about 3 years ago
James Kannengieser
297 comments
17 recs |
Comments
Synonyms
Dirtbag
Dickass
Douchenozzle
Gritmeister
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Look at his hideous, despicable face. No one could love him.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I wish I could rec this a million times
"This is the beauty of baseball. In basketball, at the end of the game, you want to put the ball in your best scorer's hands. But in baseball, it's up to a rookie like McGlinchy and a journeyman like Franco with the entire season on the line. Baseball history is dotted with names like Al Weis and Brian Doyle, men who have taken their name out of the agate type and placed it into the headlines, because it was simply their time."
Brilliant
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah
After seeing that replay, there’s really nothing to add to this. Ridiculous.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on May 7, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions
What made it all the more infuriating
First of all, Victorino was already out. Feliciano struck him out swinging, and Angel Hernandez granted him a second life saying he tipped it. Then, Castillo executed that play perfectly. For all the crap we give him, that was a heads up, well executed play, to throw to first on that slow grounder and get Victorino in a rundown for two outs. And what do the Mets get for solid execution? A bum call.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
just a blatantly horrific call
if a met does that they probably have to forfeit the game or something.
When asked why I was a Mets fan, I responded, "pain is my lifeblood."
Glad Jerry got tossed on this one
Just complete BS. I wish we we’re playing the Phils tomorrow so Niese could plunk him.
Omar should show some edge
and do something. I’ll settle for filing a complaint, a la Fredi Gonzalez.
What's really annoying about this
is that Arod has been called bush league for the slap of the glove. He will never live it down. But Dick Torino, he will be applauded and called hard edged by the stupid talking head media and will not be called out for this.
by aparkermarshall on May 7, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions
Now that I am not pissed anymore
This play gave me flashbacks to the Marlon Anderson play. Both plays towed the line of being legal. Both were dick moves by the players. Both plays could have went either way. The umps made both calls on reputation, not on what actually happened. This is what drives me insane. If fines are to be levied out for this game, it should go to the umps for screwing up royally all game (not just this play), and maybe Jerry, if he made contact with the ump (I don’t remember seeing any but someone made mention to it). If its not Victorino, I don’t think the ump calls a obstruction here.
Look, all I know is that we took 3 of 4 games from of this team and in order to be close in this game, they had to resort to “bush league” tactics in order to do so. That, my friends, is showing grission.
I don't think Torino should be fined
but he sure as hell shouldn’t be praised for “playing the game the right way,” “respecting the game,” etc. He doesn’t do any of those things. He’s a bush league d-bag.
right but I think someone in the commish's office will overeact and fine him just the same
I can’t believe I’m saying this but where’s McCarver’s self-righteous attitude when you need him?
Actually
I think no one outside of NY ever talks about it. Shame.
Well we'll see tomorrow
They’ll put up highlights for it, cuz Jerry got thrown out of the game and if he’s fined, even more publicity.
I don't think he'll get fined
But he should get warned. I don’t think he actually will, but he should get a slap on the wrist from the league and told to knock it off. Then, if he keeps doing it, you punish him.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
At that point,
You might as well tell the starter on june 9 to hit him cuz if its a slap on the wrist, he won’t give a rat’s ass.
He should
I just don’t think there’s really any official action the league can take, the umps blew the call and they’re not going to want to publicly admit that, but Vic Torino’s been doing this stuff for a while and the league should at least let him know they’re aware of it and that he needs to knock it off. And then the Mets need to do the same, in fewer words and more baseball-shaped bruises.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I sort of compare this to the A-Rod slap
and the Sean Avery bush-league stick waving thing he did last year. Because those happened in the playoffs and involved media villains, they got lots of attention. This won’t get any.
Jerry will be the asshole for bumping the umpire.
Did he bump him?
I know they mentioned on the broadcast but I didn’t see it.
I didn't see it, but others did
Seems hard not to bump an ump when you’re right in his face arguing.
It looked like the brims of their hats colided
Completely unintentional. So obviously, its all Jerry’s fault.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
He plays the game hard, but there’s something about him that just rubs me the wrong way.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I missed this play when it happened
Did any of our announcers advocate hitting him in the neck with a pitch? I’m guessing ‘no’.
Is the replay anywhere online?
Obviously, ESPN.com isn’t showing even a little bit of it.
Of course not
They need to debate Manny’s suspension and then cut to two talking heads on a split screen. Actually, that’s SNY…
by All Shook Down on May 7, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
nice find
That’s BS. At least it didn’t cost us the game. We won despite the ump’s playing favoritism for the Philis all game.
by dulciusEXasperis on May 7, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Just saw it on Sportscenter
and Karl Ravech or whoever was like “Jose Reyes interferes with Victorino here” and then precedes to talk about the cap bump between the umpire and Jerry Manuel and show that in slow motion.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
They just did it again on Baseball Tonight
Eric Young did defend Reyes there though, and they highlighted Victorino’s move, but didn’t seem to have a problem with it.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Check my link above
Full video. It’s clear Victorino goes out of his way to hit Jose.
by Lunkwill Fook on May 7, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It is not as cut and dried as you might think
This section of the official rules covers this play: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/07_the_runner.pdf
It mentions nothing about initiating contact, and it is noteworthy that no tag attempt was being made at the time of the obstruction. In this case, the base runner establishes his own base path (he can go towards home if he so chooses as long as no tag attempt is being made) until a tag attempt is made, then he can move no more than 3 feet to either side to avoid the tag. So even though Victorino does indeed initiate contact, he has the right to advance in any direction in an effort to get to second base. As much as I hate to say it, the umpire made the right call. Obstruction is one of the most difficult and misunderstood calls in baseball. We spent two days on it in umpire school.
