Outfielder Valuation and Mike Cameron
With all the talk of Jason Bay floating around, and specifically comparing him to Mike Cameron, I thought now would be a good time to discuss methods of outfielder valuation. When we talk about valuing players, we often talk about positional adjustments, which per 150 games are typically interpreted in this way:
C: +12.5 runs
SS: +7.5
2B/3B/CF: +2.5
RF/LF: -7.5
1B: -12.5
DH: -17.5
Regarding the infield, this is particularly important, since different skillsets are required to defense different infield positions. Because of this, we can interpret the values of different infielders at different positions as fixed to the position they play. Even if their offensive value remains the same at a different position, their value relative to the defensive average will vary widely from position to position in completely different ways for different players, depending on what defensive skills they have. Long wingspan and quick reactions will play well at first base and third base. A strong arm will play well at third base and shortstop. First step quickness and ability to stay low to the ground will play well at shortstop and second base. The ability to take hard slides will play better at second base. Moving a quality defensive Shortstop to first base, you wouldn't likely get enough extra defensive production to make up for the difference in the baseline positional values, and the same is true vice versa.
The outfield, however, is a completely different story. In the outfield, skillsets generally translate well position to position. There really isn't anything technically different a right fielder does than a left fielder, or even from a center fielder. There are some nuances that are different, a ball hit to left or right field generally travels differently than a ball hit straight. Right fielders have longer throws to make. But neither of these things even come close to accounting for the primary aspects of defensive value for outfielders. Research done by Tom Tango using 2007 and 2008 UZR data supports this assumption. By comparing players who have played multiple outfield positions, he has determined that players switching between a corner outfield spot and center field usually gain or lose about 11 runs compared to average. This suggests that the average defensive corner outfielder is worth roughly 11 runs less than the average defensive center fielder, and further that moving a center fielder to a corner spot, his UZR numbers would be expected to increase by about 11 runs over a full season. This 11 run mark is very similar to the 10 run difference in positional adjustments that we make when evaluating a center fielder against a corner outfielder. And what it means in most cases, except for the very extreme ones where a player's skillset would diminish his value in a different position (Think Jack Cust in centerfield), is that an outfielders total value is going to be roughly the same in a corner outfield position as compared to center field.
One of the problems with applying this conclusion to Mike Cameron is that at first glance, he seems not to fit the model. He did play one full season in a corner outfield spot, and many of us remember it well as the year Carlos Voltron usurped his center field position, where "Cammy" had been oh-so-stellar through most of his career. His UZR in right field actually decreased from the marks he'd been putting up prior, and his career UZR/150 is lower in right field than in center field. There are some problems with this type of analysis though. First, there is no UZR data prior to 2002, Cameron's age 29 season. Intuitively, adding this hypothetical "missing data" you might say that it would probably bring his career UZR/150 in center field up, only enhancing the separation. But if we assume that prior to 2002 Cameron had been an elite center fielder, in line with much of the UZR data we have as well as his reputation, it does look like there's an actual drop-off in his production right before 2005. Rather than providing elite defense in center in 2004, he was merely decent. He had a 4.0 UZR in 135 games, which is his career low up until that point using the data available, and could have very well been his career low up until that point if there was data available prior to 2002. And then, when Cameron returned to center field after being traded away by the Mets in 2006, his UZR fell to -0.1 in 141 games, and the following year all the way to -10.2 in 150 games. Its bounced back in the two seasons since to the elite level it was at prior to 2004, but it does look like Cameron may have just gone through a sustained period of his career where his defense simply wasn't as good as its been at other times. In fact, if you tally up his UZR in the roughly 430 games he played in center field from 2004-2007, his UZR/150 mark is -2.25. While that may not be a 10 run difference from his 1.9 UZR mark from 2005 in RF, it is much more consistent looking with Tango's results than just looking at Cameron's career scope, and it also falls within the realm of a typical normal distribution swing given the sample sizes we're dealing with. In addition, -1.4 of Cameron's right field UZR mark comes from a career worst ErrR, which is at least as likely to be a small sample size aberration as a representation of an actual skill difference, if not moreso.
