Marty Noble: Glavine Claims Young Mets Weren't Offended By Losing
From Marty Noble's profile of Wally Backman:
And it's what Tom Glavine saw as far back as June 2007 -- losing was acceptable to some of the young players, they weren't suitably offended by it.
Let's take a trip down nightmare lane, to Sept. 30, 2007 and Mr. Glavine's postgame comments following 1/3 IP, 5 H, 7 ER:
"I'm not devastated, but I am disappointed," Glavine said. "Devastated is a word used for greater things in life than a game."
Contrast Glavine's "whatever" reaction with Carlos Beltran, David Wright and Jose Reyes's responses to losing game 162 on Sept. 28, 2008:
Beltran sunk his head into Martinez's shoulder, tears welling in his eyes.
"It's something that burns. It's a bad feeling," said third baseman David Wright.
Jose Reyes sat at his locker with his head in his hands. [He] was sitting on his chair in front of his locker when a few people came over and consoled him. He then exhaled a few times and put his head back in his hands before finally going into the back of the trainer's room.
Tell me again who wasn't offended by losing?
9 months ago
James Kannengieser
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My thoughts as well
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
i will be devastated
if Glavine doesn’t go down in history as one of the Mets most reviled players. He’s a toothless mercenary schmuck.
(i don’t remember Beltran cuddling with Pedro)
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
yes he is pretty much the biggest jagov of in met history
and thats a lot considering the likes of carl everett, bobby bonilla and paul loduca (among others i missed for sure) were all mets once.
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
oh yeah, he was a real zilch
lenny dysktra had career as a met but he may now be the biggest waste of life post MLB.
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
meant to say dyskstra had a nice career as a met
i type suck today
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
remember this too
it wasn’t simply his last start in 07 that was horrific. His entire September was awful.
0-5 with an ERA well into the stratosphere. He pitches even slightly below average in 2 of those starts and the 2007 collapse never happens. And yet people want to blame Reyes, Wright et al. Tom Glavine is the biggest choker in the history of the New York Mets.
Try after his 300th win he was awful
Its like he did not have the drive or grit or passion to play well. I can’t descibe it. It’s like he just gave up.
Or he just sucked that last year and he was lucky to get his 300th win because that team was good. It’s one or the other
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
Wagner is another phony
see 2006 NLCS where he was the goat. and then he spit the bit down the stretch in 07 and got hurt in 08. It was the Mets transplanted vets, not their homegrown young players that let them down.
you know I don't buy into that nonsense JoshNY
but I don’t see why players who activily contributed to the Mets collapse should somehow be lauded or given expert status for having the right “attitude” about it.
nah I was just joking
it just caught my eye because you used “grit” and “passion” back-to-back like that
I think I just died a little inside.
QUOTE: “So the Mets were delighted when Jeff Francoeur became available and when Daniel Murphy wore his grit on his sleeve…”
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
Translation: He wiped his nose on this sleeve
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
God I hate Glavine
The guy has always been a loser and I was never more embarassed to be a Mets fan than when Jeff Wilpon threw him that lame 300 wins celebration, despite the fact about 4 of those wins came as a Met.
What a loser.
Everything about that story drives me crazy. The love of Backman, the idiotic Francoeur/Murphy line, seeing Glavine’s name in print.
I love Glavine now
since Glavine going back to Atlanta got us Ike Davis and Brad Holt.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
that doesn't change the fact that
he’s a no good twat. All he needed to do was pitch within himself and he pooped the bed.
President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club
by Hoyadestroya85 on Nov 18, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
and didn't feel bad about it.
President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club
by Hoyadestroya85 on Nov 18, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Great line
After that Marlins game in 2007, my friend dropped this classic one on me:
“As consolation, Mets fans should be allowed to sleep with Glavine’s wife while he watches in exchange for a $20 donation to the 9/11 widow’s/children’s fund.”
He may have been joking, but I appreciate the sentiments more than ever now.
So, I guess I'm the only person here who does like Glavine?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 12:43 PM EST reply actions
I still do, though. Should I get checked out, or something?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I had made a comment
but apparently STD jokes are so 2008. Yes, it is possible that you are insane based upon your assessment of Tom Glavine.
Whatevs. I don't think I've ever used that phrase before
Overall, people see him in the context of that one game (and maybe his first start). Overall, he was a good pitcher while he was with us. Theoretically, we might not have made it into the postseason, or so far into it, in 2006, without Glavine.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
The problem is that he may have helped build a bridge...
…but he was caught setting fire to it with matches and gasoline.
He didn't though. That's people overreacting.
It’s not like he said the Mets are a joke of an organization with fans who are idiots. That’s how Ordonez left off with us, and he’s still fondly remembered.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Most people wax poetic about Ordonez in the field.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
Saying that someone with a few gold gloves was amazing in the field isn't the same thing as
fondly remembering him
I fondly remember Rey-O
God he sucked at the plate, but it was so awesome when he hit his one home run per year.
I saw 2 of them live!
‘98 and the Grand Slam in ’99. What are the chances that a non-season ticket holder would witness two of Ordonez’s first 4 career homers in back-to-back seasons.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
I rest my case
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 23, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
I also like glavine
the collapse was far from a one man job, a lot of players did their part. He’s just symbolic of it because he was the final nail in the coffin.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
I always remember the first PA of that game
Hanley Ramirez taking that half-swing at that inside pitch and the umps completely blowing the call. It was something like, it either hit him, the bat, or didn’t hit either and he swung, and they somehow ruled it a ball rather than a HBP, foul ball, or strike. I don’t remember the exact circumstances, just that “ball” was the one ruling that seemed excluded from the set of viable calls the ump could make, and there was a big fuss about it, and he wound up drawing a walk, and well, the rest is history.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 18, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
i want to say it was a foul that glanced off the handle end of the bat
but my memory is a bit fuzzy on it at this point. I’ve tried to block that game from memory to the best of my ability.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
In the book John Feinstein wrote about Glavine and what-his-name that season
When Glavine is talking about that game, he says something like, “I was out there on the mound and noticed that all the Marlins were up on the top step, in the first inning, and I thought, wow, they’re really up for this game, they’re not just going to roll over.”
