Mets Trade Ryan Church For Jeff Francoeur
by Eric Simon on Jul 10, 2009 7:25 PM EDT
in Transactions
229 comments
The Mets have solved all of their problems by trading Ryan Church to the Braves for Jeff Francoeur. Mets fans rejoice: the World Series is officially ours!
[Added by Sam]:
Growing up in Tennessee, most of my friends were Braves fans. I endured some painful moments throughout the 90s. Once Minaya came aboard, however, things improved. The Mets were better than the Braves, a result of the Mets improving and the Braves getting noticeably worse.
I used to talk up Lastings Milledge to them. He's got range. He can hit for power. Once Lastings comes up, you guys won't stand a chance. It was partly just me jokingly hyping the legend of an already hilarious persona. Yet, I believed. Milledge had the skills and the upside that few players his age did. When they traded Lastings to the Nationals for Ryan Church and Brian Schneider my friends laughed. The player I had constantly been hyping was traded for an outfielder the Nats were benching. It was embarrassing. I told my friends at least he wasn't Jeff Francoeur. They got off my back.
Yet here we are again. After the Mets traded Milledge for Church they said it was upside for defense and reliability. Now, after trading Church for Francoeur they say it's reliability for upside. This explanation is just as specious as the first one. Omar Minaya just traded our third best hitter for a Sports Illustrated cover from 2005.
...love the deal…
…the Mets needed to shake up the roster… the potential francoeur has is much greater than that of church, plus the Mets lose nothing on the defensive side… -Metsblog
What upside? His mythical, BABIP-inflated, flukey rookie year? The guy has plate discipline that makes Omir Santos look like Barry Bonds. People talk about Francoeur's "'improvements" this year, which have tangibly resulted in a better 82% contact rate. Unfortunately, that means very little when you walk at a 3.8% rate. Less than 4% of his plate appearances result in a walk. For a team that was already having trouble getting baserunners, the Mets should expect to have ZERO offense going forward.
According to fangraphs, Francoeur was a 3.6 WAR player in 2007, but that was almost entirely the product of UZR rating his arm as +16 runs. Sure he has a great arm, but that number looks like a huge aberration. Not to mention, since 2007 his OPS has dropped from .782 to .653, this year sitting at a hefty .634.
Just over the course of this season, Francoeur's ZiPS rest-of-season projection is .304 wOBA, which seems pretty generous the way he's been hitting. By contrast, Church is projected at .344, an actually respectable number. Over a projected 280 PA for the rest of the year, that's eleven runs difference in offense. Factor in that nearly every defensive metric likes Church better in rightfield than Francoeur and you have a loss of 1.5 wins over the course of the season. Using the conservative estimate that 1 WAR is equivalent to 4 million dollars, that's 6 million lost just this season. Factor in that Francoeur is actually making $575,000 more than Church this season, Minaya has essentially flushed 7 Million dollars and any hope of a playoff run down the toilet. He's seemingly done the impossible: make this bunch of scrubs a few wins worse.
And that's just the damage for this season! Minaya will probably plan on Francoeur being the rightfielder for the coming years, just to prove he was right about his "upside". Has anyone been paying attention? The real reason the Mets don't make the playoffs despite having four of the best players in the National League: terrible complementary players in important positions. Francoeur is the offensive black-hole of rightfielders. Minaya is seemingly perfecting his own model for making non-contender teams. I seriously think he looked at the back of his baseball cards, saw Francoeur's averages and RBIs from past seasons and made the trade. Can anyone point out OBP on the scoreboard to Mr. Minaya?
I hope I'm wrong, but there's no Ryan Church coming from the other end of this deal. Minaya has seemingly conceded this season, and that's what makes this deal hurt most of all.
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You obviously never heard of
Tom Seaver.
by blains2000 on Jul 10, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is still pretty bad.
Probably worst trade of this season.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh agreed,.
But WORST.TRADE.EVER and whatever > means? No.
Here is my text to my friend:
“Ugh Francoeur is terrible! And he will only be worse with the Mets.”
So I agree that is a bad trade overall abd bad for the Mets. Church got screwed here. So now we get screwed with Frenchy.
Enjoy all those strikeouts on balls in the dirt and 10 feet outside everybody!!!
by blains2000 on Jul 10, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Church and Castro for Broadway and Frenchy
Please no more trades! I’m sorry I asked for one!
by David G on Jul 10, 2009 6:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Omar is trying to make us the worst OBP team in the majors
It’ll be a difficult task, but by god, Omar is determined
by Syler on Jul 10, 2009 6:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Joe Beningo has been appeased.
Praise the creator!
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 6:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Same Joe Beningo
Who demanded Santos could not be sent down prior to the Castro trade?
by David G on Jul 10, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope they lose 10 in a row
Seriously. I’m scared of what might happen if Minaya and Freddie think we’re contenders come the end of July. Better to concede this season, fire everyone in the offseason, and offer Andrew Friedman $50 million to come here and start building a decent ballclub around Wright, Reyes, Beltran, and Santana.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
don't foget to add Frenchy to that core...
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 10, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other news
Anyone want some cheap tickets? I feel about these tickets much the way the Mets must have felt about Church, I’ll pay you to take em’ off my hands (jk, but almost).
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Mets needed an outfield bat, but not at the cost of the only healthy outfielder who was hitting!
