On Baseball And Randomness
In his latest wonderful polemic over at TedQuarters.net, friend of the enlightenment Ted Berg sounds off on baseball's flat-earth socity.
I know this for sure, though: If you don’t understand why a .220 hitter could be the hero of the World Series or a guy who hits three home runs a year can win the pennant-clincher with a home run, you do not deserve to be a high-ranking official with one of the 30 big-league clubs.
/.../
It’s random. It’s a random game and a random world and randomness pervades everything. Sometimes things don’t need explanations. They just happen, especially in extremely small sample sizes.
I really don’t even want to fight this battle anymore. I recognize that some people will never agree, and they’ll just think A-Rod magically became clutch this year after being unclutch for three postseasons and clutch in the two before those. I mean, hey, it’s the magic of Kate Hudson!
He's right, of course. His trenchant remarks about the inability (or intransigent refusal) of some people to accept certain truths about the universe -- and about baseball, by extension -- never ceases to amaze or befuddle me. I recently answered some questions for a Q&A with Jason Fry from Fear And Faith In Flushing, which may or may not appear in the forthcoming Maple Street Mets Preview annual, where I essentially echoed Berg's sentiments. I have no idea if the interview will ever see the light of day, so here's the relevant bit.
Jason Fry: Give me your take on the familiar debate re stats vs. grit/feel/phrenology/however you want to define it?
Eric Simon: We would all prefer to root for a team full of players who all appear to be trying their hardest, who seem to enjoy every moment of the game, who get along with each other, who give great interviews and spend their spare time with underprivileged children. The problem is that, to the best of our understanding, none of those things propels a player's value above and beyond what can be measured using the best analytical and scouting tools we have at our disposal.
There are really two main classes of intangibles: hustle and heart. A player who is constantly hustling but only gets on base 30% of the time isn't really more valuable than an apparently lazy player who reaches base with the same frequency. Rather, it is his work ethic that allows the scrappy player to reach base as often as he does, whereas a loafer with the same exact skill set might only reach base 28% or 29% of the time. There's no hidden value to hustle, I'm afraid, even if it is more pleasing to the eye.
Heart, or the fatuous idea that some players "want it more" or "will their teammates to victory", is just a feel-good placeholder that people like to use to explain the role that randomness plays in baseball, particularly during short playoff series. Random variation isn't a compelling narrative. When the light-hitting shortstop belts three homeruns in the LCS or the underdog beats the best team in the league in the World Series, it's satisfying to say that they did so because they were gritty or because they stepped it up in a big spot or because some player on the other team always chokes when it matters the most. The reality is that the worst team in baseball will still beat the best team 20-30% of the time, and if over a stretch of three or five or seven games they happen to win 50% or 75% or 100% of the time, that's easily explained (and proven) by cold, unfeeling randomness.
I think people still accept intangible explanations for baseball events because they've been fed to us for as long as people have written about sports, and we're at a point where these sentiments no longer have any content. Everyone will readily acknowledge that if a player goes 4-for-5 with two homeruns on Opening Day that he probably won't hit .800 with 324 homeruns for the season. We've all seen Albert Pujols go hitless for a week and we've seen Omir Santos hit .500 over the same span. We all know that Pujols isn't a .000 hitter and that Santos isn't a .500 hitter, so the concept of random variation in baseball is easily recognizable by almost anyone. So why do we pick and choose when to apply that filter?
Maybe there are other intangible qualities that do tangibly contribute to a player's value, but we don't know what those qualities are nor do we have any reasonable way of measuring them. Until someone can show me what one player's grission is worth compared to another's, I'm inclined to relegate them all to the dustbin of rhetorical devices.
There is plenty more to be said on this topic, but I'll leave it at this for a Friday.
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I like baseball
What I’ve always liked about baseball is that one can follow or talk about a game as a stat-head, or obsess about it with every superstition in the book. Late in a game I will wear a rally-cap. Don’t tell me it has no power. (Hell – I even have a rally-poncho which has worked magic in the past.)
But seriously, I don’t know why morons like Silva keep stirring the pot. Maybe because it is an easy way to get a column written without using your brain. Who knows?
Grission and Husart - that is either the non-union Mexican equivelant of "Starsky and Hutch" or the key to winning the World Series.
Easy answer
But seriously, I don’t know why morons like Silva keep stirring the pot.
