Rumor: Mets involved in possible 3 Team deal sending Castillo to Cubs, Overbay to Mets, and Milton Bradley to Jays
Would clear space for O-Dog and Murph could be a bench player/platoon 1st
10 days ago
Jsz
301 comments
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Comments
Yes to the trade.
Hopefully it can get done. But we need to get a platoon partner for Overbay because he CANNOT hit lefties. Which would probably mean goodbye to Murphy, which is too bad.
And I wouldn’t sign O-Dog. I’d rather trade for Uggla or sign Polanco for cheap.
by supermets on Nov 9, 2009 7:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes, get Dan Uggla
we want better defence at second, thats why Castillo would go; Uggla was -10.1 UZR
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 9, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Castillo was -10 too
and Uggla can hit.
by supermets on Nov 9, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes but there are players who can hit AND field
why settle for someone who can only do one or the other?
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you make an excellent arguement
i lobby for one dimensional players
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that would give us 9 dimensions
which is like……4 levels past the realm of that which is sometimes almost understood.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
depends on if you're using string theory or not.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
physicists would know nothing of such things
glad im not a physicist
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Name an available affordable second baseman
who can hit and field. And remember that Uggla was around average in UZR last year.
by supermets on Nov 9, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Polanco
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's a decent hitter and a great fielder
by EtSuKe on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's the best fielder
regardless of what the the Chase Utley Fellating media want to say.
President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club
by Hoyadestroya85 on Nov 10, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if you call average -10
he’s career -10, and in 2007 he was -9. He’s not a good fielder.
and as for decent second basemen, how about Felipe Lopez? 7.8 UZR at 2b this year, with a .356 wOBA (projected .333 this year). Was 4.6 WAR last year. And he’s a career 5.1 UZR at 2b.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 10, 2009 6:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what he means is
in 2008 Uggla was 2.0 UZR/150. That’s a positive number, not a negative one. and he’s -2.9/150 for his career, which isn’t great, but isn’t the Adam Dunn-like butcher (-17.9/150) that he’s being made out to be either.
by JoshNY on Nov 10, 2009 8:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Felipe Lopez was awesome at St. John's
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 10, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this would be nice, and probably too much to hope for
I actually like the idea of Polanco if he could be had for a reasonable price. Dan Uggla would be a horrible choice. Infield defense was a major issue this year, and he would be a downgrade over castillo, and thats hard to do.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 8:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Uggla was better than Castillo this year defensively
and was actually a positive defender by UZR last year
by JoshNY on Nov 9, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 of his last 3 seasons have had massively negative UZRs, and one was marginally above zero
Better than Castillo isnt saying much, castillo was awful defensively. I’m not saying uggla isnt better than castillo, im just saying he’s still not a great option
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but as supermets pointed out above
are there really second basemen available who are good hitters and good fielders?
by JoshNY on Nov 9, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
chase utley
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Placido Polanco and Felipe Lopez i think are both better options available on FA market
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would lve Polanco
He’s a great fielder coming off a down year offensively so he’d probably be cheap, but he is usually a really good hitter.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he would be ideal, i'd love to see they go after him
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Castillo, get back Snyder or Overbay
Sign Holliday, sign Polanco, trade for Harang <3, sign Harden. Boom, team fixed.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
would go a long way
even though i dont like Snyder much.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not the question I asked
you said you didn’t want Uggla because he’s a good hitter but not a good fielder. I asked you what 2Bs were available who are good hitters and good fielders. you gave me two guys who are good fielders but below-average hitters. if you want the Mets to have a good-fielding 2B with a weak bat then say so but don’t claim that the two guys you’re suggesting are both good hitters and good fielders.
by JoshNY on Nov 10, 2009 9:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
both are above average hitters for their position
sure Uggla is a bit better as a hitter than both, that doesnt make him a better player though.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 10, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uggla is a significant amount better as a hitter than both
by JoshNY on Nov 10, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
uggla is a bit better at slugging than Polanco, and essentially even with Lopez, and both field FAR better than Uggla
Uggla
OPS .815
OBP .345
avg .243
UZR/150:-9.6
Polanco
OPS .727
OBP .331
avg .285
UZR/150: 11.0
Lopez
OPS .810
OBP .383
avg .310
UZR/150: 7.6
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 10, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A run is a run
offensively or defensively
by EtSuKe on Nov 9, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed, but if you can decrease the number of runs your team gives up and increase the number they put out
or just increase the number they put out, and give up the same number, i’d take two ways to improve on runs instead of one. If you’re bad at defense and go through a cold streak, you hurt the team two ways. if you’re good at defense and go through a cold streak at least you only hurt the team one way. I’m not arguing that Uggla isn’t better than Castillo, i’m arguing that Uggla is a worse choice than other available players.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
please please please please
Note: Evans would be the guy to platoon with Overbay in this hypothetical situation, right? The guy that crushed lefties in the minors but then rode the bench in the final month of the season because… um… I don’t know? He was busy curing cancer with Socks!?
On a related note, September sucked.
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
by meigs1414 on Nov 9, 2009 8:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jerry's still the manager, right? Nope, no Evans.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry's the manager until June 10th.
I’m calling he gets fired that day, right after we get swept in San Diego.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Before or after 3 AM?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's an afternoon game, so before.
Omar is trying to be kinder, gentler.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Make it 3 PM, then.
Is there any precidence for a manager being fired DURING the game?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet it happened at least once to
Billy Martin or Leo Durocher.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like it
as long as Omar remembers to get another 2B
"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner
by metsguy234 on Nov 9, 2009 8:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How funny would it be if we made this trade, and then O-Dog decided to stay in LA and play for Torre ?.