This is, for me, a way worse indictment of him than the defensiveness that resulted in the “devastated” quote (though I do love to mock that quote). Who else in that stadium would have said such a thing? Jesus. I get incensed every time I think about it.
that simply isn't true Keith
when you are the number #2 starter on a team in the pennant race and you blow five games down the stretch in which your team actually had a lead in four out of the five(including one game against Florida where they came back twice) you are the primary culprit by far. Others had a role but Glavine was front and center every time he took the mound. There isn’t anybody else who is as close to being as culpable except maybe Willie Randolph.
Glavine in his last 6 starts of that fateful season.
IP Earned runs walks k’s
6 1 3 2
7 1 0 4
7.2 2 2 1
5 4 1 3
5 6 3 4
.1 7 2 0
his last two were undoubtedly putrid starts, he left the earlier 5 inning game down only 1 run though, and the other numbers are all the kinds of starts we could have only dreamed of this past year. I’ll admit his last 2 starts were putrid, but out of all the games in September, he only had 2 that he put the Mets out of reach of the game. Blame him if you will, but i’ll bet if we go digging we find a few pitchers that did far worse in the month of September.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don't defend his comments
but we’ve blown how bad his pitching was in September a bit out of proportion
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly, it's his attitude not his performance that is unforgivable
If we’re going to pick on a disappointing veteran, we should be angry with Pedro. We aren’t though because Pedro was visibly engaged with the mood of the clubhouse. When the team lost, he appeared distraught rather than defensive.
And while that doesn’t make a difference in terms of winning or losing games, it makes a difference to the fans.
by TheBigStapler on Nov 18, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
why Pedro?
he pitched pretty well in September that year
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
pedro had a great september
he’s the most blameless of the bunch.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
If only he'd been around for any of 2007 before September...Ho hum...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Can't really blame the guy for the fact that he was hurt
I mean, that’s basically how the Mets were able to sign him, is by being willing to go four years when everyone knew his arm was going to fall off in a year or two, right?
Wasn't blaming him. Just saying, if he was able to get back, say, a week early, and notched one more win...
What could have been…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
we would've lost first round to the Rockies
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 18, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
In late 2007, it was fashionable to be swept by the Rockies. I'd prefer that to what actually happened.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
That was confusing of me
I was speaking in terms of expectations over the whole year (1.2 WAR, $14 salary) and total contracts.
by TheBigStapler on Nov 18, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
He got hurt
can’t blame him
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
I was about to post a long explanation
but I don’t think I want to argue against Pedro Martinez ever. He was my favorite Met until Beltran cemented himself as king in my heart. Even though he was a disappointment at times, he was still a champ in my book.
by TheBigStapler on Nov 18, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Good points
And frankly, it is all blown out of proportion. Glavine didn’t pitch that abdly, especially considering he really didn’t have that much left.
As for his comment he wasn’t devastated, contrasted with Beltran crying or Reyes being upset the next year, I think you have to consider the context. Glavine is a Hall of Famer. He’s disappointed he lost game 162 but not devastated. That’s an honest reaction. It doesn’t mean he loves losing. But he is even keeled and realistic about the vast scheme of things.
The next year, Wright says it burns, etc. Naturally it does. No one thinks that at the end of a second season losing a lead down the stretch that these guys don’t feel badly.
But Glavine’s comments may be more directed towards the entire season. Perhaps the players weren’t as worried about came number 62 as they were about game 162. It would indeed be shocking to me if players didn’t feel awful about losing on the last day or 2 of the season 2 years in a row. They know their own reputation as players, like it or not, is in the line. I’d also be shocked if Glavine had said “I am devastated, this is worse than anything else imaginable,” when he got pummeled by the Marlins.
Not that I give all that much credence to Glavine suggesting it waw a lack of caring about losing that did in the Mets. Although I do think early in 2007 and 2008 the Mets gave off a distinct unconcerned attitude. Likely not as important as having lousy relievers left in late 2008 or just a lack of decent players at certain positions in 2007. It’s just an opinion voiced by a veteran player. Doesn’t make him the biggest ass to ever play for the Mets by a long shot.
didn't pitch that badly?
That last game? Yeah, he pitched pretty terribly. That’s what the problem is. If he had just been bad, and the Mets lost, I could understand that sort of reaction. But, right or wrong, that game was the one that we HAD to win. And the loss was almost 100% his fault. Again, it’s true that game 62 matters as much as 162, but imagine how we would expect Ollie to react after a regular season game in which he lasted a third of an inning and sucked that badly? Now imagine it in the last game of the season, with playoffs on the line. This is one sort of thing in which people are right to say that you have to watch the games to understand.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
yeah awful the last game
but he wasn’t awful prior to that. I think everyone knows he was awful on the last day. I think we have to accept the fact that some times guys try very hard and fail anyway, and sometimes they don’t bust their ass and still succeed. Process over results, right?
Over the whole year, Glavine was worth 1.3 WAR
While he was being paid to be just slightly better than that ($7.5M). So, on one hand, the expectation was that he would have a little stronger results. On the other hand, you have a player that did more good than harm for his team’s chances of making the playoffs.
His spectacularly awful finish makes the year seem especially bad. But let’s be fair. Lots of players were culpable in that final month. Jose Reyes, just as an example, was .205/.279/.333 during September.
by TheBigStapler on Nov 18, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
yup, heres some more for you, our favorite pitcher oliver perez last 6 starts
IP ER® BB K
3.2 6(6) 2 4
5 3(5) 5 2
7 2 2 7
4.2 2(5) 6 6
8 2(1) 0 8
3.2 6(6) 2 4
He pitched 2 gems and 4 terrible games while taxing the bullpen severely (he wasn’t helped by the defense on a few of these also, but thats another point altogether). So we kill glavine for having 4 decent to good starts in september out of 6, but ignore that ollie in his best year, had 2 good starts and 4 awful ones.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
that should be ER then total runs in parenthesis
I have not registered ER as a trademark
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Now might be a good time to, then. It's used plenty.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
But Ollie isn't running his mouth off
In fact I think he’s been relatively humble about his suckitude, generally
I think that can also be attributed to the fact that he doesn't speak much English.
