The Phillies Trade Cliff Lee for Roy Halladay: "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
by Sam Page on Dec 14, 2009 4:22 PM EST
Email
PrintIf early reports from Jon Heyman are to be believed, the Phillies have sent Cliff Lee to the Mariners and received Roy Halladay from the Blue Jays, potentially losing a prospect or two in the process. The Mets are going to get murdered by the ravenous Bill Madden-led New York press for sitting idly by while the Phillies acquire arguably the games' best pitcher. Some Mets fans are going to wave the white flag.
In reality, this move is pretty lateral for the Phillies. They traded a 6-WAR pitcher for a 7-WAR pitcher, with the net-gain likely to be even less than 10 runs. While this move may prove to be a better long-term decision, if they can get Halladay extended, in 2010 it isn't checkmate for the N.L. East. Interestingly, the Mets likely overreaction counter-move might end up being a bigger splash in terms of pure talent added to the 2010 squad. Knowing the Mets, that could be at the cost of a potentially debilitating contract. Luckily, though, the most obvious target to overpay, John Lackey, is freshly off the market. Lackey is a nice pitcher, no doubt, but I worried that the Mets would be over-investing in a pitcher will tangible signs of decline and without improving the defense needed behind him.
Many of you expressed a desire for the Mets to let the Phillies get Halladay, so the Mets could graduate a younger more affordable team of prospects in 2011-2012. Those prospects are no sure things, however, and with David and Jose becoming progressively more expensive, and Johan and K-Rod's backloaded contracts, the Mets may be wise to view these next two years as their window. I'm not saying that trading a bunch of prospects in a hasty reaction-move is right or smart, but it's certainly tempting, and may be in store whether you want it or not. Whatever happens, things certainly got more interesting.
669 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Depending on the prospects
this could be a real headscratcher. I’d rather have Lee than Halladay – younger, cheaper and almost as good.
I don't know if it's a head-scratcher
but it’s not obviously a big win for the Phillies, especially considering the inevitable 5-year/$100 million contract extension for Halladay. Sam is right that this is probably a lateral move.
Yes
Sorry, I meant it was more “eh?” than “what!?”
Personally I think Halladay and Lee will be comparable next year and thereafter Lee will be better.
Agreed and he will be cheaper
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
my 3 points
1. it is being reported that the Blue Jays are kicking in cash to help offset Hallday’s salary. He is due to make 15.75 M this year. Not sure why the Phillies need a small market team to kick in cash.
2. Lee’s agent is reported as saying he knows nothing about this trade.
3. If the Phillies don’t give up any decent prospects, it is still a net win for them for 2010 and 2011 at the very least since Hallday is better than Lee. Its just not the horror show we thought. And at some point Hallday will fall off, so if the Phillies gave up anybody good it could come back to haunt them.
Remember when...
…Toronto was a big market and the Phillies weren’t?
I disagree with:
Luckily, though, the most obvious target to overpay, John Lackey, is freshly off the market.
because Bay is still on the market, and I’d rather Omar panic and sign Lackey than panic and bid against himself for Bay.
LOL Germans
----Warner----
-------13-------
by Scent of a Woman on Dec 14, 2009 4:26 PM EST reply actions
Also I know personally
I didn’t want to trade for Halladay because of his age+cost. I’d trade a boat-load of prospects for other expensive guys as long as they weren’t in their mid 30s. Plus there’s no reason a competent gm couldn’t build a team around Reyes and David with a 150-170, if the Wilpons weren’t just being cheap and actually do intend on spending up to the lt threshold, even paying them fair market value.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 4:28 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I wanna wait until we actually see if Lee is going.
If he is, I don’t think the calculus has changed much, minus not being able to sign Lackey.
If he isn’t….we’re boned.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
The off-putting gaze
of a creepy Canadian child.
Hey, the White Sox released Bartolo Colon. 3 years, $45 million?
by Jamesir Bensonmum on Dec 14, 2009 4:41 PM EST reply actions
Haha, i love sarcasm!
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
and i luv canada jokes!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Francesa disagrees
“The Phils get Halladay. That’s it. The Mets’ season is over. They’re dead. He’ll win 22 games with that team.” – Mike Francesca
From Twitter
yup
just like Santana was gonna win 22 games with the Mets, right?
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Ugh, what a dupe!
http://www.offresonance.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/double-facepalm.jpg
Beer is good! And stuff!
Not panicked
I think I’m with the consensus here. If Lee is going, then the Phillies have not markedly improved their team all that much. Sure Lee could revert to his 2006-7 form, but is that really likely? I really don’t see this as a trade that clinches anything for the Phils.
The worst part of this isn't Philly getting Halladay
It’s that the M’s extending Lee could take them out of the bidding for Bay.
Leaving just Omar, bidding against Omar.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 4:46 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Kind of like the time Dwight Schrute fought himself on The Office
freakin youtube took down the video
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Or they think they can win now
Angels on the downturn and Texas and Oakland nowhere, time to buy a few FA’s and make a run at the division. Felix and Lee make them the team to beat in the AL west. Through in Bay and they have a very good and well balanced team.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if it's even realistic for the Mets to acquire Lee now.
That would be funny.
by Jonathan. on Dec 14, 2009 4:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I thought of this right away. Could the Mets be the team that helps the Phillies get Halladay, and in return the Mets get Lee. Not likely but that would be Omar thinking out of the box. HA one can dream I guess.
by BigBoyJacobs on Dec 14, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
If it helps any....
you know what I'm sayin' ?
by fxcarden on Dec 14, 2009 4:50 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Deep breaths Matt we'll get through this together!
1-2-3 and PUSHHHHHHH
by James Kannengieser on Dec 14, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Howie Rose had a great line about Lamaze
His wife was pregnant, and they told Howie he had to be the Lamaze coach. Howie’s reply: “Can’t I just be the Lamaze GM and hire the coach?”
Belushi's father,
would have said: “Gjon, marr fryme.” Albanian for breathe.
This is what worries me most
the NY media going into an uproar about the big moves made by the Yankees and Phillies while the mets twiddle their thumbs and pressuring Omar/The Wilpons into more stupid than Omar than they usually exhibit.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bizarre
I don’t understand why Cerrone is freaking out so much
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 14, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
because when nobody goes to Citi, or watches SNY come June,
he’ll be stuck with his wife who is a Yankee fan.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
LOL
Good one.
MC = king of bipolar Met fans
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 14, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
freaking out?
Well, he seems upset, but mostly because he seems worried now about possible panic moves, overpaying Joel Pineiro and some such. He doesn’t seem all THAT freaked out to me. have to say I don’t know much about the guy, other than references to him here.
he's an interesting case
one part awww-shucks everyman, one part imperious ass. one part proud professional (Matthew Cerrone TM), one part self-excusing baby. anyway he assures that his blog is a miserable enough place to be.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Meh
I don’t get the relentless hate on Cerrone.
The guy parlayed his blog into a full-time legit gig with the Mets. He gets access and all that. Worse things could happen.
For the record...
I don’t hate Cerrone, and I think his blog in general is quite good. I am, however, very pissed off that he threw all the posters off his site, and put in those rules where you had to audition.
It would have been far easier to ban people that cursed, etc. In short, his actions made it look like a punk like Dave Howard or someone like him was calling the shots, and they didn’t want to deal with the fans being up in arms about the state of the team.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
From what I can gather...
He did a great job getting his blog to where it is, but his arrogance and defensiveness can just be too much to take. He seems like he doesn’t want to improve, and he can’t take criticism.
what
you can’t not like a guy who’s successful? most guys i don’t like are successful. if cerrone was a loser like the rest of us he’d probably be perfectly nice.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
i should say
that i once wrote cerrone an email saying, in effect, “it’s a real shame the way commenting fell off a cliff with the new policy,” and he sent me back a perfectly nice email saying he gets too much traffic for it to be otherwise. now i respectfully disagree about that, but he’s not at heart a bad guy. still, something about running that site makes him a real ass often enough for me to persist in calling him an ass. anyway he invites the criticism by styling himself as auteur of a frickin mets blog.
anyway it’s nice to be here at the AA community where people way smarter than me (and cerrone) meet me on an equal footing and call me an idiot with all good humor.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
idiot
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
the above was said in a Dwight Schrute voice
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
He needs to breath deeply into a brown paper bag
Then put it over his head so we don’t have to look at him during Mets games.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
He's basically saying the exact same thing we are
not sure what the problem is…
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Pineiro!
12 a year for 3! Vesting player option afterward! And partial ownership!
THERE’s your panic move, monkeys.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 4:50 PM EST reply actions
I like the idea of this
Phillies trading with Jack Z and the new sabermetric Blue Jays GM?
Sounds good to me
Johan vs. Halladay
Will intrigue me to watch on the TuberBox, at least. Much more so than Johan vs. Lee, for whatever reason.
not really concerned
more intrigued as to who the other pieces of this trade are and where they are going. Assuming Lee goes it really doesn’t do THAT much to help the Phils, maybe a slight upgrade in their ace pitcher at the cost of prospects.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 5:04 PM EST reply actions
This may be the best thing I have ever read at AA.
