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The Molina Gambit

(bumped from fanposts. --eric)

The current market for catchers is moving about as fast as Bengie Molina trying to score from third on a medium-deep fly ball.  According to the parenthetical reference in this article by SI's John Heyman, "word is" Molina is in search of a three year $20 million deal.  The only team known to be connected to Molina in any significant way so far is the Mets.  However, according to many sources, including Heyman, the two sides are far apart in negotiations.  John Paul Morosi agrees as well, and even goes on to speculate that the entire remaining market for catchers is waiting to see where Molina lands before making their own decisions, specifically mentioning Rod Barajas, Yorvit Torrealba, and Jose Molina.

Star-divide

Mets fans may not agree on everything, but one thing we seem to be uniting over right now is our absolute distaste for Bengie Molina.  Checking comments sections around all areas of the interwebz, you find all sorts of anti-Molina Mets chatter, both cogent criticisms of Molina, and hilarious gems, like this one from the comments section of the  MLBTradeRumors post linking Morosi's article:

OmirSantos said...

If the mets over pay on YET another over the hill declining veteran, I will kill myself. One year plus a very easy vesting option is all he gets, three years guarenteed when Thole could be our catcher next season, would be insane.

PLEASE DONT GIVE HIM THREE

Im fine with 1yr + option...

December 19, 2009 at 03:00 PM

For once, Omir, even we here at Amazin' Avenue feel some sympathy for you (just to be clear, there is no reason to believe this was actually Omir Santos, it was simply a comment from a user with the registered screen name "OmirSantos").  But aside from all the obvious reasons why no one wants to see Bengie in Orange and Blue (except apparently Omar and Bengie), Omir actually makes an interesting point here.  On a one year deal, would Molina really be that terrible?

If the catcher market is really moving as slowly as Morosi suggests, and Molina's not lowering his contract demands, this could turn out very similar to a situation we saw played out last year.  The player in question was Bobby Abreu, who went into the offseason seeking a three year deal worth as much as $30 million.  He held firm to his demands deep into the winter, and wound up settling for a one year, $5 million deal.  He went on to put up a .367 wOBA paired with below average defense, making him a 2.5 WAR player, easily the bargain of the offseason.  

So what if the same thing that happened to Abreu last year happens to Molina?  Granted Molina's not nearly as good a total package as Abreu, his starting price is also $10 million lower.  What if Molina holds his demands firm for too long?  What happens if the other catchers start panicking around the end of January, and taking the best offer on the table?  Is that really a reason to walk away now?  Or is it just more reason to hang around the fringe until the market inevitably bottoms out or he signs elsewhere first?  If no one takes him, could he actually wind up signing a deal for one year and something in the neighborhood of $3 million?  I dare say a deal like that would be more than acceptable, it might even be a bargain.

These are questions that may not be getting asked enough, especially considering how well one year of solid veteran catching could serve the Mets' needs.  The biggest problems with Molina are his age and rapidly declining skills, but in the short term, he still projects at least as well as any catcher on the market.  With a defensive backup like Henry Blanco, an offensive replacement waiting in the minors in Josh Thole, and possibly another defensive replacement in the minors in Omir Santos, that seems like a nice little saftey-net of depth in the short term.  Based on CHONE's R/150, Molina (-15) does in fact project slightly better than Barajas (-19), Torrealba (-21) or Santos (-26), and is also as durable as any option in that group as well, despite his age.  His defense may lack, but that's the exact skill you can best leverage using Blanco as a backup.

Looked at this way, playing the market around Molina may actually be a really savvy move for the Mets right now, if executed properly.  They have the luxury and the leverage of being the only team seriously involved, as well as having three catchers who are slightly better than replacement level in Santos, Blanco, and Thole.  It seems like the thing to do here, rather than completely look away from Molina, might be to keep him in the cross-hairs, but remain super patient, and very willing to let him go somewhere else if another organization is foolish enough to meet his demands.  If the Mets wind up empty handed, so be it.  None of the other potential upgrades are going to make a huge impact anyway.  Even if missing out on Barajas and Torrealba in favor of Thole, Santos, and Blanco leaves you a little worse for the wear, the potential payoff is probably well worth the gamble.  If the gambit works out, as far as short term upgrades go, pairing Molina and a hitter like Bay could be fairly effective in re-creating the offensive glory the team experienced prior to 2009 without drastically over-committing to any one or more players.  Then there's just the problems of defense and pitching....

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

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I'd prefer Barajas to Molina, but on a one year deal I'd be fine with signing him (as long as it doesn't come at the expense of another move).

