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Some Possible Trade Targets Pt. 3

Pictured left to right: THE CONDO, THE MANSION

Many of you probably read this post, which bojudd left on the Applesauce cutting floor. I stopped reading it after "Penny is too much of an injury risk, despite pitching well for the Red Sox"*, but it provides a good working list for possible pitching targets. Click here and here to catch up on the Nationals I want so far.

* 5.63 ERA? 1.60 WHIP?? ......but.....he's......5......and......1....... mmm ellipses....

First off, watching Javier Vazquez pitch well for the Braves this season has been painful. Vazquez shares a skill-set very similar to Jake Peavy's, except unlike Peavy, he pitched many of his best years in the American League, in a tiny ballpark. Freed from the tyranny of the Cell, he has, as many of us expected, posted great numbers: 86 strikeouts and 16 walks in 70.1 IP, good for a 2.55 FIP. Considered a salary dump by the White Sox, Vazquez has almost earned back his entire contract already, with his 2.4 WAR equaling $11 Million dollars in value (also second in the NL behind Lincecum)*. Cerrone's right about this: the Braves would never trade him to the Mets in a pennant race. It would also require a Jake Peavy-worthy package, not the Luis Castillo+minimal salary relief the Mets offered the White Sox for him this summer.

*Yes I know Johan is better, that's why tRA is better than FIP. Go search 'Javier Vazquez FIP' on BtB.

While the missed opportunity on Vazquez would temper my excitement, one could make a reasonable argument for the Mets pursuing Jake Peavy.  He'll likely be a 4 win pitcher from now to the end of the season, and would definitely be big upgrade over whoever the Mets use in the five-spot, be it Livan or Redding. Niese suffered some legitimately bad outings in AAA lately, and while I still believe in freeing Jon Niese, there's likely no chance the organization shares my feelings now. Maine and Pelfrey look better, but Perez is still vacationing on the moon and Livan could self-destruct any day now. The stability of the rotation could be a problem again down the stretch, and no other pitcher on that list brings both dependability and quality like Peavy. Still, for the very reason that Pelfrey and Maine look better, trading for Peavy would probably be overkill. Eric linked to this article, and I don't think trading Martinez for Peavy needs to happen now or ever. His contract would also eventually become a burden , even if he pitches well.

Before losing his control this year, Jonathan Sanchez showed tons of promise as a pitcher. He's still young enough to right himself and would be a nice pick-up if he could be had for anything less than Martinez, Niese, or Holt. Trading Marte and some other fringe prospect for Sanchez might be a good gamble, and even when he's bad, Sanchez would likely be no worse than last year's Oliver Perez. He's not a pitcher who comes in and stabilizes the rotation, but he provides depth and upside, too things that would not hurt. Sabean's also not the best  a very good GM, so there's a legitimate chance he can be stolen (a la Javier Vazquez, Braves).

Erik Bedard, like Russ Branyan, is a free agent at the end of the year and a player the Mariners are likely motivated to sell high on. His injury history may prevent type-A free agent status, making the urgency to trade even greater. When healthy, he's a dominate pitcher, as good as Peavy. His skills, high K's with some homer issues, would be well suited for a move to the NL and Citi Field. He likely wouldn't require a Peavy-like package, so while there's a considerable injury risk, it's a risk the Mets should look into.

Jason Marquis and Jarrod Washburn, despite track records of being terrible, are having surprisingly good years. While their ERA's are artificially lowered by good defense, both pitchers have managed to stay above average (in the green, as it were). Buying high on too historically terrible pitchers, however, can only end badly. Even if either keeps up his pace, it's doubtful either pitcher would be worth the ZOMG 3 ERA package Minaya would likely give.

Roy Oswalt is tempting because of his "ace" track-record and probable low(ish)-cost, but there are many red flags. His steady decline in strikeouts has been well documented, but this season, for the first time ever, he's pitched genuinly poorly. He has given up way more homers than before, which often indicates bad luck, but the difference actually lies in a traditionally very good groundball pitcher only getting 39.6 % GB. Granted Citi would help with his new flyball tendencies, but a flyball Roy Oswalt is not a pitcher you want to be paying 16 Million a year until 2011.

There, of course, are a million other starting pitchers on crappy teams out there, so if you want to discuss someone not on the MLBTR list, I'll gladly indulge below. In general, the Mets need to make some move, whether it be an infielder, outfielder, or pitcher. They should probably also be the first team to move, as the lineup they've been fielding lately can't sustain a playoff run. That may sound dangerous, but as much as we criticize the front office, give Minaya credit where it's due: he's made some decent decision calculus on the blockbuster trade front. But they said that about Bavasi's first few years too.

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He's not a trade target

and for that reason among others, Ben Sheets is an attractive option.

by Zwill on Jun 2, 2009 10:14 AM EDT reply actions  

I say

free Jon Niese first. Give him a few starts and then look for options.