I am a Mets fan, tried and true. I hated to see this call go against the Mets, but I do believe it was the right call, given how the rule has been explained to me by Major League umpires. It also differs from the Marlon Anderson play (and recently Hanley Ramirez) in that neither player made an effort to reach second base while hoping to break up a potential double-play. Marlon was called out, Hanley was not and it resulted in a huge Mets loss and a fortunate Fish win. They cannot and would not be called out for running out of the baseline as that call can only be made during a tag attempt, neither which occurred on those plays.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
as a little league and high school travel league umpire
We are told, explicitly NEVER to call interference or obstruction unless it is absolutely blatant: i.e. someone runs right in front of the runner/fielder, the runner falls down or someone tries to deliberately injure the other. I can’t imagine it’s any different in the MLB
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
It's also just a bush-league dipshit move
that you wouldn’t expect from the hard nosed paragon of sportsmanship and goodwill, He Who Plays The Game The Right Way, Vic Torino. The Sean Avery stick-waving was legal when he did it, too.
I'm not arguing with that point
I agree totally, but he also made the rule work for him, which if it had been the Mets getting the benefit of the call you would certainly have no problem with it, as would I. MLB Network Joe Magrane just said, in reviewing the play, that “as a major league player, in that situation, you are looking to make contact with a fielder when he is not in possession of the ball.” That is a savvy player knowing the rule and how it should be applied. I HATE to admit it about Victorino, but it was a smart play.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
just like ARod calling "I got it" as he ran the bases, right?
Technically within the rules of the game. Smart play. Yet for some reason, nobody praises ARod for being a smart player.
"This is the beauty of baseball. In basketball, at the end of the game, you want to put the ball in your best scorer's hands. But in baseball, it's up to a rookie like McGlinchy and a journeyman like Franco with the entire season on the line. Baseball history is dotted with names like Al Weis and Brian Doyle, men who have taken their name out of the agate type and placed it into the headlines, because it was simply their time."
They are both bush league plays
That is not the question here. The question is was rule 7.06 applied correctly, and IMO the answer is yes. I have submitted this question to the umpires at the Harry Wendelstedt Umpire school for their interpretation. I have no idea if they will reply but if they do I will share it with the group.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I think you're arguing against yourself here
seems like most people are saying while it might be per se legal, it was a bush league play that shouldn’t be legal and Victorino should be scorned for it.
"This is the beauty of baseball. In basketball, at the end of the game, you want to put the ball in your best scorer's hands. But in baseball, it's up to a rookie like McGlinchy and a journeyman like Franco with the entire season on the line. Baseball history is dotted with names like Al Weis and Brian Doyle, men who have taken their name out of the agate type and placed it into the headlines, because it was simply their time."
Maybe you can't imagine it
But as one who has attended several umpire schools, all run and taught by Major League umpires, what I wrote is not only what they teach, but also how the rule is interpreted. If you actually read the section of the rules that pertain to this, the only time umpire judgment is used is to determine the penalty, not whether obstruction actually occurred. Obstruction is not a judgment call. How you are being told/taught to apply the rule involves more arbitrary judgment than the rule as it is written.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
did you read the rulebook?
Rule 7.09j Comment says that you should only call it when such a call is “obvious”
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
7.09(j) deals only with a catcher and batter-runner between home and first
Did I read the rulebook? The question is did you? Ever?? Because if you did, you would not be arguing this point.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
With whom?
Can’t argue the rulebook, no matter what you think.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
But it's an interpretation.
The rulebook isn’t being disputed, the fact that Shane Victorino elbowed a fielder who was moving out of the way is. And in that regard, he is guilty and deserves no benefit of the rules, whether or not it’s correct. Obviously, it could have gone either way depending on the umpire, but a good ump wouldn’t have even let him on first in the first place. Then, after doing that jackass move to get the call, it’s pretty clear what the rules SHOULD be implicating. Do you disagree with THAT, at least?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
No, it is not an interpretation, it's an application of the rule
Because the rules do not allow for my interpretation, as an umpire, rule 7.06. Nowhere in that rule does it mention that the runner cannot initiate contact. Nowhere. Nor can I, as a good umpire, allow the fact that a mistake was made at home plate on a swinging third strike affect my judgment on any call made after that. The rule is very clear, the runner has the right to advance to the next base or back to the one he left, by any means available, and the fielders shall not obstruct in any way.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I'm not blaming the umps, I'm talking about Victorino.
He deserves to be beaned next time for being physical towards one of our players. That is all.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
No doubt
If I were a pitcher for the Mets, he would be on his ass. Without question.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Theoretically
under your application of the rule, a player can run wherever he wants, initiate contact with some other player on the other team, and get the obstruction call.
That is correct
He can try. But you’ve never seen it and likely never will, beyond what you saw tonight.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Besides
the Torino gif above. Because it’s a bullshit play. And the rule is stupid.
The rule may be stupid, in your opinion
But it is the rule, and until it is modified, all MLB and other umpires that adhere to enforcing these rules must apply it as it is written.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
They can start
by following the strike zone rules. No?
Different issue
The strike zone is defined as the top of the bottom of the knee to the mid-point between the waist and the top of the shoulders, when taking a swing. That leaves a lot of room for personal interpretation. You should try calling a game behind the plate sometime, it’s not easy.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I'm just saying
no umpire should have a wide or tight strike zone. They should all call the game roughly the same way.
I agree
But I can’t even do that from game to game because the players are all different. It is, by its very nature, subjective.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
That's a bit easier
But it’s still subject to the umpire positioning, game conditions, etc. It’s a tough job, trust me.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
dude
I ump, again. I’ve never done levels higher than high school, but I’ve never had trouble calling inside/outside. Then again, I’m told I have a fairly wide zone.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
hey
it’s not really that hard, either. Granted, my kids are only throwing 70, 75 tops, but you get a good feel for whether you’re going to call a pitch a strike out of the kids hand.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow
That’s a very interesting comment. I bet you get a lot of arguments come your way.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
nope
I’ve been doing it for about 4 years, only ever tossed one coach and that was for arguing about a clear balk.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
The balk rule is stupid and makes no sense.
It was written a while ago, and honestly doesn’t do much. Mike Gonzalez rocking on the mound is 100 times more distracting than Pedro Feliciano twitching briefly. But because it’s the rule, you still think it’s right, no one should oppose it in their opinions, and that umpires who call it are not only right but shouldn’t be argued with???