No night spent pantsless is a wasted night.
by sireric on Jul 10, 2009 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Does Frenchy have Grission?
No night spent pantsless is a wasted night.
by sireric on Jul 10, 2009 6:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No. No, he does not.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll sum up the season right here.
Phillies: Roy Halladay
Mets: Jeff Fucking Francouer.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 6:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is my first post at Amazin Avenue
Let me just say that this trade is an uttah disastah (tm Mike Francesa) and it has ruined my weekend before it can even start. I am just severely bummed out right now thanks to this awful trade. Thanks, Omar.
by Cox813 on Jul 10, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Fucking Paperman would make a better GM than Omar
Atleast we’d have Manny
by James Kannengieser on Jul 10, 2009 6:50 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Look at the bright side
At least this trade means that they are committing center field to Angel Pagan for the foreseeable future.
by Cox813 on Jul 10, 2009 6:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well jerry can now
“Play the hot hand” at a multitude of positions.
Anyone else amazed that nick evans got sent down rather than argenis?
by mets81 on Jul 10, 2009 6:51 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Amazed sure..
shocked? No
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 10, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a bad deal
I don’t have any issues with this one at all.
Francoeur will play everyday as Church was just not the guy. Management seemd to have a problem with Church and his stupid slide to catch a ball (that went by him) and not stepping on third in LA that cost the Mets the game probably pushed management over the edge.
I think JF will do better in the Mets linup than over in Atlanta. He’s gonna be hitting behind Wright which will help. When Beltran gets back that shuld help matters. Francouer is not gonna hit for average in the .300s but will give you a .290 or .280 avg that can bring a little power to the plate.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you mean .290 or .280 OBP O-B-P!!!!!!
Frenchy is one of the worst players in baseball. Period. This is a terrible move.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
-3.0 WAR in 2008 ftl
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jul 11, 2009 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Youre a moron
Church was the only player in the lineup that had any sort of consistency. He was the second best player in the lineup and should have been playing every day, even if Manuel was too dumb to play him. Francoeur is just terrible.
by mikesmetsrthebest on Jul 10, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Church was gaffe prone
Francouer is not one of the worst players in the majors by any stretch.
I don’t love this and I don’t hate it either. It is the the kind of trade I expected.
You do realized that OBP is highly predicated upon who’s hitting in front of you or behind you? The lineup you are hitting in also has an impact on the numbers you put up.
Francouer, the so called worst player in the majors, has two 100 RBI seasons on his resume.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
these things you think, they are not true
1. You are wrong about the meaning and value of OBP.
2. You are wrong about the meaning and value of RBI.
3. You are responding to facts with opinions.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
OBP is predicated upon who’s hitting in front of you
RBI apparently is not
by James Kannengieser on Jul 10, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You moron
You do realized that OBP is highly predicated upon who’s hitting in fron
t of you or behind you? The lineup you are hitting in also has an impact on the numbers you put up.
Not really true, but I understand the point. Lineups often affect stats…
Francouer, the so called worst player in the majors, has two 100 RBI seasons on his resume.
Did you seriously just praise RBIs and diss OBP? Really? GTFO
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not doing either
My point is that this is still an upgrade over Church.
Francouer’s stats seem to be better depending on who else is in the lineup. Atlanta hasn’t had a very good lineup in a long time. This year the highest BA on that team is .299.
A few years back he put up some decent numbers. I never held that Church or even this guy is brought in here for their OBP. More than likely, as the Mets get some guys back, Francouer will probablly hit behind Wright in the 6th spot in the lineup.
I think this guy can do what everyone thought Church was brought into to do. Not only that, but he has a much better record than Church at staying healthy. This probably buys FMart some time so as not to rush him back. Francouer will be just enough to prevent people from walking Wright just to get to those weak 6/7/8 hitters. Francouer is much better at driving in runs than Church.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is NOT an upgrade over Church
Francoeur sucks. He is terrible. He is worse than those “weak” 6/7/8 hitters.
Church was not Vlad Guerrero, but he was a serviceable player. Francoeur would struggle to OBP .350 in Binghamton.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that the guy can stay healthy
through 162 games, alone is a major upgrade over Church.
Remeber how we were all bitchin and a moanin that Xavier Nady was gone?
That’s pretty much what this guy is brought in here to do. He’s not here to bat cleanup when Beltran, Reyes and Delgado get back. He’s here to hit at the bottom of the order.
This trade is not the end of the world. Church was not the second coming of jesus on this team was never going ot be the player you wanted him to be.
Case closed.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you'd prefer 162 games of suck
over 130 games of decentness?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you read a thing I wrote?
First, who is this “we” that was bitching about Nady? I liked the deal for Oliver Perez. If anyone complained about the loss of Nady, it was because he was better than Shawn Green.
Well, Shawn Green is better than Francoeur.
“He’s here to hit at the bottom of the order”. Are you even reading what you’re writing? You want our RF to be a bottom-of-the-order guy? Like I said, Church was no 1st-ballot HOFer, but he was serviceable. Francoeur is not. He might be serviceable if he played outstanding defense at SS (think Adam Everett), but instead he plays crappy defense in RIGHT FIELD WHERE YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A GOOD HITTER!
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
RF is not where you have bottom of the order bats.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the stupidest argument running in baseball today
Does it really matter where you position players hit in the lineup?
