2009 vs. 2010
Everyone is saying the Mets are not going to contend in 2010. The Phillies are too good, the Braves are improving, the Marlins are going in the right direction. Some people say they Mets are not addressing their needs. Last year was supposed to be our year. We blew it and we stunk and now we are not going to contend for a few years, right? Well I have an argument for you.
In 2009, Sports Illustrated picked the Mets to win the World Series. Everyone thought we had a great year. Let's take a look at the Opening Day lineup:
1. Jose Reyes
2. Daniel Murphy
3. David Wright
4. Carlos Delgado
5. Carlos Beltran
6. Ryan Church
7. Brian Schneider
8. Luis Castillo
9. Johan Santana
Now lets take a look at the starting rotation:
1. Johan Santana
2. Oliver Perez
3. Mike Pelfrey
4. John Maine
That was the roster that was supposed to win the World Series. Now look at the Mets lineup and rotation if the season started today, assuming yesterday's signings were made official.
1. Jose Reyes
2. Luis Castillo
3. David Wright
4. Jason Bay
5. Carlos Beltran
7. Daniel Murphy
8. Jeff Francouer
9. Johan Santana
1. Johan Santana
2. Oliver Perez
3. Mike Pelfrey
4. John Maine
5. Jon Niese
The difference doesn't look so bad. Let's compare the two, side by side.
2009...............2010
C: Schneider........Molina
1B: Delgado.........Murphy
2B: Castillo...........Castillo
SS: Reyes...........Reyes
3B: Wright...........Wright
LF: Murphy.........Bay
CF: Beltran...........Beltran
RF: Church.........Francoeur
SP: Santana, Perez, Pelfrey, Maine, Hernandez.............Santana, Perez, Pelfrey, Maine, Niese
Let's digest this, position by position. At catcher, Molina is an improvement over Schneider. At first base, Murphy has changed position since last year, and we have acquired Bay to play Murphy's old position. This basically means that we replaced Delgado with Bay. The same case is had for left field. Bay is a better player. Castillo, Reyes, Wright, and Beltran all stay the same since last year. At right field, Church was the better player over the last three years or so, but Francouer was the best last year. Francoeur's superior arm and better upside make this an improvement. The starting rotation is practically the same. Pelfrey took a major step backwards this year but he should be able to work it out (Maine did not take a step back as some people say, he was just unhealthy. His ERA and FIP only increased by .25 points and .17 points respectively from 08 to 09 and his WHIP actually went down .06 points.) We still have the same old Perez and Niese will probbly contribute at a level equal to or greater than Livan's.
I am not goint to bother going over the bench or bullpen, but I don't think they really matter much. My point is, if 2009 was supposed to be a great year, then 2010 will be an amazing year. Right?
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I think you're putting too much stock in SI's pre-season prediction.
I think it’s more an indictment of SI’s inability to make good predictions than any indication that the Mets were any sort of a “great” team going into last season. Assuming good health for the full season, the team right now looks like maybe an 89-win team, probably what the 2009 version would have been if everyone had stayed on the field.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 30, 2009 12:19 PM EST reply actions
Also, what?
I am not goint [sic] to bother going over the bench or bullpen, but I don’t think they really matter much.
Please to explain why guys in the bullpen or on the bench don’t matter much?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 30, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Basically I was just too lazy to do the comparisons for the bench and bullpen :P
Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.
by Bobby Baseball on Dec 30, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
This is a trick question.
Of course we’ll do better than 2009, because the team won’t lose like 20 guys to injuries this year, hopefully. That said, the actual talent on this team is worse than 09, almost entirely because of the weak rotation and the downgrade from Church to Frenchy, as Delgado is about equal to Bay and Molina is only marginally better than Schneider.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
This.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
downgrade how?
