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Things I Wish People Would Stop Saying About Jason Marquis

 

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            Among the general fanbase, and some TV/newspaper/radio “pundits”, there has been a growing call for Omar Minaya to sign Jason Marquis, who is a free agent this winter. Rumor is that, supposedly, Omar has met with his agent(s), or is ready to. Marquis has already stated that he wouldn’t mind playing for the Mets, Jeff Francoeur thinks that he’d be a great fit on the team, and an added plus, he’s a local guy, having grown up in Staten Island. He made the All-Star Game in 2009, and much is made about the fact that every team he’s pitched on has made the playoffs. Let’s debunk some of these things right now.

            Firstly, let’s talk about all of the teams that Marquis has played on being in the playoffs (from 2000, to 2003, he played for the Braves; from 2004, to 2006, he played for the Cardinals; in 2007 and 2008, he played for the Cubs; in 2009, he played for the Rockies.). In ten seasons, each of which Marquis has played on a team that got into the postseason, Marquis only actually pitched in five of them. He pitched in 2001, with the Braves, 2004 and 2005, with the Cardinals, 2008 with the Cubs, and 2009, with the Rockies. And in those seven series he appeared in, he only actually started three of them (compiling a postseason ERA of 4.56, and a postseason WHIP of almost 2, in 23.2 innings). If Marquis’ abilities as a pitcher had that much of an impact on the teams he played on making it into the postseason, why was he left off of the roster so many times, and pitching poorly when he did get into games, either as a starter or as a reliever? This is obviously telling of his true ability, as opposed to the luck of the draw, in being on teams that win. Invoking this reason as a factor for signing Marquis has no substance to it.

            Now, about the fact that Marquis grew up in New York, and is a local guy. That is nice and all, that, being a local guy, he wants to play for a local team in the Mets, but…All of those fans, or sports writers/’pundits’ out there who want him because of this reason do realize that Marquis grew up a Yankee fan, right? Now, that’s no character flaw against him or anything (Ed Kranepool grew up a Yankee fan, and he is synonymous with Metsdom today, of course), but that’s no reason to go after him. Texas is a big state, with a lot of baseball players hailing from there. Should the Texas Rangers, or the Houston Astros feel that it is in their best interests to sign as many players born in Texas, simply because they grew up in Texas? Invoking this reason as a factor for signing Marquis has no substance to it.

            Many see the fact that Jason Marquis was elected to the All-Star Game in 2009, and his overall 2009 season as evidence that he can be a strong pitcher when the conditions are right. Let’s analyze his stats up until the All-Star Game. Leading up to the it, Marquis made 18 starts, compiling a record of 11-5 in 121 innings, with an ERA of 3.65. An ERA upwards of 3.50, I wouldn’t particularly call ‘great’, or ‘All-Star caliber’. I’d call it ‘good’, and leave it at that. After the All-Star Game, Marquis made 15 starts, compiling a record of 4-7 in 95 innings, with an ERA of 4.94. An ERA upwards of 4.00, bordering on 5.00, I’d call just plain ‘ol bad. For the season, Marquis made a total of 33 starts, with a record of 15-13 in 216 innings, with an ERA of 4.04. And, that’s not even looking at any advanced statistics.

            A pitcher who faded in the second half of the season, especially in September…That sounds like a recipe for success for the Mets. I mean, it’s not as if strong September performances by the club would have given us a playoff berth in 2007 and 2008, right? Jason Marquis has exhibited a downward trend in the second half of the season over the course his career numerous times. On a team that has been plagued by this type of phenomenon over the last couple of years, is adding more fuel to the fire really all that great of an idea? How confident would you be in an ailing Mets team in September when Jason Marquis, with a career ERA of 4.93 in the month of September?

            Well, Citi Field is a much better pitcher’s ballpark as compared to Coors Field, so Marquis is likely to have more success in Queens, right? Odds are, not really. Jason Marquis is not a fly ball pitcher, meaning that the lower altitude and larger outfield in Citi Field will not impact his style of pitching all that much. As evidenced by his 4.79 K/9 rate last season (5.32/9 over his entire career), Jason Marquis is not a power pitcher. Given that he throws his sinking fastball almost 65% of the time, he is a groundball pitcher. So is Mike Pelfrey, and the impact of Luis Castillo’s diminishing range, and whoever the stand-in at shortstop was very evident in 2009. In 2010, Luis Castillo is going to be a year older, and his range a bit smaller, by virtue of growing older. If all goes well, Jose Reyes should be back and healthy, but Reyes can only cover so much ground. Everything else is left up to Luis Castillo, who leaves me feeling less than confident about Marquis suddenly “finding himself”, at age 31.