If the opportunity cost of signing Jason Bay is a much less expensive deal that entails a shorter commitment to Mike Cameron, signing Bay is probably a mistake. It may very well be that Cameron doesn't want to come back to New York, or would prefer to continue to play center field. But if he's willing to consider a reunion with his former New York club, its an avenue the front office must explore. If you assume his value doesn't change much between CF and RF/LF, he projects very similarly to Bay in the short term and should absolutely be an option for a team that's had such a hard time finding valuable corner outfielders over the last few years. The money saved with Cameron could be used on numerous and necessary fixes to a roster filled with holes, both in the immediate short term and down the road, when Bay is less likely to be worth the value of whatever contract he gets.
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Exactly.
Bay’s WAR is surprisingly ordinary, given the spin that he’s one of the top FA’s in this year’s class. 2003 to date:
1.1, 2.2, 6.4, 5.5, 0.1, 2.9, 3.5
Bay peaked around when you’d expect, had the dreadful 2007, and seems to have settled into the 3 WAR neighborhood. He’s more or less the same hitter he was in 2005 and 2006, not quite as good but in the same neighborhood. It’s his now very poor fielding that has halved his value. That and the fact that he played a little CF in Pittsburgh boosted his value a tick.
This contract has an excellent chance of being a serious mistake for the Mets. Even if he repeats his best post-2005/2006 year for each of the next four years he’s barely worth the 4/65 the Mets are reported to have offered Bay. ontract, and if he slips any more on defense, tweaks his knee in May, something, anything, there’s no DH spot in which to hide him. One common, sound yardstick for any contract is, if at best you’ll get what you paid for and at worst you’ll get nothing, that’s a bad contract. That would be like going to Las Vegas and putting down a bet where, if you’re lucky, you get your money back—if you’re unlucky you lose some or all of your wager.
Where’s the percentage in that?
rec'd
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
nice job
While I might question some of the assumptions about Cameron’s defense, the bottom line is he is only a little bit less valuable than Bay and yet is much much cheaper. Signing him and Holliday at 85-90 M and jettionsing Francour would make a hell of an outfield. Add Chavez as a fourth OF and the offense is set. Of course the Mets won’t even come close to doing anything like this .
Wow. Nice!
I admire the ambition. Most of us are settling for one of Holliday and Bay, with the live possibility of neither. If each plays to his projection I wonder how many OFs in history have been better. Not too many, I think.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 12, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
my only comment
is that, for some of the reasons Meddler mentions, the frenzy here around Bay vs. Cameron strikes me as odd, even false choice. What makes anyone think Mike would come back to the same situation where management put him in an untenable situation after signing him to be ‘the’ CF and he got his brains bashed in, given a choice? If people want to make the very reasonable argument that these particular Mets should go cheaper in the left corner spot, why not younger too? Is it impossible to see Cameron’s aging wheels having an impact on his elite fielding status similar to worries about Beltran? It seems like the effort spent driving Bay into the ground bc he’s not Holliday would be better spent doing some paperwork on other way! cheaper options, not that I intend to provide them.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
Yeah, the problem is more that the FO hasn't even so much as whispered interest in Cameron
And I’m not entirely opposed to Bay, it was really meant as a reaction to the poll last night that last I checked, Bay was winning. If either Bay makes less money than that or Cameron outright rejects the Mets, I think he’s a better option than I’ve made him seem here.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 11, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see it as a frenzy so much as introducing a strong alternative to Bay.
Given that, you’re right that Cameron simply may not want to come back to the Mets, one of Cameron or Beltran may not want to play a corner, and that third (and fourth) choices haven’t been looked at much (though I’ll compare the Mets to a man who’s been hit by massive gunfire. It’s hard to know which bullet wound to investigate first).
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 12, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
Cameron
A couple added points:
1. Cameron’s defensive dropoff for a couple of seasons from 2005-2007 might also be partly related to the concussion in 2005.
2. While in the long run, a position switch in the outfield should result in a difference near to the positional adjustment, I would imagine there is an initial adjustment period where the difference might be greater (getting used to the slice on the ball, for example). I wouldn’t assume instant results when shifting a guy to a position he hasn’t played before, even if he clearly has the tools to play it. If Cameron had another 100 games in a corner spot, he’d probably be well above average.
