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When Fernando Met Wilmer

Entering the 2009 season, the consensus top two prospects in the Mets system were Fernando Martinez and Wilmer Flores.  There was some disagreement about specific ranking, but they were considered in a class of their own amongst minor leaguers employed by the New York Mets.  Nearly three months later, it looks like there's a good chance that neither one of these two vunderkinds will retain said ranking.  The recent injury to Carlos Beltran may earn Martinez a chance to shed his rookie status, and the aggressive promotion of Flores to the South Atlantic League for his age 17 season has been something of a statistical hiccup for the young star. 

Organizational rankings aside, we're now at a good point in time to run some analysis on Flores using his older counterpart as model of comparison, and maybe even sneak some in on Martinez as well.  Much like Flores, Martinez spent his age 17 season in the South Atlantic League, though Flores had a head start after a successful age 16 season in the Appalachian league.  There are some very interesting similarities and differences in their results, but before we go too far in depth, lets take a look at some of the data:

Star-divide

                                                     South Atlantic League Statistics
    PA    H  
 2B 
 3B 
 HR 
  AVG  
  OBP 
  SLG  
  ISO  
 SO 
 BB   BABIP
Flores  59 
  247 
 62  11   1   2   .273   .316   .357  .084
  32  12   .309
Martinez  45 
  211  64  14   2   5   .333   .389   .505  .172   36  15   .380

 

Clearly, Fernando was the more successful of the two in during his tour of the South Atlantic League (at least thus far).  In the last four columns of this table lies the real significance though.  The Strikeout and Walk rates are nearly identical. Fernando managed to dunk more hits in, but he wasn't making more contact, and he wasn't walking more either.  What he was doing was hitting for quite a bit more power.  So for the next step, lets take a look a their batted ball profiles to see if we can garner any additional insight:

            South Atlantic League Statistics

  GB%    LD%     FB%   HR/FB  
Flores  44.0% 
  9.5%   46.5%    2.2%
Martinez  56.8%  16.2%    27.0%    12.8%

 

There's some interesting stuff here.  The first thing that jumps out is Fernando's HR/FB, which for a 17 year old is pretty awesome.  At the same time though, look at how much of a groundball-dominant hitter he was.  Flores has shown only a fraction of the raw power Fernando showed in the Sally League and his struggle to hit line drives helps explain the BABIP separation.  But his swing is also clearly more geared towards loft, as he hits balls in the air at a much higher clip. 

This raises a number of interesting questions:  Could this be a good indication for his future?  Its hardly a major concern that his power is down for such a youngster, so what about if/when it comes?  Can we expect him to continue to put a higher rate of balls in the air?  If so, how does that portend for his Home Run totals down the line?  Lets fill in these stat groupings for the rest of these players careers (minus Fernando's rehab stints) to see of we can attempt a bit of fortune telling (don't forget, Wilmer had about a year's head start on Fernando age-wise):

 

                                                                          Wilmer Flores Career Statistics
  G     PA 
  H    2B  3B
 HR 
AVG OBP
SLG
ISO SO
BB  BABIP   GB%   LD%  FB% HR/FB
2008 (3 levels)*
 68
 302  86  13   4   8 .307 .347 .468 .161 37 13   .333 32.5%
17.3% 50.2% 6.8%
2009 (SAL)  59
 247  62  11   1   2 .273
.316
.357 .084 32 12   .309 44.0% 9.5% 46.5% 2.2%

*(APP, NYPL, SAL)

 

                                                                          Fernando Martinez Career Statistics
 G  PA   H    2B  3B
 HR 
AVG OBP
SLG
ISO SO
BB  BABIP   GB%   LD%  FB% HR/FB
2006 (3 levels)*
 76
 345  88  18   4  10 .276 .336 .457 .181  61  21   .333 52.2%
14.7% 33.1% 12.3%
2007 (EL)  60
 259  64  11   1   4 .271
.336
.377 .108  51  20   .326 61.5%  9.9% 28.0%  7.8%
2008 (EL)
 86
 385 101  19   4   8 .287 .340 .432 .145  73  27   .343 48.9%
18.1% 33.0%  8.9%
2009 (IL)  44
 186  50  16   2   8 .291
.339
.547 .256  31 11   .316 48.6% 18.3% 33.1% 17.4%

*(GCL, SAL, FSL)

There are some notable correlations and potential correlations here.  First of all, Fernando's tendency to hit the ball on the ground has followed him through his ascent through the farm system.  He's generally had about a 3:2 ratio of grounders to flyballs.  This has masked his typically impressive HR/FB, which has completely exploded this year.  Wilmer has been just the opposite.  Including his time in the Appalachian league, you can basically flip that ratio for him, he hits about 3:2 more flyballs than groundballs.  So even if Wilmer never develops the same level of raw power that Fernando does, if he can/when he does eventually find a bit more, he might be able to yield similar results, simply by virtue of the fact that he has an easier time putting the ball in the air. 