I remember listening to a Mike and the Mad Dog broadcast where they had Perez on…It wasn’t very pretty.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
does a loss by a back of the rotation pitcher count for less than one by tom glavine?
Plus, Glavine posted a higher FIP for the year than Ollie did. Shouldn’t we have expected Ollie to have pitched better than Glavine in that final month based on the numbers? I’m not suggesting anyone here though Ollie was an ace, but he had had a good season to that point, and then broke down far worse for a month than Glavine did. One win anywhere would have put us in the postseason that year. Is the guy that didn’t keep us in it 2 games out of his last 6 really more guilty than the guy who didn’t keep us in the game 4 out of his final 6?
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
No, the losses (to the extent that they're attributable to the pitcher) count the same
But… I mean, let’s say the Mets threw me out there for six starts the last month of the season. I would be terrible (I think it’s safe to assume) but how much blame would you really place on me, for pitching poorly but in line with what should be expected of me, rather than on the Mets, for using someone obviously unqualified to start important games down the stretch?
Well, I mean, Ollie is the same, only a less extreme case. He pitched poorly, but he sucks and we expect him to pitch poorly (though his better FIP than Glavine that season is a fair counterpoint). Glavine is a future Hall of Famer (who, in the article that started this whole discussion, was quoted as saying some of the other players weren’t bothered enough by losing) who shit the bed. I think it’s reasonable to hold the two to different standards, as is being done here.
The future hall of famer arguement is silly
if you take most future hall of famers towards the end of their career you have to expect you won’t get the same numbers that got you into the hall of fame consideration category. Glavine was on the wrong side of 40 when he had these 2-3 bad starts. If the mets threw you out there, you’re right, it wouldnt be your fault, it would be the managements fault. I know if I see a 40+ year old pitcher struggle badly in the two previous starts, and its a do or die situation, maybe I look to someone else.
And I still partially agree with Glavine that a lot of players didn’t take losing seriously until the division suddenly got tight again, and at that point everyone they played smelled blood. Of course it hurt at the end when they missed playoffs, but they were pretty nonchalant for a lot of the losses early in the collapse.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh c'mon
Who else could we have possibly turned to on that final Sunday? The guy was our “ace” and he was paid like one, you couldn’t have possibly started someone like Humber in that kind of game.
As for the whole non-chalant thing, I disagree. We had no idea what was going through their minds the last 20 days of the season, and we can’t just assume they didn’t care.
The one guy who was clearly nonchalant on the team was sweet old Willie, and his complete lack of awareness hurt the team
You know who wasn't nonchalant?
That choking choker David Wright (whose baseball-reference player page is sponsored by AmazinAvenue, I just noticed), who raked to the tune of a 1.034 OPS in September 2007.
Should of won MVP. Holliday, if not Wright.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
agreed
I always bait my Phillies fan friends with that. I’ll say something like “Ryan Howard didn’t deserve that MVP in 2006 b/c he didn’t even make the playoffs,” and then they’ll say “yea, but he was the best player in the league, he doesn’t have to be on a playoff team.” Then I’ll respond, “oh, thanks for agreeing with me that Jimmy Rollins robbed David Wright for the ’07 MVP” – and then they usually just stammer a bit
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
agreed on willie, 100%
but (and I know this is only conjecture), as the head of the team, his attitude was likely reflected in at least some of the players, and more importantly how the game was managed, and it often, at least to me, seemed this was the case. I agree there’s probably nobody else we could have turned to after glavine, although Pedro could have been an option given he would have only been one day short rest, and had pitched well all month. I agree that nobody would have ever made the call because glavine was our “ace” at the time though.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
Syler, I thought a bit more about this point
Your arguement is that we weren’t in the clubhouse so we can’t comment as to how nonchalant they were about the losses, but we’ve been jumping down Glavine (And to a lesser extent Wagners) throats about making these comments. These guys WERE in the clubhouse, and maybe there is some merit to what they said. Surely the whole team was upset with the end result, but maybe Glavine is right and they were too quick to laugh off some of their late season losses. Just thought it was kind of funny we’re arguing that nobody was in the clubhouse to know what they were thinking, but we discount what people inside the clubhouse said as them being jerks.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that Glavine is a hypocrite
And there is a big difference between not caring about losing and not reacting strongly to it.
And yet when Glavine spoke at the end of the season
and didn’t react as if it was the end of the world, we jump on him for not caring enough? Its not like he didn’t say he was disappointed, we jump on him for saying he wasn’t devastated, because the way he defines devistated he reserves for the highest levels of tragedy. While this season ending was horrible, I can’t fault the guy for keeping things in perspective by saying that while it sucked, there are worse things in life that can happen. Its not like he didn’t care though.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 19, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. "Devastation
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly. "Devastation" is a relative term.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yup
Especially for pointing out that of course players hurt after losing the last game. This is not the same as being “professional” for game 45, or whatever. That’s what Glavine was talking about, whether that’s right or wrong or the actual problem is a different issue, but I think people are missing the point comparing players reaction to game 162 and saying, see, so and so give’s a shit and Glavine doesn’t, or saying Wright hit well in September and Glavine sucked in game 162, so Wright cares and Glavine does not (and I want to emphasize that I don’t think Wright slacks off early in the season either, just that pointing to his awesome September in 2007 or overall stats line isn’t the issue).
thats fine and i'm OK with people being angry for glavines statements
but people saying he went 0-5 in september or sucked the whole month are ridiculous. Lets face the fact that a lot of players contributed to our downfall, and glavine was just one of them
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
well sort of
I may have overstated somewhat based on the numbers you pulled up. And I never said Glavine was the sole culprit. But you are giving him too much of a pass I think.
He was awful in the last three games. His third to last start was on September 20th against the Marlins. I remember that game very well and think it was the turning point of the whole season. He gave up 11 hits in 5 innings and had no command, not good. That is the game where the Mets came back to take the lead, when Marlon Anderson (remember when we liked him) hit a three run triple in the ninth to put the Mets up 7-4. Marlins scored 3 in the bottom of the ninth and one in the 10th to win it 8-7. Mets never recovered. He was also awful at the end of August in a start against the Padres which the Mets lost. So that is 4 bad starts instead of five or six like I said earlier.
