Stop Saying Omar Minaya Only Goes After Latino Players
by James Kannengieser on Dec 16, 2009 12:30 PM EST
138 comments
The "Omar Minaya only pursues Latino players" topic has appeared again this offseason and the propagators of this myth are out in full force. Perhaps it was brought on by the signings of Alex Cora, Henry Blanco and Elmer Dessens. Maybe embarrassing rubbish like this post is promoting it. Even the mainstream media has been involved, as Bill Madden of the Daily News, deserving winner of this year's J.G. Taylor Spink Award for excellence in baseball journalism, wrote the following in a recent column, only to have the word "Latin" later removed:
Mets? Did somebody say the Mets? They won't spend the money for Holliday, Bay or Lackey and apparently, they're only interested in signing low-budget Latin players...
It's sad that this topic still needs to be addressed. Looking at the racial makeup of the Mets 40-man roster, as provided by a comment from Mark last week, the Mets had 15 Latinos out of 39 players, or 38%. About 29% of MLB players are Latino, meaning the Mets have four more Latin American players on their roster than average. Wow, stop the presses! How many Latinos are presently on the World Champion Yankees' roster? Answer: 19 out of 37, good for 51%. This is irrefutable evidence that Brian Cashman only goes after Latino players. Let the Yankee fan outrage begin. Former Mariners GM Bill Bavasi signed Raul Ibanez, Carlos Silva and Adrian Beltre to free agent contracts in his short tenure, and traded for Miguel Olivo and Horacio Ramirez - he too must have only gone after Latinos!
There's more research to be done here I suppose, analyzing the racial breakdown of Mets trades, free agent contracts and the minor leagues under Omar. However, it's not worth mine or anyone's time indulging the uninformed masses who think a general manager would choose 1.5 WAR* Player A over 3.5 WAR Player B because Player A shares the same heritage.
* - If you like, substitute any metric or evaluator you think Omar and co. might use in lieu of WAR. The point remains the same.
Last winter, Omar's Mets were part of a blockbuster three team trade which included Mariners and Indians. In the biggest trade of his reign, at least in terms of player volume, he gave up four Latino players and received (gasp!) three white players in return. It had nothing to do with race. Omar wanted to upgrade the bullpen at seemingly any cost and he got his guy, J.J. Putz. Flawed evaluation of players? Almost certainly. Racial bias motivating a transaction? No, sorry. It's curious how transactions like this are conveniently ignored once the Omar racism watchdogs come out of their holes to spout absurdity. Usually, Oliver Perez, Moises Alou, Orlando Hernandez and Luis Castillo are brought up with nary a mention of Tim Redding, Scott Schoeneweis, Darren Oliver or Gary Sheffield.
If you think Omar Minaya only goes after "certain players" it's because you want to believe the poorly performing GM of your favorite baseball team favors one race over another. It's because you want to believe he has some sort of scheme to decrease the number of non-Latinos in baseball, or to increase money paid out to Latinos in this country. Criticizing his moves in the strict baseball context is not enough for you - it has to become personal, an assault on Omar's character. As always, you're free to have these beliefs, but you're flat-out wrong.
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Well put
This BS needs to be put to sleep. There are many real faults with Omar which need addressing and this nonsense just gets in the way.
I wish this would convince all these idiots out there to stop with this ridiculous argument
but logic finds no home in arguments involving race, no matter how incredibly stupid they may be. I applaud your effort though.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 16, 2009 12:38 PM EST reply actions
Nobody's saying that
But I’m certainly thinking it loudly!
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
If Omar signs Ryota Igarashi, we'll need just 3 more black players to meet MLB average.
That means, we can’t sign Bay or Holliday (or Sheets) because they are not black.
wait, what?
Is Ryoto Igarashi really a black guy?
I personally don’t see races, just individuals (it’s a gift).
blogs are weird
a 14 year old makes a dumb point and a torrent of adult reasoning, approbation, and even shocked disbelief rains down. i had a teacher who used to just shake his head and go, “Son, I love you for what you’ll one day be.”
