Omar is an Idiot?
I dare say that fans on the other blog about the Mets will probably blame Omar for this too.
about 3 years ago
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I think a bunch of us on this site
were pretty sure that Sheets medical records indicated something serious. The lack of interest in Sheets made no sense, you know, unless it did.
Which makes perfect sense
I am just not a huge fan of base negativity, and it seems like over there that is the prevalant theme.
But still
Wouldn’t it make sense to negotiate with Sheets in order to try to hold down the price you would eventually pay for Perez or Wolf?
It doesn't seem like
Our negotiating or not negotiating with Sheets had much to do with the price it seems like it was more of a meet halfway to get signed thing.
Agree
I think it was key for Minaya to say he was interested in Sheets even after the medical staff red flagged him. Had Boras known the Mets had no intention of signing Sheets or Wolf then the price for Perez would go up not down.
Exactly
and you made a great point in your fanpost. What would have happened if Omar kept playing the waiting game to try and get Perez’s price down and this info came out? At that point, Boras would hold all the cards. All he’d have to do is show that his client is more valuable that Randy Wolf. Even if they project similarly, Ollie’s age and Wolf’s medical history clearly dictate that Ollie was the best remaining option, and I doubt 3/36 would have gotten it done at that point.
by Mark Himmelstein on Feb 5, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure it wouldn't have
Considering there still seemed to be little to no market for Perez, and considering Garland, who even though is a slight step down from Perez isn’t that much older, has been just as reliable injury wise and has consistently put up a low to mid 4 ERA and pitcher 200+ innings the last 3 years only signed for 1 year 7.25 million. I don’t see how, even with Sheets being not an option, Perez is suddenly worth not only more than 5 million per but 2 more years, considering there was little to no interest in Sheets even before this information was released and there still seemed to be no market for Perez why would this have changed that?
Practically speaking
I agree with most of what you said, but Boras is a master of manipulating markets. I don’t think Garland is a good comp. He’s clearly in a sharp decline, his k rate has been plummeting the last few years down to 4.12 K/9 last year. That’s a major red flag.
It is possible that the price for Ollie wouldn’t have shot up with the Sheets injury news, but the one thing it absolutely wouldn’t have done was go down. And knowing Boras, he would have found Ollie, at the very least, a higher AAV than $12 mil. The fact that he advised Ollie to take the three year deal rather than the four year deal already shows his confidence in Ollie’s present and future market value.
If the Mets we aware of the severity of Sheets injury, I can’t blame them in the least for taking their chances at upping the ante for Ollie a bit rather than waiting to see what happened. Especially so close to pitchers and catchers.
by Mark Himmelstein on Feb 5, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
i'm with gina
but just stress that Omar paid a premium for Ollie anyway, there being no visible competition, so Boras holding all the cards is moot. I’m sure Boras and everyone knew (or had better info than the blogosphere) about Sheets situation all along.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Feb 5, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Ummm, if no one else is offering Sheets a contract...
don’t you think Boras would think something is up? Don’t you think Boras has his own ways of finding information? I seriously doubt Boras would have believed the Mets were interested in a guy who had one team with lukewarm interest.
really?
it seems like most on this site were singing the praises of sheets in comparison to perez. and the ones who addressed the injury concerns basically oversimplified them by saying “if he misses 5 starts hes still worth the money we’d pay him” without addressing the possibility that he could end up missing a whole lot more than 5 starts considering its an elbow injury that held him out of the playoffs.
by Rob Castellano on Feb 5, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
I was one
I’ll admit it. I believed what was said about the nature of his injury.
But presumably a physical conducted by the Mets would have shown the same thing and they could have gotten out of the contract. In which case you would move on to plan B.
I don’t blame Omar for being scared off by the injuries, but I do think he mishandled the process of rounding out the starting rotation.
I was singing Sheets's praises...
I think it pretty much goes without saying that you don’t sign a guy if he can’t pass a physical.
not necessarily
i had wanted sheets much more than perez, even knowing he was an injury risk. we had heard nothing until now about any further injury to his arm so we had to assume he was no worse than he was at the end of last year (presumably better with rehab and rest). of course, it makes sense that this injury is out there, being that he hadnt had a single offer. but, based on our initial assumptions, i would have rather had sheets than perez because sheets would have come at a sustaintial discount. 2 years, $16 mil for a more talented and proven pitcher looks a whole lot better than 3 years, $36 mil. i understood that sheets is an injury risk, but to me, at that price, the risk was worth it. arent the mets taking a risk that perez can become an elite pitcher and earn his $36 mil?
"You know I am only teasing. I love you gals out there -- always have." - Keith Hernandez
To robcast
Two days ago I wrote:
Depending on the extent of Sheets injury
With no one interested except the Rangers (and even they have been cautious), I think Sheets is badly injured.