The real point is he shouldn’t be making comments and Marty Noble should not be holding him up as some kind of role model.
my complaint is that everybody blames glavine for our missing the playoffs that year
I really do think the 2007 team got lazy and tried to back into the playoffs and by the time they realized what was happening it was too late. There was no sense of urgency. I think the final loss bothered everyone on the team but what glavine and wags were saying was that until the losses actually had a direct impact on their standing in the division they really did seem to just shrug them off and forget about them.
Granted, Glavine sucked in a few of those starts, but Ollie sucked in a bunch as did Maine, we started Humber and Lawrence for lopsided losses that month if i remember correctly, the bullpen got knocked around in a bunch of games we should have won. Hell lets blame Guillermo Mota and Jorge Sosa before we blame glavine, i think they probably directly contributed to more losses in september than Tommy did.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
you are right about Mota and Sosa and Humber
that was the fault of the manager.
Lol, Jorge Sosa...
Ah, good memories, good memories…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he went like 8-0 before then going like 0-8
Or something to that effect. Whatever. It’s only Jorge Sosa- he’s not worth looking up. Heh…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
You're defending performance, though
When the reason everyone hates him is his apparent attitude towards his performance, now exacerbated by his criticism of what he perceived to be the attitude of the “young players”. Fuck you, Tommy.
thats fine, say he's an asshole, say he's got a big mouth
thats all accurate , i just hate that many people says he’s the main reason we missed the playoffs. Don’t give up your hatred, just make sure its for the right reason.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
i still like him
he seemed like a nice guy
too many mets fans hold grudges… it makes us look bad as a group
"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner
no but it seems like a lot of mets fans, especially most of the people here, have a shit list a mile long
-Victorino
-Hamels
-Jeter
-Glavine
-Wagner
-Noble
-Francoeur
-Ibanez
And so on…
"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner
Well i think you're mixing up players
People don’t like Frenchy cause he’s plain bad. They didn’t want Ibanez because we were going to overpay, I can’t imagine anyone has him or Hamels on the same list as a Victorino/Noble. Noble writes articles like this.
Jeter is just evil.
i don't hate glavine, hamels, jeter, wagner, or ibanez
i make fun of the lot of them from time to time but there is only a handful of players i despise.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
I loathe Jeter
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
yeah I hate jeter too
but its besides the point
"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner
I don't like Jeter because of the morons who think he is some sort of clutch demi-god
But, he is a great player and his lady-friend resume is impressive.
The other guys I hate the other guys because they are all, for the most part, complete douchebags.
by boom_roasted on Nov 18, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
That's mainly why I hate him too
but I thinks he’s a pretty big douchebag in his own right
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
I don't think
it can be anything other than anger at other people for thinking he is a great.
Jeter is so hated by a segment of the baseball world for being overrated that they underrate him. He seems like an ok guy, but I’d respect him more if he said ok, I’ll move off ss for the good of the team (although he can point to his 6.6 UZR this year and say not time yet). And frankly, I don’t like his smirk, but I don’t judge him off that.
And I never have found out why, say, jayson Werth is considered a douchelord here. Or Victorino. Maybe they are. I may have missed some articles about things they have said or done. Brett Myers, sure, wife-beating douchebag. The other guys I assume part of that is fan-based. And then wanting to take the worst out of any comment they ever make.
I don't really have any issue with Werth
but Victorino cemented his place in the douchelord hall of fame for us when he ran out of his way to give Jose Reyes an elbow to the ribcage on a play at second. It was unnecessary, classless, and dangerous for Reyes. I do give Victorino credit though, for being the only player to ever get thrown out for arguing balls and strikes from center field. An impressive feat. Basically you have a loudmouthed philly player who plays dirty, thats gonna make you cannon fodder for mets fans.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 23, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
fair enough
I never saw that play. I am glad to get some color on this because I always just heard repeated comments that Victorino was a douche but I was never given concrete examples.
yup its actually not blind irrational hatred
its blind rational hatred. there’s some method to our madness.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 23, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
He's first ballot hall of famer
who happens to be tremendously overrated. That’s my opinion of Derek Jeter.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
like I said
He is overrated by some and underrated by others who hate him for being overrated. I’m not a Yankee fan, and I know his fielding doesn’t deserve gold gloves, but frankly I get sick of reading the jeter negitivosity. Folks act like he is Adam Dunn playing ss. He actually put up a good UZR this year, 5th in the AL. Not bad for a 35 year old or however old he is (although Vizquel is older and still better).
And he isn’t all that ovverrated even by MVP voters, a lot of whom we know are old-timers:
2003 MVP rank 21, WAR rank among AL batters 19.
2004 13/13
2005 10/11
2006 2/2
2007 11/17
2008 (didn’t make MVP list)
2009 3/3
Now, this excludes pitchers, but they get excluded by a lot of voters anyway.
He is sometimes placed higher than he deserves (2007), usually right about where he deserves to be, maybe because voters over emphasize RBI anyway.
Mainly, he is a fairly consistent, good player at a premium position on a generally winning team. Yeah, he isn’t a great fielder. He’s not a slugger and he doesn’t walk a ton year after year. But he’s a damn good hitter for a ss. He posted a not so awful uzr last year and a good one this year, and that may not mean much giving the sample sizes, but maybe he took some of the criticism to heart and worked on his fielding. Regardless, he simply wasn’t that bad a fielder this year. Not gold glove worthy but he was close.
And a lot of sportwriters and the callers to FAN or what have you go overboard. It grates on folks who know more and especially on Mets fans, i know. But i think he is better than a lot of the “he’s overrated” crowd acknowledge. And then you get “yeah, he’s afirst ballot hall of famer but he is overrated” argument. There are not that many first ballot hall of famers in the history of the game.
How's your Jose Reyes grudge going?
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Beat me to it
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Metsguy for Mex_17's back-up ombudsman?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 18, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Heh...