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Or
they could just call Andy Pettitte for balks, like they should be.
I agree there too
I think he balks a lot. But I’m not on the field to call them. Perhaps I should be?
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Never said that
I hate the Mike Gonzalez rocking motion but it is his natural pitching motion and as long as it is it can’t be defined as a balk. A balk is an intent to decieve the runner, and if you start your motion and then stop, that’s a balk, no matter how small the twitch.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
But if there's no intent to decieve, it isn't really a balk.
It’s really quite a subjective thing, to be honest. I could say Gonzalez’s motion is trying to decieve the hitter into thinking he’s going into his motion before he really is, as his body is always moving.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I agree
That’s why in most cases a balk is a subjective call. Take the Eckstein call a few weeks back. I believe if Eckstein does not wave his arms and call balk that the umpires will not call it.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I thought there is no "intent to deceive"
in the rulebook.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
who ever said that?
It’s in the rulebook.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
clearly
Pettite is attempting to deceive the runner with his pickoff move, yet that’s never called
I didn’t think Gonzalez did all that shit except when there was nobody on base
this
Gonzalez stops wiggling when he is pitching from the stretch.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on May 8, 2009 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Clearly
So why it’s not called is beyond me.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
That is incorrect, he cannot run where he pleases…he is between 1st and 2nd and has to remain in the baseline between those two bases. The baseline is a judgment call, but generally you have to be within a body length of the baseline, because you should always be in a line where you can touch the base.
Wrong dude
You could look it up.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
you are wrong…ridiculously wrong…otherwise no one would ever get called for running out of the baseline…
As much as I loathe Torino,
my understanding is that you only get called out for running out of the baseline if you’re doing it to avoid a tag.
As an extreme example, if a runner wanted to run from first to second by a circuitous route that took him around the right fielder, I don’t see why he shouldn’t be allowed to do so; he’s only hurting himself by picking a longer route between bases.
You are correct
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
And it's not my application of the rule
I was taught to apply this rule, and all the others of MLB, by MLB umpires in several umpire schools. I’m not pulling this shit out of my ass.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Please remember
That I am a Mets fan and hate the fact this call went against my team. But I believe the call was correct based upon the rules as laid down by MLB. The only option is to modify the rule to permit umpire judgment based on the intent of the runner, and that would be a very bad thing, IMO.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Is it or is it not bush league is the question, sir.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
read my reply
With this title: I’m not arguing with that point
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Ok, let me rephrase.
I AM saying it’s the wrong call. I also agree it was the CORRECT call. As an umpire, you should make the correct call. But as a person who loves the game of baseball, you know the play is wrong and that giving Victorino that benefit is wrong. So, I guess our difference is that I believe not playing the game like a d-bag and a self-entitled jackass is more important than following every rule and every subsection and clause to the punctuation marks, while you are saying the opposite, that the rules trump the subjective opinions of the fans, players, managers, and probably even umpires on a closer look. Both are valid opinions, but I really believe mine is more important in the long run.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
But an umpire
Can’t be subjective, like a fan. I’m not commenting on this as a fan, merely as an umpire. As a fan, I think the rule sucks as written and we got hosed. But as an umpire, the rules must be applied evenly and without prejudice. At least that should be your intent. It is mine, whenever I step onto the field.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I'm not arguing the umpire made the incorrect call at the time on the field.
In his position, I understand. I still think it’s stupid, but I understand. But if you were watching this from a booth, or a replay area, and had any vague understanding of baseball ettiquette, it’s painfully obvious that Victorino deserves nothing, even from an objective standpoint such as an umpire or an official, just out of bad sportsmanship.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
No argument from me
You just can’t apply that logic on the field, as an umpire.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
No
but as a fan, you have every right to believe the call was bad. You just can’t blame the umpire.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I agree
As a fan, I HATED that call. I’m just glad it didn’t cost the Mets the game, just two unearned runs and Reyes an error.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
As an umpire
I’m secretly happy whenever they get the call right. It’s a small fraternity, we gotta stick together dude.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
this is why my favorite sport is ultimate frisbee
the only rule is “the spirit of the game”
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
what about
no running with the frisbee?
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
the way ultimate works is
there are rules, but no refs. so they’re called by players only, and the idea is that you don’t take cheap shots and attempt to disrupt the intent/spirit of the game, from either side. technically you can call a foul on just about anything, and there’s really nothing the other team can do. but that’s terrible spirit.
if you ran with the disc, they’d call a travel. you could contest, but you’d be hated forever, i’m guessing.
When asked why I was a Mets fan, I responded, "pain is my lifeblood."
Golf works the same way
Players call their own infractions, that’s what makes it such a great game.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
wait
the dude who signed the wrong scorecard…implicated himself?
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Not exactly
But that is the one area where a player has called the infraction on himself. In the case of Roberto DiVencenzo, it was brought to his attention by his playing partner, then he went to the official scorer, confirmed the mistake and was DQ’d. It cost him the Masters, but earned him ultimate respect among his peers.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
well, not at every level
at like PGA level, there are officials that call stuff on players, right? i’m not sure.
in ultimate, there are observers at high level games (college nationals, club championships, worlds, and the like) but they only resolve disputes when both teams ask for their opinions, and most calls are settled by the players on the field.
When asked why I was a Mets fan, I responded, "pain is my lifeblood."
At all levels of golf
There are usually official scorers and a rules official with each group, but the rules official does not call infractions, he or she is there for rules application and interpretation. Players always approach them, not the other way. It is a very noble sport.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
that would not be with the spirit of the game
i actually have no idea – i dont play ultimate, at least not since summer camp, but my friend played at rutgers and apparently that really is the only rule, or the rule that trumps all other rules. i dunno, its a stupid sport.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
There's also no contact.
Believe me, I learned that one fast. It’s a big change from football to ultimate.
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 8, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm no rules expert
But I have two questions:
1. If its also clear that the fielder is attempting to move out of the baserunners way, is there no provision for this? My understanding was always that a baserunner has every right to initiate contact IF a fielder is not making an effort to get out of his way.