Ryan Church is not a guy you want in an RBI spot or anywhere near the top of the order. Same goes for Nady.
Have you even looked at the Averaged of Right Feilders in basball right now? Only six in the entire league are hitting over .300 right now.
In a healthy lineup you get .290 and 20 HRs out of Francouer that’s about the league average for the position.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
repeat after me:
BATTING AVERAGE IS A STUPID STAT.
And we’re not going to get .290 and 20 HRs out of Frenchy. We’d be more likely to get that out of Church.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won't hit .290
Nor will he hit 20 HRs.
And yes positions matter if your not getting the production anywhere else. Generally speaking 1B 3B and Corner spots are more power spots…Well he have 5 Hrs from Murph, 5 from Wright, 10 from Sheff and had 2 from Church. WE HAVE NO POWER
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 10, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
20 home runs?!?
His power has declined since 2006. Do you really believe he is going to regain it in the home run graveyard that is Citi Field?
And Francouer isn’t hitting .290 unless he gets extremely lucky like he did in 2007 when he had a BABIP of .342
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 10, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you high?
You’ve got to be fucking joking.
It doesn’t matter where you put your position players in your lineup. Fair enough. If you have a good hitting shortstop and a bad hitting first baseman, by all means put the best hitter higher up in the lineup.
Jeff Francouer has a wOBA of .278 at a non-premium defensive position while playing below average defense. He has an OBP of .282. .282!!!! That’s INANELY terrible.
He has an ISO of .102. He won’t be hitting 20 HRs.
He walks at a 3.8% rate. Less than 4 out of every 100 PA results in a walk.
His plate discipline is legendarily bad. He swings at 35.5% of pitches that are outside the strke zone. He swings at 58% of pitches he sees in total. He has the highest first pitch strike percentage in baseball.
His only redeemable quality is his arm. Ryan Church, statistically, has a better arm than Francouer.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the trade as much as anyone...
but the only reason church’s arm is statistically better is because teams stopped running on Frenchy several years ago. That would be the only area Frenchy is superior though.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 10, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I know.
But still, if he only has one good attribute, teams will work around it. If a hitter is very patient does not swing at anything unless it’s in his wheelhouse, pitchers can work around it.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They won't be working around Frenchy...
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 10, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Outfielders get credit for players not running on them.
UZR knows not just about assists, but when runners aren’t taking as many bases as you’d expect.
Beyond the Boxscore Not a member? Sign up.
by Sky Kalkman on Jul 10, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Follow along
I’m not arguing that this is the next coming of Ken Griffey jr or anything along those lines.
Francouer overall is an average MLB right fielder that can stay healthy. As of right now, the fact that you find reason to complain about that I think is hilarious. As a Met fan that alone is enough to make me happy.
You’re in essence bitching about OBP for a guy who’s gonna hit at the bottom of the line up. His career OBP is .302.
Do you know what Church means? The fact that the guy can’t stay healthy for more than 100 games should tell you enough. The fact that we don’t have to rely on some rushed minor league prospect for the 90 or so games a year he doesn’t play is already an upgrade over Church.
Want more FMart at the plate? I’m actually glad that guy hit the DL to force Minaya’s hand. At least that’s one prospect saved here.
And that’s much more valuable that Church alone.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not average at all.
And Church has more at-bats this season than anyone on our roster except Wright, Castillo, and (for now) Beltran.
A rushed minor league prospect statistically is just as valuable, if not more so, than Frenchy.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree that a prospect is more valuable than Frenchy,
but how do you make the argument that it’s “statisically” better. What statistics exactly are you referring to?
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 10, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"average" is exactly what he isn't.
If Frenchy hit like a league-average RF, we’d be singing his praises from the rooftops right now.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
This season was all but a lost cause, now it is one. I would love more Fernando, get him as many at bats as possible. I’d prefer coming in fourth playing guys who have, ya know, talent and upside than the over hyped, one half of a season of above average play francoer has had in his career.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jul 10, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
Nick Evans and Daniel Murphy are better than Jeff Franceour
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fail, take 2
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jul 11, 2009 4:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How's that bottom of the lineup looking now
hitting fifth today.
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not an upgrade.
Jesus. Come ON!
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No upgrade ... at best, it's a sidegrade ...
Is there such a thing?
by RetireNumber17 on Jul 10, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fail.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jul 11, 2009 4:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
really?
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 10, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you like this deal
then you’re an idiot.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Make a case that Ryan Church was irreplaceable
I’d like to see someone do that.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not irreplaceable
but replacing him with Failcouer is worse than replaceable…because Frenchy is a below replacement player.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nicely put
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just caught Burkhart on the pre-game, and all he could say is that Frenchy is younger, and that for whatever reason the higher ups in the Mets organization just never believed in Church.
No night spent pantsless is a wasted night.
by sireric on Jul 10, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So why the heck did we trade L-Millz for him?
by Cox813 on Jul 10, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We turned LMillz
into Brian Schneider and Jeff Francouer. NOOOOOOOOOOOO
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Omar is actually a genius
and is gonna turn around and trade francouer and schneider for milledge
by mikesmetsrthebest on Jul 10, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly.
