Mets roundtable discussion, part one: Bloggers weigh in on the state of the team - - NJ.com
Part 1 of a blogger roundtable I participated in at NJ.com. You might be wasting your time, though, as one commenter pointed out:
If Eric Simon was actually watching the games instead of analyzing spreadsheets he would have seen that "playing the game the right way" is probably the biggest reason that a team like the Mets underachieves every year.
Reasons the Mets underachieve every year:
1) They don't play the game the right way
2) They don't have enough grission
.
.
.
99a) They don't score enough runs
99b) They allow too many runs
about 2 years ago
Eric Simon
179 comments
0 recs |
Comments
Don't you just wish
you could watch baseball games being simulated thousands of times on your computer instead of actually watching the games? That would be great. Baseball would be perfect if it was just simulations and stats on spreadsheets.
I guess that guy who commented wouldn’t like the chart in my AAOP.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
I've been kicking around the idea of making AA t-shirts with the slogan:
Amazin’ Avenue: We Wish Baseball Were Played By Robots
Um excuse me
we have a robot playing centerfield already. His name is Carlos Voltron.
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
by meigs1414 on Nov 16, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Despite his Voltronness, though
He’s just not that singular flawless player.
I would not sign on for this slogan
if the game were played by robots than their is still physical matter determining a mathematical equation. I would prefer “Amazin’ Avenue: We Wish Baseball Were Played By Anonymous Algorithms”
Dr. Socks performed an experiment
where he put a baseball, gloves, a bat, and two teams inside of a box. At that instant, both teams had won. According to this experiment, we don’t need to do anything this experiment. We never lost.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
actually at that moment both teams also lost
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 17, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
a good point
plus in the box we’re also undefeated, but we also put up the first ever zero win season… lot of records set in that box.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 17, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
But then they opened the box...
…and a very scared orange cat jumped out, ran past David Wright, and disappeared into the CitiField seats.
i think is clear that the more robots in the world
the better that world becomes. just walk around one day adding the prefix ROBO to everything you encounter and see how happy it makes you. i bet it makes you VERY happy.
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
Amazin Avenue: We lobby good math
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 16, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Put the spreadsheet down Eric
Put it down… and slowly back away :)
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I was almost saddened enough
by Costa’s knuckling under to the stupids in the comments to register and object, but there’s just really never any point to commenting on a newspaper site. Those people get ugly quickly.
But, hey, Brian, if you happen to follow the link back here — the people who comment are IDIOTS. Don’t let them dictate what you write.
Eric
How did you not note the commenter’s pseudonym: “sizzlechest5”? Apparently one of the Jerky Boys is a commenter on Costa’s blog and has it out for you. Btw, it takes a lot for me to literally LOL at something on the Internet, but the sight of “sizzlechest5” just did it.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 16, 2009 7:59 PM EST reply actions
Jerky Boys
always makes me think of that “BAmMM cradle rock style” skit. ALong with Duck CLeaning. Shit was hilarious for a 9 year old.
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Nov 16, 2009 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Eric Simon
Keeping Amazing Avenue afloat in a sea of ignorance
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Nov 16, 2009 9:31 PM EST reply actions
Eric Simon Hates Baseball
He only works on this site because the money is just too good. And as they say in Almost Famous, the chicks are great.
I also liked this comment
And as for the intangibles, veteran leadership, etc, do you think, when looking at the last four years, that maybe LoDuca, Floyd, and Valentin brought something to the 2006 team other than pure stats?
I enjoy when fans cite players with great intangibles that are on good team but fail to explain why say, Floyd’s great leadership failed to lift the 03 to 05 Mets to greatness, why Paulie BigNuts couldnt leader the 07 Mets not to collapse and why Valentin wasnt worth a roster spot after he became a bad player. Intangibles are there, Floyd is often cited for lifting Upton’s play last year and his jersey is actually the only one I own, but c’mon the argument isn’t that intangibles dont matter but that good players can provide these intangibles as well so you might as well build a good team with tangible stats and let the intangibles manifest themselves when the writers need to explain what changed to make a team good. Eh, this comment didn’t come out as well as I hoped but I’ve had too many adult beverages to re-write so…post.
Valentin played mindboggingly well
And also the Phillies weren’t as good. Those things helped, not the leadership bull.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
People should need to apply for licenses before saying things
and stupid people should not be able to get licenses…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 16, 2009 10:24 PM EST reply actions
The more I enlighten myself with the Sabermetrics, the more comfortable I become with it.