Many of you expressed a desire for the Mets to let the Phillies get Halladay, so the Mets could graduate a younger more affordable team of prospects in 2011-2012. Those prospects are no sure things, however, and with David and Jose becoming progressively more expensive, and Johan and K-Rod’s backloaded contracts, the Mets may be wise to view these next two years as their window.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
by fxcarden on Dec 14, 2009 5:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
theres truth to that
but I’d rather see the franchise run correctly and lose for a while than run poorly to fit in the “window” have a good season or two, and then go back to a decade of trying to stay above the .500 line. Halladay would have been nice for sure, and part of me would be excited to get him, but when the shiny veneer of him wore off, i think i’d be disappointed in the long run.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The thing is
they have the players and wherewithal, run properly, to be contenders for a long time, doing well these next 2 years and well beyond.
by wobatus on Dec 14, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Except, as the Red Sox have demonstrated since they hired Theo
there’s no reason a team whose budget can range into $140-150m can’t win 95 or so every year.
Unless he gets hurt Halladay in the next five years will go frombeing the best pitcher in baseball to being a run of the mill #1/2. And there’s no reason to believe he’ll get hurt.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 14, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think the problem is Philly can't sustain 140-150 million per year
They’re pretty much maxed out and going all in now.
Good question
since they received revenue from revenue sharing in ‘02, ’03 and ’05. The ’big market’
that they are?
Germans Bomb Pearl Harbor?????????
Sam, you’re a good “baseball guy,” but please no more history references…It was the
Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor.
by 1969met on Dec 14, 2009 5:11 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
That's the joke
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
They have jokes
on the Internet???
"You know I am only teasing. I love you gals out there -- always have." - Keith Hernandez
1969met, how old were you in 1969?
negative 25?
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
I was goingto say, that the user name really says it all. However he might be just be messing with us. Internet sarcasm makes fools of us all.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
77 sun set strip
me and gigi at the chateau
I actually saw Animal House
when it was released. Which was a long time before Sam was born, but he apparently has seen it the zillion or so times it has been on tv. Great movie. Kevin Bacon. The Maestro. The corrupt politician from Sopranos. Mozart. And Jim Belushi’s brother.
Jim Belushi's brother?!?!?!?
Thats not funny in any sense! Take that back!
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Woah woah woah woah woah...
Jim Belushi has a brother?
/jk
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
I think hearing
0.2 was almost better because of the smile the fat freshman gives the dean when he hears his name followed by “Zero point 2”
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 14, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Not funny?
Gee, it was meant to be. I know. Jim Belushi sucks. John’s a little overrated I think due to the early death hagiography. I liked Akroyd, and Murray, better. Mmm, that’s good bass.
Extra Credit Questions
What is The Maestro’s “real name” in Seinfeld?
Who did the actor who played Maestro play in Animal House?
What ’80s music video did he appear in?
Bob
don’t know the other two
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Bob Cobb
is the Maestro.
That actor also played Niedermyer in Animal House.
And he had a starring role (maybe his only one between Animal House and 2 Seinfeld episodes) in Twisted Sister’s “We’re Not Gonna Take It” video.
Apparently also in Buffy the Vampire Slayer but have to admit I never watched that.
I just looked him up on IMDB
he was the bad guy in the first season of Buffy (which was a fantastic show), but he was done up to kinda look like Nesferatu, so I never knew it was the same guy as the Maestro. That’s crazy.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
buffy
I heard it was good. Only so much tube time back then for me.
yea, one of my favorites
I started watching it b/c I thought Sarah Michelle Gellar was ridiculously hot, and then I ended up actually getting sucked in b/c it was a good show. Much better than it had any right to be, considering it has a really cheesy premise and was on the WB. The acting and writing were just superb
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Just cause you're talking about Joss Whedon's show
Dollhouse, which pretty much sucked, just got really interesting two weeks ago, and now I’m sad it’s canceled.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
FUNNY.
I just caught an ep on Fox a month ago, and started watching on Hulu in earnest during the last three weeks.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
The first two episodes with Summer Glau are awesome
I love her
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Summer Glau
the only reason I kept watching the Terminator show long after it became apparent that the writers had no idea what they were doing and decided to just take a massive dump on everything established in the movies.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
HEY!!!
Terminator was AWESOME. I thought the show was great, and wished they had canceled Dollhouse and kept The Sarah Connor Chronicles. It wasn’t as good as T2, but it was one of the better shows on television.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
I really, really liked the first season
but I was not a fan of the 2nd season at all.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
I never saw it
But I loved Serenity. I’m gonna get the DVD one day, it just seems like a show I’d love. And Summer Glau is in it so it can’t be bad.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
yup summer glau is a good bonus
but its got great characters in general, if you liked serenity you’ll like the show. Too bad it got cancelled before its time by the evil Fox network.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
Are you actually from 1969?
If so, you must REALLY have never left your basement.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
He was around in 1969
but he skipped the late 70s and early 80s, which in retrospect was a smart move for a Mets fan.
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
77 Sunset Stip
me, gigi and cathy smith a chateau marmont. John R.I.P. brother.
by 1969met on Dec 14, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Additionally...
… the scene has also been played on Shea Stadium’s Diamondvision during rallies in the ’80s (borrowed from the Pirates, if memory serves… around the same time they used to play the scene from “Network”).
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
they played the scene from network in the late 90's
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
ACKCHULLY...
… they brought it BACK in the ’90s. (Then disappeared it again in favor of spazzy celebrities. What the hell?)
“Network” was first on there during the McReynolds-Myers years, IIRC.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
ah, ok
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
And it was awesome.
Peter Finch was wet, and he was mad as hell, and WE LIKED IT!
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
I believe so
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
I rec'd it
b/c I’m a history buff and he’s 100% correct.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
I figured someone would reply to this
but since nobody has and I don’t want people to think I’m an idiot, I was being sarcastic. I rec’d 1969Mets’ comment out of sarcasm.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
I'm all for historical revisionism
like when we kicked the Brits ass in WWII
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 14, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Oh god no
i read codoh.com sometimes and it drives me nuts. They were sending out fliers asking somebody to prove there was one gassing death at Auschwitz. Pretty disgusting
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 14, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Haha no, that's what I figured
I’m slow, so when I first read 1969’s comment I thought haha, he doesn’t get the joke, and then I saw the recs and the internet dumbass in me immediately thought “Wow, are there a bunch of lurkers who have been sitting here waiting for someone to point out that the Germans didn’t bomb PH?” But then I realized this probably was not the case. But I had to ask just to be sure.
3:56pm: Rosenthal and Morosi write that pitcher Phillippe Aumont of the Mariners and outfielder Michael Taylor of the Phillies are among the players heading to Toronto in the trade. They say an agreement is in place to send Halladay to the Phillies and Lee to the Mariners.
Wow they still kept Kyle Drabeck….Well good ridance Michael Taylor. No need to have another conerstone position player on the core(form a Mets fan point of view).
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
i was hoping either Drabek or Brown would go
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
If those are the only major prospects involved though
What would the equivalent have been for us? Holt and Davis/F-mart?
I'd say Holt and Davis would be the equivalent
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
huh?
Wasn’t the package for Halladay much bigger during the trade deadline than Aumont + Taylor? Seems like a pretty weak package.
ain't had enough...
Well...
… it’s also half a year later. The team getting Halladay gets less value for which they don’t ALREADY have to pay.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Heyman writes
“The Mariners have been looking for an ace…” Yeah, if only the Seattle Mariners had an ace…
i was thinking the same thing.
the king anyone?
by Mike Clemente on Dec 14, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
they're also looking for outfield defense
a charismatic leadoff hitter, a smart gm, and quality coffee.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Now that they got their “ace”, they can go ahead and get that power bat that they have been craving and sign Jason Bay……please Seattle, please sign Jason Bay!
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
They're going to sign Lee to an extension
and be out of the bidding for Bay.
Meanwhile after seeing the Yankees and Phillies make big moves and the Red Sox sign Lackey Omar will up his Bay offer to 5/90
or they'll hold up and maybe flip him in july to the Sox or Yanks
for a boatload of prospects in a fit of continuing smartness. depending on where they are in the standings and whether they think they can sign him.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
I think 5/80
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I'll take the over.
Omar is ripe for a fleecing. He admitted misjudging the pitching market. He’s misjudged how fast, generally, the market moved. We’re in Ollie country now, folks.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 14, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
are we 100% sure the Mariners are gonna sign him to an extension
wasn’t part of the reason the Phils traded him b/c he wanted to test free agency?
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Oh no we're not 100% sure
But there’s also been reports that the Bay-Seattle interest is entirely one-sided, Bay desperately wants to play in Seattle, they want nothing to do with him.
Well he makes perfect sense as a DH
I think his defense is bad enough that he would actually gain value as a DH.
Yeah, that is true.
