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So, apparently Chase Utley ISN'T as good as Ryan Howard or Shane Victorino. Yeah, Victorino was apparently, according to Rubin, the 7th most valuable player in the National League. Where's Adrian Gonzalez? What did Andre Ethier do that prompted even the slightest MVP consideration?

3 months ago Images-1_tiny squid92 126 comments 0 recs  | 

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Wow
The last time I had an NL MVP vote was 2007, when Jimmy Rollins edged Tulowitzki. I voted for Rollins No. 1 after he backed up his “team to beat” prognostication.

That’s some solid voting history, Rubin.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 24, 2009 3:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rubin is obsessed with that "team to beat" nonsense

I would guess that he used some variation on “team to beat” as his lead in at least 40 game stories over the last 3 years.

by Bieser's Balk on Nov 24, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2007 Phils

Just looking back at that, nice collection of WARS there: Utley 8.0, Rollins 6.7, Rowand 6.2, Howard 4.3, Victorino 2.9, Burrell 2.2. The Mets had the big 3 of Wright 8.4, Reyes 5.1, Beltran 4.9, then a big falloff to Delgado at 1.5.

I know Werth is considered douchey, but he originally signed with Phils before the 2007 season for $850k. Mets could use some signings like that. And Victorino was a 2 time rule 5 pick who the dodgers didn’t want back so Phils stashed him in Scranton.

Coupla blind squirrel moves maybe but they worked out.

by wobatus on Nov 24, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What an asshat.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have mixed feelings about Rubin

I like the investigation work that he does and I also love his emphasis on minor league players (though not always his analysis of them).

by TheBigStapler on Nov 24, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's an emphasis

on something he knows nothing about, which makes him look like a buffoon.

"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-

by future on Nov 24, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

His Top 10 list this year for BA contradicted not only consensus opinions but reality. For example, Rubin cited a scout who saw Familia give up 6 walks in 1 game. I believe that someone at MinorLeagueBall.com did research and figured out that Familia has never done that as a professional.

by JayWise on Nov 25, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember reading that, yes. The most he ever game up in a game was 5.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 25, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Phillies players with higher WAR (per FanGraphs) than Shane Victorino:

Chase Utley: 7.6
Ryan Howard: 4.8
Jayson Werth: 4.7
Raul Ibanez: 4.2
Cole Hamels: 3.8
-————————
Shane Victorino: 3.4

Cliff Lee had 2.4 WAR in 79.2 innings.

If you don’t like WAR, well Victorino is well behind the Philly pack in wOBA, too:

Chase Utley: .402
Ryan Howard: .393
Jayson Werth: .382
Raul Ibanez: .379
-————————
Shane Victorino: .354

And by UZR/150:

Chase Utley: 11.3
Raul Ibanez: 10.7
Jayson Werth: 6.1
Pedro Feliz: 5.0
Jimmy Rollins: 2.9
Ryan Howard: 1.2
-————————
Shane Victorino: -4.2

by Eric Simon on Nov 24, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He's a Gold Glover, dammit!

And he’s so gritty, he’s got Spam where his heart should be!

Now go back to your spreadsheets!

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 24, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Victorino did lead the league

in taking beer showers though.
Seriously, that’s pretty ridiculous. I guess Ethier is there because he had about 5 walk-off hits and Rubin saw some highlights of him being mobbed at home plate. That’s research!

by Mackey Sasser on Nov 24, 2009 3:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think

we all agreed on that many many moons ago.

"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-

by future on Nov 24, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Usually I don't care much about MVP voting

And even this year, the only complaints are past pick #1, since pretty much all the #1s were perfectly acceptable, if not dead on right. But Utley’s lack of MVP consideration is a little troubling, since of all the current Phillies, he’s the guy who looks like he’s going to deserve some HOF consideration after he retires. He might get in even if he never gets the MVP cred, since he passes the old “best player at his position over an extended period of time” sniff test, but it’d be a shame if he keeps doing what he’s been doing for a few more years and doesn’t make it in on the first ballot because he never won an MVP award and because Howard and Rollins were viewed as the “true leaders” of the 2007-09 quasi-dynasty the Phils have put together.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 24, 2009 3:32 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

yup

pretty ridiculous. Even most Phillies fans I know don’t appreciate Utley enough – they all think Howard is the best player on the team.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Nov 24, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

howard is

utley is a pretty good second baseman, maybe the 2nd best on their team

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The second best second baseman on the Phillies?!?!

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 24, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He didn't set-up a game-ending unassisted triple play, did he? I didn't think so.

