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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

AAOP: What does AAOP stand for anyway?

OK, here's my plan:

  1. Trade Carlos Beltran to the New York Yankees for Brett Gardner
  2. Trade Brad Holt and Jeurys Familia to the Marlins for Dan Uggla
  3. Trade John Maine for Kelly Shoppach
  4. Trade Louis Castillo and $5M to the Cubs for Aaron Heilman
  5. Trade Bobby Parnell and Brian Stokes to the Reds for Aaron Harang
  6. Trade Dan Murphy to the Orioles for Felix Pie
  7. Sign free agents Matt Holliday, Nick Johnson, Jason Marquis, Rafael Betancourt, and Juan Uribe

Lineup: Reyes, Pie, Wright, Holliday, Johnson, Uggla, Pagan, Shoppach

Bench: Francoeur, Gardner, Cora, Carter, Santos, Uribe

Rotation: Santana, Harang, Marquis, Pelfrey, Perez

Pen: K-Rod, Betancourt, Heliman, Feliciano, Misch, Nieve

Star-divide

Beltran for Gardner

This move makes sense to both teams for me. I don't trust Beltran's knees much at this point in CF, even when healthy he's probably not a better than average defender anymore. And I'd just rather spend that $18M elsewhere, on a younger player like Matt Holliday. Beltran has a no trade clause, and wants to stay in NY, but would likely accept a deal to the Yankees. This also likely would keep the Yankees out of the bidding for Holliday. Gardner is a solid young CF who plays good defense, and I can use him along with Pagan, Martinez, and another trade aquisition (Felix Pie) as an option to cover CF for me.

Holt and Familia for Uggla

Uggla is about a +3 to +4 WAR player who will only make maybe $7M. The Marlins are looking for young pitching in return. Plenty of other teams are interested as well, but this might be as good a fit as the Marlins are likely to find. Some other teams are looking to move Uggla off 2B, which would hurt his value. For the Mets, he could solidify the 2B spot for several years to come. Uggla seems to get a somewhat undeserved bad rap on the defensive end, where he's a bit below average, but not enough to even think of moving for me considering the value of his bat. UZR has him -2.9 runs per 150 games and Total Zone has him -5.5 runs per 1200 innings. But he'll be about +15 runs offensively for the position in the same time.  I also think his bat has not yet peaked; there are improvements there in plate discipline over the last 2 years which will pay future dividends. He had a career low BABIP in 2009.

Maine for Shoppach

Both of these guys have been mentioned as potential non-tenders, but that seems very unlikely for both, as both are too valuable for that. Shoppach was a bit of a letdown in 2009, but he's still a young catcher with a career .776 OPS in over 1000 PA.  Maine was a disappointment last year as well, but should be healthy in 2010, and has some pretty good career numbers himself for a young pitcher. Cleveland has some depth in catching prospects and considers Shoppach expendable. And they are another team looking for low cost young starting pitching. This looks like a good match to me for both teams.

Castillo for Heilman

The Mets would certainly pick up some salary to move Castillo, and the Cubs seem very interested, as they are looking for more OBP near the top of their lineup. Heilman is another guy who has been mentioned as a potential non-tender, so I think it might be possible to get him included in return for picking up some of that salary. Heilman got off to a rough start last season, but over the second half was beginning to look more like his old effective self, allowing only a .243 BA, a .727 OPS, and a 1.1 WHIP after the all-star break.

Parnell and Stokes for Harang

With Harang owed $12.5M/yr for the next two, and the Reds needing to shed salary, his trade value may be reasonable. On the other hand, Ollie Perez's similar contract makes Harang look like a steal at that price. Harang is coming off two seemingly middling years in wins and runs allowed, but he's a guy who throws strikes, and gets a good number of swings and misses.  Really he's a solid #3 SP who could pitch up even to a #2 type SP numbers in Citifield. I don't really know if this will be enough to persuade Cincinnati, but I don't want to give up too much here, as there are too many other options at this price.

Murphy for Pie

The Orioles have some outfield depth with Jones, Markakis, and Reimold, confinig Pie to 4th OF status. So they might be willing to deal him. Pie is a solid defensive CF with good tools and a quick bat. He only has a .688 OPS for his young career so far, but broke out in the second half last season with an .842 OPS in the second half. In the long run, I believe in this kid's bat, and think he'll be a solid starter. Maybe I'm being unrealistic in trying to get him for Murphy, but the Orioles are in need of a 3B, and I do think that might be Murphy's most natural fit.

Matt Holliday

Holliday will likely get more years than he's worth, but as long as the final bill is under 6/110M I think he's probably worth it. I really need a middle order bat here, especially if I'm dealing Beltran, and I'm much more comfortable relying on Holliday to be healthy and continue to produce for that money. The Mets have some money to spend and this is the best guy available this offseason. He gives you solid defense in LF while adding another David Wright level bat to the lineup.