But there is a component to baseball, sports, and life that is intangible. Some of the sabermetric community don’t understand that. Again, I’m a little of both. Obviously, if we’re deciding between Barry Bonds (asshole but awesome player) and Jeff Francoeur (smiles a lot, has heart), it’s not even a discussion. But there is a lot to life in general that is immeasurable, and if you build a team of “robot”-like players, and not pay attention to attitude at all, you will build teams like the Yankees of earlier this decade, the most talent on the field, but never winning. Again, don’t kill me over this, increased statistical analysis is GOOD for baseball, in my opinion. Just you guys who are big sabermetricians have to also realize that heart, guts, intangibles, etc. do matter also.
Sorry to highlight you
Just you guys who are big sabermetricians have to also realize that heart, guts, intangibles, etc. do matter also.
I apologize but I have never met someone who thinks that heart, guts, intangibles, etc. dont matter. Certainly no one in this community.
People here talk sarcastically about Francoeur and about how you guys hate him all the time. And for what?
The guy has fun, works his ass off, and truth be told, played really well with the Mets this past year. I feel a little that he wasn’t given a chance. And as that one blogger who is defending Francoeur wrote, it kind of makes sense to in a sense “buy low” on Franceour and wrap him up for 3 or 4 years for ~$5M per. If he’s bad, $5M isn’t that bad, and if he plays well, it’s a bargain. Plus, we kill the Mets for not having enough foresight, so I wouldn’t be that upset if they gambled on a 3 year deal for Franceour. Also, even if his OBP is .290, he will still help the team with his attitude (at least he’ll provide something). There are enough players that don’t give a shit about anything but money, and to tell you the truth, it’s a little refreshing to watch him play.
small sample size alert douchebag
And I care about fucking money. I don’t want my team to pay good money to a player that sucks just because he has fun.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
I'd agree with you here.
But not in your actual argument. Signing Francoeur to an extension is exactly the kind of move a team without foresight would make. Without an understanding of how small sample sizes work, and how regression works, and how that is likely to unfold, we’ll just keep setting ourselves up with guys like Francoeur and Perez who’ve got lots of “promise”, except for the fact that their peripherals from the past few seasons don’t support this “promise” at all.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Boom_Roasted is kinda proving the point. I CARE ABOUT STATS AND SAID A WHOLE BUNCH OF TIMES THAT THEY MATTER MORE. But can't completely ignore a guy's attitude.
It’s just in life also. If there’s a guy in my class who gets 95’s and is a complete asshole, or a guy who gets 90’s and is a nice guy, I’m studying with the second guy. Attitude and personality cares in all aspects of life. But yes, I agree that the Mets should grab the best players. I’m becoming more and more comfortable with the advanced stats because of sites like this (thank you).
It's not "just baseball" though
The Mets are worth almost $1 billion.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
Okay.
But if I’m going to pay all the money I do, I expect the Mets to be responsible businessmen and put the product possible on the field. And I believe (scratch that, I know) the Mets can do much better than Jeff Francoeur. I’m happy for him that he enjoys playing the game. However, he has shown throughout his career, that he is not particularly good (in comparison to his peers) at the game that he loves.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
that kind of mentality is fine if you're picking him up for cheap on a one year deal
but you can’t throw a guy a 4 year 20 million dollar contract in hopes he surprises us. Thats unfortunately what our FO seems to do, and why we get so up in arms about this kind of argument.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
That's okay for a team not in contention...
They can try out a project like Francoeur and hope that he finally lives up to his potential. I just don’t think a team, like the Mets, that wants to compete for a champtionship, should do that.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
That's fair. I understand wanting to go for more certainty, I'm just saying, now that we have the guy, and he will be our right fielder whether we like it or not, we should give him a chance.
And as for the contract, he’s up for arb the next few years, and if he plays this full season the way he finished last year (not totally out of the question) he could shoot to like 8,9, maybe 10 mil. So does it not make even a little sense to buy out his arb years for 5 mil? THe probability that you get a bargain is probably pretty good (considering he’d be up for arb and Mets property anyway).
but why do you think that?
it better be more than a two month spurt of data supported by a high BABIP.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I think that because he's only 25 (prime years start at 27), and he's been very productive before. Combine that, and I tend to think over the next 3 years, he'll be worth more than $15 mil to the Mets. Which is why, while maybe I wouldn't do it,
it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if he got that contract.