(I understand that this one is about more than metsguy. Just in general.)
by letsgocyclones on Dec 16, 2009 12:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
New York times magazine article from 2005
I remembered reading this article a while ago in the New York Times Magazine (well worth reading about Omar’s plan again with the benefit of hindsight). It outlines how the Mets/Omar planned to find undervalued talent in Latin America (suggested as an equivalent to Billy Beane and the high OBP Moneyball guys), and to work harder to encourage Latino New Yorkers to come to the games – both of which seem very sensible. I don’t think that there is any suggestion that this would be at the expense of good players from elsewhere in the world, but it may be where this misconception about Omar’s preference for Latino players comes from.
I remember that angle
if not the exact article. I also recall hearing that Delgado was offended by the idea that this (some notion of hispanic solidarity) would in any way sway him as to what team he should be on, for example.
And there’s no truth to the rumor Omar insisted that the Mets former rightfielder change his name to Ryan Iglesia.
Can I rec this multiple times?
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
Here is my .02
Who gives a shit. Being latin, I could care less if the Mets were black, green, latin, oriental, or whatever……as long as they win. The problem is not the latin players. The problem is the endless parade of shit players we have to put up with (with the obvious exceptions duly noted). The problem is also the media, and the idiots who listen to the media.
I have a great deal of love for AA, and I like most people here. I am disappointed that this had to be a whole post on the subject because it has nothing to do with baseball, and now there will be yet another round (war) on this subject. There will always be someone around to bring this up. We don’t need to give those people any help.
I lobby for his to just go away.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
by fxcarden on Dec 16, 2009 1:00 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd
I made a similar point in a comment on some earlier thread — that I couldn’t care less where the Mets’ players came from, so long as they were good at baseball and the team won. Omar’s problem is signing shitty players.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 16, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Also, good post, James.
Rec to you as well.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 16, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think most people care
about player’s backgrounds, at least at AA. Nevertheless, the issue has been raised by some. Funny, I was reading on the Athletics Nation blog about someone surmising dopily that Beane is going for black players. Saying that you just care if players are good, however, doesn’t change the fact that the issue comes up. It’s tough to sweep ethnic issues under the rug. Whether it is Vic Power being traded by the yankees in the 1950s, to Milledge being dealt, to Elijah Dukes and the way he gets covered by the press, or Bradley.
So, Madden or whoever writes it. Others feel the need to refute it. Ben above posted about an article in New York Times magazine a few years ago about the Mets hoping to attract latino players and fans. That doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility. I recall the same line being bandied about at the time, and although I cannot recall where I heard this particular line, as I pointed out above, I heard that this rubbed Delgado the wrong way (may just have been hearsay, but supposedly he didn’t like the hey, come to the latino paradise pitch). The idea that Omar may use this as a selling point, to convince players to come here, may be confused by some for the idea that he is doing this to the exclusion of others, which does seem like easily refutable nonsense.
Although frankly if the issue just went away I wouldn’t mind. And yeah, i think we all agree Omar’s real problem is signing or trading for crappy players. Most people would have preferred he kept Castro and drop Schneider, i’d imagine.
You're confusing various things here
In the 50s, you could not dismiss racial considerations. Baseball was riven with race at the time, and I don’t think any transaction involving any black player was free of racial thinking, to one side or the other. And you can make a strong argument that Milledge and Dukes’ careers have been affected by their race (or racialized cultural notions), whether you like them or not.
Conversely, it’s been demonstrated that Omar’s team and Omar’s signings are not more Latin than the rest of MLB, which is becoming very very Latin. Did he think he might have an inside window on a Beane-ish way to find hidden value? No doubt. Does that mean he’s prioritizing Latin over talented, cost-effective, etc etc? That’s the part that gets so widely asserted, is demonstrably wrong, and drives us all up the wall.
And the Delgado thing was not, hey, come join our Latin party, it was Tony talking to him in an overly familiar way that made him think Tony thought he would be less of a businessman just because they shared a heritage. It wasn’t that they were constructing the happy Latin team and thought that would be a selling point.
