Blizzard 2009 Applesauce - Klapisch says the Mets should trade Santana, Robin Ventura news, Mike Lowell trade called off

by Joe Budd on Dec 21, 2009 8:56 AM EST in Applesauce

Holy crap. I cannot believe the amount of snow we got in Virginia. This is probably the first time in history someone is going to Connecticut to get away from the snow.

Meet the Mets

Toby Hyde posts about the potential impact new field coordinator Terry Collins might have on the Met organization.

Bob Klapisch suggest that the Mets throw it in for the next three years. Two things. First, this is idiotic. Just because the press has gotten distracted by the shiny object that is Roy Halladay, does not mean that Johan Santana's reputation or abilities have declined. Secondly, even if this did make sense, would do we trust Omar to get good talent out of this?

Keith Hernandez uses Strat-o-Matic to prepare for his SNY gig.

The Daily News catches up with Robin Ventura who had an ankle transplant surgery a few years ago.

The Mets may be bidding against themselves for Jason Bay.

Around the NL East

The Phillies are hoping to keep both Scott Eyre and Jimmy Rollins around for a little while.

Atlanta has not yet been in touch with first baseman Adam LaRoche.

The Marlins have suddenly entered the Aroldis Chapman bidding.

Around MLB

The Yankees may not want Chien-Ming Wang, but there are apparently 15 other teams who are interested.

It's not often that you see a physical ruin a trade. Theo Epstein will have to wait a little longer for Adrian Beltre...

Aaron Harang may still be available as the Dodgers and Reds have reached an impasse. The Reds may be looking to dump their high priced pitching, but they are keeping around their high-priced third baseman (Scott Rolen) for a few more years.

Billy Beane is close to signing Coco Crisp.

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The Klapisch piece is all kinds of stupid

I’m wasting my breath here but:
1) You can try to be successful now AND try to draft well. Klapisch seems to think these things are mutually exclusive.
2) WTF do tours of Citi Field have to do with anything? No offense to present company, but what kind of weirdo goes to ballpark tours? What happened to touring ballparks, like, during, like, baseball games? (caveat: if you have a terminal illness and have never seen Wrigley or Fenway, tour away)
3) Did I miss the Mets signing Molina for $21 mill, because Klapisch seems to think it’s done.
4) He comes right out and says that in this market, Santana isn’t worth what he’s being paid, because the talent around him isn’t good enough (which makes little sense to begin with), and still thinks the mets should sell as low as possible.
5) David Wright “obviously” hates Citi Field. Huh? And that’s a good reason to trade him why?

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Dec 21, 2009 10:02 AM EST reply actions

Bob Klapisch

should take in Bobby Bonilla as a rommate.

Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?

by CharlieH on Dec 21, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions

I smell a sitcom!

by JoshNY on Dec 21, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

I'll probably never go on a ballpark tour

But when I’m at a game I tend to sit in my seat and . . . y’know, watch the game.

I don’t attend many games, so there is that.

by theflicker on Dec 21, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions

I guess you can try and get there early to tour it on your own

I’d do that if I went to a ballpark for the first time. One cool thing about Petco in San Diego is that you can pretty much walk right up to the centerfielf fence even if there isn’t a game going on. I did that in May when the Padres were out of town. There’s this gravel walkway right up to the fence, and you get to check out the stadium. I don’t know if I’d ever do a tour, but it is nice to get the feel of a stadium.

by dcmetsfan on Dec 21, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions

Yea Petco is great

when I moved to Santa Monica, I met a dude who was from Monmouth County NJ also and was a big Met fan. We went to Petco early and got to go right up to the field and got some Mets autographs. Great stadium.

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 21, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions

I've never gone on a ballpark tour

but I’ve been told by people who have that they’re a lot of fun, and that you get to see things that you don’t see just from walking around the stadium.

by JoshNY on Dec 21, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

The only ballpark tour I did

was Olympic Stadium right after the expos had moved out, and the place was set up for the CFL championships. They show you the locker rooms, the tunnels, and a lot of other stuff you wouldn’t see otherwise. They also take you out onto the field. It would have been a great experience but for the hideousness that was Olympic Stadium. Its worth it if there is no other way to see the park.
I’ve also seen Yankee Stadium inside and out as a vendor, and believe me – most of what you couldn’t see as a fan is scary – you don’t want to see it. I remember going onto the electrical level and having to dodge hanging wires, avoiding puddles and potholes with a 150 lb cart, trying to find the electricians when all outlet power mysteriously vanishes… I imagine most parks – especially the older ones – are like that. Prettier from a fans perspective than from any other…

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions

as a season-ticket holder, I went on a Citi Field tour

And it was awesome.

Saw the broadcast booths, the control booth, the Mets dugout, the clubhouse, the batting cages, the sprint track, the trainer’s room (monument to failure as it is), etc. Stood on the field, pulled a bat and helmet out of the rack. The only way it could have been cooler was if I was eight years old.

