Halladay Applesauce - Mets a favourite to land pitcher, Mid-east controversy brewing, Jeter Gold Glove

by Joe Budd on Nov 11, 2009 11:35 AM EST in Applesauce Comment 62 comments

Meet the Mets

Toronto's National Post lists the Mets as a "favourite" to land Roy Halladay.

Hot Foot requests that the Mets avoid Mike Cameron because his defense would somehow be wasted in left field.

John Harper believes that the Mets must throw money at their problems. When that fails, John Harper will write that the Mets management were idiots for wasting money.

Toby Hyde profiles unheralded Josh Stinson.

The Mets get sucked in to the Israel-Palestine debate.

You can rest easy, the Mets don't have any interest in Jason Varitek.

Around the NL East

The Phillies are becoming more and more associated with the name Figgins.

Around MLB

The AL Gold Glove awards were announced. Joe Posnanski gives us his take.

Scott Boras says that we should look at Johnny Damon's genetics rather than his age.

Ron Gardenhire says that Carlos Gomez irritated him sometimes.

Fangraphs says that the Orioles are sitting pretty in terms of good contracts.

Arizona is considering bringing back Livan.

Who said Moneyball was dead?

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Halladay

Did you quote the word “favourite” because of the Canadianity of the spelling?

by JoshNY on Nov 11, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

by Joe Budd on Nov 11, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What's that all aboot, eh?

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Nov 11, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dear Mets,

Why, for the love of God, did you have to get yourselves into this political thing? You are a baseball team. Politics has no place in sports. EVER!!

Sincerely,

R_Adragna

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Nov 11, 2009 12:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Aren't the Wilpons jewish ?.

by fxcarden on Nov 11, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know, but I don't care.

Sports teams, professional or otherwise, should never have to put themselves in a heated political issue. JMHO

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Nov 11, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well if they'd cancelled it

they’d be just as front and center in this issue, except on the wrong side.

and if they turned them down from the start they’d have heard claims of anti-semitism which is even worse. they clearly did the right thing here, i don’t know what there is to complain about.

by robcast23 on Nov 11, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My issue is that this Israeli-Palestinian conflict is political in nature. Whenever a sports team gets itself involved in something such as this, I cringe and get really uneasy. To me, sports should be about entertainment and not be used as a platform for a political forum. Politics should never have a place in sports. If politicians want to support a team, I’m very fine with it. Just don’t push an agenda of that nature through an entertainment form. That’s all.

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Nov 12, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have to say

that the settlers issue is so inflammatory that I think the Mets should not have booked this thing in the first place. Better background checks, perhaps?

by deadspy3 on Nov 12, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

10 bucks says

the Phillies now hold a pro-Palestinian fundraiser. That would really take things up a notch.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Nov 11, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So they support Hamas?

Now I got a real good reason to worry.

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Nov 11, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not Hamas. Ha-mels

by fxcarden on Nov 11, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LMAO

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Nov 11, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But seriously, I don't know what's worse.

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Nov 12, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Renting private event space

is not politics—as long as they would’ve rented the space to any not-for-profit group who wanted to host a fundraiser there. Even renting it out for a NY political party fundraiser wouldn’t be political per se, just business.

(I prefer my sports without politics, too, but it’s just not a possibility… especially in Major League Baseball.)

phliadelphoe ite domum!

by Doc Manhattan on Nov 11, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well not exactly.

Would it be ok for the Mets to rent it out to the KKK, since it’s just a private event space?

Or yeah, a Hamas fundraiser? No problem?

This is just another example of how Wilpon is interested in everything except the NY Mets. I am so fucking sick of him owning this team.

by Mex_17 on Nov 11, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I apologize for continuing a political discussion

But you can’t be seriously comparing the Jews of Hevron to the KKK and Hamas. The state department classifies Hamas as a terrorist organization and the Klan promotes hate crime.

by boom_roasted on Nov 11, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dude, do we not have the highest payroll in the NL, and the second (third?) highest in the MLB?

You can’t ask more from your owner- that’s basically the only thing they do, pay for things. At least they’re not the owners of some other clubs, that spend the minimum to put a team on the field, and pocket the rest. We also just got a pretty nice new stadium- again, something that wasn’t necessary, per se, since Shea was a little cruddy in places, but was still very operable as a baseball stadium.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Owners

I expect an owner to do more than “pay for things”. I expect an owner to build a winning franchise, by using his resources most wisely, hiring the best people, representing his team in his market, etc.

When you have a crappy owner with a giant wallet, you end up with people like Wilpon and Dan Snyder of the Redskins. Snyder excels at “paying for things”, so would you consider him to be a good owner?

by Mex_17 on Nov 11, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the job of Omar Minaya, building a winning team.

The Wilpons can only be blamed for keeping him around as GM.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly my point.

by Mex_17 on Nov 11, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You can't then, by proxy, attribute the faults of Omar Minaya to other people (including the people who pay his salary).