Because if no one linked to him in order to point out what an idiot he was, he’d have no traffic.
by dcmetsfan on Nov 13, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah I see he used the "anonymous" baseball exec
again. Great job, Mike
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 13, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think...
it’s statements like this: “There’s no hidden value to hustle, I’m afraid, even if it is more pleasing to the eye.” that make the grission fans claim that stat heads aren’t watching a game but rather a spread sheet. In fact there is value to hustle if hustle brings up a player’s OBP, or allows him to get to 5 or 6 addition sinking liners a season. The problem is that hustle is only applicable on an individual basis. In other words, if Hustle guy “A” increases his value through his hustle, but it still only brings him to the level of the much more (naturally) talented Lazy guy B, A is no more valuable than B, though he might be more fun to watch. Also, seeing guy A allows us to say, “imagine how good B would be if he hustled like A.” I think grission fans think the stat heads take the fun out of watching the game because they perceive that stat heads don’t appreciate hustle.
Of course, at the end of the day it all still comes down to how many outs you create on defense and how many you don’t create on offense. Hustle or no hustle.
by Dapoil on Nov 13, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
the key word is *HIDDEN*
Hustle, or lack thereof, affects the players’ results, which is seen in the stats. I always get the feeling that some people want to add the value of hustle/grission/whatever to the stats, which is essentially adding it twice.
i.e. The .220 hitter who would be a .190 hitter if he did not hustle already has the .030 value of the hustling included in his average.
by erich10031 on Nov 13, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
It’s true that Player A who hustles to have a .300 OBA is not as valuable as Player B who is lazy and has a .400 OBA. But, we are human beings, emotionally invested in our teams for irrational reasons, and when we see Player B being a lazy fuck, it makes our blood boil, because if he actually hustled, maybe he’d have a .410 OBA, instead of .400.
We all want “our” players to maximize their talents, and lazy players do not do that. And I know that it’s simplistic to label a player “lazy”, some players loaf more than others, and all players loaf occasionally. No one runs out every ball.
But it’s irritating to me to see Player B jog on a routine groundball, then get thrown out even after the SS boots the ball. Shit like that makes me hate that player, even if he has a higher OBA than scrubby Player A who runs 100% on every groundball.
We, as fans, like players who try their hardest. I don’t know why that concept is so bizarre to stat heads. We want our players to want to win as much as we want them to win.
If everything in baseball must be exclusively number related, with absolutely no human emotion ever, then why even “root” for a team? On paper, the Yankees usually have a team with a higher WAR than the Mets. So then why do you root for the Mets? That’s illogical. (1) “Rooting” accomplishes nothing. (2) Why do you want an inferior WAR team to beat a superior WAR team? It’s like spinning a roulette wheel and “rooting” for green to hit.
If you said to someone, “I like green on the roulette wheel. I’ve been following green all my life, and I’m a diehard green fan. I always watch the wheel spin and scream for green to come up, even though red and black are much more likely.” People would assume you are f-ing nuts. The Mets are green on the roulette wheel. Actually, historically, the Mets are an even worse bet than green on the wheel.
Sports are all ineherently emotional and non-sensical, so berating fans for liking to watch players hustle is nuts. It’s gotten to the point where you go off on anyone who likes to see a player hustle. Is that the goal?
If a random scrub like Murphy hits a one-hopper to 2B, runs at top speed down the line anyway, then manages to reach safely when the 1B bobbles the ball momentarily, and a fan exclaims, “Yes! Great hustle by Murphy!” Is it really necessary to crap all over that fan, like the fan is a total asshole for applauding a player’s hustle?
Because that’s pretty much the direction this is going.
Apples and oranges
We’re not talking about fan perception here. We’re talking about contributions to winning games. Again — ad nauseum, it seems — we would all rather root for great guys, guys who seem to be trying their hardest, guys whom your mom can be proud of. Nobody is “crap[ping] all over that fan”, nor is there a thing wrong with rooting for hard-working players. We all do it. If someone says you’re wrong for rooting for (or preferring to watch) hustlers, don’t listen to them. It’s not for them to decide what sort of players you should enjoy watching. Nobody is debating that point, so let’s just set it aside forever now.
The argument I’m making is that those things have no tangible effect on scoring or preventing runs apart from what can be readily measured using tools we’re all familiar with. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but whatever satisfaction you may derive from watching a player bust his tail is, for all intents, irrelevant to the Mets’ chances of winning.
in Mex's defense
anyone who expresses a liking for Omir Santos or Jeff Francouer around here is liable to get burned at the stake. I think it’s one thing to want your team to be put together in a smart way, and to use the best analysis available to do so, but once the team is put together (and with the Mets, its very rarely in the best possible way), I don’t think rooting for guys like that to fail is productive in any way. And for me, in a lot of ways, it’s fun to root for guys like Omir (Francouer not as much), who obviously don’t have the most talent but definitely outperformed expectations last year. I don’t want the Mets to rely on him in any way shape or form next year, but knowing them, they will, and I’m gonna root for him to buck the odds again.
