Jerry Manuel Has No Clue
by James Kannengieser on Jun 11, 2009 10:27 PM EDT
86 comments
We spent some time this offseason discussing optimal lineup construction, ultimately realizing that the difference between the best and worst lineups is only a few runs per season. I don't expect a major league manager like Jerry Manuel to construct a lineup based on "The Book", but the fact that David Wright continues to bat 5th is completely outrageous. This is a player who has been the Mets' best or second best hitter since 2004 (his rookie season). He's currently leading the National League in batting average and on-base percentage. Why would any sane individual not try to maximize the plate appearances for this beast of a hitter? Here are the total plate appearances per spot in the order for Mets hitters last season:
| Spot | PA |
|---|---|
| 1 | 783 |
| 2 | 762 |
| 3 | 746 |
| 4 | 732 |
| 5 | 711 |
Let me reiterate: Wright leads the league in on-base percentage and is batting in a lineup spot that will end up with ~50 fewer plate appearances than the 2 spot over the course of a season. I don't want to hear nonsense about how Wright has better numbers in the 5 spot, or how he changes his approach when batting in other places in the order. Bat him 3rd, 2nd, or heck even 1st. Just not 5th. Between lineup construction, bullpen management, and the non-stop bunting, Manuel is costing this team runs and therefore wins. For a group that has missed the playoffs by a game or 2 each of the last 2 seasons, this is a large issue. Unfortunately, there is only a slim chance it will rectified.
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You but that up fast.
I don’t expect Jerry to understand all that, so batting your best player fourth in front of an old player whoosh career is essentially over would be a nice start though.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jun 11, 2009 10:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Its really just pitiful at this point
He’s so bad with tactical decision making. I’m trying to think up a clever analogy to describe bit, but at this point, I’ve just got nuthin.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jun 11, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I still think La Russa is worse...
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 11, 2009 10:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LaRussa is way better
at falling asleep when stopped at a traffic light.
by Eric Simon on Jun 11, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 11, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they would stop Jerry at a light
and tell him his BAC was above the legal limit, he would go to court and say he doesn’t care about statistical numbers and that his gut told him he’s wasn’t drunk.
by Mount17 on Jun 11, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ouch, you went there.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry bunts with no outs and his six hitter up in the seventh.
He bunts in the first inning with no outs.
And that was just the past two days
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jun 11, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
La Russa has carried 13 relievers the entire season
At one point, the 13th man didn’t pitch for over 2 weeks. Meanwhile, our bench, especially right handed hitting has been awful and cost us wins on multiple occasions.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 11, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stokes went two weeks without pitching
we traded away our best RH power bat for a crappy AAA pitcher and sent along 1.4 million to be nice.
by twon8 on Jun 11, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whats the deal with Rasmus?
Why is there no set lineup for the Cards? Must drive the players nuts inside.
by cuseindahuse on Jun 11, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
prolly
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 12, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like there's a set lineup for the Mets, pshaw.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are set lineups
They’re just bad ones. Alex Cora’s a leadoff hitter vs RHP. He and Luis seem to be platooning in the #1 and #2 lineup spots. Beltran’s #3, and Sheff, a career cleanup hitter, must continue to bat cleanup for the same reason JJ Putz couldn’t pitch before the 8th inning. David Wright’s got the fifth spot locked down, and there’s just no telling who’s going to be playing the other three positions, so screw it. .
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jun 12, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post.
Well, something’s gotta give at this point. Sheffield looks worn out. Tatis was a nice story last year, but this year not so much. With Delgado out, Wright and Beltran have no protection and outside of those two, there’s no HR threats in this lineup. In all fairness, Jerry is a bit hamstrung from that perspective; however, his constant “go by the book” philosophy is a non-starter. Frustrating…
by northernvatiger on Jun 11, 2009 10:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tatis actually hits righties better than lefties,
but jerry is only using him in a platoon role; plus tatis has been unlucky on babip, and should see an improvement.
by twon8 on Jun 11, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie is the better Manuel
Bring back Art Howe. Art was a class act. He knew he was getting axed however he was still professional about it.