Why trade a valuable chip like Milledge for a guy you “never believed in”? It’s like they think each new trade cancels out the preceding ones, and don’t realize how badly this reflects on the whole organization and its approach to putting a team together.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course MANG and 40% of MB readers like the deal
…love the deal…
…welcome aboard, frenchy…
by James Kannengieser on Jul 10, 2009 6:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who the hell is MANG?
At least 60% of Metsblog readers don’t like the deal. That’s a start. You really can’t expect too much from those people.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MANG MANG MANG MANG
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were three choices
Like it, hate it, unsure. The 40% for like it were by far the majority, and the hate it were the minority.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
this is a joke, right?
David Eckstein: so gritty they would eat him in the south for breakfast with some butter and sprinkle cheese.
by wrightHOF on Jul 10, 2009 6:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jesus fucking Christ, what the fuck?
Has anyone got any idea what Omar is thinking? Is this team run by complete morons? Church should have had some actual trade value, and I’m not against dealing the guy by any means — but for this?
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 6:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just to note
The Guys at Talking Chop are reacting to this thread with a modicum of pity, which is nice of them.
http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/7/10/945142/frenchy-has-been-traded
FML.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 6:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great
the one player I’ve enjoyed all year and rooted for is gone.
I make fun of Frenchy everyday at work…. living in Brave Country just got REAL BAD!!!
the guys are gonna talk so much shit now and personally why shouldn’t they…this is fucking retarded.
by RIPShea on Jul 10, 2009 6:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not, uh, David Wright?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well David Wright is a given LOL
the one guy outside of Wright,Santana,Voltron,Reyes,K-Rod (core)
by RIPShea on Jul 10, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said this in the other thread, and have decided this will be my position from here on out
DO NOT FREE JON NIESE. Leave him in Triple-A. The same thing that happened to him in Buffalo early this year is going to happen to him if he gets called up. The Mets crappy defense is going to let him down. He doesn’t have the peripherals to support a quality “ERA” with a crappy defense. The organization is going to lose faith in him, and now we know what happens when the organization loses faith in a player. DO NOT FREE JON NIESE!!!!!
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 7:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good point
You could see Jon Niese having a 6 ERA and then getting traded for Jeff Suppan in the offseason.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may buy a Mets version
+1 Pat
by James Kannengieser on Jul 10, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a way, Church is better off
With the way he’s been treated, I’m almost glad for him that’s he’s out of this circus. Watch him go nuts down in Atlanta.
by David G on Jul 10, 2009 7:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The ESPN.COM Board Loves this trade
I’m never going there again.
by David G on Jul 10, 2009 7:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what did you expect?
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF
And so a bad defensive team gets even slower in the OF. He’ll be showing off his cannon nightly after chasing another double into the RF well.
by amazin6 on Jul 10, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Quotes from Minaya via MB
“Omar Minaya said the Mets will receive ‘cash considerations’ in the deal from the Braves with Francouer.
Minaya described Francoeur as a Gold Glove right fielder, who, as he put it, ‘some consider to be the best defensive right-fielder in baseball,’ and a guy who has a very good arm.
He said talks with the Braves started yesterday afternoon, he followed up with GM Frank Wren this morning.
Minaya credited Assistant GM John Ricco with initially suggesting the team look in to acquiring Francoeur.
"This had nothing to do with not liking Ryan Church, but, one thing we like about Franceiour is the amount of games he plays," Minaya explained, pointing out that he’s played over 152 games each of the last three seasons."
Gold Glove right fielder. Funny how UZR disagrees.
by Cox813 on Jul 10, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Funny how Omar Minaya is a cuntburger.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As someone said earlier...
….Smart money is on Francoeur going down to injury within a month.
by djbutler73 on Jul 10, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be lucky for us, haha.
Because statistically, we’d be better off with someone like Angel Pagan or Nick Evans than Frenchy.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is it wrong to hope for that?
I’d kind of rather not see him in a Mets uniform, and I don’t think keeping him off the field significantly affects the value he contributes to the team.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank me in a month
(I’m not saying I’ll take a car and drive over him)
by Michkin on Jul 10, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Church doesn't play 162 games
MAYBE ITS BECAUSE HIS STUPID GM PUT HIM ON A PLANE TO FLY CROSS COUNTRY AFTER HE HAS A CONCUSSION!!!!
Go fuck youself Omar Minaya
by Endys Game on Jul 10, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or maybe because Jerry platoons him with DP Tatis.
Even still, he was fourth on our team in ABs…
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Church showing lots of class
In his post-trade comments:
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/mets/archives/2009/07/church_traded_f.html
by djbutler73 on Jul 10, 2009 7:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ooh fa
Don’t make a trade for the sake of making a trade. Stupid stupid move. I used to look forward to Francouer coming to bat against, the guys sucks.
by jacksonvillesuns on Jul 10, 2009 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Err, what just happened? Really?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!
by R_Adragna on Jul 10, 2009 7:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh my god
they are trying to make me off myself.
by SupT on Jul 10, 2009 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention...
This ruins my swag. I said they would score a run today.
by mikesmetsrthebest on Jul 10, 2009 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bright Side
seriously, there is one. Bear with me here: this trade is pretty clearly a “move for the future” (yes, a crappy future, but the future nonetheless). That suggests that Omar is probably not planning to sell the farm for a rental this season. That is very, very good news, b/c I don’t want the moron who traded Church for Francouer involved in any trades involving Jennry Mejia, Brad Holt, Reese Havens, Ike Davis, etc.
by cjmulrain on Jul 10, 2009 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The bright side is that
We’re probably tanking for Bryce Harper.
by Clemenx00 on Jul 10, 2009 7:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Watch out Nationals, here we come!