I will not allow the denigration of the life essence

by GenJackRipper on Jun 2, 2009 11:38 AM EDT reply actions  

It's not like Tim Redding represents

an insurmountable opportunity cost

I will not allow the denigration of the life essence

by GenJackRipper on Jun 2, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions  

for bedard

how about endy, carp, vargas….oh wait. :)

by wobatus on Jun 2, 2009 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Ha

That actually might have been almost worth it if we didn’t need Carp more than Bedard. And to note, Marte jumped 2 levels this year from the GCL to A-ball. He’s in no way a fringe guy.

I will not allow the denigration of the life essence

by GenJackRipper on Jun 2, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

marte

picked it up somewhat. Long way away but I can wait.

I see Niese still has the nice k/9 and k/bb, and gb rate, you touted back in mid-May. But he has been shelled in 3 straight starts since then, getting ripped last night. Is the Buffalo d awful and the stadium tiny?

At least last night 6-1 k/bb, but his numbers weren’t great in the last 2. 6 er, 5 and 7 his last 3. What’s his tRA now?

by wobatus on Jun 2, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Everything in terms of peripherals for Niese is great except hits

His K%, BB%, K/BB, GB%, FB%, LD%, and GB/FB are excellent. It’s just that A LOT of those ground balls and fly balls are dropping in for hits. (I haven’t checked HR/FB, but that’s also luck.)
The problem is Omar might not understand what all of this means and dump him for a bag of balls, which would be stupid.

I will not allow the denigration of the life essence

by GenJackRipper on Jun 2, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oswalt was good last night

And for Peavy to me it would depend ENTIRELY on the cost in prospects. With the way his contract escalates I’m not sure it would be worth it to give up anything very valuable.

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Anything?

Anyone. Sheesh I feel like I’m talking about prospects like they’re cattle.

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

mooooo

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jun 2, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also IMO

I love Sanchez but I also worry that he’s going to be Perez the sequel. And I would hope the front office would exhaust all efforts to get a better player before using resources on guys like Washburn or Marquis, just because our resources are so very very limited, and I feel like I wouldn’t like the packages we’d give up for them, since we lack a lot of low risk prospects we’d likely end up giving up high risk high reward guys, like a Scott Moviel or Kyle Allen/Scott Shaw types and I don’t like the idea of giving them up.

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Marquis

What sucks is that we probably could have acquired Marquis for Heilman, straight-up (we probs would have had to eat Heilman’s contract) this off-season.

by T Pac on Jun 2, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions  

If Omar's looking to acquire a starter

I think a guy like Chris Young would be an interesting fit.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

For me he's another guy who would depend entirely on the cost in prospects

Cause I don’t think he’s worth giving up anyone of value for, since I’m not sure he’ll be that much better than what we might be able to get from Niese. And he also has a major problem with base stealing.

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Young had consistantly put up a sub-4 era with decent peripherals.

Niese is a nice prospect, but to expect that from him isn’t realistic. I don’t think expecting him to be better than Tim Redding is a stretch. Expecting Niese to step in and put up a sub 5 era is probably expecting too much out of him.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, I don't know...

Niese is better than Livan, and Livan’s been pretty good…although I don’t expect THAT to last, haha.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 2, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has the ABILITY to be better than Livan

He’s yet to prove it at the ML level. His results are pretty consistant with what you’d expect from a 22 year old being rushed to the majors. He’s still only pitched 15 games in his AAA career, and has put up decent, but not great, peripherals. I’d really like to see Niese given more time at AAA.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree.

At least until Livan gets cold…though I would definitely support replacing Redding with Figueroa at this point.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 2, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd replace Redding with just about anyone...

He’s awful. I can deal with Livan as the #5, espescially with Ollie having the ability to slot in at #4. I’d really like to see the Mets attempt to add a decent middle of the rotation starter though, so we’re not relying on Ollie heavily. I really think spending the season at AAA will be very good for Niese in the long run.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, Livan kinda sucks.

He probably won’t last the year being effective. He has a history of that. And I don’t trust Ollie as far as I can throw him.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 2, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trust Ollie or not, we're probably stuck with him for the next three years.

I’d rather see Ollie trotting out every 5th day than Livan.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Optimally, that will happen soon.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 2, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

He also plays in petco, which probably helps his era a ton

I don’t mean Niese will be better than him this year immediately just that I think he could that next year or near the end of this year and considering that with Young’s age theres not really any upside there, if anything he’ll likely be on a downturn I don’t think he’s worth getting up anything valuable.

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Playing in Petco would be a big deal if he was moving to the other side of town...

Moving from Petco to Citifield probably won’t hurt all that much. The main reason I mentioned him is that he probably won’t cost way too much. He’s got a track record much better than that of Washburn or Marquis, and SD seems to have the most motivation to sell of any team in the majors.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's peripherals are no longer really decent.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jun 2, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

You must have quite the definition of decent.

They’re probably on a whole slightly better than John Maine.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

What peripherals are you talking about?