On Jan 22 Meddler wrote,
…Sheets’ arm falls off in his 7th start in a Mets uni. Its really not as unlikely as we like to think…
Also on Jan 22, I wrote,
it has to be pretty bad for teams to ignore Sheets for this long.
These are just what comes to mind, I felt like this site was doing pretty good job of taking the injury concerns seriously.
I'm too lazy to look right now
but I guarantee that you could pretty easily find at least 3, if not way more than 3 comments on this site criticizing Omar for going after Perez instead of Sheets. I myself was one of those, to be honest. But I don’t think it’s fair to criticize fans of other blogs for saying much of the same things that were being said here, especially when there’s so much else available to appropriately criticize them for. Now SIGN MANNY (j/k, sorta).
I was definitely one of those
and I admit this makes the Ollie signing a little better. I think about 2 weeks ago I wrote something like “Who else wishes we could un-sign Sullivan and Mackowiak to put the $$$ towards the Ben Sheets fund?”
by James Kannengieser on Feb 5, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
So how does Sheets look?
I understand that getting paid is getting paid. But to more-or-less demand a 2 yr guaranteed deal and know you’re going under the knife seems a little shady. If he doesnt make it back to pitching, he could sell used cars.
how pissed do you think he is
that he didnt take the brewers’ arbitration offer? he would have made about $13 mil this year. and how pissed do you think the brewers are now that he didn’t accept their offer? no compensatory draft pick.
"You know I am only teasing. I love you gals out there -- always have." - Keith Hernandez
arb
if sheets had accepted arbitration, the brewers could have released sheets before the season began and only be on the hook for about 1/6 of his salary. sheets probably thought he had a better chance of duping a team into giving him $5 -7 million guaranteed as free agent than make it through spring training with his arm in tact.
Sheets was conned
He could’ve stayed with the Brewers and went to arbitration and got 12-13 million. The fishy part of the story is the fact that the Brewers sent their doctor to check him and he came up with nothing? Did the man tear a tendon in his elbow in his sleep or what? I think the Brewers knew his tendon was torn and told the doctor to clear him so Sheets would feel more confident about being a free agent. Clearing the Brewers books of 13 million bucks.
But shoudn't Sheets be getting those things checked out himself?
I mean he has access to his own medical files.
Best post (question) so far!
How on earth does this guy not know he has this kind of ailment? Has he been in no pain?
When was the last time he had a real physical? Not a baseball physical but a real physical. You know: Turn your head and cough; pee in the bottle; I’m going to need some blood (you’re going to be here a while); bend over & spread ‘em (as he hears the sound of latex gloves snapping); put this led vest on because I don’t want to turn you into The Hulk when I irradiate your a$$ w/this expensive X-Ray machine, etc., etc.
I’m not going to give Omar credit for arbitrarily not picking Sheets. No one knows why Omar does what he does. He hardly comes out and states why he’s made a decision & when he does, it’s like trying to decrypt the Enigma machine from WWII. Unless Omar got word through a “source” that Sheets was bad goods, then Omar is still…Omar.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 5, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Give Omar credit for being shrewd enough not to tell the world
he wasn’t buying Sheets. Give Omar credit for signing Perez a week before this info became public knowledge. Give the front office credit for getting the medical report and recommendations correct. Imagine if it was Sheets who was signed last week and today we find out he’s out 6 months. Omar would get killed right? So then praise him for making a sound decision for the team.
I do believe that all players are contracted to see team doctors.
They can get second opinions but they would need to get permission from the team to do so. A regular check up does not probe deep enough to diagnose a tendon tear. That would require an MRI.
But he hasn't been under control of a team since FA began
And like I said before he has access to his own medical records. I’m pretty sure the Brewers couldn’t have omitted information if they had it.
He was under control of the Brewers until he rejected arbitration.
Sheets was not a unrestricted free agent after the world series. Maybe you’re right but to me a team like the Brewers that has a player who is arbitration eligible, who was the NL all-star starting pitcher, a potential cy young candidate and you just let him walk and wait for the compensatory draft pick? Maybe I’m reaching but it doesn’t make sense to me. The Brewers knew CC was gone, if they thought Sheets was healthy why let him go? They made no effort to sign him. Now they are without a 1 and 2 starter.
Can be explained away
I mean, it’s not like he wanted to come back for nothing and they just let him go. He wanted a multi-year deal for big bucks, and the Brewers don’t throw around that kind of money very lightly. They even offered him arbitration, which is incoherent at best if you assume they knew about the torn flexor.
Hey, we signed Elmer Dessens! Another $600k to waste.
True
but you don’t offer arbitration to someone you know is about to have TJ or other major elbow surgery, draft pick be damned. You also don’t offer arbitration to someone you don’t want back at the price tag they’ll likely be given at arb (see Burrell, Abreu).