            Is all of this an indictment against Jason Marquis? I don’t feel that it is, no. In another place, another time, I wouldn’t have so many reservations against signing him. But, the fact of the matter is that, as the team seems to be shaping up as of right now, Marquis isn’t the best fit. He really wouldn’t even be a very good fit, at that. If Mike Pelfrey gave me more confidence as a front-of-the-end pitcher- ignoring the defense behind him, that made him appear worse than he actually was in 2009- maybe. If the Mets had a more capable player at second base, maybe. If the back-end of the rotation weren’t already so stacked- as it is, we already have John Maine, Oliver Perez, and possibly Jon Niese, Nelson Figueroa, Pat Misch- maybe. If he was willing to sign a contract with the Major League minimum, maybe. But, that’s a lot of ‘ifs’, and ‘maybes’, so I’ll just have to take a pass with Jason Marquis.

            In writing this, I’m pretty sure that I’m preaching to the choir. But, my goal of this is to attempt to reach out to those who think signing Jason Marquis is a good idea, just because they’ve heard it on the radio, or on TV, or on the same blogs where people advocate signing Bengie Molina, and not signing Matt Holliday, and demonstrate to them, contrary to what they’ve heard, Jason Marquis is not that big of a deal, and would be a mistake in the 2009-2010 off-season.

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

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yep.

same thing i think most mets fans felt last year….we need a legit star pitcher, not a bunch fo # 5 guys…instead of signing a burnett type last year, we signed tim redding, livan hernandez, freddy garcia etc. i feel like guys like marquis and garland are this years pricier version of that.

by Rey-O on Dec 9, 2009 8:29 PM EST reply actions  

"[being from NY] is no reason to sign him"

that’s how in the late 70’s we got Pete Falcone, Mike Bruhert, Ed (The Flushing Flash) Glynn…yeah, that worked real well.

by StorkFan on Dec 9, 2009 9:22 PM EST reply actions  

Good post

I really want nothing to do with Marquis and you outlined all the reasons why. Although he can swing the bat – remember that bomb he hit off Jon Niese in Sept. ’08?

by James Kannengieser on Dec 9, 2009 9:33 PM EST reply actions  

In that case

sign him for first base

by Gina on Dec 9, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd be willing to trade Perez for Willis for precisely that reason. Willis can pinch hit if he forgot how to pitch.

I feel bad for the D-Train. I loved him. He was quirky, he could pitch, he seemed like a cool guy, he had a nickname that would have been great for here…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 10, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah he seemed like a pretty good guy

but once the league got used to his crazy pitching motion he lost a lot of his effectiveness.

by KeithsMoustache on Dec 10, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

One quibble

Koosman grew up before the Mets were even a team, so that’s not really fair. I mean, yea, I guess he could have been a Dodgers or Giants fan, but what’s the difference, really?

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Dec 9, 2009 9:34 PM EST reply actions  

*Kranepool, not Koosman

same difference though

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Dec 9, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I specifically mentioned that.

Kranepool was born in the Bronx, and rooted for the Yankees when he was younger, and that’s fine. He was then drafted by us as a kid, and stayed along with us for his entire career. Marquis, he was born where ever upstate, and then grew up in the city as a Yankee fan. And, that’s fine. But, to say that he has always wanted to be a Met, as I’ve seen people ascribe quotes to him, is kind of disingenuous. It’s not like he grew up rooting for the Mets. It’s not as if he was drafted by the Mets, or spent any large amount of time with us at any point, and can be associated with us. He just happens to be from the area, and we just happen to be looking for pitchers in that price range/caliber- he and/or his agent are just smart enough to recognize that he creates an advantageous situation among the local media/fans by claiming such. Notice that Marquis, the Yankee fan, hasn’t claimed that he would love to pitch for the Yankees- they have no interest in him, and so he and/or his agent haven’t bothered barking up that tree.

The main difference, I guess what I am trying to say, is that there isn’t any kind of sentimental connection between the Mets and Marquis that would make this a “feel good story”.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 10, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

but my point is that Kranepool couldn't have been a Mets fan

unless he could see into the future, so it’s sorta disingenuous to use him as an example. A better example would be if like John Franco grew up a Yankees fan or something.