2. Isn’t there an element of “the spirit of the rule” to this? I mean, technicality is technicality, but in this situation, there’s no viable reason aside from technicality that a rule should be applied in this manner.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
What I read of the rule is...
- No
- No.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
What you "read".
But what about the obvious intent behind the rule? It’s like the Constitution: I bet if you asked the Founding Fathers about specific things that everyone wanted to keep in there, they’d say it’s open to interpretation and that rules were meant to be changed.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
But it's not subject to interpretation as written
If you want that subjectivity, then the rule has to be re-written.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
the rule also says
the ball has to be called dead at the moment obstruction is called. That didn’t happen.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
man
if only there was an actual umpire here to explain the rules, then we could settle this.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
by kendynamo on May 8, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am an umpire
I have the certificate to prove it.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
did that certificate
come with a sarcasm detector?
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
Nah
It came with Harry’s signature and a handshake from the man himself. A real nice guy, along with the 26 or 30 other MLB umpires kind enough to teach at that school.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
But you can
Email Harry Wendelstadt school and ask for their interpretation. It’s on the web.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Yes it did happen
If you watch the replay, even though Delgado pitched the ball to Wright, the umpire can be seen raising his arms and the play is being called dead.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Yeah I mean, by the book, that's what I figured
But at least regarding the second one, is there any precedent for that? Where its clear that a player is trying to gain an advantage on technicality alone, and an umpire made a call that may have contradicted the commonly held interpretation of the rule because he felt that the situation was not explicitly described in the rulebook?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
If he were to do that
He would make it very difficult on his partners and all umpires from then on. That’s opening Pandoras box.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I guess that's true
But isn’t that just a non-call rather than an rule bending call? I mean, couldn’t that be the intention of the rule being written that way? That the umpire has the right to enforce the rule or not enforce the rule at his discretion? Or is it explicitly stated that this rule is to be enforced anytime the baserunner (within the baseline) makes contact with the fielder?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow
If umpires could enforce or not enforce rules at their discretion, how could you ever trust the authenticity of the games? An umpires judgment must be above reproach.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Okay
Balks, strike zone — we’ve shown both are discretionary.
Especially balks
A balk is a balk is a balk. But Bob Davidson calls more of them than others. And none of them call it on Pettitte, who pretty clearly moves toward home as part of his pickoff move.
No idea why
It seems clear to me. And Balking Bob Davidson is my hero!
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
why?
Because he kills the spirit of the game? When we beat Benitez, he didn’t move.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Sarcasm dude
I mean, really. Get over yourself.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
It's a different issue
The strike zone is interpretive, to a degree, because every batter has a different shape during their swing.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
no, it's not
inside/outside of the zone, is the plate. As others before me have said, the plate doesn’t move.
If it wasn't interpretive
None of us would ever argue balls and strikes. You won’t win this one.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
not really
Apparently this rule isn’t interpretive but we’re still arguing it, and so did Jerry.
Players argue balls/strikes because they think the call was wrong, interpretive or not.
you could computers do call them
then no interpretation and no arguing
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
Where would the
Fun be in that?
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
i mean you could ger computers to call them
its too late for me to still be typing. good night everyone. f victorino in the effing a.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
Players and managers argue
Balls and strikes because they think the umpire made a bad call, but most of the time the player or manager is incorrect. No one has a better view than the umpire.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
dude
It’s hard to argue inside/outside calls when they’re right. I will win this one because I’m right. Yes, the at-the-letters vs. at-the-waist argument, and at the knees or below the knees or what is subjective. But white on white isn’t.
Or what about calling swinging strikes
If I’m not mistaken, the rule, as written, as nothing to do with “breaking the plane” or “breaking the wrists”. Its all about intent. So again, its discretionary.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Right
and to me, no player who checks his swing ever “intends” to finish the swing. He intends to swing and then he intends to stop. Every time.
Try attending an umpire camp
And ask that question.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Attend an umpire clinic
And ask about the check swing interpretation.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
That's correct
And it is up the the judgment of the umpire. And there are obviously a lot of different interpretations out there.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Okay
why is the balk rule not applied consistently/correctly?
How would I know?
I am not the MLB umpire official, just a humble local umpire offering my thoughts.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I can't possibly know
Why the call is not being made, I’m not on the field. No matter whether I had the “conceit of authority” or not.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Well then what about
Issuing warnings on HBPs. Again, discretionary, and although the rule is designed to be subjective, it seems to be that any kind of obstruction/interference call should always come with a degree of subjectivity to it, or you’re just asking for confusion and possible injury at some point
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
That rule
Was put in or modified to prevent beanball wars from happening, and it is very subjective. As written, it allows the first team to hit a batter and the other team cannot retailiate without penalty. A bad rule, but what is the alternative?
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I'm not saying that's a bad rule
Just an example of and umpire enforcing a rule at his discretion.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I never said
No MLB rules were not subjective, or applied at the discretion of the umpire. Just that 7.06 was not one of them.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
So its written as
When a baserunner stays in the baseline and makes contact with a fielder who does not posses the ball, that he’s automatically awarded the next base every time?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Well
apparently he makes his own baseline every time he changes direction, if I understand correctly.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
There's effectively no baseline involved here
he can run wherever he wants, so long as the defender doesn’t have the ball or isn’t in position to make a catch. That’s my understanding of zman’s explanation (not trying to be snide here).
Yeah
But I think the way I put it is technically the explanation for what you just said, just from what I remember about other rules discussions
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes!
That is exactly how it should be interpreted. You get an “A”
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
The baseline is defined
As three feet to either side of a player attemtping a tag, on a direct line to the next base or back to the base just vacated.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Really?
I thought in a rundown, every time the runner changes direction, he’s allowed to sort of establish a new baseline. I could have been mislead about that though since I don’t remember the source.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
There is no baseline
Until a tag is attempted. That’s also a misconception we all grew up with. Otherwise, every runner who hit an extra base hit would be called out rounding first as most of them do so after running 12 feet into fould territory, well away from the painted “baseline.”
