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Mets All-Time Defensive Team

(bumped from fanposts --eric)

Cjmulrain was talking about Rey Ordonez which got me thinking about who would be on the Mets all defensive team. My firsthand knowledge of the Nigh Mets only dates back to the early 90s, so some research is in order. (Skip these lines if you don't care about my method. The problem with feilding statistics are well known but I'm going to use the player's range factor vs the league average for respective position as well as my own personal thoughts.) So, with some Neil Young on my record player and the best whiskey under $30, I present to you the Mets All-Time Defensive Team.

Catcher

For a franchise that, until recently, couldn't find a third basemen as well as trouble at most every other offensive position, the Mets have been blessed at the catcher position. From Gary Carter to a All-Time single season catcher HR leader to Piazza and even Pratt, 06 Lo Duca and AA favorite Castro, the Mets have had a number of offensive catchers. However, none of these men can match the defensive ability of my pick for the Mets best defensive catcher, Jerry Grote.

Jerry_grote_autograph_medium

But don't take my word for it, let's get an unbiased opinion from his website/myspace page

"There was never any doubt that Jerry Grote was one of the best defensive receivers in the National League. He always handled pitchers well and had a rifle arm."

After a rough first season with the Mets in 1966 at the age of 23 (he made 11 errors and had his lowest fielding percentage of his career,) Grote established himself as one the best defensive catchers in the league, making the all-star as a starter in 68 with a season line of .282/.357/.349, 3HRs. In the magical 69 season, Grote allowed 31 SB while throwing out 40; Grote ended his career with a 38% caught stealing rate. The dude even played a handful of games at third for the Mets at age 34. Overall, I feel Grote place on the all-defensive team is not debatable unlike some other selections starting with...

First Base

This is obviously a two horse race between Rico Brogna and Tim Harkness or maybe between a man with a mustache and a man with a helmet. This is a pretty tough choice, both players were all-time greats and both have a special place in my heart. My pick...

Pg2_a_hernandez_200_medium

Range factor has Keith at a slight edge with his '87 season being his personal best. The real tipping factor for me was the fact the Mex changed the rule book, or rather, forced umps to enforce a rule already in the book. Keith would position himself in foul territory when receiving pickoff throws from the pitchers. This positioning allowed him to tag the runner faster...that was until his former manager, Whitey Herzog, called him out on it. Plus, I've won a good amount of money betting on pitch selection with my buddies using his advice. Simply put, if Keith was on the Mets now, his combination of a great batting eye and defense would make all of us at AA have a man-crush comparable to Jerry's.

Second Base

From one of the Mets best positions to one of their worst. Quick, name a great defensive second bagger for the Mets...I'll wait...I'm guessing you sheepishly thought Alfonzo but not too confidently. Looking up the numbers as well as thinking about it, Alfonzo was good at second not great which is all you need to make The Best Infield EVER when the guys around him are fantastic. Anyways, it's been pretty barren for the Mets at the groping over the clothes base. For guidance, my pops always said that my choice was the best defensive second basemen that the Mets  ever had and the numbers seem to back him up. At second base, the human bull's eye

64topps-235_medium

While on the Mets, Hunt was way above average at second base. He tailed off later in his career but that was after he left the Mets. To type any more about him would be disservice to you, read a superior writer's work.

Third Base

Like I alluded to before, the Mets history is pretty bleak when it comes to third basemen. HoJo was my favorite player as a kid but was never known for his D. Wright has made some great plays at third but isn't quite there yet. [Spoiler Alert] My selection will be the lone representative from the Best Infield Ever!

Large_nyy_nym_ven_042908drpg_medium

(No, that's not Mike Piazza, remember harder.)

Ventura only spent three seasons, but damn could he pick it. He had a number of errors but a number of them came from balls he had no business being able to field in the first place. A key cog of our black uni championship runs.

Shortstop

So, I didn't pick Ordonez, then who did I?