There was one BABIP induced small sample size season
Plus good defense the next two seasons gave him some value.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
that's true.
but honestly, the chances seem to be more likely that he wouldn’t even be worth $5 mil.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I don't think people who are upset about Francoeur are talking about rooting against him or disliking him as a person
Delta Airlines promo blog aside, he seems like a decent guy, enjoys the game, does his darn’dest to do everything to help his team win (unless it involves taking a pitch). I think people are upset with the direction and the methodology of the front office more than they are unwilling to root for Francoeur, especially if he performs well. if he manages to perform well.
Most around here seem to think Francoeur can’t or won’t perform well enough to justify his cost, or the opportunity cost of getting someone like Angel Pagan more PAs. But I actually agree with you, that at this point, the fervency of the anti-Francoeur contingent among the generally more statistically enlightened Mets fans borders on irrational. It was a terrible trade at the time, it happened to work out about as well as we could have hoped so far, and that’s not even all that great. But we are where we is, and given that, Frenchy at least deserves our due diligence, and sooner or later, a bit of patience. There is some statistical analysis we can do on a 300 PA sample size. From this article, we have this basic table describing at what point a sample size has a correlation of greater than 0.70:
50 PA: Swing %
100 PA: Contact Rate
150 PA: Strikeout Rate, Line Drive Rate, Pitches/PA
200 PA: Walk Rate, Groundball Rate, GB/FB
250 PA: Flyball Rate
300 PA: Home Run Rate, HR/FB
500 PA: OBP, SLG, OPS, 1B Rate, Popup Rate
550 PA: ISO
Frenchy had 308 PAs post trade, 324 before. A large deviation between these two most recent groups of 300 PAs can reveal some information to us here. We can look at stats like Swing%, Contact rate, K%, LD%, P/PA, BB%, GB%, GB/FB, FB%, HR%, and HR/FB to see if there are any significant enough deviations in these numbers that can help explain the difference.
Unfortunately, we don’t see a real change in Swing%, K%, or contact rate, we see a slight change in LD%, but not one that appears hugely significant, P/PA and BB% also look pretty similar, and when we get to GB% and FB%, we see that the extra line drives were at the sake of grounders almost entirely, and not flyballs. But once we get to HR% and HR/FB, we do see a significant difference. His HR rate doubled in the second half of the season over where it was in the first half, and his HR/FB did the same.
On the other hand, the .344 BABIP is something we can say very little about, other than the odds that it will be lower than that are much better than the odds that it will be higher. The specific odds that it may be .344 probably aren’t all that different from the particular odds that it may be .304, or even .274. There is a large range of possibility here, and all we can really say is that .344 likely is not the mean expectation.
The BABIP issue isn’t the problem, its ancillary, Francoeur’s BABIPs actually follow very typical normal distribution. The problem is the same as its always been: walks. He just walks so little that even if 9.6% of his flyballs are home runs and his BABIP is greater than .320, he would still be just roughly an average player. He would be worth his salary and then some, but whether taking the risk on that happening is worth the opportunity cost of getting Angel Pagan more PAs or bringing in someone else instead is a more difficult question to answer. I currently don’t think there is superior opportunity cost to Francoeur, and that his mean expectation is probably pretty close to the actual, one-year salary that he’ll receive. But buying out his free agent years or offering to pay him any more than $5-6 mil at most in a given season is just not good risk assessment at this point. He just doesn’t have enough upside to justify that kind of risk unless he magically figures out how to draw more walks, and people in Atlanta were saying that for quite a while before us.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 16, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
He's not good
If his OBP is .290, his attitude won’t help the team because he will still be bad. 5 million is a lot for a player who can end up with a sub .300 wOBA.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
I could sit on the bench and have a good attitude for free
and I probably wouldn’t have worse than a .290 OBP.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Five million dollars for someone who puts up the bad Francoeur level stats is not a good thing. At all.
