Amazin' Avenue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: UNC 77, Ohio State 73

Five Numbers To Avoid When Evaluating Starting Pitchers

They are: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Invariably, with the offseason, people start making their fantasy teams, which contain a lineup and a 1-5 starting rotation. During the long winter, these teams find themselves posted all over the internet, usually looking something like this:

this has to hapen........trade fmarn and some b-prosects for roy hallday.......

sign john lacky for 6 yr 90million $$

.....explode oliver perez in2 the sun

1. johan

2. halldaday

3. lackey

4. pelfry

5. niese/maine

champtionship

The Mets certainly need pitching help for next season. According to fangraphs, the pitching staff finished 27th in the majors, one of just 6 with a cumulative WAR lower than Albert Pujols alone. My concern here, however, is how we talk about starting pitchers, not a specific solution. The standard 1-5 ranking makes sense, because the 5-man rotation is the centerpiece of all modern pitching staffs. Discussing specific pitchers, or the construction of a rotation, with this 1-5 rubric, however, holds the discussion back.

First, labeling a pitcher a number is vague and virtually meaningless. Numerous times this season, I suffered through a discussion that began along the lines of "I really thought Pelfrey was going to be a solid number two this season, but now I can see he's just a four, or a three at best." What can we surmise from this assessment? That Pelfrey got worse? That he didn't meet someone's vague expectations? It doesn't describe how he's an average pitcher with decent control who needs to throw his slider more often and is heavily dependent on his defense for game management. It certainly does not talk about how with better up-the-middle infield defense, and a pitching coach that kept him down in the zone, he could put up some pretty nice numbers; or that he has been 4.8 WAR in the past two years. In some ways, this way of talking about a rotation is even worse than talking about wins and losses, since at least wins gives you a general, but very imprecise, sense of where a pitcher stands relative to the league. Besides, what does being a #2 mean when your competition is this group:

Rotationfail_medium

Especially in the offseason, the point of accessing a pitcher's value is so that you can compare him to other potential rotation candidates. How deep can a comparison be when everyone is 1-5? We don't compare hitters this way; Albert Pujols is a 3rd-spot hitter, but so is Jose Lopez on his respective team. The inevitable solution is a bunch of equally vague qualifiers like, "Solid 3" or "4 on a good team," which only muddle the picture further.

More importantly, however, the 1-5 ranking is the very framework that has failed the Mets so often. Rotations don't actually go 1-5. Look at the graphic above, which shows eleven pitchers started for the Mets this season, all with varying numbers of innings pitched. For a fanbase that has been so quick to bemoan the lack of depth and forward thinking from the Mets,  penciling-in 4. John Maine 5. Jon Niese seems a tinge hypocritical. By putting them down as "the four" and "the five" you are implicitly expecting that they will pitch the fourth and fifth most innings next year and give the fourth and fifth best performances. Anyone who expects John Maine or Jon Niese a lock for over 100 innings next year is nuts. Many fans wrote down 2. Pelfrey and 3. Perez last season and were perfectly happy to do so at the time.

So, when you talk about pitchers, talk about what they contribute to this team, not where they slot in. Also mention any concerns going forward, and the plan if those concerns become real problems.

0 recs  |  Comment 25 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

It must be the off season for the Mets

For you to post this. Whining about labeling pitchers 1-5 is as meaningless as labeling them 1-5!

by Dapoil on Oct 9, 2009 7:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Way to totally miss the point.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 9, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How so?

What’s the argument here, and where’s there any proof that there’s anything wrong with labeling them 1-5 or A-E or anything else? There’s nobody on the planet who believes that a rotation retains its form after a few go-rounds, so numbering them only refers to where they begin the season in the rotation. And as for assertions like: "By putting them down as “the four” and “the five” you are implicitly expecting that they will pitch the fourth and fifth most innings next year and give the fourth and fifth best performances." where’s the proof of that? Says who? I actually think that the Mets and many fans though Livan was our #5 but would likely give us MORE inning than our #3 this season because, afterall, he’s an “innings eater” by tradition, right? I’m all for “talk(ing) about what they (pitchers) contribute to this team, not where they slot in,” but I hardly think that thinking about where a pitcher may slot in is much of a problem, certainly not a major issue facing this team. Let me put it this way, (and yes this is a BIG hypothetical) if the Jays said to the Mets that Doc Halladay could be had for Lucas Duda, I doubt the brass would say, “But we already have a #1, and Halladay is not a #2.” I truly believe that teams are assembled based on need/cost analysis. The problem isn’t thinking about rotation slot, the problem is with poor understanding of need, coupled with bad analysis.

by Dapoil on Oct 9, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Says I

If you write down a pitcher as the #4, like many did for Maine last year, you’re assuming he’ll do the minimum to be considered a regular part of the rotation. This assumption circumvents the necessary discussion of who will pitch if he’s unable to, no Livan Hernandez in himself is not a backup plan, nor is he really a pitcher.