Jesus Christ, someone needs to break up the sycophants and mutual admiration society on here. Otherwise it’s 1000 straight posts congratulating each other about how much smarter you all than everyone else who watches baseball, and never-gets-old “grission” jokes, and insults like, “Oh yeah? Well YOU think RBIs are a valid stat!” ZING!
If Metsguy wants to be ombudsman, or Martin Luther to AA’s Church of UZR, more power to him. Godspeed, dude.
Back on topic, great job digging out those quotes from Glavine after his last horrible start. I don’t hate Glavine for that single flameout, but his hypocrisy in those quotes was hilarious to read.
Would a church of UZR have weekly meetings?
I can’t take myself away from my weekly self-flagellation in the name of Bill James.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
i pretty much AT LEAST dislike every other player in the majors not on the mets
and actively hate most of them. i dunno, sports is just more fun for me that way. its easier to find teams to root against then it is to make up some reason to cheer for a team (“oh like that guy, he plays the game right”) more like, man screw that team, i have a friend that roots for them and i dont want to hear his crap if they win. I HOPE THAT WHOLE TEAM DIES.
also remember i dont actually give a crap about any of this, its all entertainment.
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
My two most miserable experiences at Shea Stadium:
1) Tom Glavine’s first start as a Met, Opening Day 2003.
2) Tom Glavine’s last startabortion as a Met, Game 162, 2007.
I’ve been to a lot of games, both good and bad, but none come as close as those two. All the excitement, and Glavine crapped the bed both times. Game 162 was a lot worse for a lot of obvious reasons, but the opening day game was and remains the only opening day game I’ve ever gone too, so that was awful too.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Almost as bad as the 07 performance...
was the lecture afterwards. Yes, Tom we expect this to be as devastating to you as a parent’s death or as serious as a national tragedy. Thank you for enlightening us by putting baseball in the proper context.
by Bieser's Balk on Nov 18, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i was at game 162 in 2007, too
is there a support group?
by letsgocyclones on Nov 18, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, fuck THAT guy.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 18, 2009 12:50 PM EST reply actions
No no james, you're missing some context here methinks
Beltran had just been described a new cutting edge mole removal treatment, unfortunately it never panned out.
Wright’s quote was directly followed with “do you think I should see a doctor?”
Reyes was playing around with some new handshake moves that he thought might appeal to the Emo crowd.
What, you thought they were reacting to the loss? Nahh, why would they do that when they have a tenured, example-setting vet like Glavine around to show them how handle things?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 18, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Haha, terrific
Especially the Wright one
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
How about fuck Marty Noble too.
We have enough of the grit shit from blogs. Shut up, Noble.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Tom Glavine can go fuck himself
I was at Game 162, you didn’t even try in that game you fucking pussy, and then after your speech which showed you didn’t give a shit about the Mets, you have the audacity to say other people didn’t care? Fuck you you worthless piece of garbage.
I've always been relatively indifferent to Tom
Now he can suck… my balls
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Nov 18, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The rest of the team really didn't try in that game, either
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
And the three previous games (where Glavine didn't pitch), where we lost
9 – 6 against the Nats
3 – 0 against the Cards
7 – 4 against the Marlins?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 18, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
I never said it was just Glavine
The entire team was piss-poor in September, especially the final week.
But, he single handedly ended our season in that one inning. We had absolutely no chance of coming back after an inning like that. He killed all the hope that had filled the stadium minutes before he started the game
I phrased that last statement wrong
There was so much hope in the stadium on that day, and he singhandedly killed it in the span of 10 minutes.
we never should have had to depend on that final game to begin with
it was a pathetic two week stretch
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I was at the previous game, when Maine pitched.
Trust me, the atmosphere was pretty dynamic. If Glavine had done better in that one inning, I believe we would have won.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Very, very dynamic
I had no doubt they were winning tomorrow after I walked out of Shea after Maine’s performance.
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
I was at Game 162
and the pre-game atmosphere was the same as it had been at Game 162 in ’99 (which I was also at, the game we won against the Pirates on a walk-off wild pitch). Everyone there expected the Mets to win after the 1-hitter. I think the feeling was that the Mets were like the Cardinals the previous year – they had to be scared straight, but now they had pulled out of it and were gonna win it all. Then Glavine started pitching…
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
i was actually at that maine game
i can’t decide if its the best or the worst game i’ve ever been to… maine was my favorite player then, and it was frustrating seeing him get that close to a no-hitter and then blow it…
"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner
Fucking Paul Hoover...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
There's a difference between not trying and not performing well
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
I was replying to Brooklyn Dodger.
But I guess it applies to yours as well.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
I hate to be one of those e-snobs
But me and a friend were discussing, in reference to an article written about Bellichecks 4th down call, how much ridiculous sports writing has become. We both wanted to be sports writer when we were younger and now think it’s a joke. I don’t know what’s worst that these guys get paid to say such ridiculous things, or that likely millions of readers actually listen to it and buy what they say.
So you are saying.....
much ado about nothing huh?
I can’t disagree with that.
by Coolpapabell on Nov 18, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
The Mart Noble article
and the up roar that has followed. Noble clearly needs to fill content on a the Mets.com. So he picks an asinine angle to underscore Backman’s selection.
The fourth down call too I guess. The Pats are still going to win the division, and will likely have to see the Colts again. It has workout for Bellicheck in the past. He gambled and lost. At least some football pundits have pointed that out. If he makes it he is a genius. It failed and he is a goat. That is how our society works. I would not have risked it, but whatever.
I remember a few years ago, when gave up a safety so he could get better field position. It worked, and he was lauded as genius.
by Coolpapabell on Nov 18, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah on the noble article
Noble writes stupid stuff, and controversy follows. Personally I like to think maybe if we ignore the stupid it will go away. Unfortunately it’s likely to many people believe/agree with the things he says but I do think getting in an uproar over it does anything but add more fuel o the fire. How many hits do you think the articles gotten just from people like us who think its too stupid to be serious.
As far as the 4th down call I thought it was the right decision. I like my chances vs the colts defense for 1.5 yards better than giving the ball back to number 18, even if they down it at the one, with 2 minutes left. Plus I thought they made it anyway and the ref couldn’t have possibly seen whether faulk had possession from the angle he had and it should have been reviewed.