Alex Cora is getting extremely overpaid with $2 million, remember?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 16, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
He played reasonably well, and we're not angry that he put up reasonably effective numbers
what we are mad about is the fact that the front office, and much of the community at large doesnt notice that these numbers are aberrations. I have no problem saying Francoeur put up decent numbers this year, but all signs point to this not being the norm for him. If we give him 3-4 years and 5 million and he regresses to the guy they saw in Atlanta, then we’ve thrown 15-20 million out the window. This kind of money can go a long way towards signing draft picks (which we suck at) and signing free agents next year (where there is a treasure trove of pitching to be had) As for his heart and grit and what have you, he openly laughs at reasonable suggestions on how to improve his value, by drawing walks and improving plate discipline, which would give us a much more favorable opinion if he would just try to do this. I think we’d have a lot less against Frenchy if he didn’t laugh at the concept of on base percentage. Sure he goes out there and has fun, but he’s not doing whats best for the team. This isn’t to say that heart or guts don’t have a role because they allow certain players to play up to the level they do, but they don’t magically give them superpowers, its just the mentality they use to get the best results out of themselves. If those results are still bad, then they shouldnt be starting.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think as a 4th outfielder and the right price he's worth a 1 year deal type of chance
but i dont see signing him long term as our committed starter, because what he’s shown through most of his career is he can’t handle that role on a team. I don’t hate Francoeur, I just dont think he’s a starting outfielder caliber player. If he proves us wrong in limited play time, the sure, give him the job if we have no one better. The problem is right now we have the opportunity to put a better player out there than him, and while this is unfortunately for a guy who seems genuinely likeable, its ultimately about whats best for the team first and the player second.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
but he's been given a fair shot.
for several years, he’s been ATROCIOUS. And sure, he wouldn’t be a bad 7th or 8th hitter…but he’s a corner outfielder. That’s unacceptable. Just because you can afford to keep someone on your roster because he’s acceptable due to your surplus at other positions doesn’t mean you should A) refuse to take a look at better options, external or internal or B) sign him to an extension of any kind.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I think the problem most of us have with those intagibles
is that guys like Beltran, Reyes, and Wright are all looked as if they have none of it. It matters, but not nearly as much as actual talent.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
You have no idea who "gives a shit" and who doesn't
Don’t pretend to either. Just because a guy has a beard, smiles for the camera and is white doesn’t mean he “gives a shit” more than anyone else on the roster.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 16, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
hey I do all those things
wheres my contract?
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, I actually meet all 3 of those requirements as well
I bet I’m paler
by James Kannengieser on Nov 16, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I meet them too
Damn this site is filled with white bearded dudes who smile. creepy
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
i think with that sentence we've now been put on the
to catch a predator watch list
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
I was gonna say thats probably the description of NAMBLA members too
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Sure
But I’m curious to see your personal list of Mets who do and don’t give a shit.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 16, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
He's not blaming you
But the general perception of many Mets fans and media types, that have in turn influenced you.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
Apologies if you took it as me calling you specifically racist, that was not my intention. But it is my strong perception that if Jeffey wasn’t a smiling good ol’ boy and instead a dancing Dominican he wouldn’t be nearly as beloved by the fanbase. Easy on the language, also.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 16, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like to make general assumptions about the fan base
But if the AA community is always standing up for the minorities and criticizing whites (as is occasionally implied int some of these discussions), why do they want the Hispanic GM and black manager fired?
Cause they're bad at their jobs
by James Kannengieser on Nov 16, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But often it's not
I’ve had the argument about the Mets Latino players too often for me not to see it in many fans. Too many people see it as a culture that inherently doesn’t lead, that is selfish, and so on. People think a large part of the problem is the Latino population, that none of them are gamers and that nonesense. Seriously, can you think of one current Latin American baseball player who is considered to be a clutch gamer by the public? I can’t off the top of my head. Many are seen as great players, but they aren’t seen in that light for some reason. It is race thing, and it annoys the hell out of me.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Pujols is considered great
But I’ve never heard the leadership or gamer label put on him. Maybe I’m mistaken, but I haven’t heard it.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
eh the guy has been playing through elbow issues for a while
i’m pretty sure he gets the gamer label.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, true.
But does anyone who is actually good have that label? I guess there is Jeter, but he is overrated nonetheless.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
Johan gets those tags in droves, so does Pedro and the Hernandez (half) brothers
But its a little different for pitchers I guess.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 17, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Pedro yes, and the Hernandezes do too
But Johan I’m not so sure. He did at first, but I remember in 08 the FAN was calling him out for pitching an 8 inning gem and the the bullpen blowing it in the 9th. They were saying a real leader would have fought to stay in the game. Then of course two weeks later Reyes fought to stay in a game Manuel wanted to pull him out of and everyone called him out for being a baby.