I don't think its race that has negatively impacted Bradley or Dukes career nearly as much as their own decisions have
Dukes has been arrested for multiple violent crimes, and needs essentially a team babysitter to make sure he stays out of trouble. Bradley has to his credit managed to keep his trouble strictly on the field, but his anger makes him difficult for managers to deal with. Both players have proven to be a giant headache to any GM who is willing to take a chance on them despite their past behaviors. Regardless of your race, if you have issues with violence and a lack of self control, you’re going to be treated accordingly.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 16, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
not saying
they don’t bring it upon themselves, just that ethnicity will influence people’s reactions. Fairly unavoidable.
to some extent true, unfortunately
but these two aren’t great examples because they make it more than easy enough to criticise them based solely on their stupidity
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 17, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
not suggesting
Omar is George Weiss, just that, whatever era, there are ethnic issues, and they don’t go away by simply saying let’s not discuss this. It’s pretty clear that people do have a general bias in favor of their “group,” subliminally, no matter what their conscious beliefs.
http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/culturalissue1/a/bias304.htm
Well, the Mets would suck (and do suck) but it'd be more accurate.
You know what I mean.
Trying to reason with these people is pointless
But well done anyway
I make jokes about it
but really I just think he’s overvalues traits that latin players are sterotyped as having.
again...
putz, redding, schoenweis, sheffield… even fatty slow ungood latinos like, say, bengie. what do you mean?
by letsgocyclones on Dec 16, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
?
What might those be?
I know Caribbean players get a rep for being hackers, but I really don’t recall Omar signing a bunch of windmills to big stupid contracts. So, I am confused.
by Coolpapabell on Dec 16, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
speed, strong defense, athleticism, rather than unathletic mashers
A lot of times, latin, and a lot of times black players too, are characterized as all-glove, even if they’re awful defensively. Cora is sort of an example of this a lot of people seemed to think he was an all-glove type player in the same mold as a player like Valdez.
Great post James
Every time I talk to baseball with someone, that is sort of a litmus test that determines if this person is full of crap or not. Once they say “Well he will probably sign another latino player”, I start searching for a way to close the conversation politely, and continue on my way.
a guy at what used to be my local in brooklyn
insists that latin players get more injured more often than white players and that’s the mets’ problem. you can’t take risks on those guys, you know? i hate that guy.
by letsgocyclones on Dec 16, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
He only hires black managers though
Where will the madness end? With white people on the bottom, of course, as usual
Travis Hafner is made of gold
this comment immediately made me think of the song Rockin the Suburbs by Ben Folds
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 16, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
let me tell y'all what its like
being male middle class and white, its a bitch if you don’t believe, listen up to my new CD
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 16, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
If there's a bias
it’s not discriminatory. I think he does look out for Latino players a bit, because he wants those unappreciated and talented to have a shot, like him. I’ve always admired that; it’s not what’s what’s wrong with the Mets.
good point
but to a lot of people, bias = discrimination. even the supreme court has found benign racial bias to be discriminatory. omar has an uphill battle on this one.
i know you said "if there's a bias"
but why even say that? is there any evidence that there is a bias, or that it would have anything to do with those players being “like him,” as opposed to, say, there are good deals to be had in Latin America. would anyone perceive this “bias” in the least if Omar wasn’t latin? nope. i’m not willing to give an inch on this one.
by letsgocyclones on Dec 16, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
the thing is...
all coaches and GMs like to bring in “their guys.” So if Omar came up scouting Latin America and he feels more comfortable than other GMs working down there and speaking the language, etc. why would this be a bad thing?
The problem is when white GMs bring in a bad Latino player, people say, “GM X brought in a bad player.” When Omar does it, people say “Latino GM Omar Minaya brough in a bad Latino player.”
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 16, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
So if Omar came up scouting Latin America and he feels more comfortable than other GMs working down there and speaking the language, etc. why would this be a bad thing?
The thing is, why play this game without a speck of evidence that this is the case? I do think it’s a little patronizing. I’m not calling out you or Sam, but I do think that’s a weird thing to say.
by letsgocyclones on Dec 16, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I should clarify
what makes it weird isn’t racial bias inherent in the statement. what makes it weird is that we’re having a discussion based on nothing solely because omar is latino.
by letsgocyclones on Dec 16, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
you're wrong in this case
Omar did come up scouting Latin America. That was his first job with the Texas Rangers. I mention that not because Omar’s Latino, but because it’s a fact. If some white dude started his career scouting in Japan, I would expect him to be more comfortable scouting Japan as a GM than someone who didn’t.
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 16, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
I would agree with that.