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Interesting
A weird rule that no one knows that actually makes sense!
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Announcers are the worst
How many of them say, on the check swing, “he broke the plane, he’s out.” They sound moronic once you know the actual rule behind that call. They propogate more misinformation about the game than you realize.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Yeah
I kinda figured that out, but I’m sure just not having any better reference, plenty still seeps in on me.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
my rule
is whether the bat crosses 180 degrees to the pitcher. I don’t care about the wrists, it’s all bat to me.
I hope you never
Use that same language to defend your call, because a manager who knows the rulebook will eat you alive.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
oh i don't
when I get in an argument, I use the wrists. But that’s easier to see.
Gee
I was taught to use rulebook language if you ever get into an argument. apparently you were not taught the same way.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
most people don't know the rulebook
just simplifies things, everyone more or less assumes the “broke the wrists” rule is the rule/
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
And that's why
Most people misunderstand and assume the umpires do a shitty job. Because they do not know the rulebook, they only think they do.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Lol
And sorry to ride you so hard zn, I’ve seen this before, I’m sure you have too, and I’m sure you’re 100% correct. But we’re arrogant fans and we feel like if stupid Vic Torino can get away with a stupid technicality, surely we can find a technicality to counter that technicality lol.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Too late in the night
To accurately follow that line of logic, but I think I agree with you.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Lol
I was just apologizing for giving you such a hard time
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
No worries
I love a good debate, just wish I wasn’t fighting it alone.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
We're trying to understand
Not doubting that what you say is right — it just seems so absurd.
Read the whole rulebook
And then come ask me how much of it I think is absurd.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Lol
I took that test on the Wendelstet website, I got like the first two right and got all confident and then blew the next eight in a row.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
The actual umps
Always wind up like that. That’s all I was trying to say before, I’ve witnessed the phenomenon and it sure doesn’t seem pleasant for the guy who actually knows what he’s talking about.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
again
a by-the-book interpretation isn’t necessarily the way to call baseball games. There are always shortcuts any of us make, and that includes not making calls that just shouldn’t be made. If I’m an ump, I don’t make that call, and looking at it objectively, I don’t think I’m getting reprimanded.
We agree
To be different on that point.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
once again
you would agree that robots that understood the rulebook would be perfect?
What makes this game great
Is the fact that it is played, and judged, by humans. would you really want it any other way?
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Well
I think the issue is that major league umps seem to use their discretion all the time, and this seems like a good time to have also exercised it. I’m going to sleep.
Haha agreed
interesting discussion, but its making my head hurt. That’s for the insight znman, it was enlightening, albiet frustrating, though not your fault at all.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I loved the debate
See you guys later. Sorry for the head-hurting.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
No problem
Better to have it hurt and have learned something than have it hurt just because of my seething anger for that little-league helmet wearing bush-leaguer. Night all!
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
He looks
Like a bobblehead doll in that hat.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Alright, alright
I mean, you know what I’m saying. Either way, in this fan’s humble opinion, this is a terribly written rule, not just for the mechanics of the game, but for the sake of players. If this does become a trend in rundowns at some point, its going to eventually lead to some awkward, hard contact, and someone is going to get hurt, and it should be re-evaluated before that happens.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I have no problem reviewing the rule and maybe tweaking it, but I’m not in charge of that.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
let me ask you this
If they hadn’t called obstruction, could anyone really argue? No, right? It’s that simple. They made the wrong call.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Charlie Manuel
Would have come out of the dugout screaming and steaming, trust me, as would his first base coach.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I sincerely doubt it
The way I interpret obstruction as defined by the rulebook, is preventing a player from attempting to advance. Reyes wasn’t in the way until Vic Torino ran into him. It’s easy enough to see that. Torino created the obstruction, and frankly, it could’ve been called interference.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
No
Can’t be interference because by definition Reyes no longer had the ball and was not attempting a catch or tag. He was simply in the way. You cannot call interference there.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
But Torino
could have run all over the field and taken out each Met one by one?
I sure
They know how to get out of the way.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
But he just has to touch one of them to get the call
See how absurd this is?
ground ball to short
torino charges the mound, runs over the pitcher, then heads to first. No call. Sure.
Don't be a
Dickhead, of couse that is not the intent of the rule as written. Read the rule Devon, don’t just spout shit bro.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
again, man
the way you’re saying it, it sure is.
No Devon
Read the rule, please dude.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
again
you just said he could’ve taken the fielders out, one-by-one?!?!
Good night
Devon.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Good night
Have a great night, my friend.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
yeah, im with you devon here
call could have gone either way. maybe the ump didnt technically mess up but hes still a jerk. screw him.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
That's my argument.
Isn’t the whole intent of the rule to protect runners from obstruction of the fielders? So I’d think something could be said for the fielders being protected from the runners.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Rule 7.08
according to the rule book you cited in your post:
7.08 Any runner is out when—
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or
(2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
(a)(2) would seem to contradict my above post
I guess if you were so inclined, you could invoke (a)(2) and say that Torino had abandoned his effort to run to second by lunging at Reyes.
LOL
what a little douche. philly fans of course loved it because victorino is a gamer, but if reyes had done it, he would’ve have been disrespecting the game.
Wait
is this real?
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
Yeah, I actually watched that game. Same situation only worse and he got the interference call. Some umpires are truly idiots.
by Lunkwill Fook on May 7, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Read the rule
Then decide if umpires are idiots. It’s not a fair statement, at least not in this case.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/07_the_runner.pdf
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
My opinion?
Based on reading the rules, here is your issue:
You’re treating the act of fielding the ball as over when the ball is released. It’s not. The act of fielding the ball needs to include picking up the ball, throwing it, and then getting out of the way. This is interpretive. Jose CANNOT get out of the way because he was in the play. He cannot MAGICALLY disappear after he has released the ball. Therefore, the problem here is the DEFINITION of “fielding the ball” needs to be interpreted in a real universe.