There is a slight difference in pitcher though. They aren’t really perceived s gamers unless they throw a lot of complete games, or throw really hard. No one expects them to dive, run out every pitch and get their jersey dirty like a position player.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
I'm pretty sure Johan won them back
In that last start. And it seems like Gary and Keith never shut about about how gamerish he is.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 17, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
You know what
I don’t mind calling Johan a “gamer” after the last month of the 2008 season, especially the last week. That was impressive to pitch like that on a torn meniscus (or whatever he messed up in his knee).
by boom_roasted on Nov 17, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Gary and Keith are pretty good about that though
It’s the average FAN who don’t appreciate how awesome some of our guys really are.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Okay, here are a couple Position Players
1. Raul Ibanez. Yes, he was born in the continental US, but I’m pretty sure his heritage is Latin American, though not positive.
2. Yadier Molina. Born in Puerto Rico, Molina was subject to the draft. But all his throws behind runners, high batting average, and clutchitude from the 2006 postseason have earned him his due gamer tag I think.
3. Alex Cora – Also Puerto Rican, Cora is a simple case of the gamer tag used to describe a player who’s more brains than braun at this point, and to justify was was essentially $2 million wasted dollars.
If I can come up with a position player who was a NDFA and born outside of the US and Puerto Rico, I’ll let you know ;)
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 17, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I can't deny this is 100% untrue
as much as I would like it to be. But you can’t control what other people think, and I have learned (most of the time) not to try. It won’t accomplish anything except getting yourself pissed off.
Alex Cora?
I think the general assumption holds correct, but like most general assumptions, it tends to disappear the closer you examine it. For example: David Wright’s not considered a clutch gamer by the fanbase anymore, but Omir Santos is.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Bah, beat me to it!
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 17, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 17, 2009 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
because we're not commenting on how people judge their behavior
we’re commenting on how they suck at thier jobs something fierce. Theres nothing subjective about it.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Race is a huge part of this whether you want to believe it or not.
I’m not saying you specifically, but there was a comment on another site just today saying how refreshing it was to Francoeur over the selfish “Los Mets.” White players are percieved better in the public eye.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Dude
after all your posturing and defensive posts, lets get back to what JamesK asked of you which I believed was fair: name some people that you believe embody the grit factor and those intangibles and name some that do not.
"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-
That Omar guy
Sure knows how to build a team. In Omar We Trust.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 16, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
GM's get fired all the time
because they DON’T know better than the rest of us. Just because the guy’s got a job doesn’t mean he actually knows what he’s doing. And this is a general comment, not (necessarily) meant specifically to Omar & Jerry
I want to believe that
truly I do, but after listening to Steve Phillips on ESPN for years it’s hard to believe that EVERY gm even has basic logic skills.
I will say one thing though
we don’t know who “gives a shit” and who doesn’t, but Jerry Manuel and Omar Minaya should know. They are in the clubhouse, running the drills, etc. We have no problem with a football team cutting Larry Johnson b/c he’s an awful teammate, but when anecdotal evidence supports the fact that a player might not be a good teammate in baseball (cough Ramon Castro cough), we crucify the GM for selling low on that player.
Whether or not clubhouse chemistry is a real thing that effects a team on the field is debatable (I tend to think it does, at least a little), but just b/c we can’t tell who is a good teammate and who isn’t doesn’t mean that there aren’t good and/or bad teammates. The GM has much better info on that aspect of the organization than we do.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by the by
I don’t want the above to be seen as a defense of Omar. I still think putting together a good, talented team is the best way to nip chemistry problems in the bud. And I tend to think Omar’s pretty bad at putting together a full roster, so it’s certainly possible that the Castro trade (for one example) was just him not realizing the kind of player he had. But in some instances I think someone in that position should be given the benefit of the doubt.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
I think the question is
How many benefits of the doubts should we give him?
Also I think a problem is, problem isn’t the right word but w/e, that with so many former gms/managers becoming coaches and people becoming privy to what seems like their thought processes it’s hard to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I mean if Dusty Baker can’t seem to follow a simple concept like overworking young pitchers is stupid or playing Corey Patterson over cheaper younger players with high upside is stupid and gms continue to give him jobs can we really believe anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt?