But if he wouldn’t take that huge deal from the Sawx, the Mariners shouldn’t bother.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Saw this question on the ESPN.com Tubes
“Why would the Phillies give up 4 prospects to get Lee and then turn right around and give up more prospects AND Lee to get Halladay?”
A good point. I think Halladay is a great pitcher and all, but it looks like the Phils are maybe thinking that they have only one more run left. Dunno.
Grission and Husart - that is either the non-union Mexican equivelant of "Starsky and Hutch" or the key to winning the World Series.
by IanB in MD on Dec 14, 2009 5:29 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
They don't think they can resign Lee
and they’re already stretched to payroll limits for next season, and toronto or someone is apparently sending money for Halladays salary next season. And they think Halladay will sign an extension at a discount where as Lee would not only not give a discount but wouldn’t sign an extension before testing out free agency.
Though yeah trading for Halladay mid-season would have made more sense but it seems like the Jays were unrealistic with their asking price then. So really we should thank Riccardi for being dumb.
OK.
Thanks. This is a lot to digest because I’ve been distracted with a new baby and work so I don’t know all the deals and non-such.
Still, Im not gonna go nuts about this. I mean, the Mets have Maine and Ollie. Those guys can win 18-games each, right?
Grission and Husart - that is either the non-union Mexican equivelant of "Starsky and Hutch" or the key to winning the World Series.
again I ask
Why is Toronto sending money to anyone?
and if they could not sign Lee to an extension, why would they think they could sign Halladay at a discount?
There is more to this deal than what we have been told, I think. And it may revolve around the idiocy of Riccardi.
Because Halladay reportedly REALLY wants to be a Philly
to the point where he is willing to take the discount and be locked up long-term. Where as Lee was going to offer no discount and wouldn’t sign an extension without testing free agency, where’d they’d run the risk of losing him.
any respect I ever had for Roy Halladay
(and it was a lot), is completely and utterly gone after reading that he really wants to play in Philly.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Dec 14, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's disgusting he has the same nickname as Doc Gooden
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
by Evan_S on Dec 14, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
More like "I'm desparate to be a Chamption, so I'll go to the team that's the flavor of the year."
Beer is good! And stuff!
Whatever happened to the integrity of loyally sticking with your one team through thick and thin?
Or is that like for NERRRRRRDDSSSS??!?!?!?
Beer is good! And stuff!
Don't worry I'm sane.
In fact, I had a college professor who would go see a psychiatrist because she wasn’t insane, and that insane people would never go see one because they deny the fact that they are insane.
Beer is good! And stuff!
I don't actually object to that
I think it’s pretty respectable for a superstar to take a discount to win a championship.
No idea
though apparently part of it was just that he thinks they’re the best team in the NL… and apparently thought decidedly lesser of us.
I've been told
that Halladay lives right next to the Phils’ spring training complex so it would be very convenient for him
Brilliant idea
the Mets should find out where Albert Pujols lives and build a spring training facility right next door. I don’t care if it’s in the Dominican Republic, just do it.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Dec 14, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
It's not tampering...
… just protracted negotiations between neighbors.
With mangoes!
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
is anyone else
amused by the fact that francesa is continually insisting how this is the most devastating move the phillies could have dealt the mets, and that the mets fans are killing themselves en masse?
i find it funny when these met fans are calling in, very calm explaining why they don’t mind too much, and then when they hang up francesa goes on about how angry we all are.
Doris from Rego Park
Is waiting to call Steve Somers from heaven.
by wobatus on Dec 14, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
lol
Doris won’t be able to get a word out she’ll be so beside herself.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
The trade makes sense for the Phillies,
but only in the short term. Especially if Lee wasn’t going to resign with them and Halladay will take a discount.
The Phillies have a window, too.
once all their big guys go FA, it’s time for someone else.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
I don't think they'll go to FA
they’ll just get old and decline.
but by the time that happens we’ll have 37 million in contract obligations to the likes of Bay and K-rod.
Don't worry, Gina...
…we’ll have a whole bunch of new obliagtions to fill the gap.
What solid no. 2 pitchers are out there to trade for?
or our we relegated to signing the Pinieros, Marquis, and Sheets of the world.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Define "solid"
Omar is reading this thread and we need to make sure he doesn’t misundertstand.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
... someone much better than Mike "The Hand Licker" Pelfrey
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
...who is going to have a bounce back year, as EVERY BASEBALL ANALYST WILL TELL YOU
Jesus, the 50th time was tough, I have to say.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Yeah but there's a good chance his bounce back year
means he’ll be a high 4 era pitcher instead of low 5’s.
A bounce back year?
Not unless he’s developed second and third pitches.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Whah?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Dominant groundball pitcher + crappy infield defense = bad results
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Oh, he's a licker.
I thought that he just sucked.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
He was 11th in GB% in baseball last year
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
This is the BS about stat-heads
Ok, he was 11th in GB% in baseball. So what? He sucked. Sometimes you have to get your head out of the stat book and watch the guy pitch.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
No, this is the BS about people who use the term stat-heads.
No one’s arguing that he got bad results. But the process, his actual pitching, was only a bit worse than last year, and 85% of it can be shown by bad luck, while the rest was, like you say, mental. But I’d be pissed too if my team’s defense was THAT bad.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
haha
go Glider, I want to see this place explode over just how bad Mike Pelfrey is, when we should be worried that the GERMANS JUST BOMBED PEARL HARBOR!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What the fuck happened to the Delta I used to know?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
85% of it can absolutely not be shown by bad luck
his xFIP in 08 was in the mid 4s. last year was him regressing to his mean, the only thing that was bad luck was the difference between a 5.02 ERA and a 4.65 ERA which is no where near 85%.
For someone who uses stats and obsesses over people ignoring them I would think you’d understand how to interpret them better.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well
to be fair both of those could have been drastically affected by booted DP balls also. Maybe not drastically but somewhat. But yes Pelf didn’t have too good of a year
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 14, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, first of all, I didn't insult you.
No need to resort to that Gina, I know you’re a great commenter and very smart. We both respect each other and just disagree on this topic.
85% was just a random number, and obviously not entirely true. Yes, his FIP was much closer to his xFIP this year than last year. That’s true. But that’s not what I’m referring to. I’m referring to his ERA as compared to his FIP and xFIP. Because honestly, no mainstream media member is looking at FIP anyway. They’re all looking at ERA. What I’m saying is his combination of decent ERA and high GB rate (yes, it’s a high groundball rate, and Joel Pineiro’s been pretty successful with low strikeouts and awesome GB rates) makes him an average starting pitcher. Not an ace or even a good/great one, but one that can anchor a middle of a rotation. I think you’re overestimating the quantity of pitchers that even produced at Pelf’s level last year, let alone what he’ll do next year with better luck and/or progression.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Joel Piniero's been successful one year
with that combination and his groundball rate was 60%, a pretty significant difference from Pelfrey’s 51%. And I didn’t say anything about his FIP i’m talking about his ERA this year not being that far off his xFIP this year and last year, and even closer to his tra. According to his xFIP only like 10% of his era could be blamed on bad luck/defense, I understand 85% was a random number but it was a random number that was almost the complete opposite of the truth. More than likely last year he had a fluky home-run rate and this year he regressed to his actual mean and, barring the sudden development of off-speed pitches, he is a 1.8-2.0 WAR pitcher slightly below average to maybe average pitcher, because a pitchers value isn’t just based on his tra/fip but the innings he pitches, a 4.60ish xFIP/tra and 200 innings is average/ a number 3 starter. A 4.60ish xFIP and 180 innings is not and isn’t an anchor of a rotation. Which is why he was only a 1.8 war player, now I expect his inning totals will increase but there’s no discernible evidence that says he will suddenly become near a 3 WAR pitcher.
And I understand most pitchers didn’t produce on his level, that’s pro
What proof do you have that last year was his fluky HR rate?
The 5 Mets who had significant innings in 2008 and 2009 that pitched for the Mets in 08 and 09? Pelf (HR/9 up), Santana (HR/9 up), Maine (HR/9 down), Feliciano (HR/9 down), Figueroa (HR/9 up). We have no idea what the true Citi Field effect is. Pelf’s career HR/9 is 0.70, which is closer to 0.88 but definitely not close enough to it for you to “expect” him to not make any improvement.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
just generally. Because, 07 it was .77 in the majors and .74 in the minors and this year it was .80, and because his hr/fb numbers in 08 was incredibly low and well below average or his career/minor league numbers, and because his career ld% numbers say he’s not particularly adept at inducing weak contact, which is a skill you would expect for a hr rate that low to be sustainable.
That's not dominant though
When near half your balls are still getting into the air you are NOT a dominant groundball pitcher.
So you're saying only four pitchers in baseball are dominant groundball pitchers?
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Well no
there are guys with similar gb rates who miss way more bats than Pelfrey. If Pelfrey pitched to as much contact but got way more ground balls then I could see him as being dominant, if he had similar groundball numbers but missed more bats, like Ubaldo Jiminiez for example, I could see him being dominant. But when you pitch to that much contact AND that many balls end up in the air, you’re just not particularly good. He’s not bad, he’s just likely not better than a mid/high 4 era pitcher.