I wasn’t arguing with any other point – I don’t see any sentimental connection to Marquis, and if they are gonna sign him I hope it’s b/c they think he will be a useful pitcher and not any other stupid reason.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Dec 10, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

A different example might have worked, but I like Ed Kranepool!

That’s basically all I was trying to make with that point, anyway. It’s not as if, if he signs with us, it’s a lifelong dream come true, and a feelgood story (like Figueroa two years ago). Him, as a player, should be seen as no different, from an organizational standpoint, that any other player, from the area or not.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 10, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

right, I agree

I was really only pointing out the Kranepool think to be a smart ass haha, I agree with you about Marquis

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Dec 10, 2009 5:24 AM EST up reply actions  

and actually

it makes Marquis WORSE – he had the option of being a Mets fan but chose the Yankees instead. That makes him evil. Kranepool just didn’t have a choice.

"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09

by cjmulrain on Dec 10, 2009 5:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Nope.

While you’re correct, that there are a lot of reasons NOT to sign Marquis, the simple fact that the Mets need to add two starters for 2010 means that in this thin market he should definitely be under consideration.

It’s NOT that he’s from Staten Island.
It’s NOT that he’s been on a run of playoff teams.
It’s NOT that he was an All-Star…

But it IS the case that
He’s started 32 or 33 games every year since 2004 with the exception of 2008, when he only started 28. The Mets had zero starters who started as many games in 2009 as Marquis has averaged starting over the last seven seasons.
He averaged 195 innings a year for the last seven years
FanGraphs lists him as worth $32.2 million over the last three years
His FIP over the last three years was 4.99, 4.60, 4.10

Contract is everything, here. If Marquis wants 3/30, hell no. If he’ll take 2/14, hell yes. A durable starter likely to be a little above average is one of the things the Mets desperately need.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 9, 2009 9:41 PM EST reply actions  

If we wanted (as opposed to needed) durability, seemingly, we would have gone after Wolf harder. Or Garland.

Since getting over his injuries a few years ago, he’s thrown a lot (not as much as Marquis, but…) of innings, with fair success. Garland, he’s pitched lots of innings, with not as much success. I don’t want to misquote someone, but if you sign a fifth pitcher as a workhorse innings eater, who you know isn’t going to perform all that well, you’re not really getting much value in that signing. You might save your bullpen, but you’ll lose games because of it. Livan Hernandez, for example, with the Nats and Diamondbacks in 2006 & 2007. He threw a whole lot of innings, sure, but since he didn’t really keep his team in the game, the fact that he can throw a lot of innings is negated by the fact that, more often than not, he’s not going to keep you in the game for too many of those innings, unless the team keeps pace with whoever they are facing, offensively.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 10, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I don't understand why we haven't been linked to Garland

He’s been, at least as far as I can tell, more consistent than Marquis, not world-beating or anything but a solid pitcher, and he “eats innings”. Maybe they’re in sticker shock over his price too?

by Gina on Dec 10, 2009 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

maybe Garland

doesnt want to come to the mets?

by gbaked on Dec 10, 2009 7:41 AM EST up reply actions  

But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be rumors of us at least meeting with his agents

And I swear last year there were tons of rumors that said he was interested in the mets, but I may be confusing him with someoone else.

by Gina on Dec 10, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

There's a huuuuge difference, though, between Marquis and Wolf, and someone like Livan.

Millwood was apparently available for a bag of balls, too, and it’s only a one year commitment. That would have been a nice way to hedge your bets if you wanted to add a solid one year pitcher along with someone like Wolf.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 10, 2009 5:23 AM EST up reply actions  

part of me does want to sign him since hes from staten island

and he’s decent

and he also can PH sometimes

A "Zeile" for avoiding outs

by metsguy234 on Dec 9, 2009 10:10 PM EST reply actions  

He's not decent. That's kinda the point.

His career WAR is 9.6 over ten seasons- that’s less than 1, on average. He got a big boost from his 2009 performance- a whopping 3.8 WAR, out of his career 9.6, in one year. That’s almost 1/3 his career value in a single season. That puts the rest of his career in better perspective- WARs that range from -0.7 (!!!) to 1.9.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 10, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

If you mean Marquis, what relevance does a season ten years ago have?