6665_medium

Bud Harrelson was an average SS over his career and had a couple of pretty good seasons with the Mets in his mid to early 20s. So, why not Rey-Rey? While Rey made absolutely spectacular plays, he's kind of like Jeter, wait, don't leave hear me out. Jeter has one main play, the one where he ranges to his right, grabs a grounder and makes a leaping throw to first. It looks good but that's basically it for Jeter. Ordonez had a similar trademark, he would range right, slide, plant and throw. It looked awesome, (Rey, had other moves as well) but the fielding numbers show Ordonez as average, nothing more or less. His stature is mostly due to highlight reel plays, but I can remember that he would botch some real easy ones as well. Harrelson on the other hand, was solid but unspectacular, which is boring but, according to the numbers, makes him better than Rey-O. I understand if you disagree, tell me in the comment section.

Left Field

Endy_chavez_catch_medium

Center Field

This is also obvious, Bernard Gilkey sans that one play where a flyball was hit to him and he didn't even get his glove up, I shit you not, the ball actually hit him in the head. Enough, for real, it's this hunk of man.

Sexy_beltran_medium

I don't care what the numbers say (Yes, I do, and they say he's awesome) just watching Beltran play I know no one is better than him. It's been said over and over but everything he does looks so effortless, just gliding under balls that Jim Edmonds would dive for, gracefully covering for Floyd, Green, Alou and Diaz. That catch in Houston on that stupid incline in extra innings was clutch. I hope all Mets fans realize how special what they're watching is.

Right Field

I kind of just assumed Strawberry would be here but his numbers are pretty bad. In fact, it took me a while to find any worth anything playing RF for the Mets. (To be fair, Shinjo's 2001 in RF was pretty good) That was until one man stood above the shit.

Youngblood_medium

Eric covered Joel Youngblood here, As Eric, mentions, Youngblood was a utility player that could never really shake off the label. The number speak well of his play in RF, really well actually and with little competition I'm sticking to it. It's a fitting end to my post about all-time Mets players that the best RF was a utility player, no one said being a Mets fan was easy.

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Agree with most

But I just can’t accept Rey Ordonez being average. I know it’s good to be skeptical about the guys who make spectacular plays (usually to cover up for a lack of range), but Ordonez covered a ton of ground and made spectacular plays. He made plays on the right side of 2nd base fairly frequently, and used to get to a lot of balls that got past the third basemen. He wasn’t as good as Reyes at getting pop ups down the line, and I don’t think his arm was as good as Reyes’, but he wasn’t too shabby at either of those facets either. And while he occasionally missed a few easy plays, he also set an ML record for consecutive errorless games at short. I don’t think fielding stats are accurate enough yet for me to look at them and say that Ordonez wasn’t at least a very good shortstop, if not a great one.

by cjmulrain on Feb 5, 2009 10:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

1999

When he was at his best in 1999, he only made 4 errors, which I think shows that could be reliable as well as spectacular. However, I was surprised to see that his range factor per 9 in ’99 was less than league average.

"Since we became accelerated readers, we never leave the house." - Los Campesinos

by Shomov on Feb 5, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RF is a bad stat

but by the end, Ordonez was a shell of himself defensively.

by jasondg on Feb 5, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jason. just to let you know

I used RF more to narrow down my choices, then I went with a lot of gut feelings and such, I’m guessing you prefer Ordonez, why?

by Sokojoe on Feb 6, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't necessarily prefer Ordonez

was just saying RF is a terrible stat, generally. Not opposed to gut feeling for the nostalgic stuff and your post is great stuff.

Ordonez’s slide move to his right was pretty legendary, though.

Maybe throw Elster and Rafael Santana in the conversation?

by jasondg on Feb 6, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree for the most part

I knew SS would be the most debatable selection, I wanted to hear other opinions. But I’m still sticking with Bud… for now.

by Sokojoe on Feb 6, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How could anyone forget that Piazza impersonation?