The silver lining of Wilmer's "struggles" this year in the South Atlantic League is that it might convince the Mets not to rush him straight to the Eastern League next year, as they did with Fernando.  Still, even if they keep him in the Florida State League for 2010 I wouldn't expect to see him start hitting for power quite yet, especially in a pitcher friendly environment like that.  In fact, there's a good chance that a perceived lack of power is going to hurt Flores's prospect grades even more in the upcoming years than it has already.  But fret not, this should be completely expected, and even if such a prediction comes true, there's still a great chance he's going to have it explode in the upper levels much the way Fernando's has this year.  A 17 year old lacking power is hardly a major concern, and Fernando's upper-level looking HR/FB in the SAL is more the exception than the rule. Instead, I implore you to keep the faith, this kid still has special written all over him, but its going to take some time to extract said special.

Edit:  For the sake of putting some more tangible projection in this, here's what we might expect if/when Wilmer's HR/FB spikes.  This season, Wilmer's 46.5% FB% is the product of 91 flyballs through his 247 PAs (remember FB% is a percentage of Balls in Play, not PAs).  So we can assume in a 600 PA season that contained a similar contact rate and FB%, that would be approximately 220 flyballs.  If his HR/FB were to spike up to 10%, that'd be 22 HR power.  At 15%, it would be 33 HR power.  Assuming he develops as expected, this seems like a fair range to put on his power ceiling.  But keep in mind, an excersize like this is like trying to use a telescope to observe traffic patterns a few miles down the road.

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This is great stuff

and begs for a comparison between those two and some other well-known prospects who were pushed at a young age.

by jasondg on Jun 23, 2009 1:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

agreed

Miguel Cabrera would probably be an interesting guy to look at – I know when looking at Fernando’s minor league career up to this season he had a similar path as Cabrera did.

by cjmulrain on Jun 23, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Know any sources for minor league batted ball info before the last few years? Minorleaguesplits doesn’t really go very far back. Either way, it should play well for Wilmer. Miggy didn’t reach Full Season ball until he was 18, and through that point in his career had just six total homers in ~700 PAs, so I can’t imagine his HR/FB was very impressive.

I’d love to know what his tendencies as a hitter were. In his major league career, he’s been a bit more of a groundball guy, though not to the extreme F! has been thus far. But Miggy never had to deal with so much more advanced talent the way F! has had to either, so its really tough to read. Miggy also both struck out and walked at a higher rate than F! or Wilmer, but again, given the rush job for the two Mets guys, its hard to read anything too deeply into it. Miggy was moved fast too, but not this fast. Remember, F! was starting his Double-A tour by the time he was 18, Miggy was just getting his first crack at a full season league.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jun 24, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

Good formating with the charts. I noticed Flores FB% as well and it worries me slightly that his LD% is so low to go with the high FB%, though that could be noise. Like you said, if Flores can develop some power than his FB% becomes a real asset, if he doesn’t his BABIP will constantly be below average, but these past couple of weeks he has been playing much better so I’m very hopeful.

by Sokojoe on Jun 23, 2009 10:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: power

He’s 17 — who really hits for any power at that age? Miggy Cabrera, for example, didn’t slug at all really until he hit AA as a 20 year old.

It’s just too early to tell.

by jasondg on Jun 23, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah of course

I didn’t mean to doubt him, I mean look at Fernando who “lost” his power the previous two seasons. I just pointing out that developing power is not a given. Kind of like how Guerra was supposed to grow into his fastball or Sean Burroughs was supposed to grow out of singles.

by Sokojoe on Jun 23, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

That’s for sure. It’s just too early to tell. But if he does develop power and maintains the FB% — wow.

by jasondg on Jun 23, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Jerry Manuel...stop being....stupid...

by MetsGeek on Jun 23, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

Yeah, I’m trying not to stay too concerned about the LD%, I’m still figuring out how to analyzed batted ball profiles properly, as I think a lot in the baseball community are, but from what I understand, LD% just doesn’t correlated as well as FB or GB%. There always seems to be a lot more year to year variance in LD%, especially for pitchers, but for hitters as well, while GB% and FB% seem to have more of a direct year to year correlation and tend to be more instructive and predictive.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jun 23, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The FB%

would bother me a little more if he was striking out more. His SO percentage per the graphs above has him at 13% which really isnt that great/bad (at the same time). Actually its even more impressive when you consider his age to the level of compeition as well as his development curve.

However the problem for guys like F!/Wilmer/Miggy is the whole age relative to the league conundrum. Some folks (myself inccluded) are whores for such things. I prefer to have a talented young player being pushed, facing tougher more advanced competition, while they are still working on their personal games. To me it tends to show who the real stars are, since they will face difficult time and will learn how to make the adjustments which work best for their strengths. Recent examples are guys like Miggy, Billy Butler and Elvis Andrus. I know the pushing of young stars doesnt always pan out and is often looked down upon by many, but I really feel those are the guys that should be pushed the most, in order to get the greatest return on your investment down the road. This is probably the only thing that Omar does that I wholeheartedly agree with… I cant believe I just said that in a sentence. :)

by tbach81 on Jun 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My thing with ARL

is that its part of the context side of evaluation, and needs to be treated that way. I don’t particularly have a preference one way or the other in terms of rushing guys vs. not rushing guys. With guys on different extremes of the ARL curve, it just means you have to be willing to dig a bit deeper than triple-slash likes and K/BB ratios. Like F! in this case. His raw power really has been quite good, but its gotten masked by the fact that he’s been borderline overmatched during his two years in the EL. His HR/FB was still quite good for a teenager in the upper levels, but his HR totals were low because advanced pitchers were able to get him to pound the ball into the ground at an even higher rate than his tendencies would suggest had he been playing against competition closer to his age.