I’m serious, we should just freeze Wright, Santana, and Frankie in ice for the rest of the year, play out the string with scrubs, hope the Nats pass us by the end of the season and come back ready to win next year. There’s really no point wallowing in mediocrity this year. Better to make like the Celtics 2 years ago than the Suns.
by cjmulrain on Jul 10, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fire Omar
he lost the grip on his job. Braves to win the division now. So we’ve traded Lastings for Schneider and Francouer
"Put it in the books. The Mets are the 2006 National League Eastern Divison champions"--Howie Rose
by firejerrynow on Jul 10, 2009 7:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I UPDATED THE POST
just scroll up
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 10, 2009 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope we lose
just so Omar gets ripped
"Put it in the books. The Mets are the 2006 National League Eastern Divison champions"--Howie Rose
by firejerrynow on Jul 10, 2009 7:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
unreal
I was seriously convinced this was a joke/parody post.
by T Pac on Jul 10, 2009 7:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys
at least Jayson Werth was rewarded for his outstandingness by being selected to the All-Star game. Whew, I feel better now.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
its done
i have officially moved into the get rid of omar camp.
hate this trade
hate frenchy more then any player in baseball
hate omar
hate the mets
hate baseball
im done. no more.
by gbaked on Jul 10, 2009 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In Frenchy's legendary 2005 campaign he sported a 126 OPS+.
Church’s career high is 131.
Beyond the Boxscore Not a member? Sign up.
by Sky Kalkman on Jul 10, 2009 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Please stop, I want to die.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop overrating.
Come on, AA. Ya did this with Castro. Ryan Chruch did a decent job, but he was no superman in right and he was hitting well below .300 and missing third base when we needed him. It’s a minor deal.
If the Ryan Church trade is the difference between a championship and second-to-last place, you are stark raving mad. The Mets are not having a bad year because we have Santos over Castro or Francour over Church. We have bigger problems and their names are Reyes, Delgado, and Beltran.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 7:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Personally
I like the deal. We need some different blood, different personality…the guys are cratering. Omar doesnt want to give up young talent for a failed year quite yet. What else can ya do but shake up the lineup a little?
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know, I'm not opposed to this "shake things up" idea
Making a trade “to say you made a trade” might not be the worst thing in the world — that is, if the value on both sides of the deal is roughly equivalent. But you don’t do that by trading for a much, much worse player.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's seriously equivalent to trading David Wright for someone like Pedro Feliz.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
but should we really give up our second best healthy hitter for debateably the worst player in baseball? Is that going to help?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The worst player in baseball
I thought we’ve been saying that’s Tatis…or Santos…or Cora…? :-) Or…hey, a change of scenery made do him good. I need SOMETHING to give me a little interest in watching this dead team.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A change of scenery?
To a ballpark where home runs go to die and he will have to play an insanely complicated right field? That could only make him worse
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 10, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, man, I don't have the heart for your shit right now.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
We were totally gonna win that title til we traded Church.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look.
This isn’t the difference between 1st and last place. But are you really comfortable with a management that takes cues from talk radio and makes trades for guys who haven’t hit well since 2005?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Process
We all know that the mets as they are now aren’t winning any world series, but its about the process. You would like to see them moving in the right direction and becoming better as a team for this season and the future. Making trades blindly is not how you build or fix a team. The Mets are now a worse team than the were yesterday. Its a bad trade.
by mikesmetsrthebest on Jul 10, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No just keep telling yourself that
oh, just a massive downgrade at one position, no big deal. Seriously THIS is why the Mets suck. GREAT players at 3 positions ABYSMAL players at 4 or 5 of the other 6. No big deal, just a 6 million dollar flush.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 10, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ordinarily
I like Church better…but, desperate times are here. And Jeff seems like a better defensive player and I’m tired of being embarrassed.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not a better defensive player
Maybe he has an ever so slightly better arm, but he doesn’t have Church’s range. Church could actually kind of fake a passable CF. No one would ever even think about saying that of Francouer.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, Franceur's picture is in the dictionary next to "embarrassing".
Wait till you get a load of him at the plate.
by SupT on Jul 10, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
F.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jul 11, 2009 4:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, uh, Church is the better defensive player. Decidedly.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Dodgers series really should've made this crystal-clear.
At least when healthy, the Mets have much better star players than LA. Then why are the Dodgers effortlessly steamrolling over the Mets and the rest of the NL? Because they have an above-average player at basically every position. Omar should be taking notes on BUILDING A DEEP ROSTER, but instead he’s taking fliers on below-average guys whose tools he likes, like a scout building a rookie-league team.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
once again, just like the Castro deal
It’s not about the players in the deal, necessarily, it’s about the avalanche of evidence that the front office has no idea how to properly value players. They will never be able to build a winning team with the clowns that they’ve got running things.
Who am I kidding, it IS about the players this time. Francoeur is one of the worst, if not the worst, players in the game.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So because this team isn't going anywhere this year
They should just give away 3 wins to the Braves next year?