That’s why the whole thing is crazy – both that the Brewers offered arbitration AND Sheets declined, AND the guy needs major offseason elbow surgery and is going to end up with nothing.
Major
Are you telling me a human being doesn’t feel pain when a tendon is torn?
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 5, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Where did I say that?
If you read the MLB.com article Sheets clearly had an issue with his elbow. He was told that rest should be all he needs by the Brewer doctors. I’m not clear on where I said that a torn tendon doesn’t equal pain. The issue is why the Brewer doctors supposedly didn’t find the tear when everyone else in MLB did. The Texas Rangers got a report from the Brewers’ doctors that indicates Sheets is fine but their doctors found a tear that needs to be repaired.
More evidence that the Brewers are either negligent or hide information, is the fact that the players association and MLB are trying to find out how much the Brewers would have to pay should Sheets have the surgery. If Sheets was fine why would the Brewers have to pay a single cent?
I’m no doctor so I can’t say how much pain Sheets was in but I know insurance like the back of my hand and you only pay when your guilty.
You seem to have intimated the fact.
A regular check up does not probe deep enough to diagnose a tendon tear.
My point is: How can Sheets not know something is wrong with him? Surely during the off season, he’s lifting weights, stretching, working on his pitching mechanics or something of this nature right? How is it that this guy goes almost an entire off season and doesn’t feel that something is wrong? Why does it take a doctor (from another organization) to find out if something is torn? Surely Sheets knew something was wrong after the season with Milwaukee. And if Milwaukee didn’t “find” anything wrong, he didn’t bother to get a second opinion? They told him to just rest it? O.K., after a month or two, then what? He still has pain. He goes back. What are they saying then? I’m blaming both Sheets and the doctors in Milwaukee.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 5, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Anecdotally speaking,
athletes play through all kinds of pain. I have no idea how painful a torn elbow tendon is, but is it possible that he just doesn’t notice the pain? Given that he apparently pitched with the injury, maybe he didn’t think it was serious enough to warrant surgery?
by BobbyV_Incognito on Feb 5, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
A quote
from Keith Law’s chat: "I know of at least one team that thinks [Sheets will] have TJ surgery this year.
In 20 years
we will get “End Quote and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull”
ha-ha-ha
by James Kannengieser on Feb 5, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
"Laying Down The Law III: The Last Quotation"
now see we went and made it worse
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Feb 5, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
thankgod
we knew the quote was over. I mean, I would have been hanging on all night for that “end quote”
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Feb 5, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
It was like the ending to The Blair Witch Project. What’s happening? Why is everyone leaving?
by BobbyV_Incognito on Feb 5, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Ok.
See, this information should have been out ages ago. In this case, I understand why Omar went after Ollie. It still doesn’t excuse the ridiculous price, though. And Lowe would have been better.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Come on.
Was the price on Ollie really that ridiculous? Do you guys see some of the contracts SPs get handed? Carlos Silva anyone?
Carlos Silva was last season and basically the only pitcher on the market,
Compared to some of the contracts that have been giving out yes 3/36 is semi ridiculous. It’s not horrible but it’s a clear overpay. Especially when there was no market.
Not to mention Seattles front office was just stupid. I don’t think the fact that the contract doesn’t look bad compared to a contract given out by a front office that was completely removed and replaced, and was responsible for the failure that was the Erik Bedard trade, really means much.
Two wrongs don't make a right
Just because the M’s screwed up and gave Silva a ridiculous contract (last year) doesn’t mean Ollie’s is good market value. It’s an overpay, but obviously I’d rather have Ollie than nothing.
I still disagree.
With baseball contracts you’re either going to have to give years, getting a break on the yearly salary, or give a higher yearly rate over a shorter contract duration.
Personally, with pitchers not names Johan Santana, I would rather pay a higher yearly rate over a shorter time frame.
And I know what the numbers say, but I would still rather have Perez than either Garland or Wolf.
Rangers Fan
As far back as, like, mid-season last year talks about Sheets came up, and I wanted no part in him because I thought he’d cost too much for the injury risk.
At some point, it seemed like no one else wanted him, and maybe we could get him cheap enough it wouldn’t be a big deal. I let myself get excited.
Then this happens. I never should have abandoned my first feelings. The man’s body is roughly made of dry Play-Doh.
Also, here’s some more info for you guys.
The surgery, to repair Sheets’ partially torn flexor tendon, is expected to be performed by noted orthopedist Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham, Ala. A source with knowledge of the situation said that Sheets is not expected to undergo Tommy John ligament replacement surgery.
Still, the elbow surgery likely will keep Sheets on the sidelines until August, or later. The right-hander was prepared to undergo surgery this week, according to sources, but those plans hit a snag over insurance issues and who would pay for it.