I don’t want to see a multi-year offer to any catcher with Thole nearly ready and a potentially loaded catchers market next year. In the end, I just want to see whomever is the Mets backstop this year only locked up for a year.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 19, 2009 6:12 PM EST reply actions  

There are a lot of parallels with Dunn, Abreu, and Burrell last year

And Barajas, Molina, and Torrealba this year and the way the market is looking. Abreu way overplayed his hand, and wound up going super cheap. If Molina winds up signing for one year and half his initial yearly asking price like Abreu did, he really could be kind of a steal.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 19, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't know why it is, but very few people seem to realize Molina is barely replacement level.

Once you subtract for baserunning, defense, and age-related decline, Molina is essentially worthless.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 19, 2009 9:19 PM EST reply actions  

His baserunning is terrible

But you really can’t count it against him as much as it seems, since replacement level catchers are not “average” baserunners. Offensively he projects better than any of the other free agents, and while his raw defense may not be great, he’s handled some excellent young pitching staffs well. Its obviously not possible to quantify that, but its the same type of thing you have to count against Thole and Santos. Even if you take the -3.4 defensive runs (Driveline Mechanics) and a few runs for baserunning (He’s about -5 compared to average, but probably more like -2 or -3 compared to average for catchers), he would have been >1 WAR in 2009 and by the CHONE projections figures to be roughly 1 WAR again in 2010.

Also, this is a situation where the shortcomings of “replacement level” evaluation comes into play. Its easy to talk about the frequency of available “replacement level” outfielders or corner infielders, but not so with catchers. In this case, I think its better to consider straight opportunity cost rather than replacement level. Is a 1-year $2 million deal that significant an opportunity cost for a 1-year $3.5 million deal for Molina? If that’s the choice, as much as it pains me, I do think I take Molina. In a vacuum Barajas does project better, but taking the gamble on Molina’s skillset, which while shallow is fairly dependable (contact and power), and adding to it his resume as a receiver, unquantifiable as it is, seems perfectly prudent to me if his cost comes down as much as it seems like its primed to.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 19, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

This is just a question about the base running vs average catcher

Shouldn’t that already be accounted for in the positional adjustment?

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 20, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Sure

But when you talk about a catcher having “X” EqBRR, and working that into a RAR value, that assumes replacement level for all players is average baserunning, but that’s not the case with catchers. For example, Molina and “Replacement Catcher” both get the same position adjustment per game, but where Molina’s EqBRR is something like -4.5, “replacement catcher’s” is something like -2, not 0. This is probably more unique to catcher than other “slow runner” positions like first base, since there are more average baserunners who could provide replacement level production at first base, but very few average baserunners who could provide replacement level production at catcher.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 20, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Just to expand the argument

CHONE projects him for a .298 wOBA, and after factoring baserunning, about 0.7 or 0.8 WAR. He was about 1.2 WAR after factoring the same in 2009, so that decline seems about right for a 35 year old catcher. But there’s more to consider here that is tangible. We’re not talking about a catcher showing signs of actual decline in skills or durability. He was 9th amongst catchers in games played. He doesn’t appear to be losing batspeed. His HR/FB was actually exactly the same as his career rate, 8.8%. Its hard to talk about his defense in this way, since there isn’t much usable data before 2009, but aside from years on earth, there isn’t much that stands out about his components and screams “decline,” he just wasn’t that skilled to begin with. He may actually be capable of greater offensive output than the CHONE projection gives him credit for.

In addition to that, even though the intangible aspects of receivership are completely unquantifiable, one thing that may be quantifiable is a durable catcher’s effect on a pitching staff. I haven’t done the research, but it would be theoretically possible to talk about pitcher performance relative to preseason projections for pitchers who generally threw to the same catcher or couple catchers, as opposed to pitchers, like those on the Mets, who have been throwing to a plethora of different catchers over the course of the season. More than poor production, this was my problem with the “Brian Schneider Era,” that it seemed like every three trips through the rotation, the staff would have to get used to a new receiver. Schneider, Castro, Cancel, Cassanova, Santos, that other unrelated Molina, etc. Bengie’s skills may be unimpressive, but his combination of durability and short term offensive projection, which may in fact sell him short, make him a better option than I think a lot of people realize, but only if the cost is as I’m speculating, something in the 1-year <$5 million range.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 19, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

as i've grown accustomed to the idea of having to deal with molina

i feel happy thinking about a one-year deal for him now (as opposed to the three he wants)

by clip on Dec 19, 2009 9:57 PM EST reply actions  

M, A, U, E, R

spells Mauer. Don’t let a Molina spoil my dream.

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Dec 19, 2009 10:48 PM EST reply actions  

Please ..

the Twins will never let Mauer go.

"Never throw a slider to The Glider."

- Ed Charles, No. 5

by The Glider on Dec 20, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

They won't have a choice in about 10 months, so they better be all over extending him asap.