Francouer WARs:
2008: -1.3
2009: -0.6
Ryan Church WARs
2008: 1.6
2009: 0.4
So essentially, we gave up 2-3 wins over a full season in this trade. Even if you assume its only 2, thats 1 fewer wins the remainder of this year, and two fewer wins next year. TRAID FALE!
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't about Church being great
This about trading a player for a less valuable player just to say you made a deal. This team is bad enough and now it got worse. If nothing else, an already bad outfield defense, with no range, just decreased its range.
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 10, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many people need to tell you that you are wrong?
Here’s another:
You are wrong.
batting helmets. batting titles. obp.
by Durelo on Jul 10, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been called wrong for years.
And for years you have mocked “grission” and for years we have choked at the end while I have called for some “energy” guys.. So, call me wrong all ya want, but you ain’t right either.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So your argument is
Premise 1: You guys said I was wrong
Premise 2: The Mets did not do what I suggested
Premise 3: The Mets have failed
Conclusion: I was right, you guys were wrong.
LOGIC FAIL
The Mets success or lack thereof bears no relevance on this argument, if anything it favors “us” over “you” in that the Mets keep trying to rely on grissiony players like Omir Santos and Alex Cora and making bad trades from the saber lens like Ramon Castro for Lance Broadway and this masterpiece here.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
Seriously, the ZaBlanc shtick is getting really old here. “You guys are such sheeple, always agreeing with each other! Your facts-based approach is total groupthink! I’m a valuable contrarian with my nonsensical grit-based opinions!”
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
god bless you
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 10, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from Omar:
“I think it will be a good fit with [Carlos] Beltran in center and Francoeur in right.”
Because Voltron is capable of picking up a holy-shit-ton of slack when his RF sucks balls? I suppose you can call that a “good fit.”
batting helmets. batting titles. obp.
by Durelo on Jul 10, 2009 7:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait for Frenchy to "protect" Beltran in the lineup
Carlos will walk 230 times a year, and 100 of those will be IBBs.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm actually seriously considering not watching the Mets for a month.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It took this TRADE???
Not the horrible play? The Church trade? Wait, didn’t you curse the Mets when they traded Lastings Milledge?
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, no.
I didn’t mind the Milledge trade nearly as much as a lot of people here.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Well, I’m not saying this trade is good or bad based on stats and players, I just don’t watch the Mets live as much I’d like (I’m in Colorado). BUT, at least I have some INTEREST in watching this team the next week to see a hated Brave now playing here. And hopefully the attitude and feelings towards him in Atlanta provide a nice change of scenery here.
We’re going nowhere this year. FMart may take Church’s spot soon anyway.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could have taken the spot of someone actually bad, like Pagan
or Tatis
or Reed
etc., etc.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beltran, Martinez, and...Rios. :-)
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, if Ricciardi wanted Frenchy in a Rios trade
I’ll recant all my dissent and bow before Minaya, haha.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I would take back every bad thing I’ve said about him the past few hours. But seriously, what are the chances of that?
by cjmulrain on Jul 10, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you trade for a player as bad as Francoeur
You do the 3 way deal at the same time to ensure you don’t get stuck with crap. We’re going to be watching this guy until he gets non-tendered at the end of next year.
Glorious.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jul 11, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MAybe now there is a three was deal coming
and they wanted to avoid to a four way deal. Please let this be the answer, please?
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jul 11, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just spent the last month not watching
it did wonders for my blood pressure.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This season is done with
Ryan Church has been terrible since the concussion stuff he got mid year last year, he’s like 30, maybe he’s just done. He isn’t going to start as a corner OF and at this point there is no real difference between him, Angel Pagan and Jeremy Reed.
I can’t believe Mets fans are annoyed at the possibility of giving up this season, this season is over before this anyway. Francoceur sucks but there’s the 5 percent possibility he will magically turn it around; Church is what he is.
by Willninho on Jul 10, 2009 8:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Amen
Finally, some sense. Anytime Omar trades somebody, it was a future Hall of Famer. Chruch single-handedly cost us TWO games this year. Francour will inject something into this team…we’re going nowhere right now, and at least it’ll be fun to watch him for a week.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not expecting Francouer to win a batting title
but at least we don’t have to rush as many prospects and he can stay healthy.
I didn’t think Church was worth even this much to another team. If we got Francoeur for a guy who struggled to play more than 90 games a year I ain’t gonna complain.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
then you're an idiot.
sorry, but when Rob Neyer says one thing and Adam Schein says the other…
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not making any sense
Are you aware of the fact that Atlanta’s lineup is WORSE than the Mets when Atlanta’s is completley healthy?
What exactly did you think we were gonna get for a gut who’s damaged goods, can’t get in the lineup and struggles to play more than ninety games a season. Have you see the production of guys replacing Church when he’s out?
What exactly do you think Church’s trade value is?
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely higher than Jeff Francouer
ask any Braves fan. Look at Talking Chop, see how they’re reacting to the news (hint: with celebration)
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is it?
What do you think you’d seriously get in return for Ryan Church?
I never thought it would even be a guy, despite his numbers, that can play everyday and stay healthy.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"despite his numbers"?