I'm just using dominant in that most of the balls hit against him are grounders
More so than the rest of the league
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
He strikes out too few
and is therefore relies heavily on his D. He wasn’t too different from the year before. Maybe Joel Pineiro could teach him some control. He needs awesome walk numbers with that k rate.
Exactly if a player pitches to as much contact as Pelfrey
they should have a higher groundball rate. His problem is the combination of missing too few bats and not an overwhelming groundball rate.
Agreed
For him to “improve” he would need an amazing 2b/SS combo…we don’t have that.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
what Evan said.
he just got horrid results because of infield defense.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Bullshit.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
tra
and xfip both say you’re wrong. and tra takes batted ball/defense more into account than FIP does.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But his xFIP was basically the same as last year.
And his value dropped a full win. You’re telling me that his actual pitching is at fault for that precipitous a drop?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
...
um yeah, you do realize the defense behind him would have no affect on his war total for fangraphs or statcorner right? His WAR value dropped because fangraphs uses FIP for WAR and his hr rate, which has nothing to do with defense, went way up increasing his FIP.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And he was still a ~2 win pitcher which is solid
No one is saying he’s great, we’re just saying he’s not bad. He is average, what’s wrong with an average pitcher?
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
I think next year he'll be a little closer to 3, but still, no one is arguing he's an ace
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
His HR rate did go up.
That’s the one thing I’m willing to concede. It’s hard to say right now how much it should go back down. But since Citi is most likely not a better HR park than Shea, I’m guessing it definitely drops back down. I’d think that’s the more likely outcome at least.
And I’m not talking about the actual defense, I’m talking about the xFIP comparisons between those two years if his WAR was so different. Based on his xBABIP, his FIP SHOULD be almost identical to last years, which would increase his WAR.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
XFIP has nothing to do with WAR
and his FIP increased because of his hr rates, and there’s no reason to think his hr rate should go down just because of citi field it was likely just unsustainable and fluky before, if anything .88 is low BECAUSE of citifield. And BABIP/xBABIP has nothing to do with his FIP going up because home runs aren’t counted in BABIP and his hr rate going up is why his FIP went up.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where as XFIP uses a regressed hr rate
As to eliminate fluky homerun rates. So his hr/9 rate returned to a more realistic number causing his FIP to regress to be inline with what his XFIP said it should be. Which makes him a 1.8 pitcher, and 1.8 is not average 2 is average. No one’s saying he’s bad either, just that he’s not particularly impressive one way or another and really isn’t much more than a 4/5 pitcher.
I basically go by
a number one pitcher is one of the thirty best, a number two is the next thirty and so on. Pelfrey’s tRA* was 4.79 or 67th in the league. Pelfrey is a solid number three pitcher in baseball.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
I would say that's not neccessarily a good way to look at it
He shouldn’t be compared to number 3’s in all of baseball, but number 3s on play-off teams/good teams. Is he a number 3 on a team that has world series aspirations?
46th in pitcher WAR in the past two years, FWIW
40th in FIP.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
We'll see this coming season ...
because no one will take Pelfrey off our hands – unfortunately. But I hope you’re right. I really, really do.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
tRA*
he was 67th of qualifying major league pitchers in regressed tRA. Which, and I know some folks don’t like to slot, would make him a better than average number 3.
I'm hoping
reyes bounces back, including in the field, castillo gets dealt or injured and tejada or someone fills in as a brilliant fielding 2b, if Murph is at first, his glove is ok, and Wright is Wright, so Pelfrey has a “breakthrough” year. I also hope to retire soon based on my amazing stock-picking abilities.
thing is, those are all likely outcomes.
But more than likely one of them goes wrong (most likely murph or Castillo).
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5203&position=P
NOTE: BABIP, K/9, K/BB, LOB%, xFIP, GB%, HR/FB, and his pitch charts. IT IS AN ABERRATION, HE WILL REGRESS TO THE MEAN JESUS CHRIST I AM SOOOOO TIRED OF SAYING THIS.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Note
his XFIP is still 4.59
note: that’s not good
note: his gb rate is right at 50%, that’s not dominant at all
note: his tra, which takes batted ball stats into account, is even worse
note: pelfrey is likely just a mid/high 4 era type pitcher.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
11th in GB% is absolutely dominant.
XFIP was only a bit worse than last year, when everyone was singing his praises.
I don’t even think Pelf is improving much over 08’s season. That’s probably Pelf without much upside. But I’d definitely expect that sort of performance next year, just not much better. People say it like he’s regressed, when last year, statistically, he was an above average pitcher.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Then don't say it
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Damn squid
imma need you to chillax bruh.
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you don't have three people shouting at you about how the Mets suck cause the didn't get Halladay, I take it.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Agreed
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Scott:
you just made a post entitled “Gloom and Doom”. Imma need you to be quiet.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
And I need youto crawl back into your box
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Shhhh, calm yourself.
Just making a joke. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I'm not the one throwing the curses out bruh
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't tell you to "crawl into a box".
So see, we’re both in the wrong. Moving on.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
That's a good question
there don’t really seem to be any middle guys like that, either aces or crap.
do the injury risk starters count?
Sheets or Bedard would be welcome. Otherwise, Doug Davis seems to qualify as middling…
I think we're going to have to take a chance on one of them.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
... or Wang?
LOL. I have to laugh to keep from crying.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
As long as we sign Ryan Garko, I'll be happy
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I'm beginning to think that the Wilpons are playing for 2011
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Not a bad idea
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
If so...
…then they should target Holliday and not fret too much about some of the other short-term holes on the roster for 2010. Bay is a NOW signing (at best), while Holliday will be a strong core player for the next few years.
Hey, anybody remember around this time last year
When SI picked us to win the World Series? Why does that seem so long ago….
amazingly
it was way less than a year ago. It was in like April
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
That's right!
That’s the reason we sucked. Whew. I thought it had something to do with the composition of the team.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Silly Glider:
It’s all SI’s fault! And its Sporting New’s faults that the Giants are struggling. They picked them to win the SB.
BS has really done well turning a dominant defense + a few solid FA agents into total crap,
but Omar’s been to bad for a long time. Omar beats him due to experience.
Remember when people thought the games would be over after the 7th inning
and if we had the lead we would win?
1986?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Red Sox have also made an offer to that left-handed Cuban pitcher
according to Francesca
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
They offered him $15 million
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
They made the offer a while ago, I belive.
It was when Chapman’s old agent asked for $60M, and Theo turned around and countered with $15M.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
... and we can't top THAT?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
$15 million is a lot.
That’s, like, 3 Schoeneweises.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Chapman rejected the $15M offer. He wanted $60M from the Mets as well. I think the Mets can make a competitve offer once Chapman readjusts his demands. The Mets will go down to Houston and make him an offer depending on the workout.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
that's probably just how it works in cuba
in Thailand I got offered something (a painted thing) for about $20 US and ended up buying it for about $12. The next guy countered $20 with about 50 cents, and ended up buying it for about $2. True story.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Frisky Mariners.
But if you’re Zduriencik, wouldn’t you focus on getting some mashers for DH/corner OF over bringing in “stud” 6.0 WAR pitchers? Their OF defense and infield are strong enough to MAKE pitchers like Randy Wolf look like Cliff Lee.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:03 PM EST reply actions
If the Mets end up signing Holliday
(I know, big “if”)
I think we’ll look back at today as being one of the best off-season days in Mets history.
Lee straight up for Halladay is a slight upgrade at best (over the past two seasons Halladay’s been worth less than a win more than Lee). Halladay is two years older than Lee, and while he’s been a workhorse lately, he has had injury problems in the past and any pitcher going into their mid-30’s is at least somewhat of a risk. Even if he takes a Philly discount, he’s still going to tie up a lot of payroll for the next few years. The Phillies are a great team as presently constructed, but they’re also an old one which has a bunch of players who are probably going to be starting a decline phase pretty soon.
But, the Phillies didn’t trade Lee straight up for Halladay. They traded Lee plus maybe as many as 4 prospects. That’s not including the 4 prospects they traded for Lee a few months ago. Basically, the Phillies gave up 8 prospects for Roy Halladay. I’m not sure exactly how good all those prospects are, but 8 is a HUGE haul, and I’d be shocked if at least one or two of them didn’t turn into legit ML players that will now not be giving the aging Phillies an injection of youth.
On the John Lackey front – yes, he was probably the best pitcher the Mets could have acquired this offseason, and so the 2010 product on the field won’t be as good as it would have been had the Mets gotten him. But almost everyone here agreed that Lackey wasn’t going to be worth the money and the years the Mets would have had to give him. There are going to be better pitchers available in free agency next year, and the best crop of Mets pitching prospects since Scott Kazmir or Generation K will be coming along in the next few years.