And my point was more that if a pitcher’s numbers are good because of his park then even if you have a similar park that doesn’t mean you should give up someone valuable for him. It would make more sense to look for someone who’s numbers are worse because of their park, Javier Vazquez was a perfect example of this, and get them for way less than their worth anyway.

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHIP, K/9, BB/9, AO/GO...alll right in line with Maine.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

When did Maine become the standard for good peripherals?

Maine’s sucked much of this season, that’s no secret.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jun 2, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's had 8 starts with 3 runs or less

1 with 4, 1 at 5, and 1 at 6. I’d hardly call that sucking most of the season.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's had 11 starts...the results are all in the post above

And his peripherals aren’t bad by any stretch

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

...what?

His bb/9 and k/bb aren’t bad? What exactly is your definition of bad?

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Out of 75 starting nl pitchers with 30+ innings

Maine is 65th in bb/9 and 63rd in k/bb and 40th in k/9. I think that’s pretty bad.

by Gina on Jun 2, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea

and citing runs is the same as citing ERA. It’s prone to all the same biases. The point of citing peripherals is too avoid that stuff.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jun 2, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Young

Recall that he took a vicious line drive off the face last year. I think he suffered somewhat from that last year and may still to some degree now.

His carer fip is 4.12, better than what the Mets are throwing out there and better than Maine’s career numbers. And an 8 k/9. Yes, he has been worse this year to a degree, but if we are going to say don’t look at era, look at peripherals, shouldn’t we also say don’t over-emphasize a small sample size?

Further, apparently, citifield will be about as good a home park as petco for flyball strikeout pitcher? Finally, a 2006-2008 away e.r.a of 3.87 and nearly 8k per 9, 2/1 k-bb and .203 batting average against (and apologies for those archaic stats, but I think over time they tend to have some relevance) doesn’t suggest a complete petco creation.

Young isn’t great, but he is certainly a LOT better than Hernandez and Redding, maybe Maine and Pelfrey too. And, despite his great peripherals and 8+ era in Buffalo, maybe Niese too. Vazquez career fip is 3.89. And he is on this year. He is better, sure. But if you can’t get him Young is a poor man’s simulacrum. Worse control.

by wobatus on Jun 3, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Vazquez was also in Ozzie's doghouse

He told the chicago media before one of his starts last september that he’d rather have his kid’s pitching that ballgame. That was during the Pre-game. Vazquez was a good deal for Atlanta, but Kenny Williams was stuck in a position where he had to get rid of him. And once again, I mention Young because he really shouldn’t cost too much to acquire.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone on another thread mentioned that Fausto Carmona might be in play.

If so, I think he’d be great. Young pitcher with great stuff pitching in the AL who has had a rough go of it the past year and a half. His value has to be down from it’s 2007 peak and we could probably put together a decent package for him without completely harming our core of prospects (unlike dealing for Peavy, Bedard, et al).

I don’t really believe it but…http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/fausto_carmona/index.html

If they are sick of him, I think he’d be an excellent project if the price was decent.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.

by AnthonyR on Jun 2, 2009 5:37 PM EDT reply actions  

He'd be interesting

Shapiro and Minaya seem to work well together.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Though I know this is an extenuating circumstance, with the Expos in fear of being disbanded, I felt it was important to bring this up.

To the Indians: Lee Stevens, Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore
To the Expos: Bartolo Colon.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 2, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was a really bad trade...

But the expos would have lost all those guys if they were disbanded anyway. I really don’t think you can hold that one against Omar.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I was in college, I used to go to expos games all the time

I also got to see quite a few Bisons and Red Wings games when I went home for the summer. The minor league crowds were always better than the crowds at olympic stadium.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

That thought always pops in to my head when we deal with Cleveland,

but I think it was more due to the extenuating circumstances than anything, but you never know. And hey, we just got Wilson Valdez from them for a song. He’s already paid more dividends than his cost.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.

by AnthonyR on Jun 2, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

that trade was a fluke

I mean, honestly, has there ever been a trade in MLB history in which 3 prospects switched teams and none of them busted? When you add the fact that the Expos were supposed to be contracted and were actually not terrible that season up to that point, plus the fact that Colon was actually pretty good for the remainder of the season and still had 3 more good years in him, it all seems to me that that’s a way more defensible trade than the one our interim GM made involving “not-Carlos” Zambrano.

by cjmulrain on Jun 3, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, a thought just came into my mind.

WHY did we choose the Expos GM as our GM? The Expos sucked.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 2, 2009 10:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Because the better GM's weren't unemployed...

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 2, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because he found Jose Reyes.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jun 2, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

b/c they got exponentially better

when he took over, and b/c the Mets got exponentially worse when he left the front office and left Steve “I hate really good players” Phillips to his own devices.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again – I think Omar is a wonderful evaluator of talent who’s not a good GM. He’s an example of the Peter Principle in action.

by cjmulrain on Jun 3, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 3, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

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