His extensions gonna cost ALOT. As he nears the market, his price tag is only gonna go up. He’s gonna have to take a hell of a discount for the Twins to re-sign him.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 20, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

If we got him

How much do you think he would cost?

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Dec 21, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say a comparable contract to what Tex got

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Two times AL MVP

Hmm, Tex contract and more. guy is the prototypical definition of a stud. When u look up the word stud in the dictionary there are no words, only a picture of this dude.

On the downside, he is a catcher and he has had injuries. He is better in the AL where he can take 2 days per week DHing.

Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.

by scott from peekskill on Dec 21, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He'll most likely be a first baseman within 5 years.

Not that he couldn’t catch, but that’ll significantly shorten his career, most likely. He’s a big dude.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Dec 21, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

He's a big dude with serious back problems

But even at first base, unless for some reason his defense was atrocious, I imagine he’d be a 5 WAR player.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe DeMayo says the Mariners are interested in Molina

Which means Jack Zdurencik is interested in Molina.

Thus, a hole has ripped in the space time continuum.

by Syler on Dec 19, 2009 11:59 PM EST reply actions  

Now Jack's just messing with us.

He’s trying to press Omar into focusing on Molina while the M’s pursue someone else.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 20, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

sure, they're interested in him

as Special adviser to the ballpark food people

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Dec 20, 2009 6:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Is that Omir actually saying that?

That’s pretty wacky, I think. You very rarely hear ballplayers criticizing each other.

On a related note, looking at the link to his page there, the headline says, “@TommyDeeTKB please let me know if you have it, I wanna see it”. At first, I thought that said Tommy Lee. That would have changed the entire meaning of that in a very bad way…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2009 12:14 AM EST reply actions  

No no

Its from the MLBtraderumors comments section, its just someone with the screen name “OmirSantos”

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 20, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh wow I was definitely confused by that

I thought maybe you were joking that Omir had actually said it.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 20, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I edited the post so its hopefully a bit more clear now

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 20, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay, alright.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

My bad, I reread it and I did't make that clear as I'd thought

Been a little sick the last few days, feel free to attribute that to why I decided to write a post favorably about Bengie if you’d like as well, lol.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 20, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Cause the mets don't want apparently REALLY don't want Castro

We traded him to save 2 million, and then spent more than that to replace him.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 20, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Castro was physically prepared or wanted to start

He could only be the backup and couldn’t start for any extended period of time when the starter was injured—at least that was the impression I got. He still has value as a backup, but the drawback is you have to promote the 3rd string catcher if the 1st string catcher goes down. Maybe I’m wrong but it seems to be the only logical explanation to his career.

by DoghouseBlues on Dec 20, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it was more that he knew he couldn't handle a starter's role

and made no bones about it. That didn’t earn him any love in a game where you’re supposed to run out onto the field with a smile on your face following a quadruple amputation.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 21, 2009 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

A few thoughts on Molina

He can hit for power… and thats pretty much it. Everything else is terrible and he’ll be a rally killer most at-bats… you can bank on that.

His defense is closing in on sub-par, especially compared to Santos.

The real reason the Mets are interested in him is his play calling ability. SF has a fantastic core of young pitchers performing well the last two years and Bengie in the last 5 years has caught Roy Halladay, AJ Burnett, Randy Johnson, Matt Cain, not to mention Bartolo Colon and Lincecum in their Cy Young seasons. Bengie clearly knows how to handle a staff. Mets should definitely try and get Bengie as an advisor whenever he retires.

by MLB DW on Dec 21, 2009 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

molina for pitching coach?

i agree with you, he does seem to do well settling pitchers down and calls a good game. If only he had other discernible talents…

by KeithsMoustache on Dec 21, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

There are two other things he does well

1) Has a strong contact rate. Its not a skill typically associated with power, but his K% has been below 14% in each of his full seasons except for one.

2) He’s very durable. He’s played at least 130 games each of the last three years, and only once since 2002 has he played fewer than 119. No Mets catcher has caught that many games since Mike Piazza caught 121 games all the way back in 2002. This is something that gets overlooked a bit I think. We may not be able to say much about how he “handles a pitching staff” of much scientific value, but there is something to be said for a pitching staff being able to throw to the same guy in a large percentage of his starts. I’m not sure exactly what it is that can be said, but it would be an interesting study.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 21, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

The 4.14 team FIP the Mets had in 2002 was the best mark they’ve put up in any year since, with the exception of 2005’s 3.98, when they had a rotation fronted by Pedro. Pedro’s 2005 was probably the best single season pitching performance the team has had all decade, and that staff was also much deeper than the Al Leiter fronted staff of 2002. This isn’t really conclusive, but it is interesting.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 21, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

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