of him?  I'd say he'd probably make a decent buy-low candidate as he's still only 31, if it weren't for that $12.5M salary next year.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Felix Hernandez - '09 WAR:  6.9

It's just not possible.  Exhibit A:  For those who didn't hear, Boston and Seattle were linked in trade talks around the trade deadline; Theo approached SEA, offered any 5 of a group of 8 prospects that included Bucholz, Masterson, Bowden, Hagadone, Bard & Reddick, among others.  Seattle rejected.  The moral of the story is that we could literally clean out our system and still not afford Felix.  And probably rightly so, he was downright incredible this year at age 23(!), posting a 6 WAR and hasn't even entered into arbitration years yet.  Seattle also wants to talk about an extension this winter (good luck with that).

Anyone curious about Zack Greinke, see above.  Plus, he recently said he doesn't want to pitch in NY due to anxiety issues.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Derek Lowe - '09 WAR:  2.7

Believe it or not, there are rumors that Frank Wren will be shopping Lowe this offseason.  It actually makes sense; they've got a definite pitching surplus, Lowe costs a lot and they need another bat.  The problem is, how much would we really want to give for a guy coming off a pretty sub-par year in his age 36 season who is owed $15M for the next 3 years?  I mean he saw declines across the board from K/9 and BB/9 to his bread and butter GB/FB.  He might make for a decent buy-low candidate but the Braves would never deal him within the division for very cheap.

Risks:  His key indicators definitely point to some declining ability and thats the last thing you want to hear with 3yrs/$45M left.  However, I keep looking to that .330 BABIP and if the Braves are really motivated to move him I'd consider it.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Gil Meche - '09 WAR:  1.5

After signing that 5yr/$55M deal, Meche pitched a couple of decent seasons as if to prove he was worth it.  However, '09 was not as successful with an ERA above 5 and a FIP to match.  But there were some solid signs for Meche, including his vast improvement in GB/FB and his career-best LD%.  In addition, he suffered some bad luck in the BABIP dept this season.

Risks:  The aforementioned contract w/ 3 years left is definitely a whopper if he's not pitching well.  In addition Meche has always had difficulty controlling his good stuff and walks are an issue with him.  He also suffered a back injury in '09.  Probably too much of a long shot for us.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Roy Oswalt - '09 WAR:  3.1

While he's obviously not the CY Young candidate he was back in '01-'02, Oswalt is still pretty effective.  Even his 4.12 ERA this year isn't as bad when you see his 3.76 FIP.  He has seen slight declines in K/9 but otherwise his ratios have remained pretty stable, even the BAA.  The only question is whether or not the Astros finally bite the bullet and deal him (and would the unabashed country boy even accept a deal to NY?)

Risks:  Health has been a factor throughout his career, though to be fair he hasn't pitched less than 180ip since 2003.  But you can mark down at least 1 trip to the DL just about every season, including a serious back issue this year.  Money always ties into health and he doesn't come cheap; Oswalt will receive $15M in 2010 and $16M in 2011 with an option for $16M in 2012.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Javier Vazquez - '09 WAR:  6.6

Now the Braves clearly have some decisions to make regarding their pitching surplus but why would they deal Vazquez?  He's always healthy and he's coming off a career year where he was clearly their best starter.  Not only that but other than Roy Halladay he's the only pitcher to pass 4.5 WAR in each of the last 4 seasons.  However, the performance/salary of both Lowe and Kawakami make them difficult to deal if you're looking to get a big bat back to replace/supplant Chipper.  And at age 34, Tim Hudson is coming off TJ surgery.  Obviously Jurrjens and Hanson are untouchable.

Risks:  To acquire Vazquez within the division we'd have to give the Braves the moon and the stars.  Too much basically.  

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Carlos Zambrano - '09 WAR:  3.6

Word on the street is that the Cubs will be shopping Big Z this winter.  And while that sounds tempting, most people have yet to realize that Zambrano is not the pitcher he once was.  In fact, before this season he hadn't posted a FIP below 4 since 2005.  Even this season required quite a bit of luck to do so.  Many key ratios like FB velo., BAA, GB/FB & HR/9 have been trending down for years and many point to his massive workload at such a young age.

Risks:  At ~$18M for 4 more season, this contract could get VERY ugly, very fast if/when Zambrano's gradual decline continues.

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

Comment 66 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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Very nice, very comprehensive.

Guys I think we should take a run at:
FA: Lackey, Piniero, and Wolf.
Trade Targets: Halladay, Harang, Vazquez.

In order to contend next year, we have to get one of these guys. Additionally, Sheets, Webb, and Hudson are all great buy low opportunities that should we should try to sign, but not necessarily count on.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 8, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh

and Yusei Kikuchi. Eephus ftw.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 8, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

I think Garland is the cheapest, and would be a nice back of the rotation guy. Where he can compete with Maine and Ollie.