I think that’s sorta the thing, and I think that’s where a lot of the friction with the “regular” fans come in. I think the perception (fairly or not) seems like the fans who are into advanced analysis would prefer an Omir Santos to fail so that their analysis is confirmed, rather than rooting for him to succeed. I’m not saying that’s how it really is (though I certainly think it’s true in some instances), but I definitely think that’s the perception that a lot of Joe Metsblog fans have.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
I get what you're saying
and there are certainly folks who do behave that way, but I don’t think most of the people here can be lumped into that group. I’ll speak for myself, but time and again I’ve expressed my support for guys like Santos and Francoeur, who a) seem like good guys, and b) were on the Mets and for whom I’ve rooted by default.
Again, I have no problem with rooting for these guys, but liking them isn’t really a defense for keeping them around from the standpoint of winning baseball games.
It’s a rare Met whom I actually root for to fail. I can’t even think of one offhand. I’m happy to poke fun at guys who fail (e.g. the Francoeur/Santos race to .300 OBP), but as long as they’re around I’ll be rooting for them to succeed. I might also be rooting for them to be replaced by more productive players, but that’s a different story.
Again, I’m speaking for myself here, but I think most of the people here feel this way, too. Not everyone, but most.
If you're a Met fan cheering for a Met player to do poorly
you’re a crappy fan. I’ll cheer for anyone in a Mets uniform, i just wish they’d be more careful about who they gave that uniform to.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 15, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
yea
I didn’t mean my previous post to sound like an attack on you – I obviously love what you do here and I agree with you way more often than I disagree with you. I was trying to talk more about the perception that some outsiders might get if they read some of the game threads or one of the two million fanshots about Jeff Francouer after the trade haha.
Of course, I’d rather be lumped in with a group of people who are thought to hate Omir Santos and Jeff Francouer than a group of people who hate David Wright and Carlos Beltran
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
do you really think that a player with a .400 OBP is going to be lazy?
See, here’s my problem. Leaving aside the whole fact that ALL players are in the majors, where it’s super competitive, the best ones have the most drive, or else they wouldn’t be playing that well. Sure, other guys may hustle or whatever, but I refuse to believe that their extra work ethic wouldn’t show up in their overall stats as to the actual impact their hustle had. So if Murphy beat out that play, his OBP would be better than if he hadn’t, etc.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Bonus points
for working the word grission into your answer.
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
And of course, as with everything in life,
St. Derek — maker of blind men to see and lame men to walk — is exempted from this discussion.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
DAMN!
I left off “Inventor of Grission.”
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
it's OK Ted
You can tell us that the “high-ranking official” works for the Mets. We’re adults. We can take it.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
also
How do you account a .220 hitter for being the hero of the World Series…?
This question is even stupider than the rest of what the “high-ranking official” says. Carlos Pena hit .227 this season. He also hit 39 HRs and had an OPS+ of 130. If he ends up the hero of a future World Series, would anyone even be surprised (other than this nitwit official)?
Geez, batting average. I thought even the creationists in MLB and the media had gotten past that one….
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
It really is incredible
I remember as a kid thinking that grownups in positions of power must be smart. That guy runs a baseball team? Must be bright. He’s in Congress? Must be 10x smarter than the average person.
I long for those days of innocence.
It’s amazing how ignorance is not only tolerated, but celebrated, as if it’s a badge of honor.
i love how even baseball can fuel my elitism
seriously, there are many stupid and/or stubborn people who work in this game. it’s amazing how many people just don’t get it, in baseball and in life generally.
I've always wondered
When I was a kid playing little league, almost everything was about the “spirit of the game.” Hustling on and off the field, not playing with the grass in right field, making a ‘good cut’, etc. Maybe since most people didn’t get beyond that level of play, they can’t get over that baseball is a complex kinda sport.
Seriously, when I was 13, my coach gave me an award for being a good example to the others. You see, we had this one kid, David, who was terrible. Rules forced the coach to play everyone at least three innings a game. That meant that some of us lower-level players had to sit so he could pick his nose and the grass in the outfield. I was the only person who didn’t throw a fit when it happened to me, so I got an award. (FYI – I was not going to get an award for my batting or fielding, which was not great. I have the stats to prove the batting – and I have a good feeling about my fielding.)
Now, that is a great lesson for the kids. Be a nice team player and the whole unit can do better. But it is a world that only works when your parents pay a fee so you can be on a team. On the professional level, all those touchy-feely baseball ideals are just window-dressing.
Hustle, grission, and leadership are all subjective qualities. They are the kind of things a coach would yell about after the game. (“You needed to hustle more, dammit! Now go get your slice of pizza and a small soda!!!”) That kind of crap also works in post-game interviews on tee-vee. Like Ted said, they are good rhetorical devices. It makes them an easy crutch for small-minded people.