I’d be LMAO until at least May.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
...and another thing...
what is this “framework of the deal” BS ?.
Look…it’s simple…you give me this guy, I give you this guy….you want to split any difference in salary ?……DONE !.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 8:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hah, easy enough to say
But this move makes far more sense for the Mets than either of the either two teams. That’s not to say it makes no sense for them, but its a no brainer for the Mets, and not for the Cubs or Jays. Castillo would essentially block up Starlin Castro, or force the Cubs to have to deal with moving Castillo or Theriot sooner or later. And acquiring Bradley isn’t a no-brainer for anyone, especially considering Overbay was far more productive in 2009. Are they really any better off with Lind at 1B and Bradley at DH than Overbay at 1B and Lind at DH? I’m almost worried the Mets might need to give someone another piece to get this done.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Nov 9, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good.
Throw Murph in there, too and get Heilman back.
Oh wait…….maybe not.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd try to hold onto murph
as a young/cheap homegrown player w/ undeniable promise i’d probably not just thoughtlessly “throw him in”. let him accumulate around 300ab’s in tatis’ role this season and see if he continues to develop, like his supporters are so certain he will. i doubt he’s the dealbreaker here; but if he is then so be it.
by robcast23 on Nov 9, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
limited ABs won't help his development.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They will in short, selected doses.
He’s not going to be an all-star. Just get him playing time of some sort, but his development won’t really be that stunted if he gets platoon time at the major league level.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely see
the Mets at least having to throw some money the Blue Jays’ way. And hopefully Hudson wouldn’t be an automatic.
by Mount17 on Nov 9, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
And again reminds us how frustrating it is that Murph wasn’t even tried at 2B. After 1B, 2B is probably the next most likely position where you might find a solution from the farm in the next few years. I’m not saying Murphy should have started at 2B, but snagging a Castillo-esque option at a more reasonable contract would have been a better option if it seemed like Murphy could spend some time there.
It is kind of scary, but I can totally envision Omar signing Hudson for a ridiculous price and calling that his big offensive upgrade for the offseason. ::Shudder::
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Nov 9, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree it would be worth a try at 2B
but that seems like a big long shot. He had good instincts, a good first step, and a high UZR at 1st, but he doesn’t seem (at least to my untrained eye) to have the hands or quickness for 2nd. Pure speculation, but for all we know they DID try him at 2B in practice, and he looked terrible, and they gave up.
Also speculation, but there are also athleticism drills (we always hear Pagan finishes first) in which he may have (likely) scored poorly, which strongly suggests that he can’t play 2nd. The Mets may often bad decisions, but at least they have a lot more information on this question then we do.
I also find it hard to believe that a potentially competent 2B could really look that terrible in LF. Yes, the infield and outfield are a lot different, but they’re not THAT different. It might be a bad analogy, but it’s not like asking a WR to play offensive lineman. Good athletes show more versatility then that.
Tatis isn’t the best athlete, but he doesn’t embarass himself playing multiple positions. And 2B is typically reserved for the best athletes on your team. I would bet even Uggla would look decent in LF, RF.
I still definitely agree though that the Mets had/have nothing to lose in trying him there, considering he doesn’t really project to have the bat for 1B.
by DoghouseBlues on Nov 10, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Outfield and infield have different required skillsets
I’m not saying I Think Murphy could have been competent at 2B, but he played there a little in the AFL, some people wanted him to play there regularly earlier this season. It seemed like a bad idea then. But when you’re already eliminated in September, the best thing you can do is experiment and see what you have in younger, cost controlled players. I mean, Mark DeRosa “can” play 2B, but not well. And don’t forget, Murphy spent his minor league career as a roughly average defensive third baseman. I know second is harder, but still, third requires more skill and most significantly, more arm than first.
In terms of player valuation, there’s a +15 run value difference between 2B and 1B for every 150 games. So if you assume Murphy could have been the same type of offensive player at 2B as 1B, then he could have been about a -10 defensive 2B and been equally as valuable as 1B (since he was about +5 defensively at first). I don’t think he’d be a good second baseman, but I also don’t think it would be like trying to stick someone like Carlos Delgado at 2B, and that Murph could very likely wind up somewhere between -5 or -8, which would make him more valuable at 2B than 1B. Even if Murphy was a -10 UZR/150 2B, he’ll still likely be roughly as valuable as Luis Castillo moving forward, and for a fraction the price. But its not the kind of experiment you make in April, its one you make when nothing’s on the line, and unfortunately, the Mets had that opportunity in September and completely failed to take advantage.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Nov 10, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because Jerry failed
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 10, 2009 6:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously,
if I owned the Mets, there would be quite a few of you that I would definitely hire. Meddler would be at the top of my list. It sounds cheesy, but ever since the mlbtr days when I first came into contact with Meddler, I learned a WHOLE lot about player evaluation just from reading your comments. I was never a guy who bought into RBI’s and R’s, or even BA, from the time I was young I always questioned things and these things never made sense to me. Who cares about RBI’s and R’s, they are very reliant on somebody other then the individual you are trying to evaluate, so how would the be effective. Even as a youngster, I asked my dad (because I had been told by so many people that a walk was as good as a hit), if the point is to reach base, then why not use OBP? He started to answer me, then simply said, you know, you’re right.
But even knowing those things, I was very uneducated compared to some of the more intelligent fans, and just reading a lot of comments of some of you guys and other over the years has helped me learn a ton about this game.