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Oct 8, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rotation next year:

Johan
???
Pelfrey
Niese
Ollie/Maine
To be honest, idk if we need Garland. It would make more sense to take a risk with our second SP signing and sign a high reward gamble like Sheets, Hudson, or Webb.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 8, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd love Webb

the reward with him greatly outweighs the risk. If it’s a one time injury then this would be a great signing. Regarding Sheets, if he can be had cheap, I’d want him to be like minor league depth. Coming off a major injury and with his history, both on the field and being escorted off the field by a trainer, he might available for very little.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Oct 8, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good job.

“2010 Pitching for Dummies”

by fxcarden on Oct 8, 2009 11:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Favorite comment from that vid?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 8, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Classy.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Oct 8, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

I thought that was quite bad, then I saw his username, eek

by deadspy3 on Oct 8, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's, umm

that’s gotta be a parody, right?

by JoshNY on Oct 8, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

or an angry 14 year old

by deadspy3 on Oct 8, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

nice.

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Oct 8, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, Chapman appeals to the always-tough-to-reach Klan demographic

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Oct 8, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd.

I could just picture the Bahstahn Kennedy accent with this comment.

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Oct 11, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cool, thanks for putting this together

Did this make anyone else feel really pessimistic? The impression I had after reading it all is that all these pitchers either suck, can’t stay healthy, or are really expensive.

by mnbv on Oct 8, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

ha

yeah sorry, i felt that while i was writing too. i wasn’t trying to rain on the parade but i wanted to be fair and balanced and at least in my view most guys had at least some negatives worth discussing. i could just talk about the positives like most FA lists but IMO nearly all pitching in the majors, by its very nature, is something of a risk from year to year whether it be health, effectiveness, salary, etc. there are only a handful of guys that aren’t and they’re tough to come by.

i think its also a product of this winter’s pretty underwhelming FA/trade bait class; there is a hugely disproportionate amount of middle of the rotation, 4era, ‘best days behind them’ type guys which we obviously don’t need. then the “top guys” like lackey and pineiro are looking for 4-5yr deals which as we all know so rarely end up working out. then the other really talented guys (webb, bedard, sheets, harden) are all battling serious injury issues.

i think it speaks more to the level of pitching in the majors today and the tremendous value shift leaguewide thats being placed on good, young, cheap arms. you just can’t find them out there anymore. but my own personal skepticism/viewpoint probably did leak in too.

by Rob Castellano on Oct 8, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you really think

Pineiro would get 4yrs/$40m+? I mean, I know he would like that, but I would have thought 2 years and $20m with a third year team option would be more than enough?

by deadspy3 on Oct 8, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

like i said in the post

hes looking at fellow cardinal/dave duncan reclamation project kyle lohse as a model. and believe it or not lohse just got 4yrs/$41M on an even worse season than the one pineiro just had so he has the justification to expect that, whether he’ll get it or not.

by Rob Castellano on Oct 8, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Show us the Wolf

and where are you getting that K-Rate on him? It’s not 3.96, that’s way off. He had 160 Ks this year. I would not go comparing him to Moyer just yet, he’s a bit more of a strike out guy than him. If you look at his career numbers, he’s pretty damned consistent. A 2 or 3 year deal with him would not be a bad idea. And I’d take a long look at Sheets for a 1-year deal, with incentives, so it’s not too high, call me a sucker.

by David G on Oct 8, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions  

He

Solves problems. Hell, he should be our GM

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Oct 8, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh. You feel betta now muthafuckuh?

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Oct 8, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

my bad

i put the FIP in the wrong cell

by Rob Castellano on Oct 8, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would the wolfman be happy with Randy Wolf?

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Oct 8, 2009 4:29 PM EDT reply actions  

To be honest, I don't think he would.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 8, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe, maybe not

but most of the other pitchers he’d just dump into a tub and throw acid on them.

by David G on Oct 8, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

If only Teen Wolf could pitch

for us. We’d “Winnnn in the Endddd…”

by David G on Oct 8, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Michael J Fox Teen Wolf or Jason Bateman Teen Wolf?

by TheBigStapler on Oct 9, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which do you think?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 9, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunno.

Bateman’s a fighter— a scrapper. And that Fox’s got a REALLY high dribble.

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Oct 17, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I have absolute confidence

that whichever guy(s) we end up siging will promptly blow out their arms. That’s the Mets way.