If the Mets end up with Holliday, they will have gotten younger and better for next year, and can probably be pretty active in the wild card race. The Phils would be the overwhelming favorites for the division, obviously, but then so were we after we got Santana. But 2010 wouldn’t even matter that much, because the Mets future would actually start to look a little brighter – they’d still have a young core with some promising prospects on the way. Much like December 7, 1941, things might look bleak today, but in a few years I think we will see that the Mets have already absorbed the worst and will be better and stronger because of it.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Dec 14, 2009 6:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
We're going to sign Bey, not Holliday
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I used to love his show.
Springer before Springer.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
lol
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Bay, not Bey.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Bay
I’m actually starting to think we may be the only spot left for Bay, unless the Giants get motivated. If the offer was a PR move, it just may backfire.
who gives a crap if we're the only spot for Bay
the Mets shouldn’t be in the business of charity. The Mets should sign Matt Holliday. If it turns out nobody else in baseball will sign Bay, we can sign him for the league minimum and let him play right field.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
If Bay wants to sign to a two year 20 million dollar contract
I’d take him.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
That would be awesome
I hope Omar’s reading.
Although at this rate, I expect Wilpon to sign Bill Sheridan replace Jerry.
Unfortunately
Omar was really eager to make an offer so he wouldn’t have to get caught up in long negotiations. And of course there’s the “mystery team” which I’m 100% sure exists.
Associated Press is reporting
That it’s not Lee the Phils are giving up pitchers J.A. Happ, Joe Blanton and outfielder Dominic Brown.
by jacksonvillesuns on Dec 14, 2009 6:09 PM EST reply actions
PURE speculation.
At least with Heyman, we KNOW whence it comes.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
AP Changed their story
It says Lee now.
by jacksonvillesuns on Dec 14, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Thank bloody god
I was going to arrange a swell trip to the Brooklyn Bridge with other Mets fans if that were true
Whew
don’t scare people like that
DO WHAT JOSE REYES DO!!!
by Jadden Hopkins on Dec 14, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
What!!!!!
No way
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
This has to be wrong.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
That's not terrible, actually.
It just means we shouldn’t worry so much about next year.
They’d be mortgaging the future for one year of funky, FUNKY pitching. (Resigning Lee after next year— assuming next year goes well for him— means Sabathia-type doughnuts.)
Also, pictures or it’s not true.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Happ is not good.
Blanton is not good. And Brown is a good prospect, but hardly AMAZING.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Concur about Blanton.
He just had the benefit of playing in a shoebox of a ballpark.
Beer is good! And stuff!
If Taylor goes, too...
… that’s a pretty big haul.
Granted, it’s a pretty big “if.”
They’re just NOT keeping Lee beyond this year… especially if they’re getting Halladay.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Fuck me sideways!
Well, get ready for the agonizing sight of the Phils in the World Series forever…and ever…and ever…and ever….
Beer is good! And stuff!
Heyman tweet
says Lee is IN the deal (about 25 minutes ago).
Link?
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
If you need me to link...
…to Heyman’s twitter acct., here you go:
2010 Fan Projections:
2010 Fan Projections
Roy Halladay – 6.7 WAR
Cliff Lee – 6.2 WAR
2010 Salary
Roy Halladay – $15.75 M
Cliff Lee – $9 M
So the Phillies traded a 6.2-win pitcher making $9 million and a few legit prospects for a 6.7-win pitcher making $15.75 million.
I fail to see how that’s a good move for the short-term or long-term. Is consolidating an extra 0.5 wins into 1 roster spot worth $6.75 million and a few prospects? Is it even worth the prospects? Is it even worth the $6.75 million? Is it even worth $3 million? The answers are probably no, no, no, and about.
Unless the Phillies think Lee is fundamentally worse than his 08-09 form or Halladay is better than his 08-09 form, what the hell was Amaro thinking?
Not to mention the privilege of paying Halladay whatever the market would next year in a contract extension…
http://www.capitolavenueclub.com/
by PWHjort on Dec 14, 2009 6:17 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
THIS
Ruben Amaro = not a good GM.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
But he signed Raul Ibanez!
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Agreed
This is such a great deal for the Blue Jays…are they really getting Taylor, Aumont and two other prospects for one year of Halladay for 15.75milion?
Are you kidding? Mariners CLEAR winner in this trade.
But Blue Jays did well too.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Hate to agree with this guy
but I think he is right. I like what the M’s did. They will spin some of the other guys like Blanton off and bring back some more prospects. Good day for Seattle
And the Jays got a boat load of prospects.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
i am probably a fool
but i am comforted when big time pieces get dealt to Seattle or Toronto, esp. Not to the Mets “rivals”. They can’t hurt anyone there.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Crawl into your box
and have your 8 legged mother put the lid on it
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, I didn't call him names.
If he wants to act maturely, fine by me.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
dude calm down
we’re all Mets fans here, no need for crap like this
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Sorry, should just ignore
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Mariners did good as well
But if the deal is Aumont, Morrow, Taylor, D’Arnaud to Toronto, Lee to M’s and Halladay to Phillies, I think Jays did a little better
Rec'd
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
people saying halladay will sign a 3 yr / 60 mil extension
with maybe a vesting option. lee wouldn’t give that. if halladay seriously doesn’t care about getting max bucks and that supreme cosmic rarity falls into the Phillies laps, oh fuck it all.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...
…and to live in Philadelphia? My least favorite major East Coast city.
Baghdad > Philadelphia
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Troy, NY
….. sucks, but still beats Philly
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
I went to RPI...
Thanks for re-opening that wound.
anytime
at least you can talk about it in past tense.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
wow is it that bad?
i temporarily considered going there, until i remembered i was from the south and preferred snow on tv.
The way I see it:
RPI’s pretty alright; Troy is a dump (love me some Ale House wings tho, and the soon-to-be-opened Dinosaur BBQ).
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
i'm looking forward to the dinosaur BBQ
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
They picked an awesome spot by the river.
Needless to say, I’m psyched.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, I didn't know Troy was getting a Dinosaur
Less novelty for me now that there’s one in Harlem (which I think is almost as far away as the one in Troy will be) but maybe worth a trip when I’m up in Albany in March.
I'll probably be there.
I may just camp out there for the first week or so that it’s open. I’ll need a break from the biergarten by then.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
yeah Biergarten is a nice novelty
but i’ve already had their boot of beer, so its a bit less exciting.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
I am looking forward to das boot on my birthday in March.
But, other than that, I spend pretty much every Saturday morning there watching EPL. Nothing like some football, beers, and wurst to get the weekend started.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
i suppose
but being in Troy i find the Ruck a more convenient location. Biergarten is more of an occasional thing
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, The Ruck.
My old band used to practice in an old beauty school just around the corner from The Ruck. Post-practice beer and fries were often in order.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
what brings you to my neck of the woods?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Was that to me or Catsmeat?
I might up there for the ECAC Hockey Tournament at the Pepsi in mid-March.
(I think Catsmeat lives there now.)
I’ve heard good things about the biergarten – I actually met one of the guys who runs the place (and also Bombers, same owners) at a bachelor party this past spring.
Yeah, I live here now.
And if you’re talking about Matt from Bombers/Wolff’s, he’s a good cat. I’m probably biased, though, because he’s thrown me a lot of free drinks over the years. Also, anyone willing to open a niche bar that caters to soccer fans is ok in my book.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
I was in Troy last week
near RPI by the Green Island Bridge. If it’s such a happening place, please tell me why every time I’m there downtown is empty all day?
you really have to know where to go
its not a lively place in general, there are just a few oasis of human activity
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
It's not really a "happening" place
There are just a few places that I particularly enjoy.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, come on.
Parts of Philadelphia are quite livable.
You just have to speed between them in a car with rolled-up windows. Preferably with your loved ones ducking beneath window-level.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd
I’m thinking that they believe Halladay’s sustainable at 6-7 WAR for the next four years or so.
If they’re right— YUGE “if”— then they’ll be able to lock him down for 4 years cheaper than they’d be able to re-sign Lee— several years younger, lefty, just removed from a CY and WS MVP win, and loaded with other market-rate-inflators— methinks.
Plus, they hold onto Drabek, Brown, and their entire prized farm, save Taylor.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
im pretty sure they're getting one of the teams to pick up part of his salary though
so really they just gave away a few prospects for nothing, but not much money… still a questionable move to say the least.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
thank god they sent Lee away is all that matters
i don’t want Omar necessarily to do anything big in the short term but get fired, but i have to admit, the image of him sitting there with his thumb up his ass is getting stronger.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
The last 15 to 20 comments posted have to be my favorite of my limited time surfing the baseball bloggosphere.
I shows how much fing passion we have for this team. I hope the Wilpons see this, and realize what they do to us everytime they try their BS and skimp on the details
i dunno this whole off-season
and the debates we’re having strikes me as one of the worst ever. Like Karaoke on the deck of the Titanic
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
We were all composed until we heard that Lee might be staying with the Phillies. Its like some yelled “fire” in a movie theater.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's okay everyone, it's okay
The Mets are interested in Fernando Rodney.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
damn
i wanted Rodney Fernando!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Is he healthy?
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
i see what you did there
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
I'm laughing AND crying at once.