To me, this is FAR and away the best sportsblog I have ever visited, and the average baseball IQ of the readers here is off the charts compared to any other Met centered blog. You guys really should be getting paid.
Between Meddler, James, Eric, Sam, squid92, and some of you I know I am leaving out, you guys are very enjoyabled to read. Even just the comments. I would rather read a 9 paragraph essay by Meddler then read a column by ANY professional sports writer out there. You guys deserve a lot of credit for just being incredibly smart baseball fans, who write well, and not only that, but come out with some of the funniest stuff I can imagine reading on the internet.
Just wanted to thank you all, I love reading everything here from normal stories to fanshots to fanposts. I can always count on something informative, along with a nice mix of sarcasm, and also some grit, and jsut wanted all you guys to know, even the commenters, I appreciate all of you for creating a place to discuss baseball rationally.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 11, 2009 3:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like it
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 9, 2009 8:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hey, what do you know, a potentially good trade!
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 8:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like it...IF
it’s part of larger plan that is designed to get rid of sinkholes on the team and replace those holes (RF, LF, 1B, 2B, C) with average or better production, while also adding at one of those positions an excellent hitter. Overbay against RHP for his career is around .850 and last year he was better than .900. With the right platoon partner 1b goes from a weakness to a strength. I find Castillo less objectionable than some, but removing him from the team removes a serious collapse candidate, something we need to do to improve our chances of contending in 2010.
Overbay is due $7 million versus $6 million per year for two years for Castillo, so this is essentially swapping the contract of a decent player whose one weakness can be hidden, for a below average player who may well become useless during the life of his contract—in 2010. It clears Castillo entirely off the books for 2011, and given that no one would, today, bid much of anything for Castillo’s 2011 that’s a damned good thing. Some of the success of this deal will depend on who we find to play 2B. Any rumors out there?
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 9, 2009 9:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Orlando Hudson's the obvious one
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 9, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if there have been any rumors
but Placido Polanco is a good player.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 9, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
correct
polanco is the right choice here. besides the fact that he’s probably better offensively, polanco is a good if not great defender at 2b while o-dawg’s D has fallen off a cliff in the last few years.
polanco got about $4M last year, he’ll probably get less due to his age (35) but i doubt he signs a 1yr deal. probably needs 2yrs at the least, which i’d probably do. 2yr/$7M is my highest offer. if not, go get hudson on a cheap 1yr deal.
by robcast23 on Nov 9, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Has O-dog's D fallen off lately??
Any numbers to back this up?
And I almost feel bad becuase another guy posted a similiar thread and I have 29 comments and he has zero. I’ll view this as thanks for my service to the Mets-ian community.
by Jsz on Nov 9, 2009 9:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
hudson's UZR's since 2004
04: 16.9
05: 8.2
06: -1.3
07: 0.5
08: -5.1
09: -3.3
he was once great, he isn’t anymore. in fact, he’s not too much better than castillo (-10.4 09 UZR). meanwhile placido polanco posted an 11.4 UZR in 2009.
by robcast23 on Nov 9, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, Placido Polanco chokes up all the way

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Nov 10, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Felix Millan?
He’s back?
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
by CharlieH on Nov 10, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, the onion
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Edgardo Alfonzo
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 9, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Teufel
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 10, 2009 6:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Woah
This is a solid deal for us if it can get done. I’d throw a C prospect in the mix if need be.
by njk237 on Nov 9, 2009 9:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to call bullshit
“The teams indeed have discussed the framework of such a deal, though not in direct fashion, according to major-league sources.”
How do teams discuss the framework of a deal without doing so in direct fashion? The lengths to which some columnists will go with their vacuous hot stove rhetoric to avoid saying anything of substance consistently amazes me.
Call me when the framework of such a deal is at least being discussed in direct fashion. This indirect fashion of framework discussion isn’t doing it for me.
by Eric Simon on Nov 9, 2009 10:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I will call your bullshit,
and raise you a no fucking way this deal gets done….
only because it’s too good to be true. As we all know by now, there isn’t ONE team out there that would make a deal to help the Mets.
by fxcarden on Nov 9, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why must you crush our hopes and dreams by being "rational" or "correct"
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because AA is the rational voice of Mets Nation?
That way, we are all ahead of everybody else, especially Metsmerized and Metsblog?
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
do you disagree?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all.
The amount of…delusion, lack of knowledge, or general…assholishness astounds me in places like that.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forget O-dog
If this deal happens i rather get Chone Figgins he can play 3rd,2nd and some outfield. Younger than both O-dog or Polanco, speedier can hit and will improve are defense which will make a big diffrence. I say sign Holliday , Chone, Lackey, make this trade, Torrealba and your choice of Harden or Bedard on an incentive laden deal.
by amzinsbucs fan on Nov 9, 2009 10:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But I’d be happy with any of the 3, Holliday, and someone like Harang, and then this Overbay trade. :)
I’m not hard to please.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins was never a very good 2B though
and I’m not sure he’d sign to play second either.
by Sam Page on Nov 9, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any idea who is looking for a 3B besides Philly
He would likely have to have some bad offers at 3B to consider switching to 2B. (I always thought Wright would be great at 2B—much better than at 3B, but only an A-Rod type signing would push him to 2B.)
by DoghouseBlues on Nov 10, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You know what this tells me?
That the offseason is officially here, when a ridiculous deal that has a -1000% percent chance of becoming reality is brought up.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 10:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
However, I would be very open to Overbay if true.
