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hm
acquiring josh willingham implies the mets are positive that wright & beltran will be back to 30 home run form next year and francouer will hit 20-25. i’d love to believe it.
i’m all in favor of the mets saving all the money they can this year with cheap players, but if we’re scrimping on guys like holiday because we want to go all out on lackey, it’s just stupid. we either spend like crazy in left field, or with cheap high risk high reward players. i’m of the mind that with a team that has a nucleus of beltran, wright, and reyes, the mets can be contenders, so i really don’t mind either scenario. i just dont want to see a cheap option in left field manifest itself with 85 million for lackey and 15 million for molina
Well, there's that whole
Holliday will likely cost over 100 million, where Willingham could be had for much cheaper thing.
there is that.
but there’s also the “Holliday is one of the best players in baseball, while Willingham is a significantly worse, albeit cheaper alternative” thing.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Yeah but if you can't afford 100 million
then you just can’t afford 100 million. And, while I’m not sure how much he could expect in arbitration, I imagine it will still be well less than his value.
And those two things tend to balance out in terms of value to the club
Holliday gives you more value, but Willingham gives you a lot more payroll flexibility to upgrade in other positions.
Which is why the idea of Willingham over Holliday isn’t as preposterous as you are making it sound.
The Mets don't need payroll flexibility.
The Mets need to come out of the closet and admit they are a largest market team, quit whining, keep the payroll around $150 million. They need to get Holliday, two starters, they should have gotten Polanco, even if they had to go to 3/19, and so on and so forth.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 6, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
yes
That raises the question of why I am even here arguing about this.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 7, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
you're mentally preparing for the day that Albert Pujols signs a record contract with the Mets?
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
Holliday is one of the best players in baseball?
I wouldn’t go that far, but he’s definitely the best position player on FA right now.
If trading for Willingham allows us to make additional moves in the rotation, and improve at 2B or even 1B, I’m all for it. I’d just be a bit worried about our outfield defensively.
This part is crucial
I agree with you. I could live with mediocre offensive upgrades if they focus on improving the pitching, especially the starting rotation. But they have to spend money on GOOD pitchers, not like they did last year . . .
by Nomenclaturist on Dec 6, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
On the topic of the rotation BTW...
I heard through the grapevine that the Mets are looking to tender John Maine. If this happens, it’s a given that they need to land Holliday. We cannot have a rotation with both Perez and Maine, without major offensive improvements.
Do you mean nontender? Or am I just confused....
Though even if Maine is with the Mets there’s no reason not to start the season with him as a long reliever.
He’s been injured each of the last two years, there’s no way you want to try to get more than 150 innings out of Maine in 2010, and between Ollie, the nature of April, and all the injuries in the rotation he’ll have more than enough three, four, and five inning stints with which to build up arm strength.
No...I actually meant tender
And it’s just been confirmed in another fanpost. The source was Joel Sherman.
Instead of Francouer? Sign me up
Instead of Holliday? Pass
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
this
really unless they’re going after some big name pitcher, there’s no reason to not be in the holliday bidding, maybe you get willingham just in case or get him if holliday goes somewhere else but if they get him and aren’t even involved in holliday bidding then thats pathetic.
Interesting thought
Could be to us kind of like Swisher was to the Yanks last year, and then if/when we sign Holliday, he can compete for time at 1B and RF and otherwise fill in off the bench.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 6, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
He's only played three games there in his career
But there’s always been talk of moving him there to get his bat into the lineup, since the teams he’s been on have usually been pretty deep in corner outfielders, which has always limited his playing time.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 6, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think we're covered at 1b,
particularly with all the other holes that need filling. Some projection systems put a platoon of Carter and Tatis as average or above. Bill James projects Murphy with an 800 OPS for 2010. You combine that, his above average fielding with Nick Evans bat v lefties, and that’s a good 1bman.