On Wilmer, I completely agree with you, as long as he’s making contact, the FB% is fine. He’s not going to be a 2% HR/FB guy for too long. If he was whiffing a ton and still not walking, there would be some concern that he was going to grow into an all or nothing hacker with a low walk rate. But the fact that he’s putting the ball in play suggests his approach probably isn’t that far off, and also that he should have a chance to sustain a decent batting average.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jun 24, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if the FB%

is a result of the pitches he swings at or the type of swing he has in general.

by TheBigStapler on Jun 23, 2009 11:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

When Fernando met Wilmer

sounds like the name of some fruity chick flick movie, or maybe something in the brokeback mountain mold. Or perhaps a new sitcom involving Charlie Sheen? Maybe an animated Disney movie involving a couple of dogs who grow quite fond of each other.

Nice work though Meddler, always interested in your insight on these guys.

"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez

by nrmax88 on Jun 23, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking about

When Wilmer Met Sally (as in the league), but I came up with that mid-paragraph and it slipped my mind.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jun 23, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good work

Wilmer has been hitting much better since they fixed his diet — .296/.333/.423 in June. I’m bullish on him going forward.

by T Pac on Jun 23, 2009 1:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The other piece of this discussion

Is can you imagine what F!‘s going to do if he ever balances out his GB/FB ratio? What you really see in some of these numbers is just how much raw power he’s always had. And pounding the ball into the ground is more what you’d expected from a hitter who was overmatched by his league. He’s only 20, and he’s been putting up HR/FB that look like an upper level hitter throughout his brief professional career. His power ceiling really is absolutely tremendous, but he has to get a few more balls into the air if he wants to realize it.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jun 23, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If there's one comp I keep coming back to with Flores

It’s Miguel Cabrera. They even look exactly alike.

Jerry Manuel...stop being....stupid...

by MetsGeek on Jun 23, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My god, Wilmer is just a baby

From what sad family have they stolen this child?

by TheBigStapler on Jun 23, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My father would have given me up

for far less than the amount Flores got paid (~$600,000.)

by Sokojoe on Jun 23, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly alike? Only if Flores spent the next 3 years eating cheeseburgers nonstop.

On a more serious note, what if he doesn’t fill out and retains a typical middle infielder build (more Cora than Reyes)? Then that fly ball percentage translates to a lot of lazy fly balls and a dreadful OPS.

by madisonmetsfan on Jun 23, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More likely than not, though, that doesn't happen.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jun 23, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Already happened

Sadly, Wilmer spent all winter doing exactly that — eating cheeseburgers nonstop.

by T Pac on Jun 24, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's pretty lean now

But he’s got a big, powerful frame for a youngster. Broad shoulders, pretty thick in the middle, strong core. Seems more likely he adds quite a bit of weight. Don’t forget, Miggy was a SS early in his pro career as well, he played his vast majority of games at SS in his first two minor league seasons, before converting to primarily 3B at age 19.

Take a look at Miggy here in his rookie season:

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jun 24, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Analysis

From watching about 40 Flores at bats thus far, many of his “fly balls” are pop ups to shallow right field. He stands pretty tall in the box and his first move towards the baseball is to drop his back elbow causing him to drag the bat. He has no idea of balance or leverage. A buddy of mine who lives in Miami and sees many excellent young players commented that he really looked like a guy who hit rocks with sticks. Then you see his wrist snap on one swing every two or three games and you see what the buzz is about. He has explosive wrists and can hit a ball 300 feet with a simple flick. If he learns to widen his stance and becomes a bit more athletic, his leverage will improve and he will start dropping the big bombs Mets fans expected. I actually have a good picture on the front page of my blog which is a great example of what I’m talking about.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Jun 29, 2009 10:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

flores

How much of a factor is the weather having on Flores? It seems he didnt start hitting
until the warmer weather rolled around. Coming from Venezula im sure the cool Savannah spring had to have some affect on him. I wonder if the mets will promote him to ST Lucie next year so that he will start the season in a warmer climate.

by mets4886 on Jul 2, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting question

I’ve never actually had the pleasure of seeing Flores play (you have no idea how disappointed I was that he never made a stop in Brooklyn), but it seems plausible. The guy you might want to ask is Mike Newman of Scouting the Sally, who sees him frequently.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jul 2, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lol link selection fail

My bad, you get the point

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Jul 2, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Approach more than weather

Flores has made significant and visible improvement in his pitch selection throughout the season. He began the year as a first pitch swinger, but is now working deeper counts, taking breaking pitches the other way, and staying on the ball a little better. I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends the year at .300 which would be absolutely huge regardless of power.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Jul 3, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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