The Optimal Mets Batting Order
"Luis Castillo may bat leadoff for the Mets. Potentially, Carlos Beltran could bat second and Jose Reyes third. It may make more sense to bat Carlos Delgado fourth and David Wright fifth in that scenario, since otherwise the Mets would be stacking a ton of lefties at the bottom of the order."
Seeing as this quote has generated a lot of discussion on AA, I've decide to use the PECOTA forecasts as well as this handy tool to arrive at the Mets Optimum Lineup. So, armed with the A-Rod of beers (I consider it awesome, others see it as overpaid and overrated) and one of my favorite albums, let's do some posting.
Plugging the PECOTA projection, with a lineup that's inspired by the above quote, into the Lineup Analysis:
| Player Name | OBA | Slugging |
|---|---|---|
| Player 1: Castillo | .347 | .307 |
| Player 2: Beltran | .385 | .513 |
| Player 3: Reyes | .374 | .478 |
| Player 4: Delgado | .355 | .509 |
| Player 5: Wright | .400 | .538 |
| Player 6: Church | .335 | .421 |
| Player 7: Murphy | .327 | .405 |
| Player 8: Schneider | .330 | .342 |
| Player 9: League Average Pitcher | .175 | .173 |
We get 4.873 runs per game, which is 789 runs scored over a full season. PECOTA has the Mets scoring 828. So, the lineup generator did a pretty good job considering baserunning (and the Mets have some real standouts) is not considered as well as pinch hitters, etc. However, more interesting is what the lineup generator spits out for the Mets optimal lineup:
| Runs per Game | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4.927 | Reyes | Wright | Church | Beltran | Delgado | League Average Pitcher | Schneider | Murphy | Castillo |
Wow, this is a lineup even Tony LaRussa would have a hard time loving. This "optimal" lineup showcases one of the problems with this tool (besides the aforementioned baserunning consideration). The Lineup Analysis considers the statistical numbers of each batter as static. Therefore, it doesn't consider the impact on Delgado's numbers by having a pitcher batting behind him. I'm sure that somehow this is technically the Mets' best lineup, but why would any pitcher give Delgado a pitch to hit when a double play can be all but assumed. The tool only generates the top 30 batting orders with all of them having the pitcher batting sixth, so unfortunately more cannot be gleaned. Just for kicks, here's the worst lineup predicted:
| Runs per Game | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4.451 | Murphy | League Average Pitcher | Church | Schneider | Castillo | Wright | Beltran | Reyes | Delgado |
Lucky for you guys, I decided to take a look at what happens when I toss in CHONE projections instead of PECOTA. The results are very intriguing.
| Player Name | OBA | Slugging |
|---|---|---|
| Player 1: Castillo | .360 | .347 |
| Player 2: Beltran | .366 | .486 |
| Player 3: Reyes | .356 | .450 |
| Player 4: Delgado | .344 | .475 |
| Player 5: Wright | .406 | .539 |
| Player 6: Church | .342 | .428 |
| Player 7: Murphy | .336 | .410 |
| Player 8: Schneider | .332 | .363 |
| Player 9: League Average Pitcher | .175 | .173 |
This lineup will generate 4.819 runs per game and 781 runs over the season. But the real intriguing part comes from the optimal lineup with these numbers:
| Runs per Game | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4.857 | Castillo | Wright | Reyes | Beltran | Delgado | Murphy | Schneider | Church | League Average Pitcher |
That's right: not only is the pitcher in his proper (debatable) spot, but Castillo is slated to bat first (in all of the top 30 lineups) and Reyes should bat third. Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me. Could it be that Omar, Jerry, or someone in the Mets front office did a similar study using CHONE numbers? Is it possible that Jerry says all of this "statistical numbers, need to learn to be clutch" stuff because he knows that's what the majority of fans as well as writers want to hear? Maybe he's covering his bases, knowing us Vorpies won't call for his firing if he says he hates numbers but then manages the way the numbers say to, while if he said Stats 0wn, there would be unneeded controversy... probably not, but I guess anything is possible.
Anyway, the main difference between the two projections is Castillo's and Reyes's OBP, which causes a huge impact on the lineup generation. Now, obviously we can debate about splitting up R/L, but to me the more important point is getting our best players the most ABs as possible and ignoring minor problems with the lineup distribution, especially if you consider that Tatis replaces Murphy vs LHP.
Another debatable point are the projections themselves, which I feel are a bit harsh on Church based on the second half of his season.
The last point I'll bring up has to do with Reyes. There has been a lot of talk about whether it would be a waste of Reyes's speed batting him third. Personally, I don't see how batting third would hurt Reyes's speed value. He can still steal when it makes sense to and I don't see Reyes catching up to Castillo/Wright when he hits a triple and they were on first. To me it's more important to recognize that while Reyes has speed, his OBP is somewhat lacking (for a perfect leadoff hitter) and he has more power than he is given credit for. Really, though, there is no right answer and the more important question is, is it Opening Day yet?
This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.
33 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I used Murphy's Marcels the other day
and it had him batting lead-off.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
It appears the leadoff spot
is not as valuable as conventional wisdom would say. I just figured throwing wOBA in order to maxmize PAs would be the best lineup. But I guess because of the 8th and 9th spot, it’s a waste to put someone like Wright, Beltran or Reyes there.
Once per game, power is next to pointless.
And the rest of the game the leadoff hitter comes up after the crappiest of hitters. So power really doesn’t have much value. OBP does, though, as well as speed, as shown in The Book. If Castillo really can post a .360 OBP, it’s his spot.