WTF? Yeah, despite his inability to be a good major-league hitter, he sure stays healthy! Of course, so do I, but Omar didn’t just trade for me…
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figured Church's value
at some throw away minor league players. More or less a move to improve some else bench while you clear salary.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well then I'm glad you're not our GM.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I figured Church's value at some throw away minor league players"
well, good news: that’s basically what Jeff Francouer is. He just has a bigger name and salary than most.
by cjmulrain on Jul 11, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
Ryan Church has the 4th most at-bats among Mets…and is being platooned with Fernando DPTatis
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not saying much
given that he doesn’t play everyday and the big bats have been out for months.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I'm saying is, he hasn't been injured.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is, if the Mets wanted a sub replacement level player
They could just call up Corey Sullivan. They already had and released Wily Mo Pena, same difference. Its comparing crap, poop, and turds. Same stuff, different name
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When a negative player plays more
The negative number gets bigger, it doesn’t move closer to 0. So if a player is -1 win over 60 games, he’s -2 wins over 120 games. This is not a good thing.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless he is injecting HGH
it won’t help this team
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 10, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what?
In your language, is the “terrible” that Church was 3-4 games better than the “sucks” that Francouer does? Because it seems to me like you’re saying they’re players of equivalent value in some sense, which is NOT TRUE.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're not
Church is better now, but he’s at .6 WAR now, and was even worse the second half of last year, we’re giving up a near replacement level player for a year now for someone who at least was a top 10/15 range prospect at one point in his life. If this was Jeremy Reed for Jeff Francoeur, people wouldn’t be this mad, I kind of see it all as similar.
by Willninho on Jul 10, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would still be upset
Purely because Francouer is just terrible. Just plain awful.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Church is what he is...
which is like 3 WAR more than Frenchy…
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But that assumes the Mets know what they’re doing. If that 5 in 100 longshot doesn’t hit, will the Mets have the balls no non-tender Francouer next year? If not, they’re hurting their future just as much as their present.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember, this is the same team
that currently employs Luis Castillo, Oliver Perez, Tim Redding, etc., because we didn’t have the balls to outright release them.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's a little different
Since the Mets won’t have to pay Francouer if they don’t want to give him a contract next year. So fine, if he sucks, they’d better just let him walk and try something else, because he won’t be worth whatever amount of money greater than “0” he’ll earn in arbitration. I just don’t think the Mets management people are smart enough to realize that, and they’ll basically continue trying to hit that 5 in 100 longshot for however much money it costs them, which is collassally stupid.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get the logic
Why is is that Church “is what he is” but somehow Francouer is something else? Francouer is what he is too. He is a weak hitter hitter who had one good power year. If there is a 5% possibility of Francouer turning around, there is the same chance that Church could be the player he was at the start of last year.
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 10, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't you heard
Age and magnitude of risk and reward have a direct inverse correlation. Duh. That’s why its okay that Ollie’s only 27, because he’s not 30 yet, and if he was 30, there’d just be no chance he could ever get better.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if he's a few years younger
He’s the next Sandy Koufax.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst hitters in baseball, 2009 (halfway through season)
Orlando Cabrera (SS)
Jimmy Rollins (SS)
Wily Taveras (CF)
Jeff Francouer (RF)?
Jason Kendall (C )
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The good news here...
is that while Church is the better player, he’s still only average at best. It’s not like Minaya traded Beltran for Frenchy. And, well, Frenchy could turn it around a bit…
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by Sky Kalkman on Jul 10, 2009 8:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not gunna happen
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 10, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the one valid argument for this
But the problem is that assumes Omar and co. are generally practical thinkers, to the point where they should understand that if Francouer doesn’t turn it around, they should take advantage of the fact that they don’t have to pay him next year for some stupid longshot risk. This is not an assumption that this organization has any right to the benefit of the doubt on anymore .
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even if he turns it around, does he end up better than Church?
I don’t really see Francoeur’s best-case upside as that different from Church’s current ability-if-healthy. I’d be happy to be persuaded, but really, how much “potential” should the guy still get credit for at this point?
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
The Mets aren’t going to contend this year without a minor miracle. I think that there is a greater chance than not that the Mets get the short end of the stick here, but I also think that there is a non-zero chance that Francoeur puts his “tools” together and gives them a couple of really strong months.
Am I thrilled? No, but this is nowhere near the abomination that the Santos/Castro thing was. There is at least a case to be made here.
by sjohnson125 on Jul 10, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what's the chance
That if you miss that longshot non-zero chance, and Failcouer doesn’t put it together, that Omar will do the right thing and non-tender him? Not good.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this.
emphasis on non-zero, though
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 10, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop worrying about Ryan Church
We are getting one hit, at home, by Bronson freakin Arroyo, and the Reds.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 10, 2009 8:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Arroyo ALWAYS pitched well against us
LOL
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To the defenders of this trade
Let’s assume the best and that Francoeur and Church are a wash. How does this help the team? They just swapped players. Nothing was upgraded, no holes were filled, and no problems were solved.
This then just becomes a move to say a move was made. And since I’m not aware of any “intangibles” that Francoeur brings, what’s the point?
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 10, 2009 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JF can stay healthy
So even if it;s an even swap we win on that end alone.
BTW; Has anyone even taken a look at how terrible Atlanta’s line up is? Their best hitter is hitting.299 and these guys from what I gather are not filling holes for injured players.