Again, this is the point: in the process of fielding the ball, the player cannot disappear immediately after the ball is released. Therefore, the process out getting out of the way NEEDS to be included in “fielding the ball”. Therefore, when Victorino hit Reyes, he hit him in the process of fielding the ball.
Honestly, this is ridiculous. All rules are interpretive. Hiding behind them is BS. That umpire was an idiot.
by Lunkwill Fook on May 8, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
"fielding a batted ball" is not the same thing as "fielding the ball"
In that rundown, Reyes is clearly not “fielding a batted ball”
What's unreal
Ray Durham, Rich Aurilia and Omar Vizquel were playing on the same infield for a “rebuilding team” in 2008.
by All Shook Down on May 8, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
At least we still won
but why did Feliciano pitch to Werth…?
Yeah I wondered that for a minute
But four run game, 8th inning, and you want to avoid using Parnell, its kind of excusable that you don’t go to Putz there, probably hoping that Pedro gets Werth and you can use Putz in the 9th and give Frankie the night off. Hindsight is 20/20 though lol, since Frankie had to come in anyway.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
wait why do you want to avoid using parnell
or is that sarcasm?
But he's pitching well..
I just want to know where Stokes in all of this. The only reason i could come up with as to why he wasn’t used tonight was because he is going to be insurance for Niese tomorrow. Aside from him killing or maiming someone in management obviously.
Yeah that's a thought
Having him for insurance, but you also have Takahashi for that.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Because every time you warm up a pitcher even if you don’t bring them into a game, it’s essentially an appearance. You let Pedro pitch there because even a homerun won’t tie the game and it’ll hopefully save you in the long one (ie. Parnell will be fresher in September).
by Lunkwill Fook on May 7, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Stokes?
Stokes hasn’t pitched in forever. But he never even warmed up. WTF?
Again, none of this matters since we won, but there’s no reason not to have someone at least ready in case Werth does something. Of course, Ibanez was next anyway.
Also, I thought Jerry might have put in Putz because Frankie had pitched 2 days in a row already. Hmmm.
I think Putz was ready
But yeah, its bizarre that Stokes is MIA.
Frankie was declared available and asked for the ball before the game I think, so thats why he was in there for the save opp.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 7, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
Ibanez was after Werth, so if Werth gets on, you still want the lefty.
But he got the lefties you want in Utley and Howard
whatever we could argue all night about this. Summary: Torino=bush league; Mets = win.
victorino is a real sally d-bag
i’d like to punchersize his face for a dollar
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
I know I'm late to the party
But the little league helmet-wearing cocksucker needs to get drilled the next time these teams meet. I’m tired of his act. I’m sorry that he’s upset that his shit team can’t beat the Mets anymore. Stick it in his ear!
2009 Mets: maybe its the Phillies turn to have a terrible bullpen?
Agreed
As I said before, if I was a Met pitcher, he’d be on his ass for sure, first time up.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
It's late, and I'm tired.
So I didn’t make it through all 3,000 comments (but I really did try to read them all).
Why are any of us still talking about about what’s technically allowed in the rule book? vs. what’s not? vs. what should be? The only place on the field where you’re allowed to lower a shoulder and hockey-style check a guy is at home plate (where the guy is wearing pads).
It’s been a couple hours now, so I’ve had some time to cool off. (Holy lord was I pissed earlier, though.)
Anyway, despite my own anger/frustration/whatever… I have to say this: it’s the first week of May, and I am already very, very tired of the woe-is-me, “This [bad luck / bad call] wouldn’t happen to anyone except us!” thing. Yeah misfortune sucks. But this broken record really sucks.
Waaahhh, boo hoo, we didn’t get yet another call. I know a lot of calls don’t go our way. But can we all grow up and stop acting like it’s a conspiracy?
batting helmets. batting titles. obp.
The Mets
Have won 4 in a row, are within a half game of first place and have the Pirates coming in on an extended losing streak. We should be talking about that. We should be talking about taking 3 of 4 from the Follies and 2 in the ATL. I think the team is starting to play like it can, and more like we fans expect. We should be talking about that. Perhaps later today we will.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I am sorry that I am very late to the party
but I just don’t understand what you are saying zmanmetfan. Reyes was nowhere near Victorino and he had just thrown the ball. Victorino not only went out of his way to make contact, he slowed up and pushed his elbow directly into Reyes chest. Where in the rule is that legal and why? Because Reyes no longer had the ball? The rule as written(I did read it) says nothing like what you are saying. And all baserunning calls involve judgment, if it doesn’t affect the play you are not supposed to call it.
Please show me the rule where it says what Victorino did
In the context of running the bases and trying to keep from being tagged out, is illegal and not allowed? 7.08 is clear and if you read it and apply it correctly in this situation the correct call was made.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Zmanmetfan, q for you
OK, so the obstruction rule looks unfriendly to the Mets in this case. But isn’t there any provision somewhere in the rulebook that says it’s not OK to elbow a player?
Also, I still don’t see why 7.08(a)(1) can’t apply. At one point Dick Torino steps on the infield grass, then he moves at least three feet toward the outfield in the course of pushing away Reyes, while he is also running away from Delgado, who, until he throws the ball to second, is attempting to tag him. Unless there’s some very strict interpretation of the rule that bars that reading, it certainly seems like it could apply here.
I agree
I think this is aggressive contact in what is a nominally non-contact sport (or at least in a non-contact situation, i.e. not sliding into a base), and should be treated as such. He just flat-out shoulder-charged a fielder. Not allowed!
Show me where in the rulebook
It is not allowed.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
So wait a minute.