That’s a completely unfair way to slice data. The vast majority of projection systems use the past three years. Occasionally one like Zips goes four years (on an 8-5-4-2 scale), and even that only weights the fourth year at 2/19ths of the total. None of them go further than that.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 10, 2009 5:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Even with that, his 2009 data is definitely put into context.

In addition to his peripherals, which suggest rapid regression.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Dec 10, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions  

could it not be

that he may be entering his prime?

He could be a good buy low candidate. Wolf signed a bigger deal then people expected… I imagine they are in contact with Garland as well. But Marquis wanting to pitch here may be important, because other pitchers may not want to pitch here. Harden flew off the market.

I dont think anyone besides Lackey and Harden (maybe sheets) is THAT much of an improvement over Marquis… Everyone this winter has big time ??? next to them. Taking a chance on the guy from the city may not be that bad a thing.

by gbaked on Dec 10, 2009 1:17 AM EST reply actions  

He's 31

mediocre pitchers don’t typically enter their prime and become near all-stars in their early 30s.

by Gina on Dec 10, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Jamie Moyer

is one of my all-time favourite baseball players, and I would prefer never to hear his name in the same sentence as Jason Marquis. Still hoping for four more seasons and a shot at the hall!

by deadspy3 on Dec 10, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

However!

He’s certainly been a different pitcher over the last three years. It’s not unusual for guys to figure things out (junk a pitch that isn’t working, add a cut fastball, refine a changeup) around age 30 and sustain some kind of improvement.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 10, 2009 5:27 AM EST up reply actions  

It looks to me like Marquis has done exactly that

though I’ll defer to someone more familiar with his repetoire

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 10, 2009 5:28 AM EST up reply actions  

or, to answer my own question

I took a look at fangraphs, and it really does look like Marquis junked his curveball and cut down on his changeup and is now essentially a fastball-slider pitcher. That could explain his turning into a more extreme groundball pitcher, and having success with that. He’s cut down the HRs allowed, from 35 to 22 to 15 to 15. He’s not the pitcher we all chuckled about in 2006.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 10, 2009 5:41 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree

but he’s even less of the pitcher we saw in 2009.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Dec 10, 2009 8:02 AM EST up reply actions  

no question.

I fully expect him to fall back into the 2.0 to 2.5 WAR range.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 10, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Can people at WFAN and SNY read?

"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"

by Evan_S on Dec 11, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I think if Jason Marquis wants to be a Met so badly he should give them a nice incentive laden contract. $1M base pay, and ALL of the incentives would be based on innings pitched and strikeouts! Bring on Brad Holt.

by myrick4gm on Dec 13, 2009 2:36 AM EST reply actions  

Well, yeah.

If he wanted to play for the Mets that bad, and was willing to sign a contract for the Major League minimum, I would gladly accept him. But, pigs can’t fly, so…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Rumors

I have not heard a rumor of a MLB team, other than ours truly, interested in Marquis. He has some stats and All-Star recognition,and he’s a good team guy. I was hoping Boston would shoot for him as he’s a NY-guy, and fits their Wakefield fastball system, but Theo spent the cash on Cam. The Mets could get Wang, for less money.

by myrick4gm on Dec 17, 2009 3:04 AM EST reply actions  

though Wang may simply be done as a pitcher.

He’s a completely different type of acquisition than is Marquis.

by SeanSchirmer on Dec 17, 2009 6:42 AM EST up reply actions  

This post is attacking a strawman

The majority of people who would want Jason Marquis don’t want him because he started the All Star game, has been on playoff teams and grew up in New York. No, they would want him because he’s averaged 192 innings, a 4.53 FIP and 2.4 WAR over the past 3 years. Those are very solid numbers, and at 31, it’s unlikely Marquis would decline much in the near future.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 18, 2009 3:18 AM EST reply actions  

You're totally incorrect.

Smart fans would want him because of those last things. But “majority of people who want Jason Marquis” on the Mets does not include a very significant group of smart people, as most Met fans are NOT smart. You’re obviously very smart, but in this instance, since you’re not a Mets fan, I think this post is right on the money.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Dec 18, 2009 4:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Hahahahaha

You’re so naive. You underestimate the stupidity of Mets fans.

"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"

by Evan_S on Dec 18, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The top three reasons on WFAN/SNY as to why fans/commentators want Marquis:

He’s an All-Star
He’s from Staten Island
He’s a “winning player”.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 18, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

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