Oh, also, I sat on the podium in the press room and lobby Omar to stop signing catchers. Picture coming to Amazin’ Avenue soon…

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!

by kingcritical on Dec 21, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions

maybe "weirdos" was a bit strong

just something that wouldn’t interest me.

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Dec 21, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions

I thought about trading Santana

It would make all kinds of sense if Mets werent in NY, the contract will only get worse and he isnt exactly putting 6+WAR seasons anymore. If we could ship him to some team who takes on 80% of the contract and get some prospects back, it would be a good deal for both the future and 2010

by viktor06 on Dec 21, 2009 10:11 AM EST reply actions

Em...

Considering the contract freight he’s lugging around— and for the next five years, too— either you’re eating a good amount— more than 20%— of the contract if you’re trading him, or you likely aren’t getting sh*t by way of prospects.

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 21, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions

Yeah there's really no teams dumb enough

and with the financial resources ti take on that contract, I can’t imagine we’d be able to trade him and get more value back then what we can expect from him going forward.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions

I'm not really sure we're paying him that much more than FMV

he can still consistently put up ~5 WAR, which is a bit more than his contract pays him for (I think). If a team finds themselves in the middle of a playoff push this year, and the mets are sliding out of it, is it far fetched for a team to take on the contract for a fairly reliable top tier pitcher at FMV? If thats the case, he should be worth a significant amount in prospects.
I still think we should hold him because he’s one of the few things holding this team together, and I think we could compete with him on the team. If we avoided overpaying for talent in this years market, then theres a lot more to add next season that could put our core over the top. and I think competing in 2011 is very realistic…

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions

I agree that someone might be willing to do that

But I doubt he is a 5WAR pitcher going forward, he’s getting older and not better.

If we struggle and he has something like 10-5 in July with 2.50ERA, we could probably find a contender who would take on 80% of his salary and give us a top prospect+few other prospects, it would be a good deal going forward. Of course there is the NTC and the whole fanbase fallout, so will never happen

by viktor06 on Dec 21, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah that's part of what I meant by not expecting to get value back

not just value in prospects but value in marketing and the “legitimacy” he brings to the mets. If we trade him, even if it’s in a smart deal, it’s going to look like we’re waiving the white flag not just for that year but for like the next 3-4 years.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think he can consistently put up 5 WAR

I think at best we’re looking at a 4 WAR player possibly less, and I’m not sure I even expect him to average 4 WAR over the life of the rest of his contract, injuries may have played a factor this year so I’d really have to see another year before I resigned myself to that, but all his numbers are trending down over the last 3 years.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions

he would have been over 4 last year

if we give him the value he had over his 166 innings over a full season, and he was well over 4 every season before that.
Meanwhile, he’s a flyball pitcher in a big park – I don’t think its too far fetched to think he’s worth 5 a season for the next few seasons. He’s smart enough to deal with reduced velocity, and we don’t know how much the pain was hampering him before his season ended, how long it was bothering him for, or how much it will be reduced with surgery…

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions

being a flyball pitcher in a big park

shouldn’t affect his tra or xfip one way or another.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions

agreed

but it will affect perception of his skills by half the teams in the league, and the average fan…

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions

He's also going to be 31 for the season

He’s younger than Halladay – why do we think that his skills will drop off so aggressively so early?

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions

Because they've been declining so aggressively already

But like you said he probably deserves a mulligan on this season.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions

i don't put much stock in most stats Mets accumulated this season

it was such an unmitigated disaster on so many levels its hard to draw much from it.

by KeithsMoustache on Dec 21, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions

+1

As much as I don’t want to give anyone a free pass, to a certain extent a lot of the accumulated stats have to be taken with a grain of salt

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Dec 21, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions

right

I think if we give him a mulligan on ‘09, his skills have declined from his peak for the twins, but not as aggressively. Do we know how long his elbow had been bothering him for?
I’m also curious if switching leagues can make a real difference. For a pitcher like Santana who gets by on guile (in addition to skill), would there be more of an adjustment period than for a straight hard thrower? If so, then Santana’s transition to the mets could be an extended adjustment to learning the players, followed by an injury.
On the other hand, his last season with the Twins was his first real declining season (followed by mostly level high level, but not Santana level seasons), so never mind.
In other words, I have my last final for the semester in 5 hours, and am trying to distract myself from patent law… Sorry if my numbers are therefore somewhat confused.

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions

Lol I totally understand trying to distract yourself from finals

But I like to use fangraphs graphs to gauge a players decline/improvement, it’s just a lot easier to see it in picture IMO. Here’s a link to Santana’s

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions

yeah

Thats where I was looking, and I didn’t want to hunt any deeper than that. I’m a three solution guy (and an engineer, so I build a lot of my own combos). What I see is a major dropoff around when he came to the Mets. I know his last season with the Twins was bad (by his standards), and I know he was hurting a lot his first couple of seasons on the team. I just don’t know that a new league, leading to an initial “pitching to contact” phase where he learns the hitters, followed by strikeout trouble caused by pain and reduced velocity.
Thats why I would reserve judgement until I saw where his post surgery velocity is. If thats the case, then less contact and a bigger park leads to fewer HR’s and his BB rate never really dropped off as much. All of that leads to a three solution king.