I don't think Noble
is a troll like Silva though. I think he is just a very grumpy old man with mostly old-school ideas and a few really daft ones thrown in for good measure.
yea bad luck for the Pats not having a time out left
not that i was disappointed, any game the Pats lose is a good game. On 4th and inches i’d have said go for it, but 4th and 2 is a bit much buried that deep in your own half of the field. I think the worst part of the decision was the playcall though. When you absolutely need 2 yards and the game is on the line, don’t throw it 1-1.5 out and hope for the best… the reception has to be past the first down marker or you’re playing with fire.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
it wasn't bad luck
poor conservation of time outs was really Belichick’s mistake down toward the end of that game. Joe Posnanski wrote a pretty good post on Monday talking about how going for it on that 4th down wasn’t actually a bad decision.
its not a terrible decision, but a very risky one, and one I wouldnt personally advise
like i said, the worst part of the decision was the route that they had Faulk run. I think that (along with a bad spot) was their downfall. Again though I agree it wasn’t bad luck, because I considered it good luck for me! you’re right that poor time out management was a problem as well though.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
but the thing is
it’s not actually that risky. teams convert on 4th and 2 60% of the time, and that’s not even taking into account the fact that the Pats have a good offense. take a look at this, Posnanski says it better than I would.
If it was 4th and 2 on the 50, I would agree
But, he was on his own 30, and he gave one of the best QBs in the NFL 2 minutes and a short field to take the lead.
Nah
Still a good call. Teams don’t go for it as often as they should, and there’s no guarantee Peyton doesn’t take the Colts down the field from his own 30 (with 3 timeouts) anyway.
Agreed on the poor route by Faulk, KM.
David Romer did a study in 2003 about going for it, some very interesting stuff.
It was a terrible call
70 yards is a long ways to go.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
How can you say "terrible"?
Sounds like you’re just going by conventional wisdom, which is disappointing.
Well yeah
I looked at that link, James provided, so I recant terrible. I still think punting might have been the safer option, and they probably would have won. I don’t really follow football as closely as baseball from a stats standpoint. Also I really really really really hate Belichick, so anytime I can say something negative about him, I’ll do it.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
It should be noted
Faulk was the second option. Welker was the first but Brady chose not to go his way because the Colts brought pressure on that side. Welker was open on the slant but Brady chose the safest passing lane which meant giving it to Faulk. Its safer to throw away from pressure, because you want a clear passing lane, not some one in your face.
by Coolpapabell on Nov 18, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
throwing to Faulk wasn't the issue
Its that faulk didn’t run far enough out on the route
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Manning was getting the ball back if they punted
Like JoshNY said, either give Manning 100% chance of getting the bal, or close to 100% I don’t know what the odds of some sort of turn over on the punt return are, or 40% chance. Even at my own 30 I like my odds vs the colts defense better than I like stopping Manning with 2 minutes.
Peyton wasn't even that great Sunday though
Yeah, he had a lot of yardage, but he also threw 3 picks
Is he not still Peyton Manning?
That’s like the reverse logic of sticking with a crappy player because he’s had a few good games. Even if Peytons thrown 5 picks he’s still likely to regress to his Peyton mean.
Not to mention the Pats defense had lost control and the colts had come storming back fast.
He also completed 63.9% of his passes and was averaging 7.4 yards a completion. Maybe that’s a bad game by Peyton standards but imo at least, interceptions get overrated, he wasn’t having a bad game by normal standards.
Also my problem isn’t even with people thinking it’s a bad call, it’s the sports writers who are saying things like the entire Pats organization and the lockeroom have lost faith in Bellicheck because of that call and his decade of winning is coming to an end or something crazy. One sports writer said that call was proof that Bellichecks ego was now coming before the team and was a sign that he’ll soon be unraveling. Bellicheck has been making calls like that forever,
That's the thing
You just can’t take the risk of giving Peyton Manning that short of a field to work with. It’s almost a guaranteed disaster.
Oh, and I agree with the media thing. He’s still a great coach, and I doubt he lost the team.
To me the risk isn't giving Peyton a short field
It’s giving Peyton the ball vs keeping the ball. With 2 minutes and 3 time outs left the fact it’s on a short field is almost irrelevant to me on 4th and short.
the Colts had 1 timeout left
my problem wasn’t necessarily with going for it, it’s the way they went for it. They should have run the ball on 3rd down to either get under the 2 minute warning or force the Colts to use their last timeout. Then, the Pats shouldn’t have wasted their last timeout. Then, they probably shouldn’t have thrown a 1.5 yard pass on a play where if you don’t get 2 yards, you’re almost definitely gonna lose.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
4th and 2 is a big difference from something like 4th and inches
Getting 2 yards on 4th and down is never a guarantee.
Plus, driving 60 or 70 yards in 2 minutes is not easy, regardless of what Peyton did on his last drive.
And the Colts have a so-so defense
Not to mention the other alternative is giving the ball back to 18 with 2 minutes left. Like I said even if they managed to down a punt at the one I’d say they had a better chance of making that 4th down than keeping Manning out of the endzone.
Not sure the defense giving up the fewest points per game
can be characterized as “so-so.”
Meh
points per game IMO, is a pretty weak stat. It doesn’t take into account competition level for one thing, most basic stats don’t but that’s a major problem in a league like the nfl for me, and the colts haven’t exactly played the upper echelon of the nfl, and the fact that it doesn’t take into account just dumb luck sometimes, just for example Houston fumbling on the goal line after driving. The colts are pretty much in the middle of the pack in every defensive stat based on yardage.
Ranks don't really do it for me
especially when there are so many teams bunched up. The difference between 10th and 16th isn’t that big.
What I mean
is saying “xxx team is in the middle of the pack” doesn’t mean much when the difference between a team ranked 16th in yards/game and the team ranked 10th is like 15 yards per game.
There's an
XXX team?
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
how does the lingerie football league not have a TV contract?
that seems like the biggest no-brainer in the world.