Either him or Konerko would help.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 10:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone else see Bill James's projection for Murphy?
It’s pretty close to Overbay’s wOBA projection (.348 vs. .354). And Murphy is the better fielder.
by EtSuKe on Nov 9, 2009 10:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I dunno about Murphy being a better fielder
Overbay is pretty slick over there at first. Let’s ask Keith! Keith?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tough call, Murph flashes a good glove
but tends to range too far from first trying to make plays and sometimes doesn’t get back in time. Defensively i dont complain about either. If James prediction could be verified i’d take murph cause he’s already here, but overbay might be the slightly safer choice.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Murphy a better trading chip
… younger, cheaper, “potential”? Though Overbay is in his contract year.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We have only a small sample on Murphy, but
Overbay is a career -0.4 UZR/150 at 1B and Murphy is a career (last season) 7.6 UZR/150 and career -4.5 UZR/150 in LF.
by EtSuKe on Nov 9, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Framework of a deal"
Equals “an anonymous scout said…”
by StorkFan on Nov 9, 2009 10:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Possible 4-way deal?
Someone on metsblog is citing a rumor out of Toronto that this might turn into a 4-way deal:
Mets get: Snyder (catcher from DBacks)
Jays get:Bradley
Cubs get: Castillo
D-Backs get: Overbay
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 10:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Scouting Report on Snyder
Assets
Calls a good game and rarely makes mistakes with the glove. Has a powerful throwing arm. With the bat, he possesses a nice mix of power and patience.
Flaws
Could stand to make better contact as a hitter. Behind the plate, his strong arm is not always accurate.
Career potential
A solid starting catcher
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not totally sold on snyder
but it does open up 2b and give us a serviceable catcher i suppose.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know too much about him
But there are other FA catchers available too. All this just to get rid of Castillo? Is Overbay much of an upgrade over Murphy? Isn’t Murphy more of a trading chip since at least he’s young and cheap with “potential”?
I dunno. I keep thinking we need to fix the starting rotation more than anything. But maybe a face lift all around is needed.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
overbay is a safer bet than murph
but not necessarily an upgrade. Getting rid of castillo is nice but i agree we could probably find better use for him in a trade given the plethora of available catchers on the market who are probably better than Snyder.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I think Zaun is older and a worse hitter.
by EtSuKe on Nov 9, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Zaun is old (38)
But he’s still pretty good and can be counted on for ~100 games a year. His wOBAs the past few seasons:
2009 – .334
2008 – .316
2007 – .324
2006 – .351
I actually like Snyder but he’s set to make $5.25 mil per year from 2010-2011. I’d rather go 1 year on Zaun for $3 mil or so.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 9, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yorvit ... again?
I actually like what I saw from him in the playoffs … got a little grit in him.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just threw up in my mouth
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I hate to break the news to you, but it IS rumored.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, no...Torrealba isn't the bad part.
it’s the “grit” that made me somewhat nauseous.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
out of curiosity did Bill Simmons invent that expression
That was where I first heard it (maybe about 5 years ago), and he says that A LOT. Did anyone hear it before then?
by DoghouseBlues on Nov 10, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I heard it long before that
we used to say it in high school, in the late 90’s. Unless someone from my HS was reading Simmons’ “Boston Sports Guy” website at the time (which I doubt), I don’t think that’s where it comes from.
But you’re right, he does use it a lot.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 10, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe, but i still really dislike the idea of Snyder as our catcher
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Snyder
he was unlucky this year with a ~.240 BABIP (usually around .280) takes his walks, not sure how he is behind the plate, but I’d love him as our catcher
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is, until Holy Thole is ready
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Snyder is righty
He’d be a solid backup.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good arm, bad accuracy is the scouting report
and calls a good game apparently. His bat is just not very good, he just draws a lot of walks.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
walking is part of batting
and it adds up to an about league average bat at catcher
by EtSuKe on Nov 9, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i suppose
he just doesnt impress me, but if it gets rid of castillo and opens up second for polanco im all for it.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why stop at 4?
I’m holding out for the 30 team trade
by StorkFan on Nov 9, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know how that one would fare out.
Mets get Kevin Youkilis
Red Sox get Derek Jeter
Yankees get Chase Utley
Phillies get Ichiro
Mariners get Russell Martin
Dodgers get Jorge Cantu
Marlins get Derek Lowe
Braves get Curtis Granderson
Tigers get Joakim Soira
Royals get AJ Pierszynski
White Sox get Lastings Milledge
Pirates get Pat Burrell
Rays get Hunter Pence
Astros get Ryan Braun
Brewers get Matt Cain
Giants get Albert Pujols
Cardinals get Josh Hamilton
Rangers get Joey Votto
Reds get Ryan Zimmerman
Nationals get Yorvit Torrealba
Rockies get Jack Cust
A’s get Jeff Mathis
Angels get Milton Bradley
Cubs get Nick Markakis
O’s get Lyle Overbay
Blue Jays get Nick Punto
Twins get Shin-Soo Choo
Indians get Eric Byrnes
Diamondbacks get Heath Bell
Padres get Luis Castillo
How bout that?
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
whaaa
I want Lastings Milledge.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I want a million dollars and Marisa Miller to be my wife.
Not gonna happen though, is it?
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not with an attitude like that its not
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well if that's the way you look at it, it won't.
Try being more self confident, assert yourself more, take chances and maybe, just maybe, you’ll be rich and banging Marisa Miller.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I appreciate your advice (not that I have any problems with that)
you’re missing my point.