Francouer has had better nymbers than Church, I don’t see where you guys are getting this, Francouer 07- 19 HR and over 100 RBI .293 ,
08- 11HR 71RBI .250
09- 15 HR 76 RBI .280
CAREER- AB-2742 R-350 H-743 2B-149 3B-14 HR-88 RBI-400 BB-138 K-522 SB-15 CS-15 AVG-.271 SLG- .432 FIELDING .983 WITH 70 ASSISTS in 706 games
Church 07- 15 HR and 70 RBI and .272,
08- 12 HR 49 RBI .276
09-4Hr 40 RBI .273
career-AB-1675 R-226 H-456 2B-118 3B-6 HR-51 RBI-242 BB-172 K-394 SB-20 CS-10 AVG-.272 SLG-.441 FIELDING CAREER .992 WITH 24 ASSISTS in 548 games
so in 07 Francouer had more HR and RBI and hit for better avg, in 08 1 less homer, more RBI, and 09 more HR, RBI and better AVG.
by Rickfansince76 on Dec 31, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Well 09 church was much worse than previous church
so he’s a downgrade from the player we had in 07/08. Also fielding percentage really isn’t a very useful for judging defensive players. Plus Church had MUCH better on base percentage numbers.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I like how he left OBP out
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Well, yeah. It's not on the scoreboard.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 2, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
RBI is a useless stat, it tells you nothing about the player
and batting average is equally useless when not used in conjunction with on base percentage and slugging percentage. Church is considerably better than Francoeur.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
And fielding percentage & errors are also extremely limited defensive stats
They tell you only a small aspect of fielding, they ignore a players range, don’t take opportunities into account, don’t include how well an outfielder’s arm is or how well an infielder turns a double play. It’s also very subjective. Even the stupid rule “you can’t assume the double play,” means a player who made an error doesn’t get an error because there is already an out made on the play.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
I can't tell you how many times I've been told Jason Bay is a better fielder than Matt Holliday because Bay made no errors in 2009.
There’s proof in the pudding of the uselessness of FP% right there.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 31, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
What has Church ever done? He’s platoon at best. Get off Francoeur’s back.
by strawspoonage on Jan 11, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
Church put up season that added up to a positive WAR. Francoeur came out neutral.
Per Fangraphs’ calculations.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 11, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
I don't believe what I read,
Church has been better than Francouer over the last three years, wow, have you been smoking with Tim Lincecum?
Yes.
Per Fangraphs, Churchy was worth 5.5 WAR from 2007-2009; Frenchy was worth 2.4 WAR. Included in this three year period is the 2008 season, in which our old buddy Wincoeur was the worst everyday player in MLB.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 30, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Or
If you prefer Sean Smith’s WAR calculations, Church was worth 3.6 WAR from 07-09 and Mr. Delta Airlines was worth -0.7.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 30, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Mr Delta Airlines with partnership with Northwest and KLM
Thats how we got the honkballers
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
I really don't think 2009 should be the comparision
It’s hard not to be better than 2009, even for the mets.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
The Problem
1) The SI projection was optimistic about guys like Putz and Oliver Perez. One was an injury washout, the other a disaster.
2) There are real, lingering questions about the health of Reyes and Beltran, the matuartion of Pelfrey, and the power of Wright, going into 2010.
3) Livan and Maine, respectively, went 204 IP of 96 ERA+ ball and 190 IP of 110 ERA+ ball in 2007. While both fell off the next year both in ERA and IP, a rebound from either would have been great. Now, we have reason to be sketpical about Maine, who averaged 111 IP the last two years with an ERA+ of 98; and are asking Jon Niese to be an innings eater.
4) K-Rod and Johan aren’t as good as they were in 2008. That’s not to say they’re anything other than great, but still not as good.
5) The Mets systemic failure to deal with injuries, from both an organizational depth perspective, and a rehab management perspective, is atrocious, and has been exposed as such.
by Dan Lewis on Dec 30, 2009 2:44 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Even though we have just about the same line-up and/or rotation, I think you're overlooking/discounting injury questions a bit too much.
The line-up at the start of 2009 had an injury free Jose Reyes, and “I’m in the best shape of my life and my knees feel great” Luis Castilo, an injury free Carlos Beltran, Carlos Delgado coming off of a very strong second-half push, David Wright sans any problems, and so on. The line-up at the start of 2010 has Jose Reyes fresh off of injuries, Luis Castillo, Carlos Beltran fresh off of injuries, David Wright who had a perplexing season, that some aren’t sure isn’t an anomaly.
I don’t believe that the above players down years last season will be reflective of their performance in 2010, but lingering question marks lead to doubts, and doubts lead to conservative judgment.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 3:46 PM EST reply actions
If we win 71 games, we are better than last year
The more important questions:
1) How much better?
2) Will it be enough to contend or (dare I say) win?