I think it was 50/50
Not a terrible call, not a great one. Personally I would’ve punted. My problem is the straight-up math approach that many were taking earlier this week with basically no regard to context.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Sentiments like this from a blog I usually enjoy annoyed me
If you think Belichick’s decision was wrong, you’re probably dumb.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
That's very scientific
“You’re probably dumb”? How convincing.
3:45 PM on 10/25/09-changed signature to "Leon Washington for President"
4:45 PM on 10/25/09-Leon Washington suffers season-ending injury
ok, but
if by “context” you mean “Manning had just shredded the Pats’ D for the last TD” then I don’t see why you’d be so happy to give the ball back to him with (say) 70 yards to go and 2:00 left, plus three timeouts, rather than take a chance that your own star QB (who’d thrown for over 370 yards so far that game) could pick up two yards and keep the ball out of Manning’s hands entirely.
especially since Manning’s last drive had covered 79 yards in 1:46 without using any timeouts.
yes but
Pats had no timeouts left themselves. That I think is what makes the call more dubious.
true about that
and like I said above, the fact that the Pats had burnt their last two timeouts was a comparatively-under-the-radar bad decision by Belichick
What does that have to do with the next play?
So if Tom Brady throws a pick on his first pass of the game, are you going to run the ball the rest of the game or something?
But I mean that's like saying Johan had ALMOST
given up a homer, therefor we shouldn’t trust him anymore than someone like Ollie to get positive results on the next pitch.
if the "bad call" people
are willing to concede that Brady’s last pass was completely meaningless in the context of the decision, shouldn’t you guys concede that Mannings last drive was almost completely meaningless? Lots of teams go on long, sustained drives one posession and then do absolutely nothing on the next.
Or, to put it another way, you don’t say that just b/c Albert Pujols hit a homerun in his last at-bat means there’s no sense pitching to him next time b/c he’s definitely gonna hit a homerun again.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Well I've never said Mannings last drive itself mattered
To me what mattered is that the Pats defense had lost control of the game and allowed the Colts to quickly storm back without putting up much of a fight. But i can also agree with you that the way they went for it, the third down play specifically, was flawed.
Agreed--The third down play was key.
Assuming you’re thinking ahead and know in advance that you’ll go for it on fourth and short, you have two downs to grind out two yards on the ground. I also have to think it’s a hair easier to run on 3rd and 2 since you’re more likely to pass in that situation than on 4th and 2 and the D has to be mindful of that.
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 19, 2009 4:43 AM EST up reply actions
Like I said
I think it was about 50/50, I don’t think it’s as clear cut as Trent Dilfer and Advanced NFL Stats think it is (on opposite sides of the spectrum). It warranted discussion but ultimately I don’t think the move should be excessively panned or praised. That’s all I have to say ‘bout that, this was such a heated topic of discussion all over the place this week and I don’t think it needed to be.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
btw
Not saying you, or anyone else here, was heated.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 18, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
I already posted it up in the middle of this chain like an idiot
The decision to throw to Faulk:
Faulk was the second option. Welker was the first but Brady chose not to go his way because the Colts brought pressure on that side. Welker was open on the slant but Brady chose the safest passing lane which meant giving it to Faulk. Its safer to throw away from pressure, because you want a clear passing lane, you generally try to avoid throwing with someone in your face.
by Coolpapabell on Nov 18, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
I replied up top as well
The throw to Faulk wasn’t the bad part, it was the route Faulk ran, he should have been another yard or two up the field for that pass. Him running a route to before the first down marker, planned or otherwise, was the glaring error in this decision for me.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
The problem was 3rd down, not 4th.
Belichick already said that he had made up his mind earlier to go for it on 4th down down there.
So my beef is with the 3rd down play calling.
If it’s 3rd and 2, and you know already it is 4 down territory, PLUS you want to work the clock, then calling a long range pass play on 3rd down is incredibly stupid.
Brady ended up having to heave it away, and almost have it picked off. (which in hindsight wouldn’t have mattered)
Then they had to throw it again on 4th.
Again, given they considered that 4 down territory, they should have run the ball on 3rd and 2. Even if they didn’t make the 1st down, it would have run the clock down more, and probably gotten it a lot closer, so they might have had the option to run or pass on 4th down.
Just bad planning ahead.
I'm just amazed at how bitter we still are about the '07 collapse.
These last three years have been brutal. I’m fucking weary of it.
by Andrew McCarthy on Nov 18, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
However
I do think it is important for bloggers to call out writers, or other members of the media when they try to write these crappy pieces. I think the catch is that I don’t think they care what we think as long as we read it. Whether or not we value the writing might be irrelevant to them……and that sucks.
I swear
Gina I swear I did not paraphrase your response. I wrote it, posted, then read yours. I then soon realize I wasted my time, because you wrote the same damn thing!
by Coolpapabell on Nov 18, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
I don't believe Glavine every said that
Marty Noble offers absolutely no proof that Glavine ever mentioned it. I am convinced that Noble just made it up to write his grission story about Backman.
This is awful: “And that offended Glavine, Billy Wagner and others. They shared their thoughts with Wilpon, and the word spread through the organization. So the Mets were delighted when Jeff Francoeur became available and when Daniel Murphy wore his grit on his sleeve … and when Backman contacted Wilpon in September, looking for work.”
i bet he said it before the collapse was over
probably a few games into the end of season slide he commented that players weren’t taking these “meaningless” losses seriously, which I believe was true, and then it snowballed into “The Collapse”.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
No
If you had, you would be seeing posts about how Mark Sanchez=JaMarcus Russell or that Rex Ryan is the worst coach ever.
Ugh.
I’m a Jets fan, but I can’t read Gang Green Nation. I guess I’m just used to real analysis on this site.
How come?
this is a serious question I haven’t seen many Jets game. I just know he’s pretty much a defensive genius, not that being an offensive/defensive genius= great coach, cam cameron, wade phillips, mike nolan, norv turner being perfect examples of that.