Point being: You can’t always have what you want.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but if you try some times, you might find,
you get what you need
you just have to need it more!
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was gonna post that!
we thinks alike
Stones are awesome
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, she'd have to get divorced.
But that’s probably the most likely part of this equation.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 9, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But what about...extortion?
On second thought, NAH! That would cause too much problems.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just Lastings?
if all those guys are getting traded, I want Votto and Mathis and Utley and Bell
by JoshNY on Nov 10, 2009 9:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Derek Bell? The rotation could use a bolstering...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and the Mets just don't have enough players living in boats these days
by JoshNY on Nov 10, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That too.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
You just made my night.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for that.
Took me a while to figure this out, so it better have made yer night :)
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Somehow I think the Mets would end up with Yuniesky Betancourt
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly, the majority of us would not be surprised.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we already ended up with Jeff Francouer.
I would have thrown that one is as the butt of one of these jokes 6 months ago.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No Francoeur took me by surprise.
Betancourt, meanwhile, would seem like an Omar guy, and thus, getting him would be an Omar move. Trust me, it’s an Omar thing. You’d never understand.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We riot if he acquires Betancourt.
That’s the straw that breaks our back. At least Francoeur’s got power. Betancourt doesn’t do anything.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 9, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not even as the popcorn guy?
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He has a unique name
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps we could combine him with Omir and create...
OMIRSKY SANTONCOURT
GANGSTA!!!!11
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Omirsky Santoncourt

He must come from the same neighborhood as Vladamir Guerrero.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dear Lord, this is actually worse than I thought.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He kinda looks a little like Tony Gwynn, actually.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is what would happen if
Tony Gwynn and the Stay Puf Marshmallow Man had a child together.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a good thing the two never met
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey ...
It beat talking about the Knicks. Trust me.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck basketball.
It’s only good when there’s gambling involved. Sadly I have to wait about 4 months from now for that to happen (a.k.a. March).
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
poor Nationals...
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 9, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
has this trade been discussed in a direct fashion?
by Mount17 on Nov 9, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What KM said.
WE make the decisions here. Don’t like it? Perhaps you can take it up with Mr. Laser.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can we get Pujols instead of Youkilis?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 10, 2009 6:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But it breaks the circle?
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 11, 2009 8:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great job putting this one together.
But some questionable choices: Why would the Indians give up Choo to get Byrnes? And why would the Orioles give up Markakis in order to get Overbay?
by Bobby Baseball on Nov 10, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I, for one, do not know either.
This is just for fooling around and not to be taken seriously.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
helps everone
cray but i like it e-mail it to the GM mettings
by dbkoob on Nov 16, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like that better, I think.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Turning it into a four-way? Things keep getting kinkier and kinkier.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what if .... ?
Reyes
Hudson
Wright
Holliday
Beltran
F-Core
Murph/Overbay
Molina/Barajas/Olivo/Santos
P (Santana, Lackey, Wolf, Pelfrey, Maine/Ollie)
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Or
maybe jason marquis instead of wolf? and
maybe ramon hernandez instead of benji molina?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I greatly fear we're going to give Marquis too much after a good year
and i still stand by my statement that the Mets will end up signing garland, i just have a gut feeling itll happen
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you like Garland?
I think I’d rather have Marquis … he at least still throws in the low 90s. Garland on a good day will maybe reach 90.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think i'd take Garland over Marquis
but both come with considerable risk
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Garland is dependable
he’s one of those guys that will give you 200 innings of 4.50 ERA, and about 4.5 FIP
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 10, 2009 6:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ahh, comment fail
while Marquis, well this was his first good season in a while. And look what the Mets did with Oliver Perez.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 10, 2009 6:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thats why id prefer garland, he's not spectacular but he's trustworthy
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 10, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would we want either one of these guys?
Between Maine, Niese, and Perez, there are already 3 candidates for for the 4/5 spots. All we need is a number 2 starter.
As for Ollie, I know he was terrible and I know the contract sucks, but I think he will come back and at least pitch like a solid back end guy. The WBC really messed him up, I still believe that no ML pitcher should ever participate in that disaster. Almost all the pitchers who pitch suffer in the games that matter. You know, not some stupid exhibition games that they try to play off like the olympics.
Ollies velocity will be back up this year again, and he will be better. Maybe this is the year he turns into Sandy :)
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
im not saying we want either
im saying i have a feeling we’ll get garland
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 10, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope we don't go after Marquis. He had a career year in a meh career, and we have enough pitches like that
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lackey, Holliday, Wolf, Hudson, and Molina?
What’s the payroll 200MM? I at least 2 of those contracts would end up as total disasters.
by Sam Page on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Molina's absolutely a disaster.
And yes, either Wolf or Lackey will be a disaster, and Hudson is not solid either. The only contract I have no qualms about is, obviously, Holliday.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i absolutely think Hudson is a mistake
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's going to get the largest contract of the 2Bs
even though I don’t really think he’s better than Polanco or Lopez.
Ooh, and this is sort of out of nowhere, but I’d love me some Kiko Calero.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Placido!!