That first sentence is entirely correct.
You can’t trust that everything someone does is for a good reason. What, we should trust that Omar made the Franoeur trade because he could inherently tell that Jeffy would make a comeback and that Church couldn’t handle the (mostly fabricated) pressures of New York?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
as opposed to who?
So what, now you’re saying that Francoeur cares more about baseball than everyone else on the team? Let me bring up a little quote for you: “I would actually give up my baseball talent to be a country music singer and most people don’t know that.”
-Jeff Francoeur.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
we should offer him a record deal!!!!!
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
what baseball talent?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 17, 2009 6:41 AM EST up reply actions
what baseball talent?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 17, 2009 6:43 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously.
It’s not that anyone thinks they don’t exist. It’s just that 99.9% of the time, any “extra” hustle is going to be seen…IN THE STATS.
And as for guys who play well in big spots, I’ll borrow a thought from the incomprable Ted Berg. If you had this ability, good lord, why wouldn’t you do it all the time?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
The other thing I'll say is
that we have no idea about the intangibles a player has. We have no idea who is the leader in the clubhouse, who inspires the other players or whatever, so we have no right to comment on it.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
for all we know, Brian Stokes is the emotional leader of the team.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
We can only hope
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 16, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
One thing I know
Brian Stokes was one of the nicest guys on the entire team and chatted with me for a while and joked around while signing autographs. If we’re starting a team we sign guys like him because he’s at least good with the fans.
"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-
I don't mean that we should start a team with him
But I can say from personal knowledge Stokes is cool. That doesn’t mean I sign him for my team though. :)
"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-
No problem with that
Everybody has cult favorites. As long as it’s in proportion. I was being somewhat sarcastic
I'm one of the first to dismiss
intangibles. I guess I meant to say look I’m had a personal interaction with a Met but its not about the guy being cool but if he can perform.
"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-
Yea, we don't know about players intangibles, but management does. Other players, managers, etc. do.
And this may rile some of you, so don’t take it the wrong way. IN A WAY: isn’t a guy’s personality and attitude more tangible than any stat? Players, talent-wise, have careened one year to the next, but a guy is not just gunna become a selfish asshole overnight. So when we’re talking about BENCH GUYS, I think intangibles matter if I’m trying to build a cohesive unit. Again, I WOULDN’T TRADE BELTRAN FOR VICTORINO. I’m just saying: MAYBE ALEX CORA IS GOOD IN THE CLUBHOUSE AND THE PLAYERS LOVE HIM! We wouldn’t know.
We kill Omar for giving Cora $2M.
But what if a lot of the players and coaches when up to Omar and said “Look, this guy builds moral, we love him, it behooves the team for him to be around.” We wouldn’t know.
But one of the most successful managers in the game, Theo Epstein, has pretty much shot this down.
by boom_roasted on Nov 16, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
I love when people point to that quote
and ignore the next 4 sentences:
“We build a team, try to get 25 high character guys. The bottom line is this team had a great personality. It was just calm outwardly, on the field, very professional. Behind closed doors they had a ton of fun. There were a lot of leaders.”
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 17, 2009 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Okay.
But if you read the entire quote, it is clear that he is saying you can’t build a team based on personality and “psychobabble.”
“There’s a human phenomenon where you want to sort of attribute personal characteristics to groups and say that they have this personality or they lack this characteristic. The reality is we can’t build a team based on, sort of, psychobabble.”
by boom_roasted on Nov 17, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
I think he's talking about "clutchness" and "grittiness" though
which I agree with completely.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Bench guys jobs aren't to cheerlead though
they’re to fill in under specific circumstances. Their performance is no less important than any other player when they’re on the field. A run given up by a bench player is the same as a run given up by a starter. If a team has to resort to bench players to motivate their players, then their coaching staff is terrible. Its the coaching staffs job to get the most out of their players, if teams just wanted fun guys who couldn’t play baseball well in the clubhouse, they’d hire comedians to keep the mood light. Its not the job of the bench players to keep the team motivated.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but what I'm saying is if the guys love having the guy around, and Cora is not THAT much worse than your average joe schmo utility infielder, why not bring him back?