He has a slight advantage in that area over someone else because he has more familiarity with it, why wouldn’t he choose to use it?
Travis Hafner is made of gold
i know what you mean
but if the white gm didn’t actually sign a disproportionate number of japanese players, then…?
by letsgocyclones on Dec 16, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
everyone's in agreement here
no one in these comments is saying “omar signs too many latin players”
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 16, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Something needs to be done
about all those white GMs going after white players.
and the home of the... JETS!!!
Absolutely true, now just bring in Pujols, King Felix, and that Polak Tulowitzki,
Omar has been targeting and bringing Latin players. He stated this as part of a strategy to improve the Mets at the
press conference when he was named GM, look it up. He said that (in part):
“we will be looking to bring in Latin players to appeal to the huge market of Hispanic baseball fans, which live in the NY area.” Personally, I don’t care. This has nothing to do with racial bias, only a way of marketing to a particular segment or audience.
"that Polak [sic] Tulowitzki"
classy.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 16, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
Polak is the Polish spelling
Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?
Mea culpa.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 16, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Still stand by my "classy" remark, tho.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 16, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Just for completeness,
Polak only refers to a Polish man while a Polish woman would be a Polka. I support your “classy” remark because there was no good reason for adding “Polak” to his original comment.
the number one issue facing the Mets is finding that one guy who’s going to say "get on my shoulders and ride me to the championship."
Yep.
It certainly isn’t common knowledge.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 16, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently
My great great ancestors were Polish nobility, even fighting on horseback back in the day.
The only problem is that they were still fighting the Nazis on horseback in the 1930’s.
Needless to say I am of no more nobility. But hey Frederic Chopin is da shnaz, right!? I mean the last part actually.
Travis Hafner is made of gold
man was that a one sided battle
And despite his less than friendly worldview, gotta give Chopin credit for being quite a composer.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 16, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
I know you guys are joking
but being proud of my Japanese-Polish heritage, I have to point out that while the Polish did have horses still in service during WWII they were used as a means of moving infantry and were dismounted before any fighting actually began, this was actually common as the German’s relied more on horses than motorized vechicles during the Blitz.
the number one issue facing the Mets is finding that one guy who’s going to say "get on my shoulders and ride me to the championship."
These were the sort of cool things I learned while in Poland last year.
Facts like this don’t generally make it into the jokes we heard/told on the playground.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 16, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
im aware it did not go down in that sort of comical fashion,
but the mental image of knights in armor with lances charging tanks amuses me greatly regradless of its historical accuracy (of which there is none).
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 16, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
damn
I was gonna point that out. The “highly mechanized German war machine” is mostly a myth.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
That is true
But the myth does have its root in fact, albeit very loosely, in that a cavalry unit, fighting from horseback with guns against infantry, was massacred by a German tank unit which it didn’t know was there. I’m pretty sure that’s where this all comes from.
Does he really have a less than friendly worldview?
I have only heard glowing things about the poor TB ridden man, but I have also not really been anywhere in the world
Travis Hafner is made of gold
That was meant for KeithMoustache
and yeah I was just joshin, Poland is great.
Travis Hafner is made of gold
sorry had chopin and someone else mixed up
im a bit rusty on my classical composers
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 16, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I was thinking that
Wagner would not be a good poster on this site
Travis Hafner is made of gold
by Super Mario on Dec 17, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
yup thats the one
thanks for the assist, my brain is turning to mush at this point in the semester
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 17, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
Chopin is awesome
I’m in awe of anyone who can play Revolutionary Etude in C Minor. Just unbelievable.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
That one
is absolutely ridiculous. Some of the Polonaises are pretty nuts too, but that one definitely takes the technique cake
Travis Hafner is made of gold
by Super Mario on Dec 17, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Just for anyone whose never seen someone play it
This is absolutely amazing. Makes me wish I had taken piano lessons or learned to play some instrument when I was younger.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
And yes, Mr. Rogers is in the video.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
Did you know,
that the lovely Stefanie Powers of Hart to Hart and the Girl from U.N.C.L.E. tv fame is of Polish
descent?
James ....
I appreciate you fighting the good fight over on Metsmerized… but I implore you to stop reading it before you lose your sanity … or your soul. I used to read there often for the unintentional comedy but I’m not going to anymore after that post.
