Mets farm system gets dissed

21 out of 30 baseball. Rankings by baseball america.

about 2 years ago Delgado 31 comments 0 recs |

Comments

The comment that they have a solid Top 10 is nice

I understand why BA put them here, if it was just comping Top 10s to Top 10s I bet they’d be a bit higher. If the organization would open its wallet in the draft, it might even be an average system overall. A year from now it might be anyway, there are some interesting arms in the mid-lower levels, but a bunch of things would have to go right.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 3, 2009 7:28 PM EST reply actions

Damn you meddler...

I was about to post pretty much the same thing.

It’s funny (well, actually f’ed up) that the Mets seem to have built a farm system the same way the built the Major League team: top heavy.

by boom_roasted on Dec 3, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions

And somehow

They managed to have historically awful upper level teams last year. I expect better this year, but still, also speaks to the comment that they’re unlikely to get a ton of help from anyone, unless you still consider Niese a prospect (technically he’s still got his rookie eligibility I believe).

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 3, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions

This was probably due to the Santana and Putz trades...

Besides F! and Niese (and Parnell, Evans, Murphy, and Kunz, who don’t count as much, especially Kunz), Omar traded away all the upper-level (in terms of minor league level) prospects. Didn’t help that F! and Niese spent half the season hurt.

Omar sucks.

by boom_roasted on Dec 4, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions

Also

the Mets ability to not sign draft picks probably contributed too.

by Delgado on Dec 4, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions

There werent really many upper level guys in the Putz trade

Just Carp, and half the players he traded away in the Santana deal were pre-Omar, I think Carp may have been too. Considering he’s been the gm for 5 drafts/5 international signing seasons, and only traded away 3-4 players, that I can think of, that were brought in under his tenure, one of whom was Guerra and wouldn’t have been in the upper levels anyway I don’t think those trades are enough to justify the lack of upper level talent.

by Gina on Dec 4, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions

Putz trade was mostly upper levels and majors

Cleto was the only guy in that trade who wasn’t upper level.

Chavez and Heilman were strictly big leaguers this year. Smith had only a brief stint in AAA. But Vargas, Carp, and Carrera were all significant contributors this year in the upper minors.

And of course the upper level talent is mostly pre-Omar, he’s only been here since 2005. The 2005 class alone, Omar’s first, has so far produced Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, Martinez, and Thole. When in the Phillips/Duquette era did we sign that many big leaguers in one year?

by acerimusdux on Dec 4, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions

I’m not sure the fact he outproduced Phillips/Duquette is really impressive. And the fact that in 5 years those are the only big leaguers he’s produced isn’t really a great accomplishment, they’re not terrible but it’s basically Martinez and some fringy guys, Pelfrey hasn’t really shown any signs of developing an off-speed pitch or being more than a high 4 era/fip/tra w/e back end of the rotation guy. The jury’s still out on Niese but most scouts/projection systems have him around the same. Parnell is a solid MR and Thole is boom or bust depending on whether he can handle the catcher position defensively. I don’t expect them to churn out stars but it’d be nice to produce some cheap league average positional players, or even cheap bench players and pitching depth.

by Gina on Dec 4, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions

Huh?

I didn’t say they were the only ones he produce in 5 years, I said that was his first year. And Niese and Pefrey are far from fringy. That’s a solid group across the board.

In 2006, the Mets had no picks in the top 60,and still produced Smith, Mulvey, Murphy, and Stoner, with Tejada and Pena on the way. And that was probably Omar’s worst season for adding talent.

In 2007, they had a tremendous international class, with Mejia, Familia, Flores, Marte, Puello, Valdespin, and Aldama all signed that year. From that year’s draft, Moviel, Rustich, Niesen, Lucas, Lutz, Duda, Carson, and Gee all still look like decent prospects, and Kunz still could be a decent pen arm.

In 2008, they had a very good draft, as it looks so far like they hit pretty big on 4 of their first 5 picks (Davis, Havens, Holt, and Nieuwenhuis).

You can’t expect international guys to be having a big league impact in their 3rd professional season, and really not even polished college draftees unless they are coming out of the very top of the draft. So where exactly were the Mets supposed to get future big league players in 2006 and 2007 who would be helping by 2009, with no high draft picks?

You can blame Omar if you like for building a winning team at the big league level in those years, which averaged over 90 wins a season, rather than hoard high draft picks and rebuild the farm system. But not too many people were complaining at the time.

by acerimusdux on Dec 4, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions

And earlier trades

Delgado, LoDuca, etc. All in all, since the end of the 2005 season, the Mets have traded 24 players who appeared in AA or above in other systems this year. That’s practically an entire active roster for one minor league affiliate. Most of these guys weren’t that good, and won’t be anything special, but they might have at least helped Buffalo or Binghamton this year. And the Mets have seldom dealt for minor leaguers from other systems.