Very solid.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
could be a good gamble on Calero
and his name is fun to say, so bonus points there. Hudson is going to cost way more than he’s worth in this free agent pool on name recognition.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, maybe
Look what happened to him this year. He could be had for relatively cheap depending on how the market plays out.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Molina (2009): 20 HR; 80 RBIs; .264 ave.
on a weak hitting SF team.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sub .300 OBP
We already have Francoeur we don’t need another one
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's also the slowest runner in the league
Absolutely kills you on the basepaths the few times he’s actually on base
by James Kannengieser on Nov 9, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thats why his low OBP is so awesome
don’t have to worry about him being in the way
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never thought of it like that
I’m intrigued
by James Kannengieser on Nov 9, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as Jason Stark would say
that seems logical
by EtSuKe on Nov 9, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he doesn't clog the bases
cause he’s never on
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 10, 2009 6:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the way you think sir...
And i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
by Asawisemansaid on Nov 9, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This Comment is Dusty Baker Approved ©
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Molina (Career): .312 wOBA, slowest player in the majors.
Fact.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Batting cleanup
That’s reason #234 why RBI are worthless – a bad hitter can pick up a bunch batting in the right spot.
by Mount17 on Nov 9, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Delgado's $16 million comes off the books
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that won't even cover Holliday+Molina
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 9, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey .... then let the Wilpons spend some money
Don’t we deserve it?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Nov 9, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That won't even cover Holliday
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This thread is moving like a game thread
only with optimism instead of crippling fear.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 9, 2009 11:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The latter of which it will regress to as the days pass and nothing happens.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that depends on how many anonymous sources we have this year
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Over/under for how many said anonymous sources are scouts
Starting number is 9.
I say “OVER”.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
under
most are probably just random homeless people they polled at lunch.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 9, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, that would have to be over then.
There are hundreds of them down at the Soup Kitchen near Bleeker Street.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 9, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Easier to be optimistic
when they’re not actually playing (sorry, response s/b here)
by StorkFan on Nov 9, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Easier to be optimistic
when they’re not actually playing.
by StorkFan on Nov 9, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
our GM is Omar
there’s definitely some crippling fear too
by JoshNY on Nov 10, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing that could ake this trade that will never happen perfect
Is if we could toss in Ollie and his contract.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 9, 2009 11:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and get Halladay thrown in
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 9, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and every World Series retrospective to 1990
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As expected, another rumor saying Toronto wants no part of Bradley and this deal is bogus
Link. This hot stove is sillyness. Not sure I can handle it this offseason.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 10, 2009 12:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Next Rumor:
Milton Bradley to be traded for the Parker Brothers
by StorkFan on Nov 10, 2009 12:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
throw coco crisp in there
so many great hilarious names
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 10, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a Trivial Pursuit to me
sorry,, just couldn’t help that one
by StorkFan on Nov 10, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We've been done this road before, man. Get a Clue.
Sorry, man, but you it just Boggles my Cranium how wrong you are here. Really, having a bad second baseman and a clubhouse cancer is really just comparing Apples to Apples. It’s just that I can’t imagine taking a Risk on a player like Milton Bradley. Throughout his entire Life, the guy’s been nothing but Trouble. But don’t worry, I trust Omar to Go with his gut and make another trade that will cement him as a front office Mastermind.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Omar can pass go, but he must not collect 200 dollars.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Three way deal
Milton Bradley goes to one team, Fisher Price goes to the other, and the Parker Brothers go to Milton’s old team.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Fisher Price the redneck brother of David Price?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure about that one.
We’ll have to resort to the DNA tests to prove it.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where does Coco Crisp fit into all of this?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade him straight up for a box of Lucky Charms.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Three cereal trade.
I give you my Coco Crisp, you give BDMF your Lucky Charms, and he gives me his Cap’n Crunch. Deal?
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go for it,.
The Cap’n brings a veteran presence that other cereals can’t bring, but he’s on the decline, and his back-page scandal with the soggies caused problems in the clubhouse.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't use milk with my cereals anyway, so I could care less.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Throw in a packet of oatmeal and we're good to go.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cinnamon bun flavor, right?
If so, we got a deal!
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Best trade this off-season, by far.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 10, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My new player leads the three in CORP
Carbohydrates over Replacement Player.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mine leads in Peripheral Earned Fat Average
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 10, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got...the luck of the Irish? Crap.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Livan Hernandez?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 11, 2009 6:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Livan might not have spent a lot of time with the team, but we'll remember him fondly for a long, long time...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 11, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh for sure (snicker)
But if he ever comes round here again, I’m hiding all the Double Stuf Oreos.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Nov 11, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
theres so much to remember
no … literally, the memories may be a lot, but the memory to mass ratio is actually fairly small.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 11, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do y'all suppose Omar has had a revelation?
and figured out the best way to help the club in 2010 is not so much to chase stars but rather to eliminate weaknesses?
If Beltran, Reyes, Wright, and Santana put it back together again in 2010 (and if they can’t then nothing Omar does will matter) then curing Catcher, 2b, 1b, one OF spot, and one rotation spot by getting league average production at each with some upside might just be the answer.
’Course, curing RF involved Francoeur, so maybe a “nevermind” is in order.
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 10, 2009 12:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
This rumor was shot down on MLBTR...
but is anybody honestly that excited about some big trade that the end result is getting a mediocre defensive 1B who has posted anywhere from a .310 to a .360 wOBA in the last 3 years, and opening up space to make a lateral move (okay, its a sliiiiiiiiiight upgrade) at second base where we will probably overpay (I could honestly see the Mets giving Hudson the same 4 year deal they gave Luis, essentially rewinding Luis contract back to awfulness)?
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 12:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I'm wrong, but it's tough to find 5 new league-average players in one off-season
without overpaying with prospects, overpaying free agents (in terms of years, cash or draft picks), or breaking the budget.
by DoghouseBlues on Nov 10, 2009 1:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tough, yes, but with 30 million available, not at all impossible.