I think the idea of putting Willingham, maybe, at first means that with Holliday you’ve misallocated resources, and without Holliday you wind up not getting enough hitting/fielding in the lineup.
by SeanSchirmer on Dec 6, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
But if Willingham can be had for cheap
Than it wouldn’t hurt to have him as a first basemen and having those other guys as cheap above average bench players.
I wouldn't replace Murphy with Willingham at first...
but if the Mets see an opportunity at a serious upgrade over Murphy, they should jump on it.
I’m one of the people who still believe Murphy will surprise many next year.
I’m just waiting for a smug comment about Murph to follow.
Well, I'm not saying that we should sign Willingham and stick him at 1B straight away
But if he’s available now, its not entirely clear that we will get Holliday. The point was more that if we do get Willi it shouldn’t preclude us from getting Holliday as well, since Willingham can be moved to 1B, and even still only given the job if he performs better than the other candidates. Kind of like how the Yankees handled Swisher last year before getting Tex. It looked like Swish would play 1B, but then when Tex came in, Swish and Nady had to fight for playing time in RF, until Nady went down and it was left for Swish.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 7, 2009 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
And just like he shouldn't proclude us from getting Holliday
the chance of Holliday, or any other better of starter, shouldn’t preclude us from picking up a cheap option.
Exactly
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Dec 7, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
They should have gone after him in the middle of last year
when his value was at an all-time low. He finished the year really strong but hadn’t been playing much in the first half.
The Nats seem to always have too many OFers. I wouldn’t hate this move.
hell no.
A middling catcher, a middling oufielder for a potential very good player? No way in hell do you make that move.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
wait....
Fernando is going to reek of urine soon……
Flores was a super duper catching prospect that Omar left unprotected.
Willingham has an awesome first name.
This deal must be made.
haha.
That sounds like the new Milldedge for Church and Schneider deal.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
except
Willingham is better than Church and Flores has more potential than Schneider. But, Fernando has more potential than Lastings, so I guess it evens out
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
But . . .
. . . why would the Nats fall for that twice?
by Nomenclaturist on Dec 6, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Fernando also has a much worse track record of staying healthy
than Milledge, so that tips this deal in the Mets favor.
This seems like a good move
but if they don’t get Holliday because of it pass, like cjmulrain said above. His defence is a little below average.
He has played 3 games at first base, could the Mets look at him as a platoon for Murphy?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Carter and Tatis project as at least an average platoon at first,
as does Murphy and Evans.
Though Jerry would have to remember Nick is on the team for that to work.
Now we're talking
This beats all the rumors about guys like Matsui, Guillen, and Cameron. Willingham isn’t great, but he’s good enough to be justified by strengthened rotation.
If this happens, Omar should become willing to eat some salary to move Perez. Pickup a reliable set-up or hard hitting utility player. With Perez gone, I’d become willing to give Maine an opportunity in 2010.
I'm going to go ahead and assume
that Omar wants to convert him back to catcher to provide more depth.
the number one issue facing the Mets is finding that one guy who’s going to say "get on my shoulders and ride me to the championship."
To do what?
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
Just as friends.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Dec 6, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
you realize it will be a
Willingham, Beltran, Francoeur outfield
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
I have a feeling Omar will play The Waiting Game
… and see how the market shakes out for Lackey and Holliday. If the prices aren’t prohibitive, then I think we get them. Kind of like the same strategy employed by Omar with Frankie Rodriguez. If they are cost prohibitive expect Omar to make deals like the ones talked about for Willingham, Pinero, Marquis, etc.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Right ...
and think that what he’s going to do this year too. I don’t think the Mets will be getting into bidding wars for these players.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Oh wait ... I didn't read the question mark (lol)
I stand corrected. The Mets signed KRod on December 10. But that was when it was clear that there were no other suitors given the recession.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
i'm thinking more The Crying Game
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
why would the Nats be dealing Willingham?
that the Mets have expressed interest sounds like it may have been intended to be a negotiating ploy wrt Holliday.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 6, 2009 6:19 PM EST reply actions
yeah
i don’t get why they’d be trading him…they have him, dukes, and nyjer morgan, it’s not like they still have a huge surplus (austin kearns, lastings milledge) of OF
They traded Milledge for Nyjer
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
An an outsider, who likes the Mets, I think that
They should be looking for David Dejesus, who apparently is available, instead of Willingham.