Nick Johnson

If I'm parting ways with Delgado, and making Holliday and Uggla my top offensive additions, I'm really going to need one real professional left handed bat in the middle of that lineup to add some balance, and Johnson is the best available. The Mets have some promising young lefties coming along, but Johnson is a guy you can drop in the middle of a lineup that includes Wright, Holliday, and Uggla, and pretty well guarantee yourself some monster run production. He has had some trouble staying healthy, but when on the field he's been a lock for a .400+ OBP, with decent pop. I'm not too worried about the missed time, as I've got Chris Carter as a LF/1B guy, in addition to Fernando Martinez and Ike Davis waiting in the wings for opportunities to get at bats. Down the road, I'll be hoping for Davis to take over the 1B spot, allowing me to save the money I'm spending on Johnson, but for now Johnson could hold down the spot well for the next 2 years.

Jason Marquis

Marquis is a solid reliable mid-rotation SP who was born on Long Island and happens to actually want to be a Met. He's been a steady average SP over the last 23 years. Statcorner.com, using tRA, has him at +1.8,+1.5, and +2.2 WAR for the past 3 seasons. Fangraphs, using FIP, has +1.7, +1.8, and +3.8. He's probably not really as good as last years numbers, but a solid average +2.0 WAR might be a reasonable expectation. That's worth $8M-$9M a year for a couple of seasons.

Rafael Betancourt

I really didn't want to be spending money on relief pitching here, but I ended up needing to use a lot of young pitching as trade chips, and don't really have enough in the pipeline yet to expect to fill those holes. If I'm spending the money though, I'm going for quality and getting a reliable set up man. It is not yet clear whether Betancourt will be available. The Rockies have a $5M option, which they should really just pick up, but they are trying to save money by negotiating a 2-year deal at a lower rate. I generally don't like spending money on older relievers, but Betancourt has plus stuff across the board per pitchFX, and never seems to have had a problem throwing strikes. And with all the other FA moves I'm making, I won't lose too much in the way of a draft pick this year even if the Rockies offer arbitration.

Juan Uribe

It's possible someone else will offer a starting spot somewhere, but if Uribe has to settle for a bench role, I would hope there's a chance of luring him here. I'm certainly briging back Alex Cora as well, for another $2M deal, but a few million more on Uribe would be money well spent, and would really help solidify a productive bench.

Poll
How would you grade the above plan?
0. Trade Beltran?? DIE!!!
33 votes
1. Wow, trading Beltran is stupid, but at least it's not as bad as last year when you wanted to trade Reyes
14 votes
2. I've seen worse, but that's still a mediocre team that will win about 84 games
3 votes
3. Pretty good plan, I like a lot of these ideas
1 votes
4. Awesome job, you should really be a GM!
2 votes

53 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

Comment 35 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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If we're trading Beltran

why not at least get, ya know, something good? We could at least get Buchholz and then some from the Sox. And that’s just the beginning. Sorry, but this might be the worst one yet.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 12, 2009 4:09 PM EST reply actions  

I don't see it

Hey if I thought I could get Buchholz, I would do that instead.

by acerimusdux on Nov 12, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

But Brett Gardner???

That’s like trading Reyes for Mike Fontenot. Beltran would have a ton of value if you were going to trade him.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Nov 12, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't condone trading Beltran for a bench piece.

In a season which he missed considerable amount of time to an injury he still posted a WAR of almost 3. Upon returining from the injury he showed no signs of ill effect from his recovery. Granted the knee is a cause for some trepidation in the future, but I think a move to a corner spot would be more fitting than sending him on his way for a light hitting replacement.
I’m not a fan of the Dan Uggla idea either. While he’s an above average hitter, his fielding is on par with Castillo, and I think this impacts not only Pelfrey, but Marquis who you would like to sign as well. Both are groundball type pitchers that would be negatively impacted by a second baseman with as little range as Uggla.

Alex Cora is in no way worth 2 million dollars.

I like the idea of adding Stoppach, Holliday, Harang, and Johnson, and Betancourt would be nice if available as well. Pie is an interesting idea, he’s a decent 4th OF but murph might be overpaying slightly for him. Uribe would be an ok defensive utility piece if he would take such a role, but his OBP barely cracking 0.3 is cause for some concern, especially with frenchy and cora on the bench as well.

by KeithsMoustache on Nov 12, 2009 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Defense

First off, a WAR of 2.9 isn’t very good for $18M. At that price you need to expect a WAR of 4+. Second, the bench piece you don’t think is worth as much also had a WAR of 2.1 in 108 games last year, for a salary of $409k . So how many additional wins does Beltran really give you for that $18M?

Sure, Beltran could bounce back and give you a WAR of 6. But what are the odds really? How much can you count on that? Beltran was a great signing at the time, but at this stage we’re talking about a 33 year old with knee problems, and questionable reliability. Yes, you could move him to LF, but wouldn’t you rather have Holliday there for the same price, for similar production and more of a sure thing?