If you were umping a high school baseball game, and you saw this play happen and saw the runner move several steps out of the basepaths and aggressively shove the fielder who was out of the way and moving away to avoid contact, you’d honestly call obstruction? I understand it may technically be in the rulebook, but you can’t really call that.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
If I saw this exact play
At any level, I’d call obstruction. Do you have any idea how many times I call obstruction at first base because the damn fielder does not know enough to get out of the path of the runner rounding first? It does not matter that the fielder has no intent to obstruct, if he obstructs the runner it must be called.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
"Do you have any idea how many times I call obstruction at first base because the damn fielder does not know enough to get out of the path of the runner"
BUT REYES WAS GETTING OUT OF THE WAY OF VICTORINO. It’s clear as daylight in the replay. Reyes was in the middle of a run down where he was charging to tag Torino, threw the ball, and contorted his body to get out of the way of the runner. The runner then went OUT OF HIS WAY to plow into Reyes. That’s vastly different to a fielder just standing near first as a runner is rounding the base on a ball that’s hit in the gap. If you can’t see that, then I don’t think I’d want you umpiring my kids games.
"This is the beauty of baseball. In basketball, at the end of the game, you want to put the ball in your best scorer's hands. But in baseball, it's up to a rookie like McGlinchy and a journeyman like Franco with the entire season on the line. Baseball history is dotted with names like Al Weis and Brian Doyle, men who have taken their name out of the agate type and placed it into the headlines, because it was simply their time."
You're absolutely right
Because of your enlightened comments, I’m changing my opinion. Thanks. I hope this means I can umpire your kids little league games now.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I don't think I would want you umpring my games either, TBH.
This is a subjective application of the rules, and in this case you can’t call it. That’s why the 2B umpire (Welke1), who had the perfect view of the play, didn’t call it; and why the 1B umpire (Welke2), who had a less perfect view, did call it.
I think you’re defending the call because you want to seem like a fair and impartial judge and also you want to come to the defense of the fraternal order of umpires. That’s cool, but I’m just not going to take your word for it.
I take that back. I'm sure you are a fine umpire.
It’s just that your line of argument here seems to me highly inconsistent.
again why bother with any of this mumbo jumbo?
Reyes had gotten out of the way. Victorino sought to run into him. That is the end of the matter as far as I am concerned. and the rule does not suggest otherwise.
if it's any consolation
I wouldn’t. And I’ve seen plays like this happen, too.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
That's what I was asking you
I haven’t read the whole rulebook, but it would strike me as odd if there were no general provision in the rulebook under which this could fall – not in the framework of baserunning and fielding, but in the framework of aggressive contact in a non-contact sport. I mean, presumably it’s not OK to punch the 1B in the face after you arrive at first base after a walk, right? Is there any way that the rule that outlaws that kind of conduct could apply here?
Also, I’m curious as to what you think of my interpretation of 7.08(a)(1).
Clearly Victorino
Initiated contact, be it by extending his elbow or whatever you want to call it. But Reyes, much to my horror, did not peel off the play the way we are all taught to in little league. He basically took one slid step to his left and left himself in position to get the obstruction call against him. And just because Delgado still has the ball does not mean he is attempting to tag him, he was 8 feet away from Victorino and his arms are not that long, and he does not possess the closing speed needed. 7.08(a) does not apply here because no tag was being attempted and there was no attempt to field a ball. And 7.08(a)(2) applies to the situation DevonEdwards raised last night (along with several others).
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
that is my problem with your argument
You say Reyes didn’t peel off. I say Reyes got out of the way as much as anybody in baseball history has on a play like that. He doesn’t have to run away from Victorino in horror. He just has to give him a clear path AFTER he throws the ball. If that is obstruction what he did, it should be called five times a game and it isn’t and won’t be. I disagree with your view as to the facts, not the rule.
I responded to this above but here's my point
The phrase “fielding the ball” is interpretive. A player cannot field the ball and then vanish. Part of fielding the ball needs to include the act of getting yourself out of the play and, in my mind, is part of the definition in the “spirit of the rule”. For the umpire to call this obstruction, he needs to be of the mindset that, once the ball is thrown, the player must instantly disappear.
Here’s the situation that could happen if the rule is interpreted in the manner that it was interpreted last night:
I’m in a rundown. 2nd baseman is driving me back to 1st. I run back to first and the 2nd baseman, who is right behind me but knows he can’t catch up to me, tosses it to the 1st baseman so he can make the tag. Instead, I turn around and clock the 2nd baseman in the face.
According to these interpretations of the rules, I’m awarded 2nd.
by Lunkwill Fook on May 8, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
And, watching the video, Jose certainly looks like he was trying to get out of the way. He took two steps and then had Victorino in his face. That explanation doesn’t wash.
by Lunkwill Fook on May 8, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Is this not exactly what happened?
Victorino is looking over his shoulder waiting to see when Reyes releases the ball. As soon as he does, Victorino turns around and clocks him.
exactly right
plus Reyes moves way from Victorino but Victorino seeks him out. Victorino should have been thwon out of the game.
Based on what rule?
Cite it, please.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
Oh, sorry
I guess you responded to it down here. Well, see, I think there’s a problem with your reading of 7.08(a). As soon as you get into the game of deciding how fast a fielder must be and how far away he must be in order to be considered attempting to tag, you are obviously opening the situation up to subjectivity, so if you admit that a fielder close enough and with the needed closing speed could be attempting to tag, then you certainly can no longer claim that there is an ironclad prohibition against the application of 7.08(a) at this point. After Reyes throws the ball to Delgado, if Delgado is running towards the runner with the ball, that has to be considered a tag attempt.
I'm looking ahead to today's game
Let’s put this topic behind us and anticipate game #5 in the winning streak, and the possibility of first place, shall we? Please?
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
we coul dhave done that yesterday
if you hadnt responded with 50 thousand posts.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
by the way
I still think Victorino is an ass and I hate the way he plays the game.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
no worries
nobody here thinks you are defending the Phillies or Victorino. You are entilied to your view. We just disagree thats all.
I disagree
Not to wade too deeply into this topic, but it strikes me that the umpire’s ultimate discretion on this play was whether or not there was “obstruction” to begin with. The MLB rules define “obstruction” as “the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner”. If the runner throws himself at the fielder out of possession, as Vic Torino did with Reyes, the fielder is arguably not “act[ing]” to impede the progress of the runner. Thus, no obstruction and no base awarded. If the fielder fails to move, or moves into the path of the runner, it is clearly obstruction and the runner should be awarded the base. But in a situation where the runner moves himself to create the obstruction, I don’t buy the argument that the umpires are without discretion in this situation to let the play continue.