The office is looking at me funny.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
The more I look at this deal, I more I believe that this was dumb.
The Phils just swapped aces and let a few of its prospects cross the Northern border.
This is just…FAIL!
Beer is good! And stuff!
Fuck the Wilpons
I’m not going to a game at Citi Field until they, Manuel and Omar are all gone.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
You're right. Our only hope is that Fred sells the team.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
or loses it in a ponzi scheme
more likely
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Anybody here know how to run a Ponzi scheme that might entice Freddy?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
no, but Edgardo Alfonso is running a Fonzie scheme
that joke never gets old. to me.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
No let's do it, guerilla style.
Overthrow the bastards with brute force.
More fun that way.
Beer is good! And stuff!
I dunno which would kill them worse, the blast of the radiation that comes afterwards.
Beer is good! And stuff!
for this crew, it would have to be the blast
they are probably inmune to radiation after being in Flushing all those years.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
Nope.
Because even signing Bay and Molina won’t do it for us. And there are no more good pitchers left.
But if Omar pulled off an unexpected trade for a no. 2 pitcher (who that is, I have no idea), then you could be right.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
If they signed Holliday/traded for Crawford
without giving up too much AND made a trade, without giving up too much, for someone like Harang maybe.
but other than that bleh i’d rather watch the nets.
But we really NEED pitching.
If we sign Bay, our outfield is set. We won’t then go after Craw.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
He's not now
But 4 years from now when we’re paying him 20 million he will be. I’ll consider it a preemptive strike.
Not necessarily
He’s not exactly fat or old or slow and I don’t think his supposed defensive decline is the linear pattern some make it out to be. Hopefully, when I have more time later this week I’ll make a post.
And it's not actually that I expect his defense to decline that much
But I imagine his offense will start to decline too.
That'll be the last year of his contract
I can take that if he produced the first 4 years.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
And it's not just that Bay is bad or good
It’s that it makes no sense to sign him to that contract when Holliday is sitting on the market and the only offer anyone has made to him is for less than 1.5 million more than the offer we made to Bay. And I strongly object to things that just don’t make no damn sense.
There must be concerns about Holliday's numbers
… the Coors Field thing.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
He hit in Busch...so...
I’m not sure why anyone is still hung up on Coors. He’s not going to hit 30+ homers but the same basic skillset is there.
I know. But only for half a year.
I thought we’d go after Holliday too. So I’m surprised about our strong interest in Bay first. This is the only reason I can think of … aside from money.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
He didn't hit in Oakland much
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
meaningless sample size
You have to look at the whole year. Same reason you can’t split up his home/road stats at Coors, it is only half the data.
Then it must be Boras and money.
Mets must then be scared off by Boras and the money they expect him to ask for. That’s the only thing I can think of.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I think so
I think they are concerned that if they pursue Holliday, Boras will jerk them around until all the other options are gone and they may end up with nothing.
Or...
be stuck having to pay him $100 over 5 years.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
5/$100M
Would not be a terrible overpay for Holliday. Indeed, in a diffeent economy, it woul dbe considered a bargain.
But the Mets won't pay that, I believe.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Indeed.
Plus, after the first slumpy month, his Oakland rate stats were a near-match for his career averages. In a “pitcher’s park.”
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
both Oakland and St. Louis
are tiny sample sizes. I don’t think you can learn too much from either one. They basically cancel each other out. And, based on that, I would have had no problem signing him based solely on how awesome he was in Colorado
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
He was still a 3 win player in 93 games in Oakland
which is really good. He had a .368 wOBA with a .318 BABIP, when his career BABIP is .354.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Didn't hit in Oakland =
amounts to basically just a bad April.
Yeah, but you said it yourself, they will be screwed anyway you slice it.
I think the the only way the Mets can get away with not being robbed blind by Boras is if they make the deal while Bay is still available.
The $1.5M difference will not stand too long if Bay signs somewhere else. We will pay far more in yearly money and total years.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Could the Mets be "using" Bay to drive down Holliday's cost?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
The problem is...
…the Bay market just tanked. It might be wise for him to take the Mets’s offer right now.
Who?
Other than St. Louis who is this mystery team thats going to drive Hollidays price up?
And why not at least make an offer to Holliday?
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
St. Louis just gave their opening bid just a few days ago. I can see them wanting the Cards to set the price before bidding since they seem to be a main competitor.
Additionally, I am sort of expecting Bay to accept the offer any minute now seeing that Cammy just signed with the RedSox……that worries me a bit.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but like you said the Cards gave a bid
and it was under 18 per, so if they were just waiting for the cards why haven’t we heard about them meeting to put their own bid in?
According to Ken Rosenthal
The Cards’ offer was 8/100-110. Which seems kind of odd. I would link but the link from Google News doesn’t work.
Wow 8/110. I never thought the Cards would go that high.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
The offer I heard
was 5 years with an annual value of less than 18 million per.
but I actually don’t think that’s that odd, a mid-market team can’t necessarily afford a near 20 million per contract, especially when they have to resign Pujols plus a few other players coming up, so it would make more sense of them to spread the money out over more years.
This is true
Just not within the parameters we’ve been thinking of from the Mets. And I suppose it’s not such a stupid idea, since Omar may well never get around to making him an offer.
Thanks!
You know though, I would not be willing to go higher than $18M per. I would add a sixth year with a club option of a seventh. I can not fault anyone for failing to go much higher than that. You are right though. They should issue an offer now, ala take it or leave it, and if he tries to wait out Bay, then sign Bay.
As you know, I am not crazy about Bay, but if the gap in contract value is that expanse of a chasm, I would rather have Bay.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I wouldn't go higher than 18 per either
My issue is the fact they haven’t even made an 18 million per or so offer to Holliday and most reports seem to say they don’t even intend to. So we could end up signing Bay for 16.5 and some team coming in behind us signing Holliday for 18/18.5 per.
They did meet during the winter meetings, but did not give a formal numbers.
By the way, could you tell me the terms of what the Cards offered? I read that it was a bit exotic where there is an opt out clause with five years. I am not sure. Could you hook it up?
by Coolpapabell on Dec 14, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
I'd prefer Arroyo ... I think .... I dunno anymore.
All the options at this point seem so flimsy.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
But Bay sucks
and Harang is a solid pitcher
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Solid but trending down. Either he or Arroyo would be good for 2-3 years
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
or.....
we could keep the pitching we now have, and get a 4th outfielder……
yes……I mean 10 men on the field.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
Very Gangsta.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Correction
Anybody not named the following:
Henry Blanco
Mike Hessman
Alex Cora
Chris Coste
Cory Sullivan
Some two-bit sucker that doesn’t even deserve to be playing baseball, nevermind the MLB
Beer is good! And stuff!
... or:
Piniero
Marquis
Sheets
Bedard
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I'd be
ecstatic should we sign Sheets.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Actually, I think we now need to take a gamble on him ...
and keep our fingers crossed. This, and maybe a Piniero or Marquis signing, is now the best we can all hope for.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Well, that's what we are now looking at.
: (
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
WFAN is reporting Halladay is getting a 3 yr 70 mill extension
take that for what it’s worth
Cheap
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Doesn't sound cheap to me.
Over 20 mil a season might be a tad extravagant.
Beer is good! And stuff!
For the best pitcher in baseball?
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
I thought that was KRod!!?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Is that a belly I see?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
no
its a baseonballs
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
That's a great deal for Philly
I’d rather pay a lot per year for the next 3 years than commit for 6 years or so.
THAT'S ALL???????!!!!!!!!!
Kill me now.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
That's over 20 mil per season.
That’s pretty significant. Though only 3 years, so it’s still a good deal.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Considering...
… Lee’s going to be asking for 5-7 years at that rate, that’s somewhat reasonable.
Factor in that they perceive their “window” as the next 2-4 years (with virtually the entire core passing their primes by then), and it makes many sense.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
But only for 3 years
The Phillies don’t have to worry about what happens to him when he’s 35-37 years old. That eliminates a lot of risk.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Ha. Right!
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
That's an incredible deal for the Phillies.
There’s no way the AAV was going to be less than that (it’s what CC and Santana are making), and three years is exactly the length of time I’d want to sign a great but older pitcher for.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 15, 2009 4:39 AM EST up reply actions
Has anything been confirmed yet?
Cause if they really didn’t give up Lee I’m gonna need to purchase some vodka.
im somewhat of a beer snob myself
so i don’t judge.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
that it is
i really like the 120 minute IPA, and one is enough to get a decent buzz going
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Thomas Hardy
was one I used to like, but don’t see it much around.
Blue Point Hoptical Illusion
Always a treat.
Beer is good! And stuff!
by R_Adragna on Dec 14, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If they didn't give up Lee OR Taylor/Drabek...
… I’m going straight for the grain, milady.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Aw, shucks.
Yer makin’ me e-blush over heah.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
tough to see past molina
if you know what i’m saying.
(he’s fat.)
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Let's make an all-Fatso team!