Grission and Husart - that is either the non-union Mexican equivelant of "Starsky and Hutch" or the key to winning the World Series.
All good points
Though the “rhetorical devices” bit was mine. I guess I didn’t make clear in the post above that the second highlighted bit was my response to a question posed to me.
Sorry for the Confusion.
It has been a long week.
Grission and Husart - that is either the non-union Mexican equivelant of "Starsky and Hutch" or the key to winning the World Series.
My problem with the stat heads
They have an arrogance about the stats that makes people not want to listen to them. Read a message board with a lot of stat posters and the words idiot, retard, moron, and the like flow faster than the numbers. If I think Francoeur is a player worth keeping (which I do not), I am a complete retard for thinking that because his OPS or whatever alphabet stat you want to use isn’t high enough. Keep talking that way and it won’t matter if you’re right, because everyone will start to ignore you.
Your problem is reading boards with rude people on them
Not stat heads. And really, using the phrase “whatever alphabet stat” puts you on a level with Marty Noble and his ilk, and these are the people being more and more ignored, not the people who care to understand what a few basic terms mean.
I’m not a stat head, myself, I just follow along, but it’s not hard to learn a few basic terms, and it’s not hard to tell stupid from reasoned and intelligent.
I used to coach Youth Hockey, but I’m sure its the same. Any coach worth anything will want the player who tries harder over the talented player that half asses it. If the talented kid is going to manage 10 points in 10 games, it’ll be ten points that really don’t matter. Meanwhile the kid that hustles all the time and plays with heart is going to come through for you when you need it. That’s the difference.
This...
doesn’t make any sense.
by Eric Simon on Nov 13, 2009 9:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
um.....
It would be the same if youth hockey was a multi-billion dollar business. These teams are out there to win and make money. If you play David Eckstein because he runs to first after a walk over Manny Ramirez who dogs it down the line on a groundout sometimes, you’re not going to win and make money.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Nov 13, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
Damon Runyon said it best...
“The race may not always be to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet.”
You want to have the best players playing in the long run. Period. Even if inferior players end up beating you in the short run.
To be fair
Intangibles have been overrated, and to a large degree they are already included in the stats. Maybe not completely in WAR but in WPA at least—or other measurable stats. But we can’t make the mistake of being too reactionary, and as a result throwing them out completely. As fans we’re not privvy to clubhouse or practice dynamics and so we don’t really know and can’t really intelligently comment on players’ leadership qualities, but that doesn’t mean we should then assume that’s it doesn’t play a real factor.
But it’s hard for me to deny—from my own personal experience distance running (I run harder with someone than alone) , running a business (my employees worked harder or smarter depending on they were teamed with or who managed them), etc. We are social animals and we can’t deny that other people and our environment have a real effect in cooperative pursuits. Baseball is more of an individual game—and so it has less of an effect then in other sports (see T.O.), but if I had to make a completely speculative guess, I think it could be worth as much as plus or minus 1 WAR for each player, and maybe average around +/- 0.25. Small, but not insiginficant (and still not worth keeping Cora or Franceour around for.)
I get what you're saying
I’m mostly talking about “heart” and “hustle”, which I think have negligible value beyond what can be measured tangibly. As I’ve said, we’d all rather have a team of great personalities than flaming douchelords, though you’d have a really tough time convincing me that there’s a two-win difference between a great clubhouse guy and an awful one, ignoring for a moment the tall order of somehow quantifying it in the first place. I might buy that the best clubhouse guy is worth a quarter of a win more than the worst clubhouse guy. A quarter of a win is worth around a million bucks, and that’s (possibly) just the disparity between the top and bottom of the ladder. The difference between any two random players will usually be far less than that.
holy shit a quarter of a win is worth $1 million?!!?
clubhouse grission may be more important than we think. A million bucks is a bit more than I make in a year.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Nov 14, 2009 3:16 AM EST up reply actions
and by "a bit"
i mean one million.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Nov 14, 2009 3:16 AM EST up reply actions
You're right, 1 WAR might be a bit high
But Keith Hernandez or Pete Rose might have been worth 1 WAR. A guy that gets a teammate hooked on coke should be worth at least -1 WAR.
My thought process may be flawed here—but a quarter of a win is worth around a million bucks, but that’s only the marginal cost in the Free Agent market. That price gets artificially driven up by the richest teams, teams desperate to fill holes, and bad contracts. If you could suddently create a market for wins and sell them like raffle tickets, I don’t think most teams would pay $1 million for a quarter win.
by DoghouseBlues on Nov 14, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
There's really nothing I want to add on this discussion
But Eric, this post was beautifully written.
www.twitter.com/willDavidian
by All Shook Down on Nov 14, 2009 10:31 AM EST reply actions




