Jason Marquis was offered to the Mets for free last season. His salary: 7 million
Overbay’s contract replaces Castillo’s. Cost in 2010: 1 million
Greg Zaun wasn’t even renewed for 2 million
Let’s give Hudson a raise over last season: 5 million
That leaves 15 million for an OF corner.
So, of course the possibilites are going to different this year, but figuring Overbay for Castillo combined w last year’s options and salaries it’s very doable.
Heck, sign Cameron at 2/20 for CF, move Beltran to LF, put Pagan in RF and you’ve got three CFers in a flyball pitcher’s ballpark and enough money left over to take a flyer on a flyball pitcher who’s an injury risk.
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 10, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, and all I want for Christmas is for Omar to non-tender Francouer.
And for the Wilpons to hire AA as the new GM. Ted Berg should also be given a prominent role, and we also would need to find a top executive to handle day-to-day operations. I’m sure AA could figure out the details.
by DoghouseBlues on Nov 10, 2009 3:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would sign Holliday
give Murph and Evans a shot to handle first, just leave Luis at 2B, let Pagan and Colonel Mustard (thats frenchie lol, my buddy called hm Col. Mustard and I love it) share RF, and sign a guy like Zaun or Barajas for one year just to split time with Thole and hopefully we will get an idea if he is the future by this time next year. I know you guys have talked about it a ton here, but Aaron Harang, to me, is absolutely the guy to fill our number 2 spot. Niese can fill the last spot and Maine can go to the bullpen.
I think that is a reasonable winter, sign Holliday, a stop gap catcher, and trade for Harang. Maybe an upside guy like Duchscherer to pitch out of the pen, who is also capable of starting. Kiko Calero is another guy I like for the pen. Maybe bring Putz back if you the value is there. Chan Ho Park, round 2?
The end product could look like this….
Reyes
Castillo
Holliday
Beltran
Wright (always loved when he hit 5th. With Holliday and Beltran 3 and 4, it is more reasonable.)
Murph/Evans
French/Pagan
Barajas or Zaun/Thole… I would love to trade for Chris Snyder also, if he is available cheap
Bench: Murph/Evans, French/Pagan, Tatis, Catcher, a big lefty with some pop, a Brad Nelson or Laynce Nix type, and then a Wilson Valdez to play the infield.
Johan
Harang
Pelfrey
Perez
Niese
Stokes
Feliciano
Duchscherer
Calero
Maine
K-Rod
I don’t know, something like that. I don’t really know about the pen, didn’t think about it a lot, but it seems reasonable. I know the lineup isn’t great, but it should for the most part, be a very solid defensive team, with slightly above average pitching and offense, maybe more, depending on if Pelf progresses on the last two solid years, or if he starts to plateau. I also think Murphy is a much better hitter then he was in 2009. I think he will at least be league average. What do you guys think?
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not enamored with Duchscherer
A pitcher coming off of an injury and clinical depression? Yeah, that’s a buy-low candidate, but also a potential recipe for disaster. Oakland doesn’t have the vicious media and sports talk radio NYC does. I don’t want to stigmatize anyone with mental illness, but this is the kind of environment that would definitely not be conducive to Duchscherer’s mental health. Once the fans turn on him, it could get pretty ugly.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 10, 2009 2:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Recipe for disaster? Maybe, it could also be a recipe for a guy
that has a career tRA of 4.24 and a career FIP under 4. If it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t work out. But to never try because the fans might be mean to him? I didn’t know he had mental health issues, but it wouldn’t stop me from rolling the dice. All depends on the price. As for Stokes, I don’t care about him, I never liked him to begin with, I just thought he was liked around here. Replace him with whatever RP, you liked, the BP was the one area I didn’t really think about, just kinda thought of some names off the top of my head.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 2:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Harang can't be our main SP pickup
If you look at Harang’s BaseballReference.com page the three segments of his career jump out. His so-so 2002-2004, his nifty 2005-2007 peak, and his weak 2008-2009. Harang is nowhere near the pitcher he once was, there’s no indication he’ll return to his peak starting next year at age 32, and his durability is disappearing. And he gets paid way too much for his current production. I’d rather have Jason Marquis, to be blunt about it.
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 10, 2009 4:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for telling me that.
I now realize I wasted a lot of time discussing baseball with you, and I will be sure not to do that again. Jason Marquis over Aaron Harang? Yeah, and I want Jeff Franceour over Matt Holliday, to be blunt idiotic about it.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
woah, woah, easy there, pal
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 11, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was kind of a dick. I was in a pissy mood before, so I apologize for that.
However, if you shoot down my Harang idea and then tell me he isn’t good anymore and we should get Marquis, you will get a mega saracastic remark from me other time. I know they say sarcasm is a crutch for the weak, but I sure do love it.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 11, 2009 3:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
every time, not other time.
I’ll just go fuck myself.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 11, 2009 3:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you about that.
Harang’s mah boy.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 11, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Woah
calm down
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 11, 2009 6:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather we avoid Marquis.
He’s 31 and coming off a career year (4.10 FIP vs. 4.82 career, 2.03 GB/FB vs. 1.57 career), and he’s got a terrible K rate to boot. He might be able to survive in Citi, given its dimensions, but I don’t want to find out. Maybe he finally learned to keep the ball down, but I’m suspicious of any player that age who has his best season yet in a career year. Someone will certainly overpay based on his 2009, but it shouldn’t be us.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 10, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Harang's not a good pitcher any longer.