Livan and Bengie are battery-mates; Mo Vaughn is our first baseman, and Rich “El Guapo” Garces closes it out!
Beer is good! And stuff!
just in case someone hasn't seen this
gold standard of sports fat jokes, via the onion.
by Pack Bringley on Dec 14, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
maybe i'm just delerious
but you all are a delightful bunch to get into a tizzy with. now i gotta go. night night!
eh
“Here’s what we’ve learned so far: The Phillies will get Roy Halladay from the Blue Jays and will hand him a three-year, $60 million contract extension; The Blue Jays, in turn, will get D’Arnaud and outfielder Michael Taylor from the Phillies, and 20-year-old right-handed pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont from the Mariners; Seattle will wind up with Cliff Lee from the Phillies. This thing might not get sorted out until Tuesday or Wednesday, and we’ll be sure to keep up with the details as they stream in. Stay tuned.”
i think the phillies are giving up way too much…two good prospects and cy young winner for the right to sign halladay for 3 years 70 mil? please.
things I'm currently aggrieved about
having to care about this off season when this team is years away from contending
having to wait for current management to be relieved of its duties at midseason
benji or any molina wearing mets uniform
the shape and color of the outfield walls at $itifield
francisco rodriguez
anything Wilpon
watching the red sox make moves to acquire every remaining player not under Yankee contract
knowing the mets have one serviceable, reliable starter and he’s coming off surgery
knowing Omar is now going to try to make a splash (see my omar quote below), probably into the wrong pool
hearing the flight of the Concords will not be returning for season 3
bitter memories of when this team was full of hope and it was fun to support them
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
i'd think that too
except for how long this past season took
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 14, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
What would be worse
Losing the management midpoint or having a semi-successful season and cementing the managements position for 2 more years?
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
cementing the management for 2 more years by far
not that I think it matters, I don’t think Omars getting fired anytime soon anyway.
That won't be possible. It's clear to everyone Omar was clueless
and completely bungled this offseason. Between the offers to Bay and Molina, presumably signing at least one starter, and signing Cora and Blanco, the FA budget was at least $32.5 million. And we’re looking at what, an 85 win team with no real hope of making the postseason?
Minaya should be fired now, but it will be clear even to the Wilpons by July 1st that the season is over. My only hope is that in trying to save his ass we don’t wind up with Bay at 5/85 and Molina at 3/18 which pretty much kills us off for 2012 and after.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 15, 2009 4:45 AM EST up reply actions
"Years away from contending"
More like a few pickups away from contending this year.
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 14, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
Cameron in talks w/Red Sox
…according to Robothal: http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/6677312207
Theo Epstein
is much smarter than Omar Minaya.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
I really think what the Mets should do after the fire Omar
is hire some puppet GM, pay off someone in the Red Sox front office to be a mole, and just leech off the Red Sox. If Epstein is about to sign someone for 3 years, $20 mil, we offer him 3 years, $21 mil. If the Red Sox are about to be part of a 3 team trade, we go to the other teams and offer slightly better players.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Omar is a puppet GM
Jeffy is calling all the shots.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
but why be cheap
the Mets can afford to be in the same range as the Sox, and the fans would actually accept that. No way they’d accept making the kind of shrewd moves the M’s have to make.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Speaking of the Red Sox, I noticed this post over at BBTF:
“First, I think it’s important to look at what happened today – in the early afternoon, the Red Sox signed the best pitcher on the free agent market. Then, in the evening, they signed Mike Cameron. In my case, my general happiness with the Cameron signing is a function of the Lackey signing – I know precisely where Bay’s money is going, and I think it’s a good decision by the club.
Second, I don’t see much reason to consider the Red Sox run prevention and run scoring sides separately. I can see the case that at certain extremes, a run saved and a run scored aren’t basically equal, but the 2009-2010 Red Sox don’t seem to me to have reached such a point. And the team is clearly investing in run prevention to make up for the losses in run scoring. Seems like a reasonable plan."
This is exactly the kind of thing a number of us were hoping for, what—two or three days ago? As for the second paragraph of that post, did we ever hear anything like that from the Mets FO? What we got instead was dribble about needing pitching and defense and speed and defense.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 15, 2009 4:48 AM EST up reply actions
that's the difference between a good front office and a bad one
I think the baseball gods are still paying us back for ’86
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
So this must be our future
Get:
1. Bay or Holliday,
2. Sheets or Bedard,
3. Marquis or Pineiro,
4. Molina,
5. Biemel,
6. Trade Castillo, and
7. Sign Hudson.
That’s the now glass half-full version.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
OKay
1. Holliday
2. Sheets and Bedard
3. Pineiro if cheap
4. No
5. Kiko Calero
6. Trade Castillo
7. Felipe Lopez
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Sheets AND Bedard ... ?
To much risk?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Would you rather...
… have
Two potential 4-6 WAR arms (with guys like Niese or Nieve or Duchscherer as fallbacks)
OR
Two years of fat catcher?
The price, it seems, may be about the same.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
Bay plus Molina plus Hudson (at the rumored 4/32)
commits $31 million a year for at least the next three years to old players in or going into their decline phases. Hudson for each of the last two years has been below average at 2b acc to UZR. Bay is half the player he was prior to 2007. Molina is a fat slow 36 year old catcher. Why handicap yourself badly for 2011 and beyond in order to increase your chances of getting to the postseason in 2010 from 0.5% to 2.0%?
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 15, 2009 4:52 AM EST up reply actions
Not enough risk!!!
I think they can both be had for around 5 million, and Bedard won’t be ready until June anyway.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
adding two risky players doesn't mean there's more risky
if anything it means less, because you have a fallback. If you sign one of them in lieu of Pineiro, or whatever, then it’s risky, but that’s not what he’s advocating.
So, if you had the checkbook and pen, what would you do given what's out there?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Depends on the prices obviously
players I like for the right price include Sheets, Pineiro (who Mets fans don’t give enough credit), Doug Davis (assuming his price is extremely low), and then maybe one or two of Pedro, Smoltz, and Bedard on incentive-laden contracts. Harang and Meche could also be worthy trade targets if the Mets could get them in a package with Phillips or DeJesus.
Shawn Hill, Rich Hill, Wellemeyer, and Chien-Ming Wang are all worth split-contracts. I’d bid hard on Chapman.
Mainly, I’m just worried the Mets will sign a landmine like Jon Garland, Jason Marquis, or Jarrod Washburn who have no stuff at all, will command a big base salary, and won’t survive the Mets defense.
I hope
Colleti gives Garland a decent contract and Washburn just goes back to Jack Z on a realtively cheap deal. Marquis scares the crap outta me though
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 14, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
I'm weirded out by Pinero
I know pitchers who develop groundball skills usually retain them, but at the same time it’s just hard for one year of success to change my perception enough to justify the deal he supposedly wants, 4 years 10-12 million per.
Pinero
Don’t think he’ll get a 4-year deal. Still, i think he’d make a lot more sense for a team with a stellar defensive INF.
that is a good point
im still holding out hope castillo quits baseball
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah that's another major problem
though with Reyes back, though he’s been up and down defensively, and Murphy/that guy who catches in the bullpen sometimes possibly providing plus 1b defense it won’t be as bad.
yeah 4/40-48 is a bit much
i’d be ok with 3 years
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
he is not worth anywhere near $12m per.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
i'd say 3/24 is more than fair for him
but he’ll cost far more
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
2010 is gone. It's over people. Time to punt.
Other than adding a durable starter and take a shot at winning 82 games I’d only consider players who could help me in 2011 and beyond.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 15, 2009 4:53 AM EST up reply actions
logic fail
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 14, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
This...
4. Josh Thole
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 15, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
glass half-full = what most people wanted before today
I really don’t see how today affects the Mets at all, other than the fact that the Phillies may or may not have gotten better.
Very few people here wanted Lackey or Halladay at the prices they cost. Holliday is still out there, Sheets & Bedard are still out there, Marquis and Pineiro are still out there. Honestly, the Wolf and Harden signings bother me more, b/c those were guys I had hoped the Mets might actually have interest in.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
K
1. Holliday, or Bay and a whole lot of alcohol
2. Sheets, then Bedard
3. Pineiro, and a lot MORE alcohol
4. Fly to Milwaukee, kidnap Gregg Zaun
5. Matt Capps for cheaps?
6. Trade Castillo for Bradley and megabuxxx
7. Sign Hudson, squint until he looks younger
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 14, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
For a cheap option
Duchscherer would be interesting.
(sorry about the blank post above).
I liked it when you left the blank space
I thought it was a clever way of implying that doing nothing was a cheap option, which is quite true
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
seriously
The Good Phight (Phillies SBN Blog) has ~500 comments on the topic. The other 3 NL East SBN sites have 17 combined comments on the topic (all at the Braves site). We have over 400 in this thread and probably about the last 80 or so in the Lackey thread, plus a few more spread out in the fanshots/fanposts.
