Phillies going for Polanco
From Ken Rosenthal. Apparently they want him to play 3B.
about 2 years ago
Andrew McCarthy
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You mean THIS particular off-season?
… as compared to the other off-seasons.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I don't really see why they need to replace Feliz. It's not like he played poorly.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 2, 2009 11:48 PM EST reply actions
Who had a decent year, whom they can very easily re-sign, for a fraction of the contract he had been on the books for, previously.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 3, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Polanco isn't much better than Feliz
Offensively, Polanco hit for a slightly better average, but Felix hit a few more home runs. Feliz drove in about 10 more RBI, and the two of them walked exactly the same amount, pretty much (Polanco has one more walk). Felix struck out a bit more than Polanco, about twenty more times, but also played in almost ten more games than Polanco. Feliz has been a much more consistent fielder at third, as opposed to Polanco, who’s FP% jumps around a bit, since he’s played at third for some teams at certain points, and hasn’t played there for others. Overall, there’s no doubt that Polanco is the better player, sure. Feliz is probably more cost effective than Polanco, because Polanco is seemingly in more demand.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 3, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Eh
Just if you’re going to bring up the fact Feliz played in ten more games as defense for Feliz’s more strike outs shouldn’t it count against him in terms of his fewer walks? Also this is why rate stats exist, Polanco’s obp is 30 points higher than Feliz’s.
And Polanco’s fielding percentage probably jumps around more because 1. 2nd base is a harder position 2. Fielding percentage isn’t a very effective stat. Feliz is a solid fielder, Polanco is a much better one and at a harder position, and can fill in at multiple positions and be an above average fielder.
I will argue to the day I die that 2nd isn't harder than 3rd
and even if it is technically harder because you need more range, there’s usually less errors b/c a) balls aren’t hit as hard at 2nd basemen, and b) it’s a much easier throw.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Yeah I think they're actually considered even
in stats that take positional adjustments into account, like WAR and such.
Like I said, Polanco is the better player. I don't think he's all that much better.
They’re paying Polanco $6 million dollars a year, for three years. I think they probably could have signed Feliz maybe $4/5 million for two, maybe even one, because he’s getting old, and everyone knows it. Like Castillo and Hudson, I don’t think that there’s that drastic of a difference between the two of them to go after the slightly better of the two, who is going to be the clearly more expensive of the two. That’s just my philosophy, anyway.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 3, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I applaud them
They continue to improve their team notwithstanding their great successes over the last three years. Polanco would be a great fit for that team. And they still have the parts to go out and get Halladay …. though I don’t think they have the money to sign him — and still Lee and Rollins who will be free agents after 2010. And Howard is coming up for a contract, I believe. Even if they don’t get Halladay, they have Drabek coming up and I think Hamels will bounce back and have a great year next year.
Ugh.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Phils interested in Polanco and Figgins
Red Sox might move Pedroia to SS, are interested in Polanco and Adam Everett.
Mets will end up with Alex Cora and Luis Castilo. Good night.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 3, 2009 12:29 AM EST reply actions
don't forget Bengie Molina, Jon Garland, and Jose Guillen.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Are we going to do anything right this season?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
But doesn't that diminish his value?
Placido Polanco is a nice player, but doesn’t much of his value stem from the fact that he’s an above-average offensive second baseman? If you move him to third, a traditional power spot, he doesn’t look as undervalued. Granted he’d be replacing a guy that couldn’t get on base, but Feliz is a good fielder. I’m sure Polanco could make the transition, but then I don’t think he’d be a 3 win player as Fangraphs has projected him to be.
He's probably a solid upgrade over Feliz
So even if his value is decreased his team value is increased. Plus if his defense at third is better than at second that will make up for some of the value, so really it mostly depends on what they pay him.
If nothing else the Phillies are a good example of being able to build/sustain a team without a reliance on “false hustle”… so what’s Omars excuse.
Good point
Just going by WAR, Polanco is likely to be an upgrade over Feliz even if his own value comes down a peg. I guess my point is that it makes it a somewhat less impressive signing, but perhaps I’m just picking nits.
the positional adjustments are the same for 3B and 2B
the only thing that could hurt Polanco is the difficulty in changing positions
Wow
I like Polanco a lot but I’d be annoyed if the Mets gave him 3 years, unless it’s for cheap.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 3, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
that's actually not bad for someone who will be worth 2.5 wins per year, most likely.
though the three years screams “bad idea”
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
and there's a 4th year option supposedly
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 3, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
oh man thats a risky call
maybe they’ll get themselves stuck in a castillo-esque deal.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 3, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
yup i'd go 2 years tops
but it’ll be hard to compete with a 3 year offer even with the position change, so i guess we should start wondering who will be playing second for us next year (hint his name rhymes with blewise crapdealo)
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 3, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
A different twist
I give Amaro credit for going for the glory, but this will end up being like the Ibanez deal, good for the first year, and getting progressively worse. Hopefully the Phillies end up with some bad contracts for older players that will handicap them a bit in the future.
Trying to look for the bright side
I couldn't agree more
Polanco has been a very good player and I would have loved to see him on the Mets playing second for a one or two year deal. But switching him to third and signing him to a three year deal at 6M per sounds like a bad Omar move to me. Of course I thought the same thing about Ibanez
That Ibanez contract is still terrible
He fell off Mount Everest in the 2nd half, and I think you can only expect him to get worse.
And this Polanco contract is also terrible. If Omar had signed Polanco to this kind of deal, he’d be getting death threats.
I disagree on the last part
The Polanco deal isn’t particularly good, but at least these players are worth their contracts in the first year, at the rate Omar’s going we not get anyone who’s worth the first year of the contract, even if you add up their value every year.
I'm calling BS
if Omar had signed Ibanez this place would have flipped a shit. And he has signed quite a few guys who were effective for at least a year (Luis Castillo comes to mind), but definitely weren’t worth the entirety of their contracts.
I’ve been saying it for over a year, but Ruben Amaro is not a good GM. He may not be Omar bad, but he’s nowhere near Gillick, and the Phillies will not have a Braves-like run on his watch. Unfortunately, it isn’t gonna be the Mets who will be there to pick up the pieces.
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Oh I agree we would have flipped shit if he had signed Ibanez
But I imagine we’ll flip a bigger shit after he signs Molina or God forbid Figgins or Matsui, and I don’t think, if Castillo wasn’t on the team, anyone would be as upset about a similar deal for Polanco.
Does he?
I haven’t really noticed anyone on here every seriously complaining about the Pedro contract. I didn’t have a problem with it, just because it wasn’t just about Pedro’s value on the field IMO at least.
There have been commenters around here who have decried the Pedro contract.
I’m sure there are plenty of folks in the Mets-commenting universe who hate that contract.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 3, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah I'm sure there are people in the mets universe who hate the contract
But there are also people who think David Wrights contract is bloated. I just mean it doesn’t seem like there’s an overwhelming amount of negative feelings towards the contract.
Pedro's value in signing Dominican players
It’s been said that that was one of the reasons his value was so high. I remember reading that Mejia wanted to sign with the Mets because of Pedro, but do we know of anyone else to whom Pedro being around made much of a difference?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 3, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I didn't even mean that
Although supposedly F-mart signed for the same reason. I meant more bringing legitimacy to a mets club with some young talent but with a recent history of failure/being the also rans of the city, both in terms of signing other free agents and marketing.
Beltran
Yes his first inclination was to sign with the Wankees but Pedro called him and asked him to play here. That at a boat load of money got him here.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 4, 2009 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think people get pissed off at Omar giving him that contract, so much as people get pissed off at Pedro for:
A) Getting injured (though that’s not really his own fault)
B) The constant, “I feel the best in my life right now”, “I’m 100%”, cliches. In Spring Training 2008, he was supposed to be feeling better than he had in like five years. Two innings into his first game, he’s injured for half the year.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 3, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
What I mean is
I’d gladly take Polanco for that deal, over Molina for more. Or Hideki Matsui at all since he really shouldn’t be more than a bench player and God knows Jerry’s going to get him in the field every chance he gets.
Going for gold is fine if you get the gold, otherwise
you’ve got a Met 2006 scenario
Well the 2006 mets could have gotten gold in 07/08
if not for a series of poor team building decisions.
Although i will say that's another point imo in favor for this contract
Unlike the 2006 mets the phillies stars are kind of really really old. Howard, Utley, Rollin are all in their 30s I believe, if they don’t win it this year or next year they’re not really going to have any other choice but to rebuild anyway since their window is nearly shut, and their farm system isn’t any great shakes, or w/e that phrase is. So going all in and taking on contracts that are going to be bad at their end, and really it’s only a 3 year 6 million per deal which I don’t think it’s that awful there’s a good chance Polanco will be worth near twice that in his first year, so it will only be two years of being overpaid, makes sense since once their stars start to decline they’re going to be in major trouble anyway.
getting old
Howard just turned 30, Rollins just turned 31 (how is that posssible?) and Utley is about to turn 31. They’re not old, right in the middle of their prime. Not to mention Dictorino is 29 and Werth 30. I see what you’re saying tho, their window is definitely the next 2 seasons and they are going all out for that. Likely by 2012 they will be stuck with bad contracts, aging players and a poor farm system.
The Mets had that young core in place too, but as we all know, the expensive older pieces put around them (Alou, El Duque, Pedro, Wagner) ended up being their demise.
Yeah I hated those deals for us
Because we had plenty of time to build a quality team we didn’t have to keep go all in with old pieces, but it seemed like the front-office only thing one off-season at a time for us rather than having a long term plan. Even after the Santana trade the oldest player of our core, Beltran, was only like 29 right?
And yeah my mind can’t fathom Rollins and Utley being the same age. When I was writing it I was thinking Rollins was like 33/34.
Something tells me a guy who hasn't played 3rd regularly in 5 years
and is old and losing speed fast, will not exactly make a smooth transition to 3rd
Im not sure I believe he's losing speed fast
UZR, which I know isn’t the end all be all to defensive analysis, had him as the 3rd best 2nd basemen in the league last year. Unless he falls off a complete cliff it’s hard to expect he’ll have significant problems at third.
And even though he hasn't played regularly in 5 years
He’s still played a significant number of innings there in his career so it’s not likely its an entirely new position or anything, I really think for a professional athlete who’s already a strong fielder and has played as many innings as Polanco has there already in his career the transition shouldn’t be a huge deal.
I would dislike this signing if Omar made it, and assume it was more of the Castillo nonsense.
Polanco’s OPS has plummeted over the last three years. 120 to 102 to 88 iirc. He’s just the right age to be falling off a cliff. His glove will keep him useful next year, but this could be pretty ugly in 2011 and especially 2012.
It’s not like they want Polanco to spell Chutley at 2b for 30 games a year, either. I don’t get it.
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