He’s very different now than what he was prior to 2008. If that’s your rotation upgrade you have Johan, Pelfrey, and three guys who are solid bets to be below average. Don’t sell Maine short, either. He’s a good bet to have 120-150 innings of 4.50 or lower in him for 2010, and with a very thin rotation that could be very important.
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 10, 2009 1:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I totally disagree.
The thing is, he isn’t all that different, besides the ERA. That’s why he is a good buy-low candidate. He is better then any pitcher that is a free agent, and it sounds like he’s available. I’d much rather trade for Harang then sign Lackey.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your privilege, of course, but
even his non ERA stats show three distinct phases to Harang’s career. At BaseballReference’s Harang’s page look at the difference between Harang’s peak, and his before and after numbers.
2002-2004
2005-2007 – peak
2008-2009
His WHIP is about two per nine LOWER during his peak of 2005-2007. His hits allowed per nine innings has been particularly poor, and noticeably different, in 2008-2009.
His IP is much higher during his three year peak.
His HR/9 in 2008 and 2009 are very poor, among the worst in the majors.
His BB/9 are slightly worse, his K/9 slightly lower.
Combine all those things and you have an entirely different pitcher in the last two years.
Harang isn’t worth all that much, and only then at the back of the rotation, where he’s unlikely to get close to 200 innings. I don’t mind having him on the Mets, but not as their primary SP offseason pickup, and not at a price near the $14mil he received last year.
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 10, 2009 3:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm too lazy to look at the numbers
but I’m pretty sure I remember seeing Harang’s xFIPs being consistent the last few year, (I think it was under 4 this year, his FIP was right at 4) and His BABIP was higher than usual this year. I’ll take Harang, I think he had a down year last year and an unlucky one this year. If we could get him for a few minor leaguers, like Lutz and/or Moviel, I think it would be an absolute steal.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2009 6:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what ERA is, or WHIP
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wait what?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Nov 11, 2009 6:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm assuming thats a clever comment about how useless these stats actually are.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 11, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WHIP is useless?
that’s news to me
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Nov 11, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not useless.
Just sort of uninformative.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 11, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
its kind of a generic stat because it piles multiple stats which can be independently analyzed into a single aggregate stat
I’d rather look at hits and walks separately since walks are a function of the pitcher but hits are a function of the defense behind the pitcher as well as the pitcher.
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 11, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about Holliday, Wolf, and Penny?
That’s what MLB Trade Rumors is forecasting. 6/100 for Holliday, 3/30 for Wolf, and 1/? for Penny. That’s an offseason I could live with as long as we also upgrade Catcher and at least one of 1B or 2B. If Overbay + ODog replace Castillo that adds a little over 40 million total to the payroll. If I’m the Wilpons I do it—hell, after the fiasco of the first year in a brand new, taxpayer gift of a ballpark, I’d be happy to do it and happy I haven’t been lynched yet.
Depending on cost I’d rather sign Jason Marquis than Penny. If Maine puts up 125 innings with an ERA of 4.50 and Figgy fills in around the edges that’s a rotation with a very respectable chance of being average or above top to bottom.
by SeanSchirmer on Nov 10, 2009 5:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Whenever I start to get optimistic about this trade happening
I remember that our GM currently has Daniel Murphy and Jeff Francouer penciled in as locks for starting roles in power hitting positions.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 8:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Honestly though, I'd rather have Murphy for the minimum then OVerbay for 7 million.
Overbay was much better last year, but it isn’t like he is guaranteed to be a .360 wOBA guy again. I think Murph will at least be LA as a hitter this year, with a solid glove. If they bring in Holliday, I can live with that and save the 7 million. I also don’t see Hudson over Luis as an upgrade worth making when there is so much else going on.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Murphy
you mean league average as in ~100 OPS+ or league average as in average for a first baseman?
by JoshNY on Nov 10, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he might be a bit below average for a first baseman offensively.
Though I think he is capable of being an .800 OPS guy. 280/350/440, something like that with very solid defense. I don’t know what happened to Murphy. Where did his plate discipline go? Still though, I wouldn’t mind at least giving him another shot, maybe as a platoon partner with Evans. Again though, this is all assuming they bring in Holliday. It really would be nice if French wasn’t basically plugged into RF already. I’m not ready to give up on Murphy yet though. I understand that you can’t live with another year like 2009, so it’s a fine line between letting him have another shot without hurting the team, but I would like if between Carter, Murphy and Evans, and possibly Ike Davis in the second half, we could fill 1B internally and spend money elsewhere.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is tough, because I just don't know what to think of Murph. I don't know what to expect at all from him.
If he didn’t do what he did in 2008, I wouldn’t even care about him, but for some reason I think we have a good player in Murph. If he regains the plate discipline we thought he would have, he will be fine. I do agree though, it is a tough decision what to do at first. I wouldn’t be at all against just bringing back Delgado.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand where you're coming from.
But don’t you think this sort of, “well, he showed flashes of being good in short stretches, if he could do this and improve that, he’d be solid” thinking is what landed us the Once and Future Sandy Koufax himself?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Nov 10, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I do agree.
Only because Murphy is already here, for the minimum. I would like to give Murphy a shot with a reasonable backup plan, I just don’t really know how to do that. It’s a tough decision. I just don’t know that Lyle is the answer. He was solid last year, pretty average in 2008, and terrible in 2007.
"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez
by nrmax88 on Nov 10, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please make this deal.
Please.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
by CharlieH on Nov 10, 2009 11:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs


