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Feb 5, 2009 10:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

that was awesome

Was that in ’99 or 2000?

by cjmulrain on Feb 5, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Voltron is a beefcake

And I mean that in the most hetero way possible.

In other news, Tim Teufel got screwed by Bernie Madoff too.

by James Kannengieser on Feb 5, 2009 10:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

half the Mets org

did appearently. Freddie was a booster of Made-off.

by DoctorK16 on Feb 5, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Voltron is definitely a beefcake

And I mean that in the most flamboyantly gay way possible.

by Eric Simon on Feb 6, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well

At least Heilman’s not around anymore to blow that 800-0 lead or whatever it was.

by Meddler on Feb 6, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

best fielding pitcher

Darling? Glavine? Johan? That’s off the top of my head. Who else?

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!

by kingcritical on Feb 5, 2009 11:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good point

I wanted to leave that for the community, personally, I would go Darling but then I would seem to be biased towards the SNY broadcast booth.

by Sokojoe on Feb 6, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really

Matt Yallof is a dogshit fielder and everyone knows it.

by Eric Simon on Feb 6, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa

be careful Yallof graduated from Muhlenberg College and you know how those Evangelical Lutheran’s can get about fielding…boy I’ll tell ya…hoo hoo…man those…I mean….what the hell were we talking about?

by Sokojoe on Feb 6, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i know one person who goes to the Mule

and he’s catholic. never thought about it…. wait, what?

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Feb 6, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the only thing Glavine was best at

was having the crappiest first and last game as a Met possible.

by cjmulrain on Feb 6, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Aguilera

Aguilera had some ridiculuous defensive stops as well

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on Feb 6, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Olerud

gives Keith a run for his money, doesn’t he?

by jasondg on Feb 5, 2009 11:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wrote an article an esoteric Mets website about a year ago on historical Met fielding...

I think it’s pretty good, but I’m probably biased.

Oh, and there’s a typo: Keith Hernandez did not save 437 runs above average. I’m guessing it’s either 43, 37, or 47.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Feb 6, 2009 8:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice Article

That outfield in ’88 was atrocious. Have you calculated how many games they would have won with a league average outfield?

"Since we became accelerated readers, we never leave the house." - Los Campesinos

by Shomov on Feb 6, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't nearly as bad as those numbers suggest

It’s an interesting concept I don’t have a lot faith in that methodology. Even looking at the examples, I’m suspicious. Does anyone think Mike Cameron’s fielding performance varied as wildly thos numbers suggest.

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on Feb 6, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a pretty solid methodology, although it does include a lot of noise.

One season, sure, random crap happens. Over multiple seasons and career I’ll pay a lot more attention.

I’d love to hear possible 1986 explanations.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Feb 6, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I mean '88

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Feb 6, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's about 10 runs = 1 win

So -111 runs is about 11 wins worse than with an average defense.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Feb 6, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cut Gilkey some slack!

That ball only hit him in the head because he was distracted by an alien spaceship.

by JoshNY on Feb 6, 2009 8:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

That’s the funniest thing i will read all day, and its 717 my time (and i’m on vacation (by vacation I mean, sitting on my ass reading blogs for 8 hours)).

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Feb 6, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I do what I can

It’s important to distinguish Gilkey getting hit in the head by a fly ball in a movie (while distracted by an alien spaceship) from Jose Canseco getting hit in the head by a fly ball (which then bounced over the fence for a HR) in real life.

by JoshNY on Feb 6, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ordonez

My opinion of Ordonez is that he’s quite overrated defensively and certainly not worth having his bat in the lineup but still quite good. We don’t have PBP defensive stats going back through history, but the best of what’s left do think of Rey Ordonez as a comfortably above average defensive shortstop. Win Shares gives him a career mark of 6.32 WS per 1000 defensive innings (an A-) and deserving the Gold Glove in 1999, finishing second in two other seasons (1998 and 2001). Baseball Prospectus gives Ordonez a 105 career Rate2, which is a fairly similar rating to WS and likely gives him the Gold Glove in 1999.