Eric Bruntlett all the way.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no

worded that wrong

Utley is a pretty good 2B,and maybe the second best player on their team.

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, gotcha.

Although I disagree with your notion that Howard is better or more valuable to the Phillies, basically for the reasons Josh set forth below.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 24, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Utley is the best position player on that team.

Maybe top 5 best play in baseball Howard isn’t even a top five 1b

by Delgado on Nov 24, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Almost definitely Top 5 in baseball

If you consider the last few years. Whose been better? Pujols, Mauer, Hanley, that’s about all I can come up with.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 24, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wright.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not last year

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Nov 24, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No

I’d say Pujols, Mauer, Utely, Ramirez are you’re top four, in that order, maybe Utly second. Wright has been near 5, and if he had a better season this year, he’d probably be third or fourth on that list.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Over the last 4 or 5 years

Utley>A-rod

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hmm

Pujols (duh), Tex, Fielder, Cabrera, Morales, Gonzalez

Wow you’re right

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Morales

That’s just last year though mostly. Berkman has had a better career but not sure how well he’ll age either.

by wobatus on Nov 24, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

I’d really like to try what you’re smoking

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

which one of them is not better than howard

note: i looked up absolutely no stats when i listed the first basemen better than howard, i’m going off of what i remember of their stats and on-field performances

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I generally agree with you

Pujols is no doubt better than Howard.

Tex has great offense (a higher OPS+ over the last 3 years…wish i had time to look up better stats) and elite defense.

I love Cabrera’s offense, but his defense and grisson are seriously lacking.

I don’t think Morales has been good for long enough for me to assume that this past year was his actual level of production

I’d love to see what Gonzalez does in a full season away from Petco…great offense and great defense in one of the toughest hitting environs in baseball

by JayWise on Nov 25, 2009 8:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My bad

I thought you were listing players better than Utley

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 25, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Utley>Howard

There are a lot of good first basemen, but there are few great second basemen.
Utley 7.6 WAR
Howard 4.8

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Nov 24, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Utley>Howard is an understatement

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Utely is a future hall of famer

Howard is a guy who’ll hit a bunch of homers and do NOTHING else.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

utley should be a future hall of famer

i dont think he will be

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, let's see what he does with, you know, the rest of his career.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think there might be a problem with him making the hall of fame, considering his age

He’ll need to have a sustained peak because he’s already pretty old.

by JayWise on Nov 25, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's amazing when you compare the Phillies "core" with our "core".

Even though everyone kinda came into their own at the same time, Rollins, Howard, Utley, they’re all 30+/-. Wright, Reyes, they’re five +/- years younger, and basically putting up the same caliber numbers at their respective positions.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 25, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're obviously stupid.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 24, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Regarding Phillies fans of Utley

this is a quote from WholeCamels over at the goodphight

Chase Utley really isn’t underrated or underappreciated in Philadelphia, except to the extent that lots of people probably think he’s merely "really good" instead of "retardedly awesome."

the number one issue facing the Mets is finding that one guy who’s going to say "get on my shoulders and ride me to the championship."

by Sokojoe on Nov 24, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if howard mashes the way

he has and has a long career of doing it, he would be a solid bet for the HOF.

by gbaked on Nov 24, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

perhaps

but Utley is almost as good at hitter (career OPS+ 129 vs. 142 for Howard) and provides that offense as a great defensive 2B (15.5 career UZR/150) while Howard is an average 1B (1.3 career UZR/150). If Howard were to suddenly suffer a career-ending injury, the Phils could find another player to provide similar production at 1B; if Utley were to do the same, they wouldn’t be able to find anyone close to as good to play 2B, because he’s just so much better than almost every other 2B in the league.

(see today’s Joe Posnanski blog post about Joe Mauer for a discussion of how many other good-hitting 1B there are in the league, for example.)

by JoshNY on Nov 24, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was not saying

he is better then Utley. I think Utley is a much better player.

But their right side… is just really good.

I tend to feel that WAR overvalues defense a little…

by gbaked on Nov 24, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ofeense and defense have equal value

the problem I have is that defensive stats haven’t been perfected yet

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what ofeense is

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Howard seems like the type to have a steep decline.