I read a comment someone wrote on mlb.com about
the players Omar DFA’ed.He used the fact that the Mets only DFa’d white players, Putz, Reed, Sullivan, Redding, and another player, that this proved that Omar was racist. This started a whole debate where most people were agreeing with this idiot. I couldn’t help but think that these players were DFA’d because they suck. Do Mets fans really want a team with Sullivan and Reed on it. Coincidentally this person’s screen name was OMARISRACIST.
by Delgado on Dec 16, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Laughed out loud
At that last sentence.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 16, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
That's the "another player" that Delgado couldn't remember.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Most fans have problems with guys like
Cora, Santos, Livan Hernandez, Elmer Dessens and Anderson Hernandez for one reason: they are below average major leaguers in every way. End of story.
The lack of african american players in MLB is another problem altogether. Do the Mets have any decent black players in the minors right now? Who was the last black player they drafted that made the majors? Jay Payton? I remember there was another guy, Brian Cole, that was on his way, but he died in a car accident.
the lack of African American players in baseball is such a manufactured issue, IMO
Yes, there is a far smaller percentage of blacks in the Majors now than there were at their peak back in the 70’s, but it’s not like there’s any racial bigotry that’s keeping them out. Blacks athletes have more opportunities in other sports than they did in the 70’s and make up a smaller percentage of the overall population now than they did 30 years ago. I don’t have the actual numbers, but I know that the percentage of blacks in MLB is within a point or two of their percentage of the overall populations. Meanwhile, blacks make up an incredibly large percentage of the NBA & NFL, especially when compared to the percentages from the 70’s.
I understand that baseball suffers more than any other sport from its history of bigotry. I also understand that some of the best athletes in the country are coming from the inner cities, and baseball wants to attract them. But until someone shows me any evidence that it’s baseball keeping these kids out and not that they are choosing other sports, I’m not going to be worried about it.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
by cjmulrain on Dec 17, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
just to clarify
I fully support things like the RBI Program – I think part of the reason inner city kids aren’t playing baseball is because it’s too expensive for them, and I love that MLB is making an effort to get those kids involved in the sport. But I love it because I want the best athletes to play my favorite sport, not because I think baseball needs more blacks for equality purposes or anything like that.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
That's what I mean
it’s a problem across MLB, but the Mets have probably been even worse than most, since Milledge is the only African American player of their’s to make the majors in the last 10 years or so.
That RBI program is supposedly helping, but it probably will take time.
But I mean it's not like we've intentionally consistently passed over African-American players or something
So I’m not sure what we’ve been even worse at.
Not intentionally
But they have passed over some very good African American players in the draft. Just off the top of my head, Ryan Howard, Rollins, Chone Figgins back in ’97.
by Mackey Sasser on Dec 16, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
But I mean those were 8-10 years ago
and it’s not like we only pass over black players, we’ve passed over talented players of every race imaginable.,
call me a racist
but of Phillies that we’ve passed over in the draft, Chase Utley bothers me way more than Ryan Howard or Jimmy Rollins
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Once upon a time,
Agee, Jones, Clendenon, Foy, Charles, Gooden, Strawberry, Milner, Young,Brooks, Mitchell, et al.. it goes back to doc and straw having off-field issues.
Can't teach an old dog new tricks, and all of that.
In the face of very obvious evidence, the people who say he’s a racist, and let’s that racism cloud his judgment in signing players are going to keep on saying that.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2009 7:51 PM EST reply actions
Some random comments
1) First and foremost, rec to you, James, on an excellent piece.
2) Not to be overly technical, but isn’t racism an incorrect term re Latinos? There are Latinos with light skin and dark skin as well. IMO the correct term should be “bigotry.”
3) One issue not discussed so far is the fact that Omar has also made a point in hiring Latinos in non player positions. Not just Bernarzard, but also hirng Rey Ramirez as trainer and even the fact that Banco Popular was the bank sponsor of the team (pre Citi). Please note — I am not criticizing this; just as with the on field talent, the bottom line is actual performance and not where you came from. I don’t know how much that has played into some people’s thinking.