You know what sucks – the last time we developed a home-grown all-star pitcher was Bobby Jones. The last time we developed a home-grown all-star pitcher that was actually an all-star caliber pitcher was Doc Gooden. That kinda sucks.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Oct 8, 2009 8:25 PM EDT reply actions  

that makes me a sad panda

but still, when other than Kazmir, we haven’t had a really highly touted pitching prospect since Generation K, so it’s not even like we’ve had a lot of flameouts – we’re just not drafting right. Holt and Mejia may be breaking the trend, but it’s definitely hurt us the past decade and a half not having a cheap, homegrown ace.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Oct 8, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still think

Big Pelf will put up some great numbers over the next few years. He has all-star potential at least.

by deadspy3 on Oct 9, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that Pelf has lots of potential, the question is

will it ever be reached as a Met.

I see him being a stud for another team one day, mostly because that is the Met way.

by fxcarden on Oct 9, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's just silly.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 9, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you mean ?.

Are you saying that is not the Met way ? .

by fxcarden on Oct 9, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

that he will be a stud.
I think Pelf is what he is: a good mid rotation starter whose stats were artificially worsened by a historically bad infield defense and bad luck.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 10, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Labrum injuries

Will Carroll has said that 3% figure is outdated; I don’t have the actual number, but we do have more labrum survivors today than when the slate article was written. So Bedard does not carry a death sentence; just worse-than-harden durability.

by The nye mets are my favorite team on Oct 8, 2009 10:59 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Worse-than-Harden, better-than-Prior is not very reassuring!

by TheBigStapler on Oct 9, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, but that's more about Bedard than the Labrum injury.

He’s just one of those guys whose genes don’t seem to lend itself to pitching. The labrum tear’s a consequence of that, not the cause of his health problems.

by The nye mets are my favorite team on Oct 9, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Think

If its true the wilpons have money sign webb,Lackey and trade for Crawford. Yeah i know Crawford doesnt have the power of Holliday but we must play to citifield strengths which means pitching and a lot of pitchers will love coming here for the stadium, and defense we can’t have the butcher that is Holliday in the outfield.
Imagine what we could do with the money we spent on ollie

by amzinsbucs fan on Oct 9, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions  

You still have to have some power

Other teams came into Citi and were able to hit homers.

by David G on Oct 9, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Power is Overated

But look at this the phillies are built for their stadium power all around so the mets should focus on speed and defense. Remeber in citifield a ball gets by you on those quirky dimensions can become from a singe into a triple or inside the park. Holliday will will butcher us and last citifield is not a hr park it is a pitchers park so speed and defense i want crawford or Upton but if we get Holliday its fine as long as we win. defense and speed or power and not so great defense???

by amzinsbucs fan on Oct 9, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

You keep mentioning that Holliday is a "butcher"

Yet the evidence we have, anecdotally as well as statistically, suggests that he is an above-average LF.

Is this because of what happened last night?

by TheBigStapler on Oct 9, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well Yes

From the game last night and from when he came to city ok i acknowledge he is not a butcher but citifield wont help him become any better.

by amzinsbucs fan on Oct 9, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Power's pretty properly rated

You’re making up a false dilemma here. Being a good hitter doesn’t mean you’re automatically a bad defender. Moreover, we know the relative importance of defensive value and offensive value: it’s about 2:1 offense:defense; that is, IIRC, the best defensive team and the worst defensive team are separated by half the number of runs that the best offensive and worst offensive clubs are. So, if you were to put a team of Endies on the field, your staff would look really good, but you wouldn’t score enough.

You don’t want Carl Crawford just because he’s fast and plays good defense; if that were the case, we could get Willy Taveras for 1/20th the price. You want Crawford because, in addition to being a good SB man and a solid defensive LF, he hit .305/.364/.452 this year. We all want guys like that; the question you’re asking is how many runs we can give up with the glove before the bat loses its value, and thankfully, we have ways to approach that question.

by The nye mets are my favorite team on Oct 9, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Yes i should have made my point clearer what i means Is i like Holliday but if you want him for power then you are going the wrong direction in citifield you need speed , defense a good bat. please tell me who can we approach this question of mine? or better what would you do Holliday , crawford or Upton?

by amzinsbucs fan on Oct 9, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because we had one year where we didn't hit many homeruns

We can’t sign guys who are known for having that skill? Power is very important, much more so than speed. Just because Citi may not be a hitters park doesn’t mean we get away from home run hitters. It doesn’t matter how fast your team is, sometimes you just need a home run to cut a 5 run lead to a 2 run lead with one swing. I’d love Crawford because he is a great player, but we still need some guys who can blast one out on a somewhat regular basis.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Oct 10, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

What would I do?