Basically, we are discussing a trade that has nothing to do with the Mets as much as the other 4 NL East blogs put together. Proof that we are both a) passionate, and b) overreacting.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Thats why we think the Germans bombed pearl harbor
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Also its probably cause braves/marlins fans
generally know what to expect and what not to expect from their team every off-season. With Omar every off-season is a rollercoaster of surprises and disappointments. Like I’m a steeler fan and I pretty much stop paying attention once the off-season comes because I know they’re not going to make any “big moves” and because they have long-term goals and everything they do is towards a clearly set goal. Where as the Omar seems to just fly by the seat of his pants.
YOUTH and it's science
I agree this is not great. The phillies rotation is as good as last year. The mets got to do something to get an arm or two on the team. Trade Beltran? Hes got to have some value left right? Out there has to be some dependable guys that can play in the big city. I just dont know who those guys are.
Regardless my natural mets fan freak out reaction is going crazy….cause its science
Kelvim Escobar signed a minor league deal with the Mets....
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/metsblog/report_escobar_signs_minor_deal_9LP1493ORmhs84Fvd2YREL
Good move even if he’s only a reliever
i like that move
could be a good pickup
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Keeping up with the Jones'
The Phillies get one of the Blue Jays’ top pitching prospects circa 1997, so the Mets go out and get the other one.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
We shoulda gotten
Carpenter off the scrap heap
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 14, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
imagine how nasty the Blue Jays could have been
if they had Escobar, Carpenter, and Halladay the last few years.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
JA Happ and Joe Blanton took physicals according to the Associated Press
From MLBTR
So are they giving up Happ, Blanton, and Lee in one deal????
Oh, and Kyle Drabek will be in the deal according to Jim Salisbury's Twitter
This seemingly is getting worse for the Phillies
If the Phillies are that dumb, and still manage to dominate the division and get to the WS 2 years in a row
What does that say about our division and the National League?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Dec 14, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
wait, they're trading 3/5 of their rotation
for Roy Halladay? I mean, he’s good, but fucking hell are they that dumb?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Dec 14, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
this would be too awesome
theres no way they’re all going, maybe they all got physicals so whichever ones they ended up trading were already cleared?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
nobody
halliday and pray for rain… lots of rain
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
hamels
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Dec 14, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
According to MLBTR, Carlos Triunfel, one of the Mariners top prospects is in the deal too.
That means Lee has to be in the deal, right??
If they give up Lee, Happ, Blanton, Drabek and Taylor
I’ll be happy with the deal
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
No way Amaro gives up all of that
Only someone like Bill Bavasi would give up that much for one player
Me too
if they somehow manage to keep Lee. I just quit forever and I’m dedicating my life to the nets.
From MLBtraderumors
10:12pm: Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun (via Twitter) has Toronto getting Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D’Arnaud; Philly getting Roy Halladay and Philippe Aumont; and the Mariners getting Cliff Lee, plus another piece (or, pieces).
Happy Days!
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
How great would it be if that other piece to the Mariners
was Dominic Brown?
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
hey guys hideki matsui is off the market
we’re a tiny bit safer
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 14, 2009 8:44 PM EST reply actions
there is no safety.
only the illusion thereof.
at least until The Omar has been put to sleep.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
Lee vs. Halladay
Given the dollars, and 2009 stats, it seems that getting Halladay is no big deal for Philly.
I just wonder about the fact that Lee faced NL teams and Halladay pitched against the AL East all year. Facing the Nats and Mets 38 times is a little nicer than playing the Yankees and Sawx 38 times.
Based on that, I’d say that Halladay probably gets a bigger advantage over Lee than the numbers state.
Still, the money is significant.
Drabek is in the deal
but the Phillies get Phillippe Aumont
If the Phillies lose Lee, Drabek, and Brown, I’ll be very pleased
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Losing the Liberty Bell
they want the Statue of Liberty, too, for Montreal, it makes up for the Expos.
I wonder what its like having a good GM and manager at the same time?
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 14, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
Having ignored everything above my post...
I don’t really see why the Phillies did this, other than being able to sign Halladay long-term, whereas Lee, that wasn’t working out too well.
I read that the Phillies are getting rid of a few prospects, plus Lee, Happ, and Blanton. They’re getting back Halladay. Three guys who were in their rotation have been shipped off, and they’re getting basically the replacement for Lee, in Halladay. They’re still out a Happ and a Blanton.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 14, 2009 11:04 PM EST reply actions
I'm not sure about that
CC could supernova any day now
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
by Evan_S on Dec 14, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd have to wait on Johans next season to really make a decision
to see how the injury affected his pitching, but right now his numbers are in a scary decline.
if healthy
Johan. If put on a diet, CC. And I love(d) Halladay, but I think when all 3 are at their best he’s clearly the 3rd best.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
I agree with all 3 are at their very best
But I think right now Halladay is most consistently the best? if that makes sense, but at their ages for the money I don’t think there’s any way I’d prefer him, but for me it will really depend on next for for my judgement on Johan.
yea, I agree with that
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Pitched in AL East and won tons of games on decidedly mediocre teams. Halladay #1.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 15, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
yeah the Jays have been real mediocre the last few years
okay
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 15, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
So sj10689 just posted that
the mariners aren’t sending any prospects to toronto and they’re sending Aumonte to Philly.
So it’s Cliff Lee straight up for Aumont, who is a big time prospect, bu there are concerns that he may end up in the bullpen.
this sounds like an awful awful trade. Why not just keep Lee for 2010?
I'm waiting until the deal is finally, erm, final.
The reports on who is going where have been different seemingly by the hour.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 14, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
right now, it looks like the Mariners might be getting Happ and/or Blanton as well.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
if that's true
then this seems omar awful.
i think omar needs to become an adjective
by Gina on Dec 14, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I keep saying it
Ruben Amaro is a bad GM who inherited a great roster. It might take another offseason or two before he really wrecks the Phillies long term, but I’m supremely confident it will happen. And then the Nationals will rule the NL East
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Yeah this one I just don't understand at all
like i thought the d-backs trade was bad, but that looks like highway robbery compared to this mess.
cjmulrain you're right
soon the phillies will be back on the dole, collecting revenue sharing as was the case in ’02, ’03, an ’05.
I hope I don't Omar my final tomorrow
Since I spent all day following all these moves
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 15, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
if you do then go to a bar and get Omarred
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 15, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
I hope I don't Omar my
three finals tomorrow
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Mine are easy
So I’m not that worried about omaring them. I still should be studying though.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Hah you're going to Omar it
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 15, 2009 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
Apparently we've taken it a step further
Omar is now both an adjective and a verb. That’s quite a bit of progress for one night.
Why limit the scope of such a great term
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 15, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Apparently the trade now looks like:
Phillies send Cliff Lee to Seattle for Tyson Gillies and Phillip Aumont
Toronto sends Roy Halladay to Philadelphia for Kyle Drabek, Travis D’Arnaud, and Michael Taylor
good
now someone please to be explaining to me why the phils did this. Why not keep Lee and add Halladay spending mostly prospects, if they really have a “window”?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 15, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
I would guess money
But is Lee really being paid too much to keep him for one season and collect draft picks?
best i can figure
they were trying to get the best return on investment they could once they realized there was no way they would be able to extend Lee’s contract. This would suggest that they see their window extending through the next 2-3 years
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 15, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
Or
they have inside information that their entire team is about to be acquired by the Boston Red Sox, and Theo Epstein just sneaked into philly in a bear suit to give Amaro his new marching orders.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 15, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
haha
i’m a big fan of storks too. Except when they bring babies.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 15, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
COmmoDORE
64!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 15, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
The M's are doing all this for one year of Lee?
doesn’t seem that smart
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
he's certainly going to test free agency
but maybe they think they can extend him
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 15, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
If it's just Gillies and that Canadian relief pitcher, it's a great move
First of all, they get one year of Lee for an absurdly cheap price. Second, the have a good chance of resigning him.
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Dec 15, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
According to BB-Reg's pre-2009 rankings
the Phillies gave up 7 of their top 10 prospects in the combined Lee & Halladay trades. That’s just a ridiculous haul. Could you imagine if Omar traded Mejia, Holt, Thole, Davis, Havens, Tejada, and Fernando for Halladay & basically Ben Francisco?
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Yeah
And they only had to pay Lee 8 million next year.
Unless they’re ABSOLUTELY stretched to their max financially, which I can understand if they’re at 140, this is just an awful awful deal. But if they knew they were going to be stretched to their max why didn’t they try to work out an extension with lee before finalizing that mid-season deal?
That's remarkable. Didn't they get a couple of prospects back, though?
Don’t forget they got a half season of Lee as well as the postseason from him in 2009. Helluva a gamble. We were damned close to back to back World Series titles for the Fillies.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 15, 2009 5:06 AM EST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
- The Cardinals Hall of Fame can now be found at Bill Clinton’s library in Arkansas (Huh?)
- Will Bryce Harper start the season with the Nationals?
- Mitch Mustain puts football behind him, signs reported rookie deal with White Sox
- Robinson Cano and Denzel Washington face off in Jay Leno’s Yankees trivia contest
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