4) Finally, if it is possible, I’d like to give a rec to the entire AA community for this thread. Not merely for saying racism is bad, but for openly discussing issues. The easy way out would be the “some of my best friends…” type of comment, which in its own way is just as bad. There is nobody here calling anybody a bigot for wanting to get rid of Omar (or Jerry, for that matter). The people who don’t like them do so because they think they’re doing a bad job, and they don’t get defensive when they’re criticized. Bravo to all.
Not to be overly technical, but isn’t racism an incorrect term re Latinos? There are Latinos with light skin and dark skin as well.
Well, since defining the concept of “race” is nebulous and arbitrary, it’s pretty hard to say that it’s absolutely applicable or inapplicable in any usage, never mind this particular instance. One thing to keep in mind is that “race” has much less to do with skin color than it has to do with 19th century European taxonomists.
Applying the concept of 'race' to Hispanics, in general, is especially dubious
since it’s such a large, all-encompassing umbrella term that, realistically, contains within it a plethora of distinct, specific races- all of the various indigenous Indians of the area, just for starters.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
There is a big "racism" issue
with black Dominicans who really, really do not like to be called black. Because it makes them seem Haitian. Is it racist to say it, or to be offended by it? Interesting question.
Wait are you asking if it's racist for them to feel that way?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Hmmm, not exactly
because ‘black’ is a social construction, but I do think it’s interesting that the issue is so important on that island. Though in that case it’s because Haiti is a self-proclaimed ‘black republic’.
I can understand it
My family immigrated here from Jamaica in the 60s and a lot of the older generation doesn’t like being referred to as African-American/Black-American because to them it insinuates they’re descendant from the Africans who were brought here as slaves and it ignores their Jamaican heritage.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
that one always seemed strange to me
why were hispanics given their own racial group? They speak a European language and are as much descended from Europeans as Americans or Canadians are. Ok, so they don’t speak English, but neither did Germans. Ok, they have darker skin on average than north European peoples, but so do Italians.
Basically, what I’m saying is, what makes a Puerto Rican or a Venezuelan any more different from an Irish-American than an Italian is? It just seems like a silly distinction, especially when you consider the vast differences in culture and even physical appearance between hispanics of different regions (Dominicans, Cubans, Argentinians, etc.)
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
im pretty sure on the census
being hispanic or non is considered an ethnicity not a race. so they ask them to check hispanic or non-hispanic plus a race.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Remember this one?
Bartolo Colon for Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore
Omar traded 2 white guys and a black guy for a shitty Latino player
A "Zeile" for avoiding outs
His hand was forced.
The Expos were facing contraction at the time. Loria had ‘sold’ the team to MLB, who controlled the finances. Here’s another trade: Endy Chavez, Maikel Cleto, Ezequiel Carrera, and others for JJ Putz and Jeremy Reed. I guess by trading 3 Latinos for 2 white guys, Omar proved he’s not a racist after all.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 17, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously, you're young, but there's no excuse for this
I guess you were probably like 7 when that trade was made, but it’s an extreme case, and anyone who discusses it (intelligently) knows it’s not a normal case. It has exactly nothing to do with your theory. If you knew the situation, you could discuss what he did and what his other options might have been, but either you don’t know what the situation was or you like to look dumb.
Is anything in all this conversation making you consider that posturing as a know-it-all isn’t the way to get anywhere good in life, or are you just going to double down?
Young isn't really an excuse.
I mean, 14 isn’t really young or anything. I wasn’t so dumb when I was 14…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
Neither was I
I mean there’s just not knowing, and then there’s being intentional antagonistic. Most kids his age I’ve seen on sports boards may be like that at first but at the same time they try to understand more advanced modes of thoughts and soak it up, usually because they want acceptance.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
i don't see why it's dumb that
1) My opinion is that Omar Minaya is a racist.
2) My opinion is that Jose Reyes should, in the words of Evan, “STFU and GTFO”
A "Zeile" for avoiding outs
Because it is dumb?
Because there’s no evidence for your first opinion, like we’ve said he’s signed plenty of crappy white players and black players, marlon anderson anyone? And your second opinion by itself isn’t dumb, it’s the fact you seem to think it’s somehow detrimental to the team. And because contrary to popular belief opinions do need to have a legitimate basis in reality if you want them to get any respect.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
With regard to the first :
If your opinion isn’t based in reality, it’s a dumb opinion.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 17, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
and that can be related to the second one as well
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Anyone is entitled to an opinion, but based on the amount of truth/fact said opinions are grounded in, opinions can be incorrect.