Also, uh, Vic Torino is a douchelord and can suck so many assholes.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on May 8, 2009 9:31 AM EDT reply actions
yeah, i know MLB umps arent supposed to have the same amount of discretion as soccer umps
and that there might be a “rulebook” right way to call that, but umps dont always follow the letter of the law, so in this case the intent of the rule should trump the letter of the law, and thus the ump blew the call.
no rule book, or codified set of laws period, is going to be perfect, and so judgements must be made. thats why MLB umps get paid the big bucks. if the rulebook was perfect and not subject to interpretation and subjectivity then then you could robots to call the game. here, there is room for interpretation, and had the ump ruled the exact opposite he would be justified, and thats what he should have done.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
exactly
Reyes didn’t impede Vic Torino. That’s why I (umpire) agree with you. I guess I, at least, care for the spirit of the game.
by DevonEdwards on May 8, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
And I don't?
You are so sanctimonious it’s beyond belief.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I'll stay
Out of the argument next time. See you guys later.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
I'm glad I was asleep for that
I think it’s best if we just all agree that Torino is a little bitch
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on May 8, 2009 10:48 AM EDT reply actions
This
I woke up today and saw that this fanpost had ballooned to 200-something posts last night and I figured maybe some Philly folks wandered over to defend Torino; I definitely did not expect what I ended up reading.
'Oh yes, I know all about that duty-of-a-citizen stuff. It doesn't go. There are exceptions to every rule, and this was one of them. When a man risks his liberty to come and root at a ball-game, you've got to hand it to him. He isn't a crook. He's a fan.'
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on May 8, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought
the discussion was both frustrating and interesting. I appreciate what zman brought to the table — I just don’t see why this rule is objective, and all these other ones are inherently subjective. It’s just too literal a reading of the rule and doesn’t account for the fact that umpires betray the letter of the law ALL THE TIME.
That being said — the takeaway for me is Torino’s a massive douchebag and the entire umpiring crew should be shot, and not just because of that play.
zman:umpirers::scalia:SCOTUS
i appreciate would zman added too. i just wish he didnt make such a big deal out of defending his point of view. i get what hes saying, he does not consider the MLB rulebook, or at least the rule that applies into this situation, to be a ‘living’ document. nothing wrong with that per se, but on a message board full of biased mets fans its probably best to state your case and be done with it.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON. WE WANT THE MANSION NOT THE CONDO.
My point:
All rules are up to interpretation. Deciding a rule is not up to interpretation is an interpretation itself. And not all interpretations are correct.
by Lunkwill Fook on May 8, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Alright
After some time to think about this, I feel a bit better. Not so upset at Torino anymore, and understand that the rule is what it is, even if its misguided. My feeling is, at this point, if the rule is to be re-examined, it needs to be under this scope: The Mets executed that play last night as well as possible, and well enough to earn themselves two outs. They were punished for that execution, and in baseball, or any game for that matter, a team/player should never get punished for good execution by the rules. That’s just my feelings about the theory behind the game and the rules, and in this situation, that feeling was contradicted, and therefore, IMO, it needs to be addressed.
The best comparable example in spirit and mechanic to this rule I think is the HBP rule. The HBP rule exists to protect the offensive player (in this case the batter) both from injury and disadvantage, and the penalty for breaking the rule is that he is awarded one base. However, the batter can also take advantage of this rule, allowing himself to get hit, thus earning a base. However, there is another rule in place, that gives the umpire discretion to accuse the batter of “not trying to get out of the way,” and thus not awarding him the base.
In the obstruction rule, much is similar. It is designed to protect the offensive player (in this case the baserunner), both from injury and disadvantage. The penalty for breaking the rule is that he is awarded one base. And much like the HBP rule, the baserunner can clearly take advantage of this rule to try and cheaply earn himself and his team a base. And again, the baserunner can attempt to take advantage of the rule to earn a base, as Torino did last night. Just like the HBP rule, and the caveat that the batter must attempt to get out of the way, in this case, there should be a similar provision in place.
Okay, now that that’s out of my system, winning streaks are awesome! Seriously, this team has been fun to watch for the last week and they’ve been very impressive, especially the SP (finally).
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 11:47 AM EDT reply actions
Totally agree with this
And I still hate Torino.
Yeah he's really an ass
Anyone watch the WBC? Remember that stupid little kick move he pulled? I can’t find a picture or video, but it was even worse. He was standing on second after a double, and the outfielder threw the ball to the infield, just to get the ball back in, for all intents and purposes the play was over. So Victorino non-chalantly stepped to his side, and put his foot directly in the path of the ball, diverting it from its target, and allowing him to hustle in to third base. That didn’t even go against a team I cared about and it infuriated me.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
While agree with the base sentiment
My feelings of bitterness stem from the fact that had it been the other way around, and Jose had thrown the shiver at a “Phightin-the-Good-Phight-Never-Do-Wrong-By-God-I-Have-Heart” Phillie, then the news this morning would of centered around Jose being a dirty and immature player. Instead, since the game ended with a W for the Mets, the pundits are spinning that the Mets “hung on” and the Phillies “come up just short in their hearty efforts to come back”. Barf.
While I think that's possible
I’m not sure its likely. Victorino did do what is the commonly held practice in a rundown, he was just egregious about it. I have a feeling that if Reyes or Wright did the same thing, it wouldn’t have gotten spun that differently. However, if one of them stood on home plate after scoring a run and pointed at the opposing dugout, well that’s another story.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on May 8, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
What else would you expect?
The media is anti-NY, and anti-NY Mets, to be sure.
The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure my indifference to that remark.
This comment section
turned into a train-wreck.
by James Kannengieser on May 8, 2009 6:12 PM EDT reply actions







