Keep in mind what it will cost to get each of these guys:
Holliday: Star Money + 2nd round pick
Crawford: Good-quality Minor leaguers, $10 M option, and then Star Money for next season and beyond.
Upton (assuming he’s available; that .241/11/55 season’s going to cost him in arbitration, and so far, outside of two great weeks in the playoffs last year, he’s been just projection and tools- did you know he had a worse line than Murphy this year?)
Legit question: is Crawford that much better than Holliday to make the cost worthwhile? I don’t think so.

But your point is that Citifield somehow kills HR to the point where the Mets won’t get good value from big HR guys. I think you’re mistaken there, but here’s the real problem: teams with similar problems don’t think that way. Texas and Colorado both have home parks that are killer to pitchers. Does that mean that both clubs should try to just focus on speed and defense, and add a bunch of sinkerballers? Nope, that’s not how they’re doing it. Instead, they realize that the park’s going to mess up mediocre pitchers, but the elite arms, like Ubaldo, or Neftali Feliz, will be able to throw anywhere.
Legit power hitters will still mash at Citi. We saw how the Phillies didn’t stop hitting HR when they came in on the road. To argue that Holliday will somehow drop to a 10 HR guy at Citi is silly. Citifield is not Old Yankee Stadium, it’s not Petco, and it might not even be Shea in how it hurts hitters. This team just put out an awful lineup for 2/3 of the year, and its best player altered his swing to be more of the speed + defense + average guy you’re advocating, and it led to the worst year of his career. Don’t reinvent the wheel based on one bad season.

by The nye mets are my favorite team on Oct 10, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

True

My argument is flawed but its true what you say about Upton we will be that guy that was the tools but won’t live up to his potential ex.(Oliver Perez). Tell me if you cold get Justin and B.J would you do that or no. Thank you for changing my view on this.

by amzinsbucs fan on Oct 11, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree about Harden

His xFIP’s over the past 3 years (most recent first):

3.70
3.69
3.82

I see no decline. He’s been remarkably consistently good when healthy; the question is whether or not he will stay healthy. If he gives you 100-150 innings, you’ve got a 3 WAR player.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 9, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions  

but you're leaving out the most important year

his FIP this last year was 4.35 and in140ip he didn’t even reach 2 WAR.

so even if last year was an anomaly he’s obviously not that consistent. and the issue is that many of his key peripherals declined this season.

now it might be a bit hasty to say he’s in decline, his HR/9 jumped way too high so that probably had a lot to do with it. but if you watch a lot of cubs broadcasts on WGN, they were so down on the guy this season. it seemed that just about anytime i watched he couldn’t throw enough strikes to even get into the 6th and often had to throw meatballs on 2-1 or 3-1 which would get hit.

by Rob Castellano on Oct 10, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

No I'm not

His xFIP that year was 3.70, I listed it right there. His numbers, K:BB, FB% were exactly the same, except for an elevated HR/FB ration. Given that HR/FB is out of a pitchers control, I see no reason why that should be counted against him when projected future performance.

by vivaelpujols on Oct 10, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

whoops

i didn’t see the ‘x’ in there, i thought you said regular FIP. and after thinking about it some more, i have to say you’ve changed my mind. his decline this season was a clear result of more hrs going out which isn’t entirely his fault. after all, i’ve given carlos zambrano little to no credit for his lowered ERA by limiting his hrs this season. and since harden’s others #‘s didn’t decline too badly, i’d say he’s a decent target after all. on a 1yr, cheaper deal of course.

now his issue with walks and command don’t necessarily mesh with what we’re looking for but i guess you can’t have everything.

by Rob Castellano on Oct 11, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

He just missed out on being a type A.

Not costing a draft pick probably makes him more expensive and much more likely to get several decent offers.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Oct 11, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

very good point

the same will be true for brandon webb if ARZ doesn’t pick up that option. but with webb i’d actually be willing to bump up my offer.

by Rob Castellano on Oct 11, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

If AZ turns down his option, I'd imagine something is very wrong with his shoulder.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Oct 11, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pineiro

has done a Holliday and reduced his value! Hurrah!

by deadspy3 on Oct 11, 2009 11:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Vicente Padilla

For anyone who watched last night’s game wondering about Padilla, don’t.

Despite what the broadcasters said about his only issue being his attitude, I’d say that the fact that he hasn’t posted an ERA/FIP below the mid-4’s since 2003 is a bit of a issue.

Yes, he has good stuff, yes he posts excellent Gamescores from time to time, but the bottomline is that over the course of a season he garners terrible results and at age 32 I doubt thats gonna change.

by Rob Castellano on Oct 11, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd take him for 2 million or so.

I don’t think we really need to be looking for any more back of the rotstion types though.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Oct 11, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

well done

good job ,!it is useful to me!

by deartyme on Oct 12, 2009 3:52 AM EDT reply actions  

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