I can have the opinion that the Earth is flat, and believe it with every ounce of my will. Science has, however, proven that the Earth is indeed round, and not flat. Thus, if I continue believing said opinion, my opinion is incorrect.
‘Dumb’ isn’t the proper word though, you are right. ‘Idiotic’ is more apt. An idiot is defined as an individual who acts in an uneducated manner. In the face of a great deal of supporting evidence, the myths that: (A) Omar Minaya signs a great preponderance of Hispanic players, playing to his own personal biases at the cost of the collective team, or that (B) Jose Reyes, as a player on the Mets, has contributed a net negative worth, as opposed to a net positive worth have been debunked, multiple times. You continue to insist, however, that both are true. In doing so, you are acting in an uneducated manner- that is, you are directly ignoring conclusive empirical evidence and substituting it with anecdotal evidence. By acting in an uneducated manner, your opinions are idiotic, or you are acting like an idiot (take your pick; I prefer the former).
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
He also traded
Vargas, Chavez, Carrerra and Cleto for 3 really crappy white guys.
So Id say he’s made amends.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
STFU and GTFO
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/12/5/1186984/my-amazing-ly-bad-song-about-why
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
After 4 years of ineptitude Phillips was traded for a player to be named by Cleveland to Cincy
don’t get me wrong I like Phillips today, but his highlights for the Indians were several plays with the glove and lots of childish acts. Remember Lastings Milledge (now you got the picture). By the
way Milledge was better at that young age. Okay after 5 or 6 years he developed into a very fine player. Moreover, in 2007 you could’ve had Cliff Lee and his 6.70 or so ERA for a bag of balls.
Orange or otherwise. Sizemore is a fine player. Colon was one of abut 3 or 4 best starters in baseball during the very late 90’s an early 00’s. He won 20 games at leat twice. When was the last time any MET pitcher won 20 games, think music for the answer.
Can't we all just agree
Omar likes crappy players of all races.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I think I'm going to decry the lack of Jews on the team, and Omar's obvious biases against them!
There hasn’t been a Jew on the team since, what, the late, “great” Shawn Green?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2009 9:23 PM EST reply actions
Wasn't Shoenweiss Jewish?
I totally just butchered his name.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Schoeneweis
Ah, yes, good ol’ Schoeneweis. He was.
That doesn’t fix our ‘problem’ currently, though, and Omar’s biases and prejudices and hate, and whatever applicable adjectives are still very, very clear. (And, if this somehow prompts Omar to sign Marquis, I am revoking his ‘Jewish Card’.)
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Newhan?
I could fill the Jewish hole, if needed.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
He is a "Jews-forJesus" Jew (ie, a Christian)
On Wikipedia, he says that he considers himself Jewish, but that he believes Jesus to be the messianic figure Christians believe him to be. When “membership” in one camp diametrically opposes “membership” in the other camp, you can’t be both.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
oh god, why must you invoke the name Newhan
he was truly horrible
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 18, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
Better or worse than the Michael Tuckers of the world? Or how about the Chris Aguleras?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 18, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
At least Aguila only played a few games for us.
Newhan hung on all season long.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 18, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Part of this...
started with the concept that signing Pedro was going to have every future Dominican superstar signing with the Mets. Omar and the Mets did actually play that up in a retrospectively embarrassing way.
And, as someone else posted, Delgago gave a big “Eff you” to the Mets and rather publicly blasted Omar et al for trying to play up the “latin paysan” routine in getting him to sign. That also was embarrassing to the franchise, and not only embarrassing, but it cost the Mets, because Omar had to trade for Delgado later because he failed to sign him as a result of that botched negotiation.
I agree with what most everyone has said, I could give a crap about the makeup of the Mets as long as the team wins.
But in fairness, Omar brought some of this on himself way back when by overselling the concept that he was going to open up a special pipeline of untapped latin talent to the Mets.
Basically, Omar is not very savvy in the public relations department. To put it mildly.
And I agree with Fxcarden, I’d rather just ignore this topic from now on and hope it goes away. Along with Omar.
What things is Omar savvy in?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
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