3. If Cameron is really a target, they should maybe consider keeping him in CF and moving Beltran, if Beltran’s knees are really in that bad shape.
Yeah, I thought of all three
Its tough to say his defensive dropoff was concussion related, since he bottomed out in 2007, but its certainly possible, and even more, possible that the stimulants he was taking for post concussion syndrome had some effect.
The second point is very valid, as is the third.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 11, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
I just recall
he wasn’t all that great as a Met. I know the eyes deceive, but he didn’t look that great in cf or rf. I was shocked he had a great fielding rep. And he was bad in SD too but he seems to have bounced back.
Of his 3 sub 4 WARs since 2002, 2 were his 2 years as a Met. And I know, he got hurt. Met rightfielders and concussions.
He is a good player and likely better, even now, then what he had a chance to show in NY the last time. Weren’t the best years of his life though, i imagine.
Also, in regard to the short term adjustments
I don’t have any data to back this up, but just intuitively it would stand to reason that the research Tango did involved more players whose “natural” position was CF than players whose “natural” position was a corner. This is because of the way teams do value defense, generally in a highly risk averse way in regard to putting players at different positions. Except in special situations, when there’s a better defensive option, that option plays the more important defensive position, and established every-day players generally stay at one position, even in the outfield. So in the outfield, the reasons you do see some positional shuffling include:
1. Young players trying to crack a roster of established players. In this case, minor league players players, especially outfielders, will usually play the most important defensive position they are capable of. Fernando Martinez and Carlos Gomez are examples of players who spent most of their minor league careers playing Center, but then would often be asked to play alternate positions when they reached the majors, and one is also clearly far superior than the other. There’s no real counter to this, where young players who played a corner position in the minors wind up playing up the middle in the majors except in very unique circumstances. Fernando Martinez may wind up with more career games in a corner than in center, but that’s certainly not the position he’s most familiar with now.
2. Bench players who are “natural” center fielders are much more likely to be used at all three outfield positions than natural corner guys. A lot of times these guys will have already spent enough of their careers playing multiple positions to make whatever adjustments they’re going to make, but the majority of their professional career has probably been spent in center by default, where their defense can be leveraged better in the short-term.
What this probably means is that Tango’s research was more weighted towards CFs going to a corner than vice versa. So the nature of the study both accounted for the necessary adjustments to a degree and weighted the change much more heavily in one direction than the other. The value of an average defensive corner outfielder may actually be more than 11 runs less than an average center fielder, since we’re talking here partly about natural center fielders who are making the adjustments, when there are adjustments made, being compared to natural corner outfielders rather than vice versa. And the results may only go one way too, not both, since the data set of guys who are more used to playing a corner switching to center is likely much smaller. If there was a way to study just corner outfielders playing center, which would probably take many years worth of data and a much larger variety of players, the results might be different.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 12, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much a nice summation of everything we all argue for.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Agreed, but unrealistic.
Let’s face it:
1) He’s more valuable in CF, and will likely get more as a FA if he goes to a team which needs a CF.
2) The rank-and-file Mets fan will see a Cameron signing as a bad/weak move, while Bay may actually sell tickets.
3a) He’ll cost enough to preclude the signing of a guy like Lackey, which is the only reason why the short-term savings make sense and;
3b) Omar doesn’t have much of a long-term left, so I doubt he’s worrying about that.
The point was kind of that he's at least close to equally as valuable in a corner
The second point is valid from a purely economic standpoint, so I’ll take that, but is Bay really that huge a ticket seller? More than Cameron, no doubt, but he’s a low profile slugger, while Holliday is a bonafide superstar who would appeal to a much greater number just by virtue of the fact that he’s good at so many more things. The marginal marketability difference between Holliday and Bay is probably greater than between Bay and Cameron.
I’m not sure 3a is true, it depends what the budget is, and even if it precludes Lackey, Cameron might leave room for a guy like Harang or Arroyo while Bay might not, if such restrictions exist. I hope 3b is true, but even still, if there is a better way to leverage the $5 or $6 million you save with Cameron, he should absolutely be all about it if he’s on the brink like that.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 11, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions




























