On Jason Bay
When the offseason began, I thought the Mets would pay one of the big-three free agents this season, and I hoped it would be Matt Holliday. Then, I debated which of the other two, probably overrated, big free agents would be a worse signing.
Now that the signing is all but official, however, I'm happy for a number of reasons--many of them unrelated to the immediate reality that Jason Bay is a Met. Firstly, two annoying mantras that have been shoved down the throats of Mets fans lately, can mercifully die. Whatever your views on Jason Bay's fielding prowess, his signing with the Mets can in no way be said to demonstrate a "renewed and sincere commitment to build a team around speed and defense." The implicit notion here is that, because the Mets play in a pitcher's park, there is some strategic value to recreating the 1985 Cardinals. And while park factors are always a valid consideration, building an entire roster to perfectly fit a ballpark is the kind of superfluous activity reserved for general managers whose teams are so well constructed that any transaction is like Paley's Watchmaker-God adjusting a sprocket. Lame-Duck GM's who need to win now, don't overhaul their entire roster to make it "faster." Maybe someday the Mets will use stellar outfield defense and Citi Field to raise the value of flyball-pitchers and then systematically ship them elsewhere. We all know the people chanting "defense and pitching" these days, however, are really just a bunch of bunt-loving jabronies drooling over the idea of "the little things."
The second annoying rally cry we won't have to hear anymore is the call for a "deadline" on the Bay negotiations. The idea that the Mets needed to tell Jason Bay "take it or leave it" for the sake of their "dignity" is backwards. Poorly-run teams, coming off poor seasons, don't pursue top free agents out of the goodness of their hearts. If Jason Bay really had reservations about coming to the Mets, or would rather play in Beirut, that should tell the team something about their prestige, not that Jason Bay is ungrateful or greedy. Prestige may not win ballgames, but it is no small thing. Except for nerds who write or read Mets blogs, most people don't have some analytical knowledge to base their opinion of a team on. For the average fan, the casual fan, and many of the players (and probably more than a few members of the Mets' front office), whether or not the team wins determines their overall opinion of the franchise. This is why the loudest criticism of the Oliver Perez signing could be heard in May 2009, not January. This is why I can talk until I'm blue in the face about how much I like Neal Huntington's MO, and still be told (often by Pirates fans) that the Pirates are simply losers. If Jason Bay worried that the Mets would not surround him with the talent needed to win, it means he's smart and I like him already.
I am also pleased to finally have a left-fielder that can hit. With the possible exception of an ever-injured Cliff Floyd, this concept is completely foreign to modern Mets fans. If Mets fans loved Gary Sheffield, the league-average DH/clubhouse nuisance, because he could actually hit a little bit, Bay-44 jerseys will be ubiquitous by June. Unlike other defensively-challenged players, Bay's problems -- bad first move, conservatism -- aren't especially noticeable. Just watching the games, Jason Bay will seem like a superstar.
The converse to the "fielding and speed" mantra, however, is the idea that the Mets "needed to add a power hitter," making Bay a perfect fit. There is no power quota for a successful team. The 2009 Mets hit few homers because they had few good players and a few good players with down years. Good players do not necessarily hit homeruns, however, as many other factors contribute to a player's value. Here, my original reservations lie.
Bay is a below-average fielder, but not as bad as some make him out to be. Going off his UZR, a good projection for Bay's defense next season would be -10 runs. The advanced metrics are hardly universal, however, as John Dewan's system rated him as -1 run last season and TotalZone somewhat questionably tallied him at +4. Other factors are in play here, too, as Bay played on bad knees in 2007, his first monumentally bad fielding season according to UZR, and in the notorious Fenway LF in 2008 and 2009. This readout of Dewan's plus/minus numbers might give you a sense of how the green monster affects fielding numbers:
Among the defensively-challenged masher-leftfielders, Jason Bay also seems unusually fast and lithe. If Adam Dunn is a "butcher," then Jason Bay is the surgeon, precise and overly cautious, focused on a small area. For this reason, I'm receptive to the idea that Bay's numbers got wrecked by his knees and then by Fenway, creating the illusion that his defensive decline was a lot worse than reality. I have him down for -7 runs in left and I think that's a fair projection, which he could certainly do better or worse than.
On the hitting side, his talent is undeniable, but much has been made of his "old-body skills" (high K, HR, and BB). After looking at some comparable players -- Jay Buhner and Tim Salmon seemed particularly apt -- I'm not worried about a sudden dropoff. In the later years of the contract he could see a decline, but I think he's just as likely to maintain the same level for the time being. Nobody hits a .400 wOBA in the AL East and then sees a sudden decline because they moved to a big park in the NL and turned 32. I expect ~30 runs above average.
As for the contract...what did you expect? The Mets gave him basically what the Red Sox offered but with a fifth vesting option, which is easily attainable. For Omar Minaya, a lame duck, the vesting option is a great way to secure the player he needs to save his job while also deflecting the criticism associated with "guaranteed 5 years."
No, he's not Matt Holliday. Yes, the contract is kind of stupid. But Jason Bay is a heck of a consolation prize and one of those fabled "complementary players" that help Reyes/Wright reach a championship.