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jun 11, 2009 10:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What are you still doing here?
I thought you were a Yankee fan?
by Eric Simon on Jun 11, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I made that post
Because some childish user told me to go to the Yankee blog and I did because I know he would see it.
Id rather be in jail than listen to Michael Kay.
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jun 11, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Art Howe? Really?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you really should respond to my comment i left to your comment on the yankee page
It will make your day
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jun 12, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You shouldn't make fun of obviously morbidly obese children such as myself.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Optimal lineup construction...
Omar better get another bat in here soon. Easier said than done, I know. Dunn or Ibanez are not here because…? They were free agents (I’m preaching to the choir).
by northernvatiger on Jun 11, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
this has driven me crazy too
its such a simple concept. get your best hitters the most plate appearances. how hard is that. it makes me want to go on an all caps rant.
All of the mets fans hope that we will not see the bad news mets ever again.
by kendynamo on Jun 11, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Original draft of this post was all caps and size 48 font
But I reconsidered for the good of eyesight.
by James Kannengieser on Jun 11, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
O/T
but MetsBlog is reporting that Maine is on the DL for shoulder pain.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 11, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So Niese?
We have the worst combination of GM, Manager and medical staff
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jun 11, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ain't that the truth, but you left out ...
The Ownership.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had it originally but cut the wilpons slack cause they dish out the money.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jun 11, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha they're probably promote Figueroa
Because Niese has a (state the inflated number) ERA even though Figgy couldn’t even dream of getting a good left handed hitter out.
by All Shook Down on Jun 11, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is this on Metsblog that Nieve might be an option?
If that’s the case…yikes…
just call up Figgy!
by metsman07 on Jun 12, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To clarify myself:
“fatigue and weakness”
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 11, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
I know you’re not serious but, hey, here’s Lance’s line for Buffalo tonight:
4.1 IP, 3 H, 4 R, 3 ER, 6 BB, 2 K. 85 pitches – 44 balls, 41 strikes.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 11, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and sadly
the fact that he pitched today prevents him from throwing this weekend. So sad he won’t be able to contribute to the big club this weekend.
by Zwill on Jun 11, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only 3 earned runs
not bad :)
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 11, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Notice the unearned run in there
But six walks is putrid and can’t be blame on Javier Valentin playing SS or whatever crazy configuration they’ve got going.
by All Shook Down on Jun 11, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take that over an above average hitting right handed catcher with power anyday.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what would be optimal line-up?
with reyes etc. out, going with what you have
wright 4th, or move him up even more. Cora, wright, beltran sheff (I mean, that does get him many more at bats than just 3rd to 4th). but I’d take 4th.
by wobatus on Jun 11, 2009 10:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why not bat Wright second?
So it’s Luis, Wright, Beltran, Sheff, Murph/Tatis, Church, catcher, Cora
Would it be a bad thing to have Cora at the bottom of the lineup? He wastes a lot of pitches.
by metsman07 on Jun 12, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd probably
go Luis, Cora, Wright, Beltran, Sheff, Church/Tatis, Murphy/Tatis/F-Mart, catcher
Gets wright higher in the order but also some RBI chances.
by mets81 on Jun 12, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should pull a Mariners
They’re like us right now, they only have 2 competent hitters in Ichiro and Branyan and they’re batting 1-2 They have gone well since Wakamatsu made that move.
Dunno just try something different! haha
by Clemenx00 on Jun 11, 2009 10:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, no, you're absolutely correct.