Your hypothetical situation has nothing to do with my point.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Oct 9, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who cares-

if " you’re assuming he’ll do the minimum to be considered a regular part of the rotation"?

He’ll do the best he’s capable of regardless of where he’s penciled in. And do we know that anybody in baseball uses these numbers for anything more than convenience of reference in the first place?

This whole post strikes me as very Metsbloggy

by Dapoil on Oct 9, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally

Though I didn’t see any italics, elipsis, or half-hearted Hemlet-esque opinions. And of course I can’t recall too many Metsblog posts that used xIP tRA and pRAA. And there aren’t 45 illiterate posts in the comments section. And Cerrone is not exactly prone to making substantive arguments backed with any kind of evidence othern than his gut or what “others are saying.”

But other than that, it totally had a Metsblog feel.

by dcmetsfan on Oct 9, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but aside from the metsbloggy comment

what did you think of the play Mrs. Lincoln?

by wobatus on Oct 9, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Er... who's whining?

All I see is a well-written warning against lumping pitchers together in vague groups that muddle evaluations and expectations.

by shwebsi on Oct 9, 2009 8:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely dead-on analysis

The pitcher numbers are meaningless. Basically they just rank your five best pitchers (either by talent or by IP — which, of course, leads to other issues). There is no such thing as a #2 pitcher — what #2 on one team might be #3 or #1 on another. It’s absurd to think the ranking means anything at all. Yet people use the numbers as though it was some sort of standard.

The object is to have five good pitchers. And “good” is relative and depends on your offense and bullpen.

by Realitychuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think a typical aspect of fandom

is the desire to rank things. People talk about batting orders, rotation slots, closer/setup/middle/specialist, and prospect rankings. It helps There’s nothing wrong with that on face value.

When it becomes tricky, however, is when the vocabulary becomes the architecture itself of the strategy. Consider how the term “closer” has been used to replace the rank “best reliever” and has actually had a profound (negative) impact on how the game is played. “Closers” pitch the 9th because they “close” games while the best relievers should be pitching the highest leverage situations.

The 1-5 discussion is another example of this. The words are not meaningless but, rather, plastic or at least relative and confused by the terminology’s reputation.

Ranking is an interesting way to get one’s thoughts going but I would hope it be used only as a starting point for real description and not let the rank itself become the end description. Probably best to avoid the vocabulary entirely, like you suggest, Sam.

by TheBigStapler on Oct 9, 2009 10:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's also really easy

and most sports commentators/fans are speaking from a stand-point of keeping things simple. It’s all well and good to look at a rotation and say, “this guy is my ace, this guy is 2….3..4..5” but you’re right, it doesn’t tell you anything.

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Oct 9, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the way I classify it

is that the 30 best pitchers in the league are #1’s, the next 30 are #2’s, and so on. So, a team can have 3 #1’s (like the 90’s Braves), or a few #2’s, or just a bunch of #5’s (the Mets post Johan).

So, just because Pelf was our second best pitcher does NOT make him a #2. I’d say right now he’s a #3.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Oct 9, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But since every team uses way more than 5 pitchers, that would end up with hundreds of “#5” pitchers. Furthermore, we know certain pitchers to be better than others but they may get injured or unlucky, affecting their results and their statistical rank but does that really make them worse? Johan didn’t pitch like one of the 30 best this year because he was hurt but we all call him a #1.

Really, we end up using our intuition based on a lot of different criteria to judge the ranking.

by TheBigStapler on Oct 9, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's about how I look at it

and it really is justa short hand or convenience. So, pelfrey ended up 3 or 4, Perez 12,000 maine n/a. Has nothing to do with how they were slotted before the season in anyone’s blog post. The more pitchers the better.

Hey, too bad Freddy Garcia closed out the year pitching like an NL number 2. With the mets he sure pitched like plain old number 2.

by wobatus on Oct 9, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pelfrey # 66 in tRA*

among pitchers qualifying. So he was a decent number 3 compared to able bodies available.