 He was blocked by Thome for a couple years too, so he got off to a late start. I don’t think he’ll last long enough to put up HOF numbers.

by dtro on Nov 24, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the late start will hurt him

He didn’t really come into his own until he was 25 or so, so next season, he will be 30 with 220 or so HR’s Factor in his profile as a player, and you end up with a Thome/Vaughn/Ortiz type with a late start.
After checking prospectus, his top comps are all those guys along with Cecil Fielder, Delgado, Sexson, and a bunch of other power guys who fell off fairly quickly. If he was a few years younger, he would have a good shot, but I don’t think we’ll be considering him a hall of famer when hes 36…

by djg2111 on Nov 24, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 24, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Made my post before reading yours

Well reasoned, quality post.

"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-

by future on Nov 24, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree he could fall off

I hate fat baseball players.

although he is more of the just HUGE guy then fat…

His knees will prob go in the next couple years.

by gbaked on Nov 24, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt he makes the hall for one reason

He started his pro career a little late. In this era 500 HRs isn’t that amazing and he plays in a bandbox.

His defense until this year was horrid. I think he needs to play into his late 30s to make it.

He just turned 30 last week. If he keeps up his pace then he will be close to 500 HRs at 35. If he stays healthy he should make it to 500 easily.

But then we have to wonder what kind of liability he would be in the field by then, probably a full time DH.

"I got my pregnant wife (the Yankee fan) with me. Hoping my kid learns to kick her everytime the Mets score." -Schifftis-

by future on Nov 24, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you'll read that guys reasoning

He basically said he thought Affeldt had a good year and was deserving of some recognition, but he wasn’t a top 10 MVP candidate. He knew that Pujols was going to win the award unanimously, so he just wanted to make a “statement” vote with his 10th place vote.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 26, 2009 2:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, he also made the statement that a reliever is worthy of MVP recognition

which is a stupid statement.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 26, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you've missed the point

You should really re-read his article.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 26, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2009/11/24/breaking-down-my-nl-mvp-ballot/

The part about Affeldt:

Wait, what? OK, OK, this is my "sore thumb" vote. And no, I can’t really make an airtight case for Affeldt, a middle reliever, as the 10th most valuable player in the league. Especially when I don’t have Tim Lincecum, or any other pitcher for that matter, on my ballot. (Without glancing at Win Shares, I’d have to believe there are many pitchers who rank way above Affeldt.) In choosing Affeldt, I also bypassed several other worthy candidates. For instance, have you noticed there isn’t a single Dodger on my ballot? But hey, this is my "prerogative" vote. If it were a three- or even five-slot ballot, I wouldn’t dream of making a "statement" with my final selection. But this is a ballot that goes 10-deep, we all knew Pujols would win in a landslide, and there’s really no impact anyone can make with their final selection. So I think it’s completely harmless to give a tip of the cap to the relief pitcher who had the lowest ERA in the league while appearing almost exclusively in highly leveraged situations. Affeldt was an MVP in the bullpen, all right. He didn’t allow a run from May 8 to July 24 — posting 27 scoreless innings over 28 games. He did his job — a job of ever-increasing dependency — better than anyone else in the NL, and given all the close games the Giants played, he made a huge impact in their final 88-win record.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 26, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I get it.

It’s just a stupid player to pick. I like Affeldt, but again, he’s a reliever.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 26, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's not really picking him

Just giving him a nod. Like he said the tenth vote doesn’t mean anything in terms of determining who the mvp is, it’s really kind of just a nice thing to do.

by Gina on Nov 26, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can understand where he's coming from, at least.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 26, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

After looking at this

he’d fit right in with the Mets front office. Good lord.

by Bieser's Balk on Nov 24, 2009 4:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That's why he lobby Omar.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and honestly

why do you care who gets the 2-10 slots on the ballot

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 4:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Principle. Stuff like that, being left off of, put on MVP ballots can also hurt/help a career.

That’s one of the main arguments about Gil Hodges “not deserving” to be in the HoF, that he has no MVP votes.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 24, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mark reynolds really got no recognition

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 4:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have a hunch

that the voters have a hard time overlooking both the fact that the Diamondbacks only won 70 games (not necessarily that this should be relevant, but they do tend to want to select MVPs from winning teams) and the fact that he shattered the previous record (set by him last year) for strikeouts in a single season. It doesn’t surprise me that those two combined were enough to make voters write off his 44 HR.

Personally, I think his middling OBP at least should play a role here too. Flashy HR totals are nice, but in the end, he had the same OPS+ (123) as David Wright in what was widely considered to be a disappointing year for DW, to put Reynolds’ overall offense in perspective. He’s also not a great 3B, and fared worse (in a small sample size) when they tried him at 1B.