It wouldn’t make sense to hear that, then for Omar to be like “screw you guys” and let Cora walk. If the team felt strong enough, he’d keep him, which may have happened. Hell, I don’t know. But none of us do.
So you'd rather pay several million dollars to a guy below replacement level
over a decent backup for near league minimum because Cora has a good attitude?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
the problem is he was a fair bit worse than other backup infielders
an OPS of .637 and negative UZR at every position he played last year doesn’t really scream valid replacement to me.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 16, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Wow there was some beef on here tonight
Metzfan22 seems like a good dude though, maybe I can help him a bit. His original point was that there are intangibles that statistics don’t account for. He is right because baseball doesn’t behave like a algorythm (I love percussion). Maybe it does and that with the right equation every play in every baseball game should be able to be simulated by a computer. The statisticians just don’t have all the correct variables yet. We could make some long as equation that predicts how every single variable that we could imagine and predict the result, but we haven’t got that equation yet. Also, that would be a big kick in the balls for free will but thats a different class.
i tried to keep my arguments civil
ultimately the equation is runs one player is worth compared to another. Cora is worth fewer than another guy who would command the same money. Thats the entirety of my analysis. I wish someone could explain to me what they mean by intangibles, because usually it just amounts to a player putting forth what appears to be superior effort to make a play. I won’t argue that luck isn’t a factor in baseball, because it clearly is, but i think people somehow think wanting it more changes the flow of random chance in the game (and while there is some crazy far-fetched research that suggests this could be true we’re not going to get into that). Ultimately the only thing you can do is play to your best level, and its either good enough or it isnt though. Sad but true. I’d love to think my lifelong desire to be a baseball player could overcome my lack of skill at it, but its not likely to happen, as i’m quite awful.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 17, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah Keith your right
that was quite a cogent point.
I bet your name isn’t really Keith though. And I bet you don’t really adorn the upper lip of the second best baseball announcer of all time.
I'm not a sabermetrics person
That said, you can’t take into account the “intangibles”, things that are inherently unquantifiable, and then attempt to quantify them (X has more heart than Y). I can easily make up some BS about how, in the air we breathe, asides for oxygen, nitrogen, argon, carbon dioxide and the random other little things, there are little particles called ‘Zerons’, that can’t be measured, and create a hypothesis that states that the amount of Zerons a person breathes in has an effect on their weight. Because the amount of Zerons cannot be measured, my claims can’t be verified, and as such, are dubious and have no way to be proven valid. Things like “he has heart”, “he plays the game the right way”, “he is a leader”, “he is a gamer”, “he has grission” cannot be quantified in any way (other than their actual game stats), and as such, any claims that such things somehow improve their own performance, or that of the teams, are dubious.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 17, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Other places it is random
in Flushing, it is chaos
by StorkFan on Nov 17, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, you can't spell 'Random' without 'Omar'...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 17, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
At least Zerons are caffeine free
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 17, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
I want lobby Zerons as the new stat to measure grission and other intangibles.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 17, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
That wouldn't be fair to the guys who are so grissiony that they cut their faces to that they can't grow beards.
That’s a Mongol tradition (I believe), and while there aren’t any Mongol baseball players, grission is part of their DNA.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 17, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
Why are we wating money on a latin american scouting division
We need to get them over to Mongolia, anther example of poor mets front office
I'm calling bullshit
that comment had to be made by someone from this site just being satirical, right? Please? Nobody is that stupid.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Yeah definitely somebody here
The tell: Morons that make comments like that on those websites don’t use quotes or proper grammar. If the commenter actually believed in “playing the game the right way,” it wouldn’t be put in quotes.
by boom_roasted on Nov 17, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Whoever made that irrational comment
Should be hung, drawn, quartered, and castrated in public.
Beer is good! And stuff!
Gah, this is why I can't bring myself to read NJ.com anymore.
The commentors are just STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.
Did I mention I love all you guys? No? Time to mention it now.
Beer is good! And stuff!
Of course intangibles mean something
We don’t know how much. And because of that anyone can decide to consider it minor, or to make it as big as a house. Unfortunately (or not), the last time I checked, the object in baseball is to score more runs thatn the guys in the other jerseys — not (necessarily) to have more grission.
the mets i watch don't have tangibles or intangibles
i don’t see what all the fuss is about.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya


