Which is what a lot of folks mean anyway. It’s easier to say that, than to say:

“he’s an average pitcher with decent control who needs to throw his slider more often and is heavily dependent on his defense for game management. It certainly does not talk about how with better up-the-middle infield defense, and a pitching coach that kept him down in the zone, he could put up some pretty nice numbers; or that he has been 4.8 WAR in the past two years.”

And people might have said that too. Both things can be said without anyone thinking saying “number 3” is somehow wrong. Depends on who says it and what they might be thinking to back it up. Not everyone is gonna write a soliliquy for every pitcher in baseball.

If someone says “Jason Marquis is a winner and a number 1, an All-Star, and from Staten Island and we need him,” then you can worry.

by wobatus on Oct 9, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pelfrey #67 in tRA* in 2008

There’s his problem. He stayed the exact same pitcher. tRA* was 4.84 in 2009, 4.79 in 2008. A solid number 3. Damn unevolving bastard.

Is Jorge De la Rosa gonna come up for a contract soon? See if we can’t get that guy. #34 in 2008, 21 in 2009. Think the Rox have figured it out. :)

BTW, difference in tRA* between 66th in 2009 (Pelfrey 4.84) and 90th (Sean West 5.17) isn’t huge.

by wobatus on Oct 9, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching

If its true the wilpons have money sign webb,Lackey and trade for Crawford. Yeah i know Crawford doesnt have the power of Holliday but we must play to citifield strengths which means pitching and a lot of pitchers will love coming here for the stadium, and defense we can’t have the butcher that is Holliday in the outfield.
Imagine what we could do with the money we spent on Ollie.

by amzinsbucs fan on Oct 9, 2009 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Holliday is a good left fielder

and what does it mean to play to it’s strengths? So no more looking for power hitters because the stadium is pitcher friendly? That’s not a good formula to win. And what about the 81 games we play away from Citi, don’t you want some power there?

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Oct 9, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

What i mean is we need speed and defense which puts Crawford and Upton there. I like murph but if we can get Fielder then cuold you live with Crawford or Upton there???

by amzinsbucs fan on Oct 9, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't think citi field has a major effect

just get a good player.
does anyone have any info on if speed and defense are leveraged in big parks?

by EtSuKe on Oct 9, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But Holliday is GOOD at left field.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Oct 9, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another side effect of labeling pitchers "#1/#2/etc."

Stupid stupid people saying Bert Blyleven shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame because he was “not an ace” or some bullshit like that.

by JoshNY on Oct 9, 2009 11:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ha ha

Even better than the term “#1” is “ace” but my absolute favorite is “true ace.”

by TheBigStapler on Oct 9, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm

he was the best pitcher on a few good staffs. That doesn’t make sense on several levels. Sutton was never an ace.

by wobatus on Oct 9, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

speaking of tRA

it now has a wikipedia article. I think it should be in the MSM now!

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Oct 10, 2009 8:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Start posting about the Mets »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
AAOP - It's Late, But Still Good
Small
AAOP: A new outlook...
Me_go_mets_small
AAOP: Just get Pujols
Small
AAOP: Supplementing the Core
Small
AAOP
The_buddha_by_lord_karsus_small
Grissionometer
Misc_007_small
Madoff, Backman, and an Old Baseball Jacket
Images-1_small
AAOP. The Way to fix the mets roster without causing to much damage to their minors system (batting)
Axolotl_small
This Is What Is Wrong With WAR
Small
AAOP: Pitching wins.

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Marty Noble: Glavine Claims Young Mets Weren't Offended By Losing
WAR analysis of AAOPs

Recent FanShots

No Matt Holliday or Jason Bay apparently means Adrian Gonzalez
Wallace Matthews says Mets should look to 2011
This idea looks familar
LoDuca seeking work
AFL: Havens continues to rake
Nick Evans catching in the bullpen plus a little bit of BP. I think I am a bit generous about his...
Marty Noble has no idea what Sabermetrics are.
Kottaras Waived, Claimed
Is it really that tough to play in New York?
Scott Moviel AFL video

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Sponsors


THE BIG GUY

Aa_avatar_small Eric Simon

THE INCREDIBLES

Blackfish2_small Alex Nelson

Cj_small Sam Page

Best_infield_ever_small James Kannengieser

THE NEWS GURU

Wrightfront_small Joe Budd

THE POET LAUREATE

Hamheadshot__1__small Howard Megdal