Because Scott Boras drives teams to pay the most possible for his clients, and the GMs of those teams agree to such contracts, and the owners of those teams give their GMs the money to pay for those contracts, and the commissioner of the league allows teams to operate with unlimited budgets, you can’t blame Curt Flood for the absurdly high prices of good FAs nowadays.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well the Wilpons don't exactly have a great recent track record of choosing gms

So they get some blame for constant crappy choices, not to mention they supposedly meddle more than their share.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'd

by fxcarden on Nov 11, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"Okayness" is business

I guess a better way to phrase the real business standard would be: it is not political to rent a private club to anyone, so long as it makes money for your company.

The reason not to rent to an organized hate group or terrorist organization is because it’s a money-losing proposition. The publicity would be awful, long-term, and would certainly affect the public’s choices to spend their money on CitiField/Mets properties. Refusing the business of the KKK would be smart business. There are groups that inspire controversy where refusing their business would be awful publicity for the corporation. Everyone else—inclusing, IMO, the group in question—inspires a shrug, and the only question is, did the check clear?

So, yeah, all business is political, but as long as you’re making choices based on the bottom line, it’s not exceptionally political—certainly not political to the degree of an endorsement.

phliadelphoe ite domum!

by Doc Manhattan on Nov 11, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

My major complaint is after this Hindenburg-like season of 2009, with fans ready to grab pitchforks and torches and march on Flushing, the last thing I want to read about the Mets is that they are being hailed for supporting more settlements in the West Bank. Who the F—- cares?!

Or for that matter, being hailed for anything other than rebuilding this corpse of a franchise.

by Mex_17 on Nov 11, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

Renting out space in the stadium to raise money for the team is part and parcel of owning and operating the team.

by JoshNY on Nov 11, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Cameron in LF

Does WAR weight defense according to the expected number of chances. A good defender in CF is worth more than a good defender in LF because he will get more plays. I don’t think it does.

Cameron however is still easily valuable enough both offensively and defensively to be the second best option in LF if Holliday isn’t signed.

by DoghouseBlues on Nov 11, 2009 1:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Uh, WAR DOES do that. Very well, actually.

In addition to UZR runs saved, there’s a position adjustment.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 11, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the clarification

I had thought the fielding component of WAR came from a UZR rate. Otherwise, with two equally good fielders in the same position, the one who luckily has more chances will have a higher WAR.

And I had assumed that the position adjustment was more of a reflection of the difficulty or scarcity of a given position—as opposed to the importance of that position.

by DoghouseBlues on Nov 11, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So, we should avoid Cameron because he's too good defensively?

Apparently, you can have too much outfield defense. Who knew?

by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 11, 2009 1:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like logic that Omar would use

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Middle east Mets

If you go to that Israel-Palestine article, be sure to click on “View all comments” at the bottom. Loonier than the typical NY Post comments, and that’s saying something.

by Mex_17 on Nov 11, 2009 1:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

be sure not to, he means

by letsgocyclones on Nov 11, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ugh

I absolutely do not want Halladay, at least at what his likely price will be. to old and too much money to empty a farm system that’s just starting to be average, especially with so many other holes/question marks that we’d be unable to fill due to a lack of prospect/money after trading for Halladay.

and this

“Mets avoid Mike Cameron because his defense would somehow be wasted in left field.

” is the stupidest thing I’ve read/heard today. And I’m in class all day so I heard copious amounts of stupid.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 2:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed on the Cameron thing

I would love to have Cameron in LF. It seems Holliday would want a stupid contract so if that falls through, Cameron would be a welcome addition.

I have yet to see you throw cold water on the O-dog zealots. It turns out he stayed healthy and played better defense than Castillo (not hard, I know). The off-season is long so we await the o-dog hate.

by Coolpapabell on Nov 11, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Halladay

If you can piece a package that includes:
F-Mart, Parnell, Pelfrey, and Tejada.
I still think our system is in good shape. The contract would hurt though.

by Coolpapabell on Nov 11, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Our system is in good shape

But who are you sending out behind Johan and Halladay, not to mention i’m not sure that package would get it done with Pelfrey’s struggles. Plus with the contract, and with no F-mart and not really being able to put together many more packages how would you fill other holes short-term or long-term? Who are our long-term corner outfielders?

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And by long-term I mean like 2010/2011 not like 2015.

short-term I mean more injury replacement types.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am not sure also

Well, the LF spot is dependent on bringing in Matt Holliday. If you sign Holliday, then Fernandito becomes expendable. You also have Pagan as a back up option if anyone gets hurt.

As for the rotation, you can bring in one of Marquis, Wolf, Garlnd and Pineiro. Then take a hot with Harden, or Bedard.