That’s what we SHOULD do. Ideally, we’d be batting some combination of Wright and Beltran 1st and 2nd.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can understand not batting him first or second
Jerrys head would probably explode at the thought. But why leave him 5th? I mean damn at least Willie could fill out a line up card and end up with something that made sense. I mean is there any logical reason not to have Beltran, Wright, Sheff (3rd, 4th, 5th) or if Jerry is really feeling adventurous, Beltran 2nd, Wright 3rd and Sheffield 5th?
by Gina on Jun 11, 2009 10:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hated Willie
“My guys”, the bullying of younger players, “I go with my gut”, Miguel Cairo every day because he’s steady and my guy, etc.
But Jerry is worse somehow.
by All Shook Down on Jun 11, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I can’t even listen to Manuel anymore. He never make any sense. He just goes along with whatever Lame Hagen or Eddie C asks him. I’d take Willie back in a heartbeat. The organization seriously embarrassed itself for the way they handled his firing.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I miss Bobby V
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jun 11, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So do I, but ...
Remember all the talk before he was fired about how he lost the locker room to Leiter and Franco and … I forget the other player … PIazza? It was probably time for Bobby to go anyhow. But, I agree, I wouldn’t mind him either. Somebody who’s sharp, knows the game, and gets a little fired up because this team doesn’t have that at all right now.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Petition Time
they try it in japan for Bobby:
by wobatus on Jun 12, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has a manager ever been fired and then brought back?
by TheBigStapler on Jun 12, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Martin, for one.
Over and over and over . . .
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 12, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lotsa Yankee managers
Michael, Houk, Howser, Lemon, Berra. Like the seinfeld bit with Steinbrenner listing all the managers he has fired:
“Bill Virdon, Billy Martin, Dick Howser, Bob lemon, Billy martin, Gene Michael, Billy Martin, Dallas Green, Yogi Berra, Billy Martin, Stump Merrill….wait, you didn’t hear that from me” (Merrill was still the manager, i think).
by wobatus on Jun 12, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a great scene
But I think the last one was Buck Showalter
by James Kannengieser on Jun 12, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
it was. Showalter was even in an episode. The cotton uniform one.
I love the ones where trades are discussed. George figures out how to get griffey and Bonds. or Kramer complains about the yankees dealing Mgriff, Mcgee, Drabek, etc. or especially, George’s dad complaining about trading Buhner, even thouigh his son is ostensibly dead “Why did you trade jay Buhner. The kid hits home runs, he has a rocket for an arm.” Steinbrenner: “My scouts kept telling me Ken Phelps, Ken Phelps.”
Lotta baseball in that show. I’m keith hernandez, and i have a sectional sofa.
by wobatus on Jun 12, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You disagree with what?
I said Jerry is worse. I did not advocate the return of Willie either.
by All Shook Down on Jun 11, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right. My bad.
I read a question mark into your final sentence when there wasn’t any. I should probably go to bed. : )
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Church
I know a lot of you guys are down on him, but he has been jerked around badly by Mets management. And it started right from the beginning of spring training. Omar and Jerry made a seriously stupid mistake by anointing Daniel Murphy to superstar status based on just last year AND embarrassing Church by, very publicly, demoted him to platoon status EVEN THOUGH (1) he was the best (ok, maybe second best) OF on the team; (2) he was the best hitterplayer on the team before he seasoned (and career?) was ruined by the team’s mishandling of his concussions; (3) he came back this year and played extremely well in ST. Now Jerry is still fucking with him. Church should be starting every game in RF and batting 6th or 5th – and, in any even, always ahead of Daniel Murphy.
That said, Omar has to make a move for a solid bat in LF. We cannot continue with this line-up as is for the rest of the season.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Church. He's had a rough time of it.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing is
Church is exactly the kind of player that Jerry claims to love, except he hates him for some reason. Church works the count, has power and some patience, plays good defense, etc.
by mets81 on Jun 12, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They both suck and cost their team wins with stupid managerial decisions
Giving away outs and poor relief pitching decisions are killing me and the Mets record
by twon8 on Jun 11, 2009 11:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chollie Manuel
People in Philly hate/love him too. Yankee fans second guessed and dogged Torre quite a bit before he was unceremoniously shown the door. Most ML managers get dogged. But our Manuel is just horrible.