Harrelson has a 5.71 WS/1000 innings rating (a B+) and a 100 career Rate2. Win Shares has him deserving the Gold Glove in 1971.

In the end, I have Ordonez a little ahead of Harrelson, though Harrelson probably accumulated more total value over his career.

by Alex Nelson on Feb 6, 2009 9:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

STATS zone rating goes back to 1986

TotalZone goes back to 1956, although it becomes less useful going backwards as retrosheet data loses specificity.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Feb 6, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Love the pic of Mex in the dugout with a cig. Thats awesome.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Feb 6, 2009 9:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

agree

smoking is cool and keith looks like a total badass.

by englishgrey on Feb 6, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Catcher

I always feel compelled to defend Gary Carter a little. He did have possible the worst throwing arm in the NL by ’87. However, he was exceptional at pop-ups, had very few passed balls, prevented many WPs, and was terrific at blocking the plate.

The poor arm tends to be the gold standard for determining ‘good defensive’ catchers, but I still say his other strengths made him better than average.

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on Feb 6, 2009 10:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Straw

Strawberry had many Manny Ramirez like blunders out there… but, goddam, he had a cannon.

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on Feb 6, 2009 10:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

My Take

CA: Grote
1B Keith Hernandez (best all time)
2B Brian Giles
SS Bud Harrelson
3B Ken Boyer
LF Cleon Jones
CF Tommie Agee
RF Joel Youngblood

by acerimusdux on Feb 6, 2009 1:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Argument for Fonzi

Seriously … Ron Hunt at second? Honestly, I thought “Fonzi, who else is there?” Edgardo Alfonzo had the misfortune of having two of the most flashy infielders in the league playing to his right. He was average in range, but the Mets never had steadier hands at second base then when Fonzi played. He was by far and away the most consistent second baseman the Mets ever had. I date back to the early 80’s, so I never saw Hunt play, but from the statistical numbers Alfonzo’s time with the Mets flat out dominated Hunt’s in defensive categories. From 1963 to 1966, Hunt played 420 games at second and committed 64 Errors at 2B, while Fonzi played in 524 games at second from 1995 to 2002 and committed just 31. In fact, from 1999-2001 Fonzi played in 426 games and committed 22 Errors (nearly 1/3 that of Hunt in the same body of work). Now Hunt appeared to have greater range from the number of PO, A, and DP, but he had nothing on Fonzi’s glove.

I also agree that Santana and Elster should get mentioned in the SS discussion (especially Elster’s record setting 88 games without an error).

by CrowdPleaser on Feb 6, 2009 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My picks used stats

are more of a guidance, but for what it’s worth, I find errors to be very subjective. In no way was Fonzie a bad second basemen, just from a little research and my father (Basically watched every Mets game since 62) saying Hunt was better, I went with Hunt. This list is by no means definitive, just my opinion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

by Sokojoe on Feb 6, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't mean to take away from the Endy selection...

But honorable mention to Kevin McReyonlds. Deadly accurate throwing arms, always go a good read, vacuum-like glove.

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on Feb 6, 2009 3:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I was looking up info on LF

and was surprised how good McReyonlds was rated, one of the top Mets LFs.

by Sokojoe on Feb 6, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At the time, some argued he was best in the league.

18 Assists is nothing to sneeze at. He and David Cone were my favorites on the ’88 team. But he got hurt the next year, and then started to slide all around.

"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner

by dissento on Feb 6, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Roy McMillan SS NY METS

he was the best I ever saw in a Mets uniform, if only for a short time.
Went deeper in the hole then anyone, and before he got hurt, had a gun for an arm.
Anyone remember?

PS Kevin Mac was real good in left too

by throwhome on Feb 14, 2009 9:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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