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions

and just to be clear

I don’t want to trade Santana – I think in addition to his skills, he is among the most mature pitchers in the league – knowing how to pitch a few different ways. I just think that the value is there.

by djg2111 on Dec 21, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions

I share your need for distraction

or at least I did; my Contracts exam was last wednesday. The value might be there but I don’t trust Omar to recoup it. I also tend to think he was pitching through elbow pain for much longer than we think, either it his or at Jerry’s insistence, so that may have more to do with it then any difficulty in transitioning from AL to NL.

Something else that this reminded me of, although I don’t know if the comparison is really applicable. Cole Hamels had a dropoff when he thought he had to be the Phillies’ ace. Once there were other good pitchers in the rotation he didn’t push himself as hard and he improved, although this might just be an illusion, I haven’t really looked at the numbers. Maybe Johan was pushing himself to be the Ace and he was forcing his pitches? Just a thought.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Dec 21, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions

Well it's not like Santana's not used to those expectations

He was pretty much all there was for Minnesota for years.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions

good point

just thought it might be something to consider

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Dec 21, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions

This article is ridiculous

However, as long as David Wright is playing in Citi Field, I expect him to struggle to get 20-25 homeruns.

by skinsymets on Dec 21, 2009 10:12 AM EST reply actions

I have little problem

with David Wright hitting doubles at home, as long as he hit the HRs on the road.

by Coolpapabell on Dec 21, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions

I have little problem

with David Wright playing for the Mets until he is 40yo or until he decides to quit baseball to play the World Poker Tour.

by Michkin on Dec 21, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions

There are too many points to address in the Klapisch thing.

— He argues that Santana would bring in a franchise-saving cluster of talent in trade… then continues to argue that he’s not worth his deal and is in significant decline.

—He says the Mets are larded with unmoveable contracts when only Perez and Frankie are there right now, frankly.

— His facts are wrong (years of Santana’s acquisition, surgery, other details).

— He implies that Mets management lets themselves get pushed around by the press/fans, then dares the front office to trade the team’s best pitcher because the team’s off-season stadium tour attendance is in the shitter.

There’s a couple of handfuls of other bullspit in there, but it’s not worth wading through, really. Wallace Matthews-level dumbkopfery.

F*ck you, Klapisch, f*ck you, Harper, and f*ck you, Madden. Who’s next?

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 21, 2009 12:42 PM EST reply actions 5 recs

+1

This

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Dec 21, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions

Rec'd

“Coming to America” references are always welcome.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 21, 2009 12:47 PM EST reply actions

Reply fails are not always welcome. D'oh.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 21, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions

I think we need a reply fail counter thingy.

Beer is good! And stuff!

by R_Adragna on Dec 21, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions

Aw, shucks.

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 21, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions

Santana will not waive his no trade clause, so this article is pointless. It’s pointless either way.

by BigBoyJacobs on Dec 21, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions

I imagine if the mets struggle again next year

and he has a chance to go to a contender he’d do it.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Dec 21, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions

I actually wanted to delete this post because I think this article is too ridiculous to comment on. With that said, I still don’t think he would.

by BigBoyJacobs on Dec 21, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions

Another thing about the Klapisch Article

Is he said the “Carlos Beltran gambit turned to vapor.” Really? Seasons of 7, 4.9, 6.7, and last year’s 2.9 in 81 games is a failure?

by Jsz on Dec 21, 2009 1:05 PM EST reply actions

What he neglected to mention...

… is that said vapor unclogs breathing passages by an average of 40%, allowing one to sniff the playoffs yearly with a subpar supporting cast.

Voltron Vapo-Rub… it’s what Carlos exudes!

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Dec 21, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions

So we are seriously considering trading our ace? Really? Really?

You have to be kidding me. This guy is still one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball. He is a team leader. He is the guy the team looks to to stop a skid. He is not replaceable at this point. We laugh at teams that deal their aces. Look at the trades we throw out for Harang and Arroyo, our trash for their best. No major league free agent will sign with us until we rebuilt our team and we would have no one in the rotation to build around. Put a good #2 pitcher behind Johan in the rotation and we will have a good rotation and a good season.

He is Johan Santana for shit sake. “Wallace Matthews-level dumbkopfery.” Absolutely, rec’d!

Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.

by scott from peekskill on Dec 21, 2009 1:20 PM EST reply actions

I don't know if he's top 5

If I were starting a team, I’d take Lincecum, Greinke, Halladay, Hernandez, Lee and Sabathia before I took Santana. That said, I would still not trade him, screw that idea.

by Mackey Sasser on Dec 21, 2009 2:02 PM EST reply actions