Sign Camroun and shift Beltran to RF
Trade for Kotchman to play 1st base and Theriot (by unloading Castillo)
Making those moves will solve the defense problems and help the pitching staff. Then sign, if the price is right, Lackey and as a reclamation project sign Sheets or Bedard.
To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue
Greg Maddox?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Gotcha
To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue
I'd like to see the Mets take a chance on
Sheets or Bedard – if the medical reports on them are good and we can sign to a heavily incentive-laden contract.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
The sample size about Murphy defense is too small IMO to give an appreciation about his true defensive value
And Kotchman is a better hitter, his numbers as a pull hitter could benefit from playin’ in Citi Field (His .362 wOBA season in Anaheim is still in mind)
To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue
*The sample size is too small
To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue
Kotchman is projected to be a 5 UZR/150 IB,
Murphy is projected to be 2 UZR/150 by BtB. They both are projected for a .321 wOBA by CHONE. I don’t know if CHONE adjusts for league, but I still think it is not worth it for a slight upgrade. Kotchman will also be more expensive.
I like the DeJesus idea if he'd be cheap.
He’s a great outfielder and a solid bat.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
DeJesus
Every stat seems to point to this guy being a very, very good player who get zero attention because he plays in the middle of nowhere. If he played in NY for the Wanks or Mets he would be a super-star.
poor man’s Carl Crawford.
by scott from peekskill on Dec 6, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
actually a fair plan
and objective. I don’t think Beltran is moving to RF though and they’ve already been thru the Cameron/Beltran soap opera, so I dont think Cameron is an option. I think everyone pretty much accepts that Francoeur will be the RFer in 2010.
I do think DeJesus is possible and I think Meche will be part of the deal tho… so I don’t think they’re going to spend big in free agency…. maybe a 2 yr deal for Garland or Marquis or possibly LaRoche could be on their radar.
Either way, clearing Castillo will be the first domino….
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 7, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
don't forget this guy comes with a nickname
“the hammer” given to him by the douchekings who broadcast the Marlins. That’s enough to sour me.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
Why are people acting like Willingham sucks?
He hits decently from both sides of the plate, he walks a lot, he’s dirt cheap for next year, and it’s not as if he’s Jason Bay in the OF.
I don't think it's that he sucks
It’s that people worry they’d do this move and decide they don’t need to go after Holliday, when Holliday is a decidedly better player.
CHEAP ALTERNATIVES
Why the Hell Do we have to settle for “CHEAP ALTERNATIVES” this is a baseball team in NY!!! The Mets Get Paid every year yes every year $20 million by Citibank for naming the stadium after them and advertisments. $20 million just from them, then take away what comes off the books every year, and how ticket prices i,parking, consessions go up every year and WHAT we have to suffer and be happy about CHEAP ALTERNATIVES this is’nt Pittsburgh or TAMPA !!!!! WTF!!!!!!!
Look, nothing is going to be resolved if you guys keep saying rabble the whole time.
(eh, close enough)
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
Getting Hopes Up
Listen its all fun to dream if the Mets get this and that but in reality which is being a Mets Fan we have to prepare for the following signings: Austin Kearns RF, Doug Davis #2, Dotel 8th inning, Geoff jenkins, And David Weathers just saying be prepared
Just saying
Aubrey Huff ’s Value is at an all time low and 1 yr removed from a career year and he can play 1b JUST SAYING
Just saying
YOU ARE AN IDIOT. JUST SAYING
(didn’t Stewart do something like this not too long ago?)
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
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