Hire Wally Backman
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The 1986 Team
Look at the personalities we had on that team: Backman, Dykstra, Hernandez, Carter, Kevin Mitchell, Ray Knight, etc. We have NONE of that on this team. NONE.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They had good players, this team has good players.
They had a good manager.
by twon8 on Jun 11, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take Davey back in a heart beat!
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jun 11, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anddddddddddd you lost me.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry will remain as manager at least through the season.
Jerry is going nowhere (He’s a real nowhere man). He and Omar have new contracts and the Wilpons will not pay them to sit at home or take minimal jobs with another team. Anyway Omar seems to be Fred Wilpons’ Svengali.
by gategem on Jun 11, 2009 11:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sacrifice update
The Mets have 38 sacrifices this season. They only trail the Cincinnati Reds by three.
Yes, those same Cincinnati Reds managed by Dusty Baker — the same manager who asked Adam Dunn to bunt.
by All Shook Down on Jun 11, 2009 11:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget about Santana ignoring the sign
If your pitcher is ignoring your bunt sign, you have to think that Jerry has already called for more bunts than the Reds, but the players are ignoring him…
by djg2111 on Jun 12, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This, to me, is Manuel's biggest sin
Wright is getting on base at a better pace than anyone in the National League, but he’s batting 5th and has a black hole behind him. He’s also hitting for so little power that it’s not like you really need him in an “RBI” spot anyway. Move him up to 2nd, have Beltran 3rd, and Sheff 4th, and I guarantee you’d see an uptick in runs scored.
by cjmulrain on Jun 12, 2009 12:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you could possibly put this ahead of the bunting shenanigans, though.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jun 12, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bunting needs to stop.
And is it just me or does Jerry ALWAYS leave relievers in for 1 too many batters? (complete hindsight, I know)
by metsman07 on Jun 12, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing new, everything old.
Just pure incompetence…I’ve stopped worrying about the lineup because I know I am going to look at it everyday and wonder how this man became a Major League Manager.
I know that he is limited with our injuries, but how he sees fit to bat our best hitter 5th is beyond me. If you want Wright protecting Sheff, bat Sheff 2nd for Christ’s Sake. He isn’t hitting but his OBP fits if you want to continue to play him. Hit Wright 3rd and Voltron 4th.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jun 12, 2009 2:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Remember the final game of 2008?
Jerry’s lineup was:
1. Reyes
2. Beltran
3. Wright
4. Delgado
5.-8. Qui gives a shit
That was a do-or-die game, and Jerry realized maybe it’s a good idea to put the best hitters closer to the top of the order. So why isn’t that type of lineup good enough for every game? I’ve done the same as you, tried my best to not worry about the lineup everyday. But Wright 5th every game is just mind-boggling.
by James Kannengieser on Jun 12, 2009 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"a slim chance it will rectified"
a slim NO chance it will rectified.
by Reg Dunlop on Jun 12, 2009 7:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Enough with the Bunting
I have to agree on that point, I’m sick of the bunting with no outs and a guy on second. Heck even with a guy on first. With a guy on 2nd, hit it to the right side and maybe you get a hit. Why are we giving Jamie Moyer free outs? He’s got a 6+ ERA! With a guy on first, try a hit and run or something. This bunting from Castillo, Cora and even Murphy sometimes is ridiculous. You’ll never get a big inning playing for 1 measly run.
by David G on Jun 12, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not sure it makes that much of a difference
The two players most frequently batting 2nd are Danny Murphy (182 PA, .324 OBP) and Luis Castillo (207 PA, .373 OBP); together that’s about a .350 OBP. Over the 50 fewer plate appearances that Wright is getting, that comes out to around 17 or 18 fewer times on base. Does that really make that much of a difference?
by gabefarkas on Jun 13, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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