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Once you get passed his contract and below average to really sucky defense
Bay will look nice in the line up next year. The problem though, as you say, is that he his a complementary player to Wright, Reyes and Beltran, but he’s getting paid like, and has the reputation of, a core player. For an extra $10 million, (Bay is basically 5/80, Holliday looks like he’ll get 5/90) you could have added an all around better player in Holliday. Instead of having 3 stars, 1 good player, 1 slightly below average player (Castillio), and two horrendous excuses for baseball players (Francoeur and Molina), you could have had 4 stars, 1 slightly below average player, and 2 horrendous excuses for baseball players. It helps us in the short term, but hurts us a ton in the long term.
Also, though Cliff was more valuable, because as oft-injured as he was, he still played over 100 games a few times for us, I think the best offensive season we got out of left field was Moises’ 2007. Sure he only played in 87 games, but he did have a .393 wOBA in those games.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Either way we're not going to win many games without a first baseman...
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 30, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Wow, I completely ignored an entire position.
In fairness, I haven’t slept all night, so maybe I should get some sleep.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
I forgot about 1st the entire time Todd Zeile played it
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 31, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Except
We won’t get the 6.4 and 5.5 WAR seasons he put up in 2005 and 2006.
"You know I am only teasing. I love you gals out there -- always have." - Keith Hernandez
Unless Socks finishes his time machine
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
this is pretty much
all there is to say.
i really don’t understand the LOL uproar at this signing. is it an overpay? ultimately, yes. is it egregious? not remotely. and just because he has “old player skills” doesn’t mean he’s going to fall off the cliff any time soon. predicting his immediate demise at age 33 is… fucking stupid.
if he loses a step, there’s a chance you could put him at 1b, or you could likely easily move him to an AL team looking for a DH.
but seriously, the 2 WAR projections are stupid, as are the “lol omar is an idiot!!!!!!11111oneoneone” claims.
if he’s a 3.5 win player, it’s fine. which is what he was last year, in the AL East. and if it turns out his defensive failures are overstated, he’s a 4+ WAR player… so …yea
by firejerrymanuel on Dec 30, 2009 7:45 AM EST reply actions
How are 2 WAR projections in 2011/2012stupid?
When in the last two years he’s been worth 3.5 and 2.9 and he’s at the end of his peak? Even if you don’t expect him to fall off a cliff there’s no reason to think he won’t decline at a normal rate which would put him near 2 WAR years from now. He’s been worth 3.2 WAR the last two years, which should be the tail end of his prime where he’s begun declining already, which makes sense considering he was at 6.4 and 5.5 in 05 and 06, expecting him to be down to 2 WAR in 2 years really isn’t that aggressive of a decline.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I hope he doesn't drop to 2 WAR anytime soon. That's just depressing, paying $16 million dollars for that.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
I have no problem with Bay, and hope he does great.
My problem is with Omar, in that he seemingly never even opened communication lines with Holliday and his people. He had his sights set on the second best, so to speak. Bay is a good player, no doubt about it, but I get frustrated that a better player was available, for roughly around the same price, and that avenue didn’t really go anywhere- the kicker is not because the two sides could not broker a deal, but because one side (our side) never seriously (as far as we know) began negotiations.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 9:49 AM EST reply actions
That's not really true.
We know Omar had meetings with Boras at both the GM meeting and the Winter meetings, and I don’t think anybody believes Holliday wasn’t discussed both times. What was said, we won’t ever know. We do know they at least talked though.
I think it was fairly clear from the lack of activity on the Holliday front that Boras wanted to allow Bay to sign before he really got going. I think it’s unfair to say Omar had no interest in Holliday, as I’m sure he’d have been involved if Bay had signed elsewhere.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 30, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
When were there reports of signifigant and/or meaningful talk between our side and their side? That's what I mean.
The amount of reports tying us to Bay, as opposed to the reports tying us to Holliday is what pisses me off. Bay, like I said, he’s good, and I hope he does amazingly well, obviously. Omar seems to have had his sights set on number two for weeks, which is the part I don’t like. I never got the feeling that there was no chance in hell that Holliday would have signed with us, so “working around him”, so to speak, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Obviously, we met with his people, and they with us, but from the get-go, at least in retrospect, it feels to me as if they were cursory, “we-have-to-do-this-even-though-we’re-not-interested” kind of things. If that makes sense.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Where were those reports on the Vazquez trade?
How about the Texiera signing? Things like this fly under the radar all the time. I don’t think there’s any way for us to know what went on and what did not based on media leaks, as those are never fully accurate.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 30, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I would say reports about trades are usually WAY harder to come by before the fact
than FA signings/interest. But there were reports about Vazquez, most people knew they were going to try and trade him or Lowe and that Lowe’s contract was much harder to move.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I feel like the Mets were caught in a bad situation from the start here.
The Cardinals acquired Holliday at the deadline and he seemed to enjoy his time there. Citi Field may not be as bad as the media makes it out to be, but I’m sure it was at least a concern to both Bay and Holliday. Holliday was unlikely to even begin serious negotiations until Bay signed, unless a team got desperate and offered him a larger and longer contract than he would have gotten otherwise.