In addition, the Mets have given away picks to sign free agents. Signing Wagner lost a pick that was later used to draft Kyle Drabek. Signing Pedro lost a pick used to draft Clay Buchholz.

by acerimusdux on Dec 4, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions

wow, looking at what we lost by picking up wagner and pedro hurts

I wouldnt mind having Drabek or Buchholz, although to be fair we would have probably drafted them and then not bothered to sign them anyway.

by KeithsMoustache on Dec 4, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions

The system could easily go from a 20th-ish system to a top ten one by the trade deadline.

Spend on the #7 pick, and use free agency to fill holes as opposed to trades. The graduation of many prospects to the majors combined with the Mets kids moving up a level should move them up quite a bit.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 3, 2009 8:07 PM EST reply actions

Yeah that's true

Especially with the way things are going to work around St. Lucie. That was probably the system’s best offensive unit in 2009 with Nieuwenhuis, Havens, Guzman, and Lutz, and they’ll all move into a more hitter friendly environment. Bingo can be a great place for left handed hitters, which all of those guys are, so they should make an excellent core offensive unit once again. At least the first two could very well wind up being good enough to be Top 5 prospects in a lot of systems, but because the Mets figure to graduate so few guys, they may very well wind up outside the Mets Top 5.

Meanwhile the Sand Gnats probably had the system’s deepest rotation, and those guys should all enjoy the FSL in 2009.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 3, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions

Mejia, Holt, Familia, Moviel, and Rustich in Bingo ought to be awful interesting.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 3, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions

You think they're going to push Familia straight to Bingo?

Seems strong to me, but also exactly the kind of strong the Mets are known for. I’d let him get comfy in the FSL first. He was very, very good, but not dominant, and very, very good in the SAL doesn’t mean ready for Double-A. If his breaking ball is fooling HiA hitters the way it did to LowA hitters after a couple months, then I’d push him.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 3, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions

I'm not really that bothered. Basically, they said that the Minor League system has a bunch of solid guys who are too young to make an impact next season.

It’s not like they said everything is crappy, which is telling, because, seemingly, some of the hype about a bunch of the guys down there is more than hype, according to people who know Minor League baseball. The greatest thing in the world would be to see, in a year or two, how many of the guys who are down there are ready to be promoted to the Major League team. How awesome would it be to see droves of them, all at once?

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 3, 2009 9:02 PM EST reply actions

Well the problem is the further away they are

the harder it is to gauge whether they’ll ever be major leaguers at all.

by Gina on Dec 3, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions

Assuming everything works out, of course.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 3, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions

everything never works out.

by SuperT on Dec 4, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions

Yeah and that's the probably with having a top heavy system with depth issues

When it comes to prospects quantity might be better than quality.

by Gina on Dec 4, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions

Geeze, get out of here, and let me be optimistic that all of our Minor Leaguers pan out, aren't traded, and come up all around the same time, damn it!

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 4, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions

No, I really think this is too low.

That’s basically where they were ranked last year, and I’d be shocked if you told me that the Mets system wasn’t better this year than last year by leaps and bounds.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Dec 3, 2009 10:13 PM EST reply actions

Well its possible other farm systems got better too

by Gina on Dec 3, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions

Yes.

But at the same time, many farms graduated guys this season. Who did we graduate? Bobby Parnell, Daniel Murphy, and Nick Evans.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Dec 4, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions

Who did we add?

Mets also seem to have had a weak draft in 2009. Though I think it’s kind of early to judge or weigh that too heavily. But BA seems to anyway. I agree it’s a bit low, but if it’s 16-18, not that much. I’d have them 14 or 15. Under 18 would just seem negligent.

I think the starting pitching is still thin after Mejia and Niese. I’ll see next year though how good some of those arms moving up from Savannah really are. And hopefully we’ll see how Urbina, Matz, and Dotson shape up as well. The bats are deeper than they’ve been for awhile though.

by acerimusdux on Dec 4, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions

I don't expect to find out all that much about the Savannah crowd next year

Big ballparks will keep their HR rates down. Command will be something to watch with all of them, but I suspect they won’t have to improve that much to continue to have success, and it won’t be until they hit Double-A that we really learn whether they’re prospects for fringe organizational types.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 4, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions

I'll know when I see them

Low A to A+ is a pretty big jump as well. But I actually get to see the guys at St. Lucie, which is what I meant there. For the lower level guys though, like Urbina, Matz, Dotson, who will probably be in the GCL or something, I doubt I’ll know much more than I do now unless there are credible scouting reports somewhere.

by acerimusdux on Dec 4, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions

Fair enough

But the FSL is just so extreme in the pitcher friendliness, it feels a little unbalanced for a system like the Mets, where the LowA level, at least in the SAL, is a bit more hitter friendly. Typically you expect one of the major changes from LowA to HiA to be the HR rates, but that just doesn’t happen too much with the way the FSL plays, so a guy like Carson, who uses contact and his defense, should really be able to do essentially what he’s done in LowA, and even if guys in the FSL are squaring him up better, have it not entirely reflected in the numbers. I don’t get to see anyone but the Clones occasionally so I certainly envy that privilege. But speaking more generally about how the community is going to rate those guys, I suspect its more likely the Savannah big three get overrated in their HiA campaigns than underrated by the community at large.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 5, 2009 1:02 AM EST up reply actions