As for defense, Beltran graded out below average last year in UZR for the first time in years. Having seen other CFer age, I wouldn’t be surprised if that continued. Beltran may be as big a liability defensively as Uggla right now. Statistical evidence suggests to me that below average defense in the infield isn’t nearly as costly as below average defense in the outfield. The ball gets there quick in the infield, range ends up just not making a big difference there. Range is huge in the OF. The cost effective move to me seems to be to go for Uggla’s bat, which more than makes up for his slightly below average defense, and then shore up the defense by adding younger and quicker players to replace Beltran in the OF.

I think under rating the importance of outfield range is also probably why you are under valuing Pie with respect to Murphy. I see Pie as easily the more valuable talent there.

As for Cora, the only reason he wasn’t worth $2M was because he played through injuries most of last year which hurt his performance. In the situation the Mets were in though, they needed him to gut it out and play through it, because the alternatives were worse. Look at the prior two years though, and fangraphs has him worth over $2M for 4 of the previous 5 years. His average value for those 5 years was actually over $3M a year.

I tend to value depth pretty highly. To me, it’s worth spending the extra few million on these bench guys if needed to ensure you have guys who can actually play some. I don’t want guys like Anderson Hernandez and Cory Sullivan anywhere near the MLB roster.

by acerimusdux on Nov 12, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I won't dignify this with a fully thought out response but a few points

if you’re going to have a rotation with two groundball pitchers, 2b defense is critically important.

Beltran came back after his injury and played CF without any issue, and in a worst case scenario where his knees wouldnt tolerate CF all season we would save his knees by putting him in left. Beltran posted a WAR of almost 3 in half a season (81 games), which projects to 6 if he was healthy all year, which is the kind of WAR he puts up almost every year.
I will repeat, Cora is in no way worth spending 2 million on , even when healthy.

by KeithsMoustache on Nov 12, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Even if you value Beltran and Gardner similarily, for whatever reason

You do know that you can definitely get much more for him, right? Much, much, much more.

by boom_roasted on Nov 12, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

Makes the rest of the plan not even worth dignifying with a read.

by Joamiq on Nov 13, 2009 6:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Beltran's UZR

Do we know the extent to which UZR is still using Shea park factors instead of CitiField’s? That seems pretty relevant.

Also, from Ben Baumer’s presentation, UZR is affected by the defensive play of your teammates. Could Sheffield / Murphy have affected Beltran’s UZR?

by mnbv on Nov 12, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Shea Park lol

Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.

by Bobby Baseball on Nov 13, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

he played half a season...

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 12, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, and he was 6.7 in 2008

And you want to trade him for someone who isn’t even the Yankees CF???

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Nov 14, 2009 6:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Stopped reading

After step 1. I’m sorry, but are you out of your mind? Brett Gardner?

I can’t even tell if this is serious or not.

by njk237 on Nov 12, 2009 4:32 PM EST reply actions  

I'm confused

1, 2, 4, Alex Cora, and batting Felix Pie 2nd seem like an obvious joke.

But then you get kinda serious. There is no mention of grission and you put Francoeur on the bench.

by boom_roasted on Nov 12, 2009 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

This is the worst plan on here. Sorry, I gave it 0.

Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.

by Bobby Baseball on Nov 12, 2009 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

LOL

This is an awesome plan, and I voted accordingly. Then again, I’m going on vacation for 2 weeks, and who gives a shit.

by fxcarden on Nov 12, 2009 5:25 PM EST reply actions  

you lobby for job in scouting

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Nov 14, 2009 6:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Beltran is 32

Not 42. I know that in recent years players seem to be bottoming out a little faster, but Beltran, injuries aside (knock on wood) still has 1-2 prime years left.

by njk237 on Nov 12, 2009 5:27 PM EST reply actions  

Beltran for Gardner?

lol

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 12, 2009 6:24 PM EST reply actions  

Beltran for Garnder is not necessarily a bad trade

depending on how you project Gardner/calculate his surplus value. This is what I was talking about the other day in my article about the trade market: teams will are more willing to deal known quantities that receive salaries at or around their value for player with lots of team control and good value. You can argue that in the market Beltran has greater worth than Gardner, but that’s different than strict value. I also don’t think he envisions Gardner as a bench only guy, but in a rotation with Pie.

I do think you’re underestimating Beltran’s ability to return to form, but I certainly appreciate you being creative in bringing in multiple CF types. I voted 3.

by Sam Page on Nov 12, 2009 6:52 PM EST reply actions  

clarification before I get flamed

I think this trade sucks for the 2010 Mets and puts us back a good bit in terms of winning. I also hate Cora and Marquis. But I gave points for creative thinking.

by Sam Page on Nov 12, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

also, it would never, ever happen.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 12, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

actually feasibility is 100

because the point of being feasible is to prevent making the Mets too good by trading Parnell for Pujols. The Yankees would instantly accept this offer.

by Sam Page on Nov 13, 2009 1:53 AM EST up reply actions  

wait, we can't trade Parnell for Pujols?

crap, gotta re-write my plan. What if I threw in Stokes?

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Nov 13, 2009 3:53 AM EST up reply actions  

i threw in some oatmeal

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 13, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

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