So again I ask:
The guy has to know about this weeks in advance, and he’s out there selling himself for a 2 yr, guaranteed deal? Thouroughly unscrupulous!
Yeah
I still don’t get why he declined arbitration. Or even why the Brewers offered it, when you think about it.
Unethical Brewers?
Maybe they had a “wink, wink” agreement. The Brewers stay mum about the elbow, and Sheets declines arb. Sheets signs with a team, Brewers get a draft pick, new team picks up the tab on the reconstructive surgery.
Could be.
But that would also require that Sheets’ new team’s doctors miss the injury. And I doubt that was going to happen, unless the Rangers have an extraordinarily great medical staff.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Feb 5, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Teams overlook MRI results more often than you realize.
Stephania Bell and Will Carroll always say that when you look inside a pitcher’s arm you will always see things that aren’t that pretty. It’s just the nature of being an MLB pitcher. The thing is, Sheets must have underestimated how bad his injury was.
Here's a wild idea I'll throw out there - I'm neither for nor against this, just want to put it out there
Signing Sheets to a 2 year deal of guaranteed money (maybe $4-5 million total? not sure what it would take) + incentives, with the expectation that he comes back in 2010 and is solid. Kind of like the Carpenter deal in St. Louis.
by James Kannengieser on Feb 5, 2009 5:13 PM EST reply actions
however
if we sign him before the draft in june, we would have to give up a draft pick as compensation. so dont be surprised if he is sitting out there until then and then a rush goes out on him right after the draft.
"You know I am only teasing. I love you gals out there -- always have." - Keith Hernandez
I honestly cannot tell if that was sarcasm or not.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Feb 5, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
pretty sure it was dripping wit the stuff
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Feb 5, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Totally off topic.
Sorry, but I’m watching my “Essential games of Shea Stadium” DVD, Game 5 of the ’99 NLCS – Rey Ordonez was so far beyond useless at the plate. In the bottom of the 6th, after 2 Ryan Klesko errors helped load the bases, Rey-O hits into an inning ending double play. In his next 3 at-bats he pops up bunt attempts. And in the bottom of the 14th, he got a 3-0 count and Benny stole second, he grounds out to 2nd. I forgot how bad he was in this game. Jeez.
Compared to Ordonez, Luis Castillo looks like Albert Pujols.
He sure could pick it though (career 310 SLG. SWEEET)
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Feb 5, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
oh absolutely
watching Rey Ordonez in the field was about as enjoyable as watching baseball can get. Watching him at the plate, on the other hand, was pretty much the complete opposite.
I forgot how good that infield was defensively. Alfonzo and Ventura just made things look so easy out there, and Ordonez was in another league. That said, re-watching that game, if Beltran was in center, I think he catches Keith Lockhart’s go-ahead triple, making the bottom of the 14th way less dramatic. Then again, with recent Mets teams they would have lost the last game of the season to the Pirates and it would have been moot, so what can you do.
HA
Rey Rey sure did like the eye-high fastball. Sheesh
In other news, the other blog has given up on F-Mart because he’s “always hurt”. Conclusion: the mets should sign Manny for 25 mill a year and trade the oft-injured f-mart for midseason relief help for pennies on the dollar. Thats how you run a baseball team
/obvious snark.
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Feb 5, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
that's why i always wish
Mr Simon would consider dropping Rey Rey down some notches on the All time mets list: his pop up bunt attempts are reason enough, but he was a cancer.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Feb 5, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
I did lobby to sign Sheets and underplayed his injury past which makes me feel foolish now…BUT I also said we should sign Perez because of durability, age and left handedness…which it looks like we did at the best possible time because surely his price would have gone up now.
BUT Omar is still an idiot…someone needs to go down to that bagel shop where he was getting advice about the bullpen and tell him about this player called Adam Dunn…I would but I live halfway across the world.
How is Omar an idiot?
Comments like this make me laugh. Sure, we’ve missed out on the playoffs the last two years, but the Mets have had good teams ever since Minaya has been here. Phillips had a pretty decent run, but IMO, those teams didn’t have great talent and relied a lot on Bobby V’s managerial skill and Mike Piazza.
People forget that the Phillies failed for a few years before they won the division these past few years. Gillick did a nice job of making minor adjustments around his core and not completely overhauling the team every offseason.
Seriously, what big moves did the Phillies make before last season? Off the top of my head, all I can think of is trading for Lidge. He also signed Werth, but that wasn’t considered a huge signing when it happened.
With that said, would I like to have Manny Ramirez or Adam Dunn in LF? Sure, who wouldn’t? But I’m not going to call our GM who has been the architect of an organization that has won 83, 97, 88, and 89 games since he took the helm an idiot because it doesn’t look like he is going to sign either player.
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