The third spot in the order is overrated as important, which is why Reyes ends up there. He’s good, but not better than Wright, Delgado, or Beltran with the bat.
I definitely agree with Wright second, as he boasts the best OBP on the team. I’d put Beltran fourth as he has similar power to Delgado but with a higher OBP.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 25, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I pretty much agree with you
The only thing that concerns me is the theoratical trade off of PAs over the course of the season between Reyes and Castillo. While the lineup is constructed in a way to best utilize strengths and hide weaknesses, is that value negated by the fact the Reyes will recieve roughly 40 PAs less than he would as a leadoff man. That is unless the lineup analysis takes that into account, which it probably does.
It does, not that I've done any in-depth analysis for the Mets.
Now I’m motivated to go re-read that chapter of The Book.
Castillo as a #9 aint’ a bad option, either, especially if he’s a .350 OBP, .300 SLG guy this year.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Rec'd
Man, just imagine how weird it’s gonna be when Jerry comes out next week and starts talking about the pitcher batting sixth . . .
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Feb 17, 2009 7:56 AM EST reply actions
someone should write an email to marty noble with this data
i’d love to see his response to an email suggesting that manuel should bat the pitcher sixth…
by englishgrey on Feb 17, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Delgado projections
if those come true, I’ll be happy as a clam.
Giving ~50 PAs to Wright by having him bat 2nd instead of 5th seems like a no-brainer.
Factoring in a little of "The Book" method
Here’s my lineup:
Reyes
Wright
Delgado
Beltran
Murphy/Tatis
Church
Castillo
Schneider
Basically put the 3 best hitters hitting #1, #2 and #4. I don’t think Castillo should be hitting anywhere but 7th or 8th (or 9th?).
by James Kannengieser on Feb 17, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions
Castillo
It doesn’t surprise me that Castillo batting lead off produces a quality lineup. His very good OBP plays well with quality hitters behind him, but his lack of SLG doesn’t fit well at the bottom. Getting on base for the pitcher or the 8 hole guy just doesn’t translate into runs.
vs RHP vs LHP
Castillo Castillo
Reyes Reyes
Wright Wright
Delgado Beltran
Beltran Delgado
Church Tatis
Murphy Church (Kielty?)
Scheinder Castro
You have to go to team depth charts to see for individual players
They haven’t updated the players cards yet as far as i know.
Ah, thanks
Nice to see how optimistic PECOTA is about Putz; projects him to have a better ERA and WHIP than Frankie.
The spreadsheet
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
Well Beltran just ended this debate
"Other than that I don’t care [about the batting order]… when you’re good, you can hit anywhere."
Sorry the rest of his quote was
“I believe that you hit in a part of the line up once. Other than that I don’t care [about the batting order]… when you’re good, you can hit anywhere.”
Source?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 25, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the linup I would like to see:
Reyes
Beltran
Church
Wright
Delgado
Castillo
Tatis/Murphy
Schneider
Pitcher
Call me a traditionalist.
Reyes
Castillo
Wright
Delgado
Beltran
Church
Tatis/Murphy
Schneider
Pitcher
I just can’t imagine anything else, though Beltran in #2 intrigues me. But then where do you put Castillo?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I can't see any justification for putting Castillo 2nd
Yeah, he can bunt and move runners over, etc., but that stuff is overrated. Reyes, Wright and Beltran must hit in the first 4 spots in the order.
by James Kannengieser on Feb 18, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
I think the Lineup Generator putting Castillo 1st has merit
I could see how a good OBP, bad SLG should be 1 since it’s less likely that there will be runners on base for the 1 hitter. All of Reyes extra base hits would have a higher chance of occuring with runners on base batting lowering in the order. Obviously, if batting Castillo 1st would take away PA by one of our big three, I would be against it, but I wonder what the difference in PAs for a leadoff guy is over 2-3-4.
I can buy that
Still, for me, I’d rather see him bat 9th and act as a 2nd “leadoff” guy to get more PA’s for Reyes, Wright, Beltran, etc.
Who's world is it? It's yours.
Here we go:
Courtesy of Mets 2008 Baseball Ref Page:
- 783 PA’s
- 762
- 747
- 732
- 711
by James Kannengieser on Feb 18, 2009 9:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Here is the line-up that will work
Reyes
Murphy / Church – depending if it is Murphy or Tatis in LF
Wright
Beltran / Delgado – Beltran in 4 if he is hot or if Delgado is cold
Delgado / Beltran – This spot is for the one that is in a slump
Church / Tatis – depending if it is Murohy or Tatis in LF
Castillo / Schnider – Whoever is hitting better
Schnider / Castillo / Valentin / Castro
Pitcher
Brought to mind by his GS today...
I guess my problem with Reyes hitting in the 3 spot or lower down is this. You know how he sometimes gets it in his head that he can be a power hitter? And then he starts trying to hit the ball in the air a lot? And then he flies out a ton because when it comes down to it he’s not a big-time long fly ball home run hitter like Delgado, but more of a hit-in-the-gaps/doubles/triples power hitter with some HRs mixed in? My concern is that if Reyes is hitting #3, he’s going to get it in his head that that’s what he’s supposed to do and fly out a ton as a result.
So I guess if he’s going to hit #3, Jerry and HoJo need to be sure to tell him that he doesn’t need to change his approach. There’s nothing wrong with having Reyes’ kind of power in the #3 spot in the lineup. Keith never hit more than 18 HR, Olerud never hit more than 24 (22 was his max with the Mets) but they were still perfectly adequate in that spot.




