Game management
He has had some problems managing the game especially late in the game. Its his first year of head coaching in the NFL, so you can’t be too harsh on him. However, it should be noted that McDaniels is in the same boat but does an excellent job of managing the game. I think it can come with more experience.
by Coolpapabell on Nov 18, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
I think you might be responsible for turning this into nflblog.com
by Coolpapabell on Nov 18, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think he's been fine
and he certainly put together one hell of a defense. If we had Brett Favre over Sanchez we’d be at worst 6-3. Sanchez has single handedly lost 2 games, the Saints game and Buffalo game. I’m not gonna hate on him, he’s a rookie qb and needs time to develop. I think Rex has been doing a fine job coaching.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Right
I didn’t think we were going to be very good at all this year. I’ll sit through some rough games by a rookie QB. The shellacking of the Texans and owning Brady in Week 2 were pretty enjoyable. People were expecting waaaay too much after 3 games.
Well, I disagree a bit
Sanchez has been pretty bad, had he thrown 3 picks instead of 5 or 6 against Buffalo we probably win, and if he didn’t throw the Sharper interception and fumble the ball in the end zone we at least have a chance to win the Saints game. If he improves significantly next season, we should be a play off team. Every loss was a close one.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
I wouldn't call Rex a bad coach
He has a rookie quarterback who’s made a lot of mistakes (better than Russell, however). Plus, they lost Jenkins, who is an awesome fat man.
by boom_roasted on Nov 18, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Glavine actually pitched well after his 300th win.
I believe he won his 300th, his 10th of the year, on August 5, 2007. In his starts after that
he was extremely good (6QS of 7GS) until September 20th
8/11 6.1ip, 2er
8/17 7.0ip, 2er
8/23 5.0ip, 6er
8/28 7.0ip, 0er
9/2 6.0ip, 1er
9/8 7.0ip 1er
9/14 7.2ip, 2er
9/20 5.0ip, 4er
9/25 5.0ip, 6er
9/30 0.1ip 7er
Glavine wasn’t the reason the Mets lost in 2007, but given the way he pitched in his last three starts of the season I would encourage him to shut his fucking mouth and avoid being criticial of his Mets teammates from that year.
i agree with glavine and wagner
it honestly doesnt seem like most of the guys on the team get pissed enough when the team loses
"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner
What should they do? Break chairs, throw fists?
You’re starting to scare me, this is an argument I would use to read on Metsblog.
Punch a garbage can and break their wrist like Jason Isringhausen
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 18, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
iron their uniform while wearing it like Lew Ford
or allegedly John Smoltz.. That shows grittiness
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 18, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
You know what they should do?
Get into bar fights with glass bottles like Joe Beimel. Bleeding is a sure sign of grittiness
after every loss, the player most responsible must do this:
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Why do you think there are so few Japanese crappy players who try to make it here?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Ha ha! I have no idea what this is from
but for some reason it resonated with my funny bone.
by TheBigStapler on Nov 19, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
damn you, damn broccoli, and damn the wright brothers
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 19, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
It used to bother the hell out of me when Jaret Wright was on the Yankees
I’d see the back cover of the newspapers, it’d say something disparaging about “Wright”, and I’d cringe, hoping that it was not in reference to David.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 19, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
haha well this one refers to the aviators
but i know what you mean.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 20, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
not loaf on grounders to their right
Oops, sorry, that was a vet, Delgado.
In fairness, Glavine might be talking about whether guys took extra BP or infield practice, or were in the weight room, whatever, and not whether they punched walls after a loss.
I remember one time after he committed an error,
Jose Reyes threw his glove down forcefully, angry with himself for making such a mistake. The commentators on the FAN and the actual fans calling up proceeded to call Jose a baby for acting out in such a way. I guess that’s why he’s your favorite player, he cares so much about how he can help the team.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Reyes will NEVER win with the media
No matter what he does. He’s either not passionate enough or he acts like a spoiled baby.
*according to the media, not me.
I <3 Reyes.
He'd have to win World Series MVP
and even then. I love Jose too
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
"Jose Reyes was 18 of 22 in the Series this year, with 9 triples, 4 homers, and 19 RBI"
but he pouted after each of those 4 unclutch outs and danced during all 18 of his hits. Therefore, we’re giving the MVP Award to Omir Santos, who didn’t actually play in the World Series, but that homer he hit against Jonathan Papelbon last year sure was awesome.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 18, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But the kids love him
and, in my opinion, especially with regards to baseball, kids have the best intuition. Jose Reyes is awesome.
by TheBigStapler on Nov 19, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
The torch has been passed! A new ombudsman reigns supreme!
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Tom Glavine...DIAF
Tommy, Tommy, Tommy. I see i get to talk about you once again. I was at the local sports bar where i watch my beloved Mets. Considering this game happened in the middle of a football Sunday it was hard to get a tv to watch. Luckily one of the bar tender was a huge Mets fan and the game was put on. Put on the tiniest 15 inch tv. But alas me, my new gf(a met fan as well (love)), a few stressed Met fans and the bar tender there knocking back cold ones on the final day of the season.
Only to be shot in the chest by an opening 8 run first inning.!!!!!!! I hate you tom. I really do. Not only because you destroyed the Mets all those years in Atlanta but because you willingly took the ball on the biggest game of the season and laid an egg so huge, my blood boils to this day 2 years later thinking about it.
My buddy has met tom glavine, infact he is a family friend of his. My friend asked me if i would like to meet him for thanksgiving down in Atlanta at his uncles house. I turned it down.
I would be telepathically firing rounds of bullets from my brain into Toms heart with the most evil of glares. And at some point burst out and yell and ask him straight out…“8 IN THE FIRST TOM!!!!!!! WHY DIDNT YOU TAKE YOURSELF OUT…WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!??”
i really really do hate you tom.
I was at work training in Florida so they were showing all the Marlins games
Woke up really late that Sunday after celebrating Maine’s game the night before and decided to go to IHOP despite the fact that I would likely miss the first 2 innings or so. Got back to the hotel bar to watch all excited, sit down and it’s 7-0 and Glavine is out. A potentially great day (IHOP, Mets winning, etc.) was ruined. I’m actually glad I wasn’t in NY, I probably would’ve thrown a brick through the Mets Clubhouse storefront. Or something equally psychotic.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 19, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'm offended
That Glavine was ever a Met
by scott from peekskill on Nov 19, 2009 10:43 PM EST reply actions
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