So, overall, he’s young and improving and hardly a bad player by any stretch, but he’s not MVP-caliber at this point, either.

by JoshNY on Nov 24, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He was also on a team with a better candidate

Justin
Upton

20/20 season with a 126 OPS+, .388 wOBA, 4.5 WAR

Reynolds had a 123, .381, and 3.9 respectively

by JayWise on Nov 25, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I lobby for Rubin to get fired

for incompetence.
This is worse than Zobrist

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Nov 24, 2009 4:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I hereby coin the term

to zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. “My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino.”

by deadspy3 on Nov 24, 2009 5:05 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

rec'd

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Nov 25, 2009 6:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ethier was very clutch and played for first place team

If anyone has the most recent THT anual, check up the article on playoff probability added, and I’d bet that Ethier was one of the best this year.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 5:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately

he also has to play the field, and he was a butcher in right, and only 23rd in wOBA (right ahead of David Wright).

One would like to say something like “he carried the Dodgers when Manny was out” but he actually was awful when Manny was out.

by wobatus on Nov 24, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What did Andre Ethier do that prompted even the slightest MVP consideration?

He hit like 4 walk-off homers. Clearly that’s more important than a seasons’ body of work.

http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/

by PWHjort on Nov 24, 2009 6:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lobby

Funny how the infamous press conferance had no lasting effect on anything, except the English language.

by letsgocyclones on Nov 24, 2009 6:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

I just lost any respect I had for him as a sports journalist.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 7:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty distraught right now.

The fact that a guy would waste his precious 7th place vote like that…it just boggles the mind. It makes me question my love for this game. I’m not sure I can ever get over this. Did anyone realize that with Rubin’s vote, Victorino earned a total of 8 points? And finished tied for 18th place? Do you realize how close he came to upsetting Pujols, thanks to Rubin?!? How am I gonna explain this to my grandkids 30 years from now? How am I supposed to tell them that, had Rubin given Ethier more respect, instead of finishing in 6th place, he would’ve finished in…well…6th place. But still… I’m not looking forward to that day. Sorry, guys, I really need to be alone right now.

by Gobias Industries on Nov 24, 2009 7:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

First

Awesome name. Now Go Buy Us some coffee.

Second, I don’t think the complaint here is so much about how the order shook out, but about what it says about Rubin’s credibility as a voting member of the BBWAA, and about what this could mean in terms of Utley’s chances at the HOF. I don’t really care much about who put who where, but leaving Utley off MVP ballots could have effect on how he’s eventually remembered, when he’s clearly one of the elite players in the game right now. If 15 years from now, Ryan Howard is an HOFer and Utley isn’t, it would be a huge indictment on the Hall’s acceptance process.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 24, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

don't say that

chase utley could retire tomorrow, and ryan howard could set the all-time HR record… you never know

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 9:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, you know what I'm saying though

If they both stay healthy and on their respective career arcs.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 24, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You know...I'd rather have Ryan than Bonds.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's right, you never know

Now Let’s Go Mets!

Or… wait a minute! David Wright might deny the holocaust tomorrow while the Phillies collectively brainstorm a solution to the Mid-East crisis. See, that’s why you should never say anything about anything. Thanks for the
reminder.
I was going to order a pizza tonight but I decided not to since my phone might explode and lodge shards in my head.

by letsgocyclones on Nov 24, 2009 10:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Breathing is pretty risky. I'd recommend stopping, just in case.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The point

Is that again, a sports journalist (one of the best covering the mets, sad as that is) demonstrates that there are some really rather large holes in his understanding of how to evaluate the game and the people who play it. Understanding the game is his JOB. It’s what he chose to do with his life.

by SuperT on Nov 24, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yep

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh well

I sort of liked Rubin.

by Mount17 on Nov 24, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Meaning, we don't have total douches on the field?

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you say douche

i say “person who’s serious about the sport”

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Wright coming back from a concussion to finish out his worst season, and a meaningless season shows he's serious.

I think Beltran doing the same, having a bone on bone bruise on his knees (Plural!! Both knees!!), and still playing the final month of a meaningless season shows he’s serious.
I think Reyes showing his passion by fighting with his new manager to stay in a game after he hurt himself, throwing his glove in frustration of making an error, and fighting to come back all year to play in a meaningless season shows he’s serious.

Maybe they’re just not serious enough like Victorino who complains balls and strikes from center and doesn’t go after balls that are still in play. Too bad.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah I agree Wright and Beltran do seem to care about the game, same with Santana and others

if only we could get more good players like that though

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

of course you don't agree with the Reyes sentiment

because he smiles too much and you hate him

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Nov 25, 2009 6:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

reyes is lacksaidaisical

we’ve gone through this many times

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 25, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You mean you perceive Reyes to be lackadaisical.

You have no objective knowledge of whether or not this is factually correct.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Nov 25, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His teammates do, too.

Remember those interviews they never gave in which they never said he was?

by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 25, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

spell lackadaisical before i give your opinions any weight.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 25, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

unlike that Jose Reyes player

what a jerk, always caring about the game!!! If only he played like Victorino, and cared about the game.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 24, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What defines difference between Mets and Phillies

1. Phillies didn’t need to start Brian Lawrence and Phil Humber in must-win games in 2007

2. Phillies had healthy and dominant closer in 2008

432. Lack of Shane Victorino types on Mets

by Bieser's Balk on Nov 25, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right. We all know that, basically, our team is playing specifically to lose.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 25, 2009 7:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True for the wrong reasons

Not because he isa hard-nosed player, but because he is a rule 5 pick (like Werth was a cheap free agent signing) who has had a WAR of 2.9, 4.1 and 3.4 the last 3 seasons, basically the 5th best position player on the team who out points anyone after the Mets’ big 3 when they are healthy (and this year his 3.4 tied him with the Mets’ best position player for WAR, Wright).

The Phils have done a better job of finding guys to supplement their best players. The mets haven’t. Luck or design, a guy like Victorino is a good example of the difference between the teams (not this year, but in 2008 and 2007). Not for the type of player he is as in style of play, but just for being a good player.

They got a great year out of Rowand, ditched Burrell in time, grabbed Werth in time, got a nice year from ibanez, got some good seasons from Victorino for essentially nothing, etc.

Last year Victorino ranked 3rd in WAR among Philly position players actually, but Howard and then Burrell weren’t too far behind.

by wobatus on Nov 25, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So he should be on an MVP ballot because he's a fine example of a supporting player?

You’re a contrarian, fine, but this is about MVP votes, and that’s not what you’re arguing here. All of the above has nothing to do with this discussion, because your reasons for liking Victorino are not the reasons Rubin awarded him the 7th spot on his MVP ballot. Rubin found him to be the 7th most valuable player in the NL because he provides the Phillies with that special fire and grit that makes them a contending team, and which the Mets so sorely lack, not because he provides the NL with a good example of a supporting player.

by SuperT on Nov 25, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he was saying

Rubin saying that Victorino is the difference between the Mets and the Phillies teams is true, which I agree with him. Not that Rubin was justified in voting for him.

by Gina on Nov 25, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

Thanks. I wasn’t saying he was worthy of an mvp vote, but discussing Rubin’s contention that he is the type of player who represents the difference between the Mets and Phils. But I think Rubin thinks the reason is because Victorino is a gamer, but it’s really just because he is a good supporting player.

by wobatus on Nov 25, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

did he take that article down?

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 9:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

well

Where’s Adrian Gonzalez? Maybe ask the other 19 guys who didn’t put him on their ballots?

Why is Victorino 7th? Ask the other guy who put him there.

What did Andre Ethier do to warrant MVP consideration? Ask the other 23 guys who put him on their ballots, including the 2 guys who had him 2nd (actually maybe 1, I don’t recall Rubin’s ballot and the link isn’t working for me now)

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 9:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Whats your point

That because other people were wrong too we shouldn’t talk about Rubin being wrong?

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 24, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's the x amount of people can't be wrong idea

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Nov 24, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

obviously

because the world is flat and Jews have horns.

x amount of people aren’t ever wrong, right?

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Nov 24, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll never get how so many Jews hide their horns so well

mine are just always so obvious

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I used my pouch of Jew gold to have my horns removed. Now I have neither. :(

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 25, 2009 7:44 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

LOL Rec'd

I guess that makes you not a Jew at all anymore. I’m only half, so I’ve only got these little stumps and a coinpurse with some loose change :(.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 25, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It makes me feel so empty inside.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 25, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And that's a pretty classic fallacy

Belief doesn’t dictate truth. Everyone in the world could be wrong about a particular fact, just because they all agreed that wouldn’t make the fact true.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 24, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So American Idol is the highest rated show on TV

therefore it’s better than The Wire? Or Thriller is the best selling record, so it’s better than Sgt Pepper’s? How about when most of the world thought homosexuality was a mental defect, or non whites were sub-human?

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Nov 24, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Something like a quarter of Americans think Barack Obama didn’t win the 2008 election by legitimate means. So clearly, those 100 millionish people must be right!

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Nov 24, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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