The Mets were stuck in a spot where if Bay signed elsewhere, they would likely have to outbid the Cards to sign Holliday. At this point the negotiations would probably lead to a very large contract. They could take the same approach as the Yankees took with Sabathia. Either way Holliday would likely not be the type of bargain he might now become.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 30, 2009 10:12 AM EST reply actions
Sam, I'm getting worried about
your use of the word “jabronies.” You went 0 to 60 on the word so fast that it can’t be a coincidence, what’s going on?
the number one issue facing the Mets is finding that one guy who’s going to say "get on my shoulders and ride me to the championship."
Fangraphs
I made similar comments to the article on fangraphs: the knee and Fenway may be overstating the issue, especially with the UZR. I’d think Dewan’s rating, in between UZR and Total Zone, is closest to accurate.
And if he is conservative, he is certainly achieving what he can via that method. He was second in baseball in left fielder put outs in 2009. Carl Crawford had 327 and he had 310. He had 15 assists. Zero errors (Crawford had 6 assists and 4 errors). Those are pretty bare numbers, different parks, different opportunities, I understand, but baseball_reference gives him an rTOT of 7.9 to 12.2 for Crawford. I think, for last year, that may be closer than the 30 or so run spread in UZR. He had a small, tricky area to cover and it’s hard from the bare-bone stats to say he did it awfully.
And of all of them I think Dewan is closest to the mark. He’s not great, he’s steady, he’ll have more ground to cover, and I hope Carlos’s knees are doing great. I don’t think the contract is as bad as his UZR-based WAR’s suggest.
Defensive stats are my least favorite thing about stats
They never seem to make any sense, and they are all so different.
These stats are telling. He may not be the best fielder on the team, but I will take a guy that plays a smart, albeit less athletic, LF.
When healthy, Cliff Floyd and Moises Alou played fine LF. I bet Bay is about the same.
Looking at a certain defensive stat isn't like looking at, say, wOBA.
I take it like it’s more like looking at OBP, just as you need to look at other offensive components, you just need to incorporate all the good defensive statistics to get a clear picture of a player’s defense.
the number one issue facing the Mets is finding that one guy who’s going to say "get on my shoulders and ride me to the championship."
Kevin McReynolds?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I don't believe that
any met fans are necessarily creating this hoopla because of Jason Bay. It is simply because Holliday is still on the board and regardless of the supposed rumors out there, the Mets did not make a strong enough push at him to know what he could truly be had for. There was really no second competitor for Bay since the Red Sox clearly do not want him back on their team. So settling for the 2nd man when you don’t even know how much Holliday will go for (the highest I’ve heard is 20 mil annually) is just a poor business practice. Furthermore, the idea that the Mets shouldn’t negotiate with Boras is ridiculous considering that we Beltran (and sadly Oliver Perez) are both Boras clients. If Holliday signs for 7-8 years, or 22 mil annually, I don’t think you’ll see many people angry. But if he goes for 6 years 18.5, I don’t think I’m going to a Mets game.
If the Mets were involved heavily for Holliday
the price would have been drastically higher. It could have been $20MM plus, with Boras having two teams in competition for his services. If he signs for 6/18.5, that’s indicative of the lack of teams involved. The Mets never would have had the chance for that kind of contract.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
Rumors are starting to come out now that he's already got 2 eight year offers on the table.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 30, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
additionally,
if the mets started asking too much about Holliday, the cardinals may have started asking about Bay, which could have driven the price up for both. While a player with 3 or 4 teams inquiring is likely to settle around a certain value, a player with only 1 or 2 teams inquiring may have a price that shifts drastically when another big money team enters the conversation…
It's not that Holliday's a Boras Client per se
It’s that Boras is very effective at holding out for maximum contract and years. I’d be shocked if Holliday signs for less than 7 years.
+/- throws out plays that hit unreachably high off the wall.
I think that makes it more reliable for Bay’s Boston stats, but also makes the chart shown here not make sense. Bay was -6.4 and -6.0 UZR in 2004 and 2005. I think he could be a little better than UZR says, but lets not go crazy.
So close
This was a fine article until the final paragraph. “Complementary player”? Bay is making an average of $16.5 million a year under the reported contract. That’s insane for a “complementary player”.
Besides, Bay is an All-Star with solid HR and RBI figures. That’s not a complementary player. Jeff “Frenchy” Francoeur is a complementary player, someone who can contribute to the team without breaking the bank or leading the team in any category.
That said, everything else was great. I just gotta knitpick.
by TJShortell on Dec 30, 2009 4:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The thing is
his name may be all-star worthy but his value is more in line with a complementary player. Frenchy’s value is more in line with a batboy.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Thats not fair
Batboys can’t have negative value…
Darren Baker as your batboy would.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I see a solid complementary player as someone who produces between 2.0 and 4.0 WAR by 140 games or so. Not a superstar, but someone who could potentially make the all-star team in a good year. Give his defense, Bay probably falls into that category. Frenchy is more of a bench player with starter upside.
by englishgrey on Dec 31, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions

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