"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore
At this point I think we're good enough to pseudo contend
but I don’t think we’re any better than 07,08, maybe not even that good.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
All I want
is a season free of 53948759 different bizzare/random injuries, staff members ripping off their shirts and challenging minor league players to fights, odd over-sized helmets, managers who can’t go a sentence without using “uhhhh”, second basemen who can’t catch pop ups and properly walk down dug out steps, and catchers whose weight is higher than their average (looks like this ones already heading down the tubes). Is that really too much to ask?! Oh yeah, and winning would be cool too. Maybe this team can do it…right now I’m just hoping they can give the Mets their dignity back.
by wrightttxgirlllx3 on Dec 30, 2009 5:28 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Couldn't agree more!
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 30, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
sounds like a good plan for next season to me
also you forgot baserunners missing bases
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 30, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
well, that won't happen since the culprit is gone.....
but there is the issue of not sliding at home plate.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
well anyone can miss a base
and lets not forget the balkiest game ever by Pelf.
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 31, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
I'd request at least one staff member ripping his shirt off and challenging Minor Leaguers to fights.
That kinda stuff is good for the development of younger players. Teaches em grission.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 30, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, good catch...
Probably also should have mentioned the whole throwing the ball to first when no ones there to catch it thing…cough cough Anderson Hernandez. Someone really needs to make a list of all the random/ridiculous/horrible/idiotic things that have happenend to the Mets in 2009 compiled together. I would but…I honestly don’t believe I have the patience to basically re-live that entire season again.
by wrightttxgirlllx3 on Dec 30, 2009 8:43 PM EST reply actions
I didnt pick em to win in 09 b/c of pitching
A lot of people did pick them to win last year, but I wasnt one of them, I knew the pitching couldn’t last a year. I was suspect of Perez and Maine before last year. I was hoping for a better showing out of Livan, I really thought he would be abetter #5 starter than he was. although he had some decent outtings in the early going with no run support. I hope Niese comes off surgery and picthes well, and I actually liked Figgy last year and think he could be a key spot starter this year/ long relief. I would really like to see him used 3-4 innings in relief when we are getting shelled or when we have a big lead for him to throw a 3 inning save.
as far as hitting, I think the way you compare 09 to 10 is by hoping Bay fills the gap that Delgado left in the lineup( give him credit for a great 07), and count on Francouer being more consistent than Church. If Molina signs we are ahead of Schneiders bat easily, but how is he at calling a game we will see, but I think he is an upgrade altogether. so in all we would have a more potent lineup.
by Rickfansince76 on Dec 31, 2009 12:24 AM EST reply actions
Molina shouldn't be calling games
he should be calling Jenny Craig.
by wrightttxgirlllx3 on Dec 31, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
wrightgirl and rickfan
wrightgirl …Yes, Molina could use some Jenny Craig, but you’re dead wrong about Molina calling games. The best thing about Mollina is his game calling ability.
rickfan… Bengie has caught for 3 separate cy young winners on 3 different teams (lincy – SF, Halladay – TOR, Colon – LAA). Bengie has the ability to make any pitcher better, its as simple as that.
Bengie’s adequately defensively and he’s the best hitting molina brother in the majors, which doesn’t say much, but he’ll likely be batting 8th.
True, and if anything....
should Pelfrey or Ollie act up, Bengue can just sit on them and they’ll fall right in line.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
"Bengie has the ability to make any pitcher better..."
Or, the aforementioned pitchers were Cy Young Award winners, and as such, already great pitchers sans any kind of ‘Molina Effect’.
Now, if there were numbers that showed the performance of pitchers Molina caught compared to those same pitchers with other catchers, in similar situations, and said numbers showed considerable difference, I’d be more willing to bite.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 31, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Oh no, i agree.
I was just jumping at any chance I had to crack a fat joke. I don’t hate the guy, but a couple nights ago I couldn’t fall asleep because I had this stomach virus thing going on, so I flipped over to SNY…the constant replays of bengie molina rounding the bases didn’t help. Anyone else notice it’s almost impossible to look away from his stomach when that man is runnimg? Ick. Okay. I’m done now. I promise.
by wrightttxgirlllx3 on Jan 1, 2010 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
it's not like Lincecum, Colon and Halladay weren't good before Molina came
Oh.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
I'm sure Tim Lincecum is going to be a Cy Young candidate with or without Fatso Molina.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Rotation sucks
Needs a really good number 2. Jon Garland does not qualify/
Leave me, leave me, I can't effin stand you.

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