To the folks in Atlanta Church probably looks like one of the best cleanup guys they’ve had in a long time. See how they like him when he misses 80 games a year.
by Chickendirt on Jul 10, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IT'S NOT AN EVEN SWAP
One more fucking time, for emphasis, before I give up:
A SUB-REPLACEMENT-LEVEL PLAYER WHO STAYS HEALTHY IS NOT AN IMPROVEMENT OVER A GOOD PLAYER WHO SITS OCCASIONALLY
ALSO, CHURCH IS HEALTHY
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does that help?
Anybody the Mets can plug into RF from their current roster has a better WAR than Francoeur. So even if Church got hurt again, you can put Sheffield, Tatis, or Reed in and they would still be better than Francoeur.
I’m not saying any of these guys are good, but just because a guy can stay healthy doesn’t mean he is more valuable.
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 10, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW, here's a spelling tip
If you’re struggling, as I am, to remember how to spell Frenchy’s last name, just use this mnemonic:
Francoeur: Oh, eeeewwww!
That will remind you that the vowels in his name go O-E-U — and that he sucks.
by anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 8:45 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 10, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm mad enough that percentage of my cognitive load is getting taken up by this stupid player already
I could give a fuck how he spells is name, he’s getting too much of my attention already.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 10, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what?
Minaya has seemingly conceded this season, and that’s what makes this deal hurt most of all.
I disagree. As quickly as we’re losing ground, and as slowly as our injured players appear to be recovering, I’m fine with conceding this season and building for 2010. As bit as the Mets have been by the injury bug, I don’t even think I blame the guys who are in charge for it all that much. You take three of the best hitters out of any team in the league and the odds are that that team isn’t making the playoffs, and that’s not even mentioning the injuries to the pitching staff.
No, the problem is that if this is Omar’s idea of building for 2010, then he has no idea what he’s doing and I fear for 2010 and beyond.
by JoshNY on Jul 10, 2009 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya
don’t totally agree, but that’s defensible. I’m mostly upset because our chances were as good as the Braves and now they have a better chance. Maybe it’s my anti-braves bias.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 10, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't blame you for that one
If you’re going to make a stupid trade, at least don’t also have it help one of your rivals.
by JoshNY on Jul 10, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we keep playing the way we have been,
then I have no problem conceeding the season. I’d still like to see Omar take a shot at Rios, but I’d rather he do it asap rather than waiting for the deadline. I wish there was a way to get an honest answer from Jerry as to what was the deal with he and Church.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 10, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if this is worse than the Royals' trade
But it sure sucks.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Jul 10, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is worse
because we gave up an average major leaguer for the 4th worst hitter in baseball that plays regularly, and the only one out of those 4 that doesn’t play a premium defensive position like SS or CF.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 10, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just in case we were thinking of questioning Omar's brilliance
Brian Bannister had a brilliant pitching performance tonight against one of the best lineups in baseball, and his 4.16 tRA would put him second amongst Mets starting pitchers. I’m sure Ambiorix Burgos had a really productive night too
by njmetfan12 on Jul 11, 2009 1:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He did
He cut two dudes with a shiv while they were sleeping quietly in their cells.
by Eric Simon on Jul 11, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet that shiv had great velocity!
by njmetfan12 on Jul 11, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He brought the heat.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unlike that stupid Matt Lindstrom guy
who is now closing for the Marlins, who Omar made sure to trade for Adam Bostick and Jason Vargas
by njmetfan12 on Jul 11, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a joke, right?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not annoyed by this trade, Ryan Church was never going to be playing in RF when this team won a WS(Hypothetically speaking)if Jeff Franceur can fulfill his potential the Mets quite easily win this trade…if not they lost Ryan Church.
Players like Ryan Church starting are one of the problems with this Met team namely backup level players starting.
Franceur will probably not fulfill all that potential but Ryan Church wasn’t the answer in RF either.
I’m certainly not going to freak out about the Castro & Church trades.
The Kazmir, Bannister etc trades were freak out worthy.
Just noticed on another website that Tampa are looking to trade Kazmir…me wanty.
by Ohpityme on Jul 11, 2009 7:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Its not so much the acquiring of Francoer that is bad OR the trading of Ryan Church, but that they traded something of value for something with (Presently)zero.
Ryan Church could have been used in a package to acquire something better.
by Ohpityme on Jul 11, 2009 7:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe *this* is the real reason they dumped Church
Church’s home/road numbers:
Citi: .216/.278/.297
Road: .326/.359/.444
I pasted these from some post on one of the Atlanta boards, where it was evidence that Church will improve once out of NY, but presuming they are correct you see a big problem: Church could not hit to save his life in Citi Field. Citi being the big weird pitcher’s park that it is, I wonder if this sort of thing will continue to plague the Mets…they get a player who is fundamentally decent, except he can’t hit a lick in the park where he plays half his games…which screws up his numbers and ruins his trade value.
Does anyone have stats on how Frenchy has hit in Citi? I realize the sample is going to be too small to be meaningful, but I’m curious.
by erich10031 on Jul 12, 2009 11:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Never mind, I found the answer...
baseball-reference.com breaks down stats by park. cool!
Frenchy had 12 AB in Citi as a Brave, and was 1 for 11 (a single) plus a SF. Oof.
by erich10031 on Jul 12, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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