Johan
Halladay
Piniero/Wolf/Marquis
Harden/Bedard
Maine
O.P.
Niese
Figgy

by Coolpapabell on Nov 11, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But what are the odds they bring in Holliday

And pay Halladay, and then Harden/Bedard? That’s a huge amount of money from a team that isn’t getting a lot taken off the books, which was my point earlier adding Halladay, and resigning him which I would assume you’d have to do to make the trade, would make them much less likely to sign any other big players. I don’t think there’s any chance they’d do Halladay and Holliday, much less Halladay, Holliday, Bedard/Harden and another free agent pitcher.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thinking out loud

Maruis/Wolf/Pineiro- $10M/2
Harden/Bedard- $7M/1 +incentives
Holliday-$18/rapage

$35M- doesn’t break the budget, but Halladay would be another $13M. With Bedard/ Haren gone, that frees up only $7M. That would be tough. The year after Ollie will be out freeing up $10M. $17M for Halladay, but arrby increases from other places washes that away. Yeah, Halladay would be tough.

by Coolpapabell on Nov 11, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus there's Reyes's extension coming up soon

Around the time Ollie is expiring I believe, and I think 35 million might break the budget, the Wilpons haven’t exactly been tripping over themselves to add big to the payroll. With about 13 million coming off the books, when you add in contract increases, I’d really be shocked to see them spend more than 20 million, if that much in free agency.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If Pelfrey was shipped away, I guess it'd be:

Santana
Halladay
Maine
Perez
Niese

All in all, that just leaves us with the same problem we had this year- a back of the rotation I have no real faith in, where people who belong at the end are bumped up because of lack of depth. But, then again, what team does have a back of the rotation they have faith in?

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think most teams have back ends they have faith in

I don’t think you have to expect them to be all-world to have faith in them, just know what to expect. With those 3 you really wouldn’t have any idea what you’d be getting into between Niese’s arm holding up over a full season, Maine’s arm holding up at all, and Ollie being Ollie.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

except that this year there was no faith in ANYONE past Johan.

so Johan + Halladay is, by default, an improvement.

by fxcarden on Nov 11, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Also cold water on the o-dawg zealots?

I have no idea what that means

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hudson hate

Last off-season I remember you were ardentley cautioning against Hudson on Metsblog. Though you were right that Castillo would bounce back, Hudson did have a good year too.

by Coolpapabell on Nov 11, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

oh I didnt expect castillo to bounce back

I was just against investing so much money in one position, I think most of my objections were from when Hudson was still expected to get around 11-13 million, so we’d be looking at 17-19 million invested in a position and getting no where near that kind of production.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let's not sign Holliday or any other good bat for that matter

because their offense would somehow be wasted in the cavernous citi field.

Idiots

by Delgado on Nov 11, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you, finally someone agrees with me about Halladay.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 11, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want them to break the farm for him

but he is an awesome pitcher, and if he were a F.A. I’d want them to be on him like white on rice

by cjmulrain on Nov 12, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

On a scale of Jose Reyes to David Eckstein

where does Figgins rate for his grittiness?

If he’s not at least around an Alex Cora or so, I just can’t see the Phillies going for him.

by shwebsi on Nov 11, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

He's just below Jimmy Rollins on the gritty scale.

They’re both short which is good, but black which is bad. They’re both base stealers and infielders which is good. Rollins has a lousy OBP which is good (for grittiness) and Figgins has a good one which is bad.

by dtro on Nov 11, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Stuff

We’re favorites to land Halladay? That’s news to me. Good news, but…And, we all know that we’re not a 70-win team when we actually have players who are not injured, so…

What the hell is John Harper talking about? Since when does throwing money at a problem fix it? That sounds like the Yankee modus operandi. Payroll =/= success. Randomly throwing money at players is exactly why we’re in the situation we’re in right now, with the Alex Cora contracts, the Luis Castillo contracts, the Tim Redding contracts…

What a bunch of crap, with that Middle East article. We can rent our facilities to whoever we like. Screw anyone who says otherwise (and that was some crappy BSing in the snippets of the anti-letters that were mentioned). Hell, if the Yankees wanted to have their World Series party in our facilities, let them. That’s just more revenue/PR for us.

Scott Boras is such a good BSer. I can’t stand the guy, but credit is due.

Carlos Gomez…How do we get blamed for rushing him to the Majors? Since when did the Twins need to keep him at the MLB level for the past two years?

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 2:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I bet Holliday remains with the Cards, while Bay goes back to Boston, and we are left sucking wind with Pagan.

in the meantime, we won’t trade for Halladay either, and our improvement will be limited to someone like Randy Wolf, and Omar will spin it that when healthy, we can compete with anyone.

by fxcarden on Nov 11, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's basically what Im expecting.

and then somehow he’ll be able to come up with another excuse next year as to why we’re one piece away, ala the bullpen in 08 and not get fired after we fail to live up to the hype next year.

by Gina on Nov 11, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That Halladay article

was kind of meh. The guy just listed 11 teams and a player or two he knew from each one. And referring to the Mets as a 70 win team, as if that’s their baseline is pretty misleading. Also, noted minor league expert Jim Bray of the National Post says the “Mets’ farm system is largely bare,” because I’m sure he knows all about it.

by dtro on Nov 11, 2009 3:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Apparently, the Tigers are shopping Granderson

but, as Cerrone says, he’s “not so great from a day-to-day, little things, fundamentally sound, trying-to-win-games point of view”.
That is debatedly the worst informed quote of the year. I’m not even kidding. What, Curtis Granderson doesn’t try to win games? He isn’t good day to day, only over the course of the season? If that’s true, then how is he good at all? When does he fit in his positive contributions if he doesn’t do them day to day?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 11, 2009 4:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs