Braves Fans React To Church-For-Francoeur
by James Kannengieser on Jul 11, 2009 12:30 PM EDT
in Interweb
147 comments
The Ryan Church-Jeff Francoeur trade is incredibly foolish, and no amount of "upside", "great throwing arm", and "he plays 162 games" can change that. Our multiple trade threads are saturated with confusion and justifiable anger directed at the Mets front office. On the other side of the Mason-Dixon Line, our friends at Talking Chop have trade threads generally filled with relief and utter jubilation. Here are some of my favorite comments from their threads, which demonstrate just how thrilled Braves fans are to be rid of Failcoeur:
- The Atlanta Braves have traded the once-Golden-Boy, Jeff Francoeur, to the division rival New York Mets for outfielder Ryan Church. I am beside myself.
- Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy. No more FYF [F*** You Francoeur]. Praise the Lord.
- FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST! THANK F***ING GOD, WE ARE FREE AT LAST
- Heck I would have taken a bag of used bats. Addition by subtraction is an upgrade!
- note to pitchers: 3 curveballs away….
- I’m so happy I can barely speak.
- I’m dreaming…i’m dreaming…someone wake me up. pinch me…
- Someone tell the Mets no-givsies-backsies.
- PICTURE JEFF TRYING TO HIT A HOMER AT CITI FIELD LOLOLOLOL
- This opens up a new market for the Failcoeur T-shirts.
- How bad is a guy when your biggest upside is that you don’t get hurt a lot. Quotes and moves like this make me VERY happy Omar Minaya works for the Mets.
- All the girls on my facebook newsfeed are crying about the trade…
- Enjoy New York Frenchy, they’re going to love watching you suck terribly.
- Wow, I almost s*** my pants when I read the headline.
And my personal favorite:
-
Omar is definitely the man of the hour…in Atlanta. He’ll never pay for a drink in this town again.
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I love our little reality-based corner of the Internets.
I’ve been listening to WFAN a little to see what people think, and the callers are mixed. I did hear one guy point out that Church’s BA is higher than Francoeur’s OBP, which was nice. Here’s all you need to know about a couple of hosts:
Evan Roberts: defends the trade.
Richard Neer: is baffled, thinks the trade makes no sense, says the outlook for Mets fans is grim.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jul 11, 2009 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Evan Roberts is a shill.
He’s smarter than your average Beningo, but that’s not saying much.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so is the giant rock that we should play in RF
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 11, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and now Roberts is proposing the Reyes for Bucholz-Ellsbury-Lowrie
Haven’t we done enough to hurt our team?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, that's an amazing trade for you guys...
but I don’t want to start another argument with Meddler, so I’ll leave it alone :).
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 12, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's awful and not enough.
We don’t need Ellsbury and Lowrie is not a suitable replacement for Reyes. Buchholz is the only piece worth having.
They’d have to throw in Lars Anderson and Dan Bard amongst others to make it palatable.
In total, Omar just needs to stay the hell away from Theo.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jul 12, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So we're really going to play this guy everyday for multiple years?
ew
by Gina on Jul 11, 2009 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it's disgusting.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope not
But since we’re playing Castillo every day for multiple years, I’m not holding my breath.
On another note, how sad is it that Luis might be our 2nd-best hitter right now?
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 11, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castillo's OBA is 26 points higher than Francoeur's SLG
He’s probably #3 after Sheffield. Ugh.
by psiogen on Jul 11, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully omar gets fired before the end of the year
and the new guy doesn’t re-sign him
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
by hotspur on Jul 11, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wishful thinking
Frenchy’s under contract thru 2011, and all the injuries give Omar and Jerry an alibi for the team’s failure this season. Not to mention all the money left on Omar’s contract – the Wilpons hate paying guys to get lost.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jul 11, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frenchy's contract does not run through 2011...
He is arbitration eligible and his contract goes from season to season. The Mets don’t have to tender him a contract if they don’t want to pay him.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 11, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think so
All things pointed to Minaya non-tendering Church in the offseason and in his dullard logic, he figured “Hey, this guy hit 29 HR’s once, lets give it a try. If it doesn’t work out, I lose nothing.”
Thus the fatal flaw in this organization’s Front Office.
My fear is that he puts together an aberational 2 month performance and we keep him.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jul 11, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't that be classic Mets, though?
“Frenchy” (barf) goes like .350/.450/.800 for 2 months, Mets miss by 1 game again, and we lock him up for 8 years, when he reverts to his career norms.
by DonGately on Jul 11, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if Omar keeps being stupid
If the writing isn’t on the wall already that he’s getting non-tendered at the end of this year, I don’t know what better sign there could possibly be that the entire front office management structure of this team needs to be tossed out on the street.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't been able to get this bizarre trade out of my head since it happened.
When I first heard the players invovlved, my jaw hit the floor. I thought about it for about 5 seconds, and began thinking that we’d soon hear Atlanta included a PTBNL. After hearing Minaya’s comments, I became even more confused. First, I couldn’t actually believe he felt Francoeur was one of the best defensive outfielders in the game. Second, why weren’t the Mets getting at least minor league filler in the deal?
I’ve been trying hard to at least find a few positives in the deal, and I’ve been struggling more than I thought I would (and I didn’t have much in the way of expectations). I did manage to find a few reasons for hope.
-Francoeur statisically is such an obvious downgrade from Church that it’s fairly obvious that statistics weren’t even a consideration in evaluating this deal. If Francoeur continues to perform this poorly, it may actually force Wilpon to notice the abscence of any statisical analysis in Omar’s approach. Even if Minaya isn’t replaced, if it forces him to explain his thinking to Wilpon it could help with his approach in the future.
-In an offseason when corner outfielders are one of the few areas the free agent market will be fairly strong, seeing Francoeur and Sheff being trotted into the Outfield every day should force us to prioritize that above everything else.
-At least it leaves a clear path for Fernando to take over as a regular, and even Omar should have a difficult time adding him to a trade now.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 11, 2009 1:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Problems with your reasons for hope
1. You’re assuming the Wilpons can even spell statistics, or care one way or another if money isn’t an issue.
2. Corner outfield was a strength last year in the off-season and we were trotting out a guy we just traded for Francoeur and a guy with a whopping 20 some games under his belt and Sheffield was their idea of an upgrade over that.
3. You, and really clearly all of us, underestimated Omar’s ability to make awful trades.
by Gina on Jul 11, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe HoJo has a secret plan to fix him
that involves some clockwork-orange-style aversion therapy to brainwash him into taking pitches
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
by hotspur on Jul 11, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We made the deal because HoJo said "I can fix him in 10 minutes"
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jul 11, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would probably take longer than that to put a dent in his head with a mallet.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JamesK seems to be unable to get it off his head
I don’t blame him. We are all up in arms.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
I have very little to say about this trade other than, uh, nuts. Bad Omar!
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 11, 2009 1:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
im still in denial
I’m waiting to wake up… But I’m also boycotting my Mets new eras for a week (at least).
I’m wearing my Royals new era my ex-girlfriend got me.. Hey it’s a cool hat!!!
The saddest part has yet to come (if it ever does). That part is if Failcouer by some stroke of a miracle, angels in the outfield, returning from Transformers heaven, having a remote to make Jennifer Aniston’s boobs bigger, David Tyree with a helmet catch, THE BAND IS ON THE FIELD type miracle hits a HR this weekend in Citi Field we as intelligent fans of the Mets will be in digust. You will see/hear fans like Cerrone and Metsblog be on Omars jock so haaardd. I mean I’ve defended Omar for a long time but you have got to be shitting me…
Wake me up now.
by RIPShea on Jul 11, 2009 1:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
So you don't plan to cheer him even if he does good?
I mean, I’m not expecting anything, but I’ll still root for the guy to succeed….
by Syler on Jul 11, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nobody has said that
But at the same time… Why worry about that? It will never happen. Francoeur will never be an all-star in a Mets uniform.
by RIPShea on Jul 11, 2009 2:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Royals New Era?
The one team that actually did worse than us yesterday.
by Gina on Jul 11, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you wear a Royals hat in public people don’t pay attention. They say “oh that’s a nice hat but I didn’t know Royals fans existed anymore.”
When you wear a Mets hat (esp. Living less than 100 miles from ATL after the Francouer trade people seem to laugh at you.
by RIPShea on Jul 11, 2009 2:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
When you live less than 100 miles from Atlanta
in a house with Braves fans they laugh at you regardless of what you’re wearing =/,
by Gina on Jul 11, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing about this deal?
I’ve been calling for Minaya’s head all season and this trade does not bother me. I always thought that if it came down to it, and the Mets traded Church, they were gonna get throw away minor leaguers. Can argue numbers on this all day but the fact is that if you’re a right fielder struggeling to play more than a 100 games a year, you’re not gonna get much return on him.
I’ve seen Minaya make some dumb deals but I don’t think this necasarly fits into that category. I ain’t gonna get upset about it either.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This argument has been made all ready, but...
if you played a rock in place of Jeff Francoeur for 162 games, it would be more valuable than Jeff.
by Syler on Jul 11, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The rock
Has better plate discipline. It wouldn’t swing at 38% of pitches out of the strike zone.
by Reg Dunlop on Jul 11, 2009 2:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
This is an exaggeration
A funny one, but not an accurate statement. When we say that Francoeur has negative value we have to be clear that the baseline is not literally zero, but rather replacement level. Francoeur has been worse than replacement level, which is to say that some readily-available alternative could be found kicking around Triple-A and could be expected to perform better than Frenchy. A rock, while perhaps toolsy and edgy, is quite a bit worse than replacement-level.
by Eric Simon on Jul 11, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to factor in the rock's grission as well
by njmetfan12 on Jul 11, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Free Corey Sullivan!
Yes friends, this is how low we’ve sunk.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well the problem is we got less than nothing in return
A 0 would have been better than Frenchy who is a negative return. I mean clearly Omar could have done much worse so I guess we can be glad we just swapped bleh with bleh^2 but its just more proof that the chances of us ever building a team to take advantage of the talents of our core are little to nothing. Especially since we can pretty much expect there to be no chance they go after a bat now. Murphy at first and Frenchy and F-mart in the corners in 2010 is probably beautiful to Omar.
by Gina on Jul 11, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like someone to establish what Ryan Church's value is on the trade market
What exactly is an equal return for a guy who struggles to play more than 100 games a season?
I understand people not being crazy about Francoeur. I’m ok with that but we at least have to look at what Church’s value is. This guy was a throw in along with Schneider in the Lastings Milledge trade. Obviously even Washington knew Church wasn’t worth much and lets be honest, as mentioned above, his inability to play a full season hurts his value.
We were never going to get anything good for Church. Sadly, Francoeur may actually be the best return we were going to get for him.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So why did we trade Church?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 11, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly cause they needed someone ANYONE
Who could play right field everyday.
FMart just went on the DL and there’s not a lot of depth on this team.
Look at the outfield before this deal?
Evans, Nick
Murphy, Daniel
Pagán, Ángel
Reed, Jeremy
Sheffield, Gary
A lot of those guys are playing out of position right now and Church, having fallen out of favor with Manuel (If there’s a guy you wanna get mad at) and wasn’t playing everyday. Sheffeild has been batteling some kind of injury lately as well. There’s really not much available to play everyday in the outfeild.
I like FMart but I don’t think he is ready to be an everyday player right now. He’s overmatched at the plate and could benefit from a little more time in the minors with a few call ups sprinkeled in. Murphy is growing on me but he was a disaster in the outfield as well.
Murphy I am all for rewarding him for good play with a spot in the lineup the next day. Manuel doesn’t think so for some whacky reason. OTOH I don’t think Murph should be thrown to the wolves either and clearly needs time to make an adjustment to the game on this level.
The injuries to this team are that bad. I don’t think people realize that even a guy who’s capable of playing everyday is that valuable right now. Other teams know this and it makes it hard to deal from a position of strength.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Church hasn't really had too many injury problems this season
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's been gaffe prone
Not stepping on third which cost the Mets a game in LA.
His diving after a ball in the outfeild only attemptiing to trap it when we had a three run lead the other night.
Those are two that standout. I don’t recall a lot of others either but I wonder if Manuel was keeping Church out of the lineup to hide the holes in his game. He’s had a few other gaffes in the outfield as well I just can’t recall all of em right now.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about a full season gaffe of getting on base 28% of the time.
Is that better? All of those things are isolated incidents. Church is a MUCH stronger all around player and has exponentially less holes than Francoeur.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jul 11, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They could be isolated incidents because Church is not playing everyday
My point being is that Manuel probably sees something in this guy, and those gaffes may play a big role, that justified limiting his playing time.
It’s possible that if Church were playing everyday he would have had even more of those “isolated incidents”. I have to wonder if Church ever really fully recovered from those two concussions last season.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well,
Church would be playing everyday if the Mets did not have a moron manager.
Also, Church would most likely did not go to the DL (but rather skipped just a few games) had Beltran been healthy at the time of Church’s “injury”.
Hence, I do not view Church as a 100 games player. A 140 is maybe closer.
by alexSVK on Jul 11, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look, if you want to defend the cheese eating surrender monkey...
that’s fine. But again, getting on base 28% of the time, having a lower range factor than Church and having an inability to contribute to any of the team’s needs.
And forgive me if I don’t fully trust Jerry’s player development and scouting. The guy can’t even fill out a simple line-up correctly.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jul 11, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hogwash
Entirely speculation on your part. You’re not making any form of cogent argument. You’re saying “something that has no particular relationship or correlation to anything else that happened, did in fact happen. Maybe if there were more chances for it to happen, it would have happened again”. I’m pretty sure Ryan’s had the opportunity to step on third base, or not step on third base, plenty of times in his career. And I’m pretty sure all but one of those times, he did step on third base. Just because the stupid low probability outcome happened to hit once doesn’t make it any more likely to happen again.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All your point does
Is emphasize Jerry’s infatuation with stupid logical fallacies like selection bias. It bears no relevance on the quality of “Ryan Churchness”
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Church has been one of the more consistent Mets outfielder both offensively and defensively.
Per Value from Fangraphs
Offense——Defense
Church: 3.7—1.8
Frenchy: 13.3—0.6
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that doesn't look very good.
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys who could have played everyday instead of Jeff Francoeur
Corey Sullivan
Wily Mo Pena
Jesus Feliciano
Chop Ambres
Lucas Duda
If you don’t like any of those guys, who all happen to already be in the organization, you can just go scrolling through other organizations and ask if you can buy one of their crappy replacement level minor league vets.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus Feliciano has been in the minors for ten years and has bounced around many organizations. No one has called him up. He’s 29 years old.
Duda is an infeilder and the Mets needs guys who can play everyday in the outfield.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Two corrections:
1. If your argument is this:
Premise A: No one as ever given Jesus Feliciano a major league look.
Premise B: People have given Jeff Francoeur a major league look
Conclusion: Jeff Francoeur> Jesus Feliciano
Ima have to give you the old LOGIC FAIL. Whether or not someone has been stupid enough to try a below replacement level player out has nothing to do with the actual quality of that player, it has to do with the organizations willingness or lack thereof to look at a sub replacement level player.
2. How often have you been following the minor league lineups? I do almost every day. And frequently, Lucas Duda has been playing in the outfield, seeing as how Shawn Bowman and Ike Davis have been playing 3B and 1B most often, respectively. That may not make Duda a great outfielder, but at least the guy can draw a freakin walk.
And besides, nothing you said changes my point that if you want a warm body, you can simply pluck one from a minor league system. We had Wily Mo Pena. We released Wily Mo Pena. We could get another Wily Mo Pena without having to give up a positive value player.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about "critical think" on your part
If Feliciano is such a reliable everyday replacement why, in ten years, has this guy never gotten a shot? We are talking about through multiple organizations. Do you have a “logical explanation” for this?
Again, you are the one proposing these guys as viable EVERYDAY PLAYER replacements. It is up to you to provide positive evidence of the fact.
Duda may very well be playing in the outfielfd right now. I may have very well gotten that wrong. I looked him up on Wiki and a minor league blog. The point still stands that he is a natural infeilder/1st basemen. The fact that he is playing out of position in the minors is not justification that it will work on the major league level.
Also, we are not talking about giving these guys a few games here. We are talking about everydays rister spots because the Mets have to fill holes. I’m not comfortable with that at all. Especially considering that Duda hit .263 last season in St Lucie.
I’d rather suck it up with Francoeur than rush a prospect or take a risk on a 29 year old who up till now has never gotten a shot with one MLB franchise on the pro level.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong again friend
I have to do no such thing. The onus is on you to show why Francoeur is any better than a player who has “never gotten a major league look”. My point isn’t that I think Jesus Feliciano is a good player. My point is that he’s a bad player. A bad player whose already in the organization. I have to demonstrate nothing about his quality. Your whole argument is that Jeff can “play every day”. Corey Sullivan can play every day. He has played virtually every day. So has Jesus Feliciano. That’s the only criteria I have to prove to you to fit your model of of “the usefuleness of Jeff Francoeur”
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wiggle out
Plain and simple, you have no proof to back up your argument that a guy who’s a 29 year old career minor leaguer is a better everyday replacement than Francoeur because there’s no evidence to support such a weak position.
You are using the fact that you have no evidence to support this claim as evidence to support your claim; Absence of evidence being evidence on your part.
And nobody here ever claimed that you had to prove Feliciano was a good a player. That’s a serious red herring on your part.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not claiming that!
I’m not saying he’s “better”. I’m just saying he “is”. In this case, my lack of evidence is better than your bad evidence. You’re logic is pure induction, and you’re treating it as deduction. At least I know what I’m arguing
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is
You are confusing the following arguments.
Premise: Jesus Feliciano is a bad player
Premise: Bad players don’t make the majors
Conclusion: Jesus Feliciano won’t make the majors.
With this argument:
Premise: Bad players don’t make the majors
Premise: Jesus Feliciano has never made the majors
Conclusion: Jesus Feliciano is a bad player.
COMPLETELY different arguments.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides, you're strawmanning my original argument to death
By focusing on one fairly irrelevant example. I gave you five. What about the other four? Even if I grant you that Feliciano is a bad example, which I don’t think you’re actually making a legitimate case for, then what about every other crappy sub replacement minor leaguer in the world that the Mets could have just bought for $600k
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man, I just noticed this one
And nobody here ever claimed that you had to prove Feliciano was a good a player. That’s a serious red herring on your part.
While I commend you for actually picking out the closest logical fallacy to the thing I was doing, it wasn’t a red herring. That was a statement in contrast to my following statement of “Jesus Feliciano is a bad player”. I never asserted that you asserted that I had to show Feliciano was a “good” player. But what you did to d was assert that I had to show that Feliciano was a “better” player than Jeff Francoeur.
Plain and simple, you have no proof to back up your argument that a guy who’s a 29 year old career minor leaguer is a better everyday replacement than Francoeur because there’s no evidence to support such a weak position.
When in fact, what I’m saying, is that I have to support no such claim, nor am I trying to make one. My claim is that you could pluck a player of similar (not better ) quality to Jeff Francoeur out of any minor league system or team, including the Buffalo Bisons, one of the worst affiliates on all of baseball.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, seriously
Why are you trying to defend this move? What, in your mind makes Francouer better than any player with a line of .250/.282/.350 who plays mediocre to bad right field in spite of having a good arm?
You do realize that there are legions of 25 yr-olds in AA and AAA who can put up that line? Would you be defending that trade if it were made for one of them? Do you realize that since 2007, Lastings Milledge has been a better player than Francouer? Do you realize that as soon as Milledge gets off the DL, he will be a better player than Jeff Francouer?
What is it Francouer’s half-season of decent performance in 2005 that gets you hard for him? He’s been racing backwards since then. He has always had terrible plate discipline and he has openly expressed that he doesn’t give a damn about plate discipline. He has sucked from 2006 to 2009. He hit 29 flukey homers in 2006 and put up a .296 OBP.
Is it the RBIs? Do you realize that if you put a crappy player in a spot and he gets 100 RBIs, it only means that a better player would have gotten 120-140? Are you one of those people who discounts David Wright’s 125 RBIs in 2008 because of the chances he got and other contextual arguments? Because those contextual issues apply to Francouer * 100.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First off
I don’t have a “hard on for Ryan Church”.
Secondly, if the Mets really did have prospects in their system ready to put up better numbers right now they would be here.
Thirdly, you’re not going to get one of the AA or AAA players for Ryan Church. His stock has fallen that low.
The Mets system system is pretty shallow right now. As I’ve read, a lot of our better prospects are a few seasons out. I am not a fan of rushing prospects just so we can fill holes.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, your confusing your arguments
Secondly, if the Mets really did have prospects in their system ready to put up better numbers right now they would be here.
This is the argument this implies:
Premise: Players who are ready to get called up, get called up
Premise: The Mets have no called up any players aside from Fernando Martinez recently
Conclusion: The Mets have no players ready to be called up.
False argument, partly because the first premise isn’t technically true, and partly because even if it were true, there could be a million other reasons besides “Readiness” that the Mets haven’t called a player up. The conclusion isn’t a necessary result of the premises. Service time being the most easily explainable one, but regardless, the logic doesn’t flow.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we've all responded enough times to this guy
It’s clear that he’s not thinking logically or modifying his responses when presented with facts — he’s just repeating the same inanity over and over. Chickendirt just keeps repeating that Church had no trade value and won’t be persuaded otherwise.
by anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Funny thing is, the question becomes
“If Church is a useful player with limited trade value…WHY DO WE TRADE HIM???
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
There’s a pretty simple rule of thumb for this.
Relative Trade Value < Actual value to team
or
Actual value to team < Actual value of trade return
You don’t do the trade. In this case, both rules were violated. The whole prospect of it is that there’s some tiny little scosche of upside. But Omar and co. just aren’t delicate enough if their reasoning to handle marginal gambles like that.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See
I could understand if you were trading Eddie Kunz for him. Kunz sucks and Frenchy was a three-win outfielder two years ago. You can try to reclaim “Frenchy” at the major league level and if it’s successful, you turned a useless stone into stud. If it’s a failure, oh well, Kunz sucked anyway.
But to trade one of your better active players who’s significantly better for Francoeur is indefensible. Church is under team control through 2011 and is less expensive. That’s an epic fail.
by All Shook Down on Jul 11, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
I completely agree. I’m just trying to rationalize what I think the mentality behind the trade is. And that’s all but wave the white flag on this season, and take a gamble on a player who could turn into something more useful.
The problem is, the idea that a player like Francoeur is going to turn into a more useful player than Church over the course of three months, or even nine (baseball) months is way to small to trade one of the few positive value, cost controlled non-stars on the team. The kinda guy who would be perfectly useful if you moved him down on the the depth chart, sort of the way Pedro Feliciano has been perfectly useful now that he’s not in a mad scrum for “best reliever on the team”.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting article in the Dailey News
The players association is investigating the Mets for poor medical decisions. I wonder if Church’s concussions has something to do with it.
There’s a big controversey over the handeling of Beltran’s injury as well.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html?page=3
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a great piece by Rubin. My only gripe is about the farm system. It’s dramatically improved, but they just don’t have the depth because they lost picks from 2005-2007 and watched Kunz and Vineyard blow up on them.
by All Shook Down on Jul 11, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That just doesn't make any sense
First of all, I’m accusing you of being hard for Frenchy, no pun intended. Second, Why would we not get a AAA replacement player for Church? Why would we get Francouer for Church? Church is a 30-year-old average right-fielder. Why would we not be able to get a replacement player for him? Furthermore, why do we need to trade our 4th best active player for a player who is much worse?
You’re not answering any question about Jeff Francouer. Do you realize that Lastings Milledge is better right now than Jeff Francouer?
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not going to get any AAA PROSPECTS for Church
But AAA is generally full of replacement/substitutes with some young prospects. These AAA organizational players who are much less valuable than Church. Do you understand that Church has value or what that value is? Do you understand the worth of an average MLB player at any given position? Do you understand anything?
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does no one play Val Pascucci?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 12, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent use of the extended alphabet!
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
by hotspur on Jul 11, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evans>Failcouer.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 12, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This trade is coming to me now
I’ve been thinking for a long hard 5 minutes.
Ollie= Sandy Koufax
Francouer= the Robert Redford impersonator who once hit 29 HR
Church= The Pest (John L)
by RIPShea on Jul 11, 2009 2:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but Francoeur has the power to hit it out of CitiField
PROOF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z21n1t0LkeY
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 11, 2009 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that would have just cleared the left field wall.
The 2009 Mets: Rollins hits a la-a-a-azy fly ball to left field. Murphy ready to put this one in the books as he ma-...HE DROPS THE BALL!! Ruiz rounds second, Murphy throws in to the backup shortstop Cora WHO LETS IT GET BY HIM. To third goes Ruiz! Reed, who took Tatis' spot for defensive reasons fires to thi-...THERE'S NOBODY THERE! Putz is running over to the ball. Picks it up and whirls to home, THROWS IT AWAY! PHLLIES WIN! Putz appears hurt and we're getting word Reyes was involved in another car accident.
by ZaBlanc on Jul 11, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely unrelated
But I just officially fell in love with Fangraphs.com.
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is there a place where I can find exact explanation
on all stats found there?
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In addition to FanGraphs' glossary section,
check out The Hardball Times too.
by JE on Jul 11, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a glossary for each page.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Jul 12, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
other than going after Frenchy...
The Rox have Matt Murton wasting away in AAA (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=6307&position=OF) and Jimmy Edmonds remains homeless (i.e., still not announced his retirement). Why couldn’t Omar have checked to see if either of these guys were available?
by JE on Jul 11, 2009 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Omar iz dum
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
by AnthonyR on Jul 11, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Church was never valued properly
That’s not just an indictment of Omar Minaya, his front office and Jerry Manuel, but that’s one for MetsBlog, mainstream baseball writers, SNY talking heads and sports talk radio hosts. Church had a great opening six weeks in 2008, got hurt and messed around and came back in the second half of the season and struggled. His struggles at the plate continued into this season, but he was never so bad that he would have to sit reguarly. He’s been a good defensive player and always held his own against right handed pitching.
So with over season’s worth of information on Ryan Church in a Mets uniform (and plenty of evidence with the Nationals), reasonable people would declare that Church isn’t a star, but he is a perfectly adequate fourth outfielder on a winning team. That’s certainly not a bad thing to have, especially since he can play a steady center field. Unfortunately, the reaction from the principals stated above was one pure disappointment and disapproval. They all reacted as if Ryan Church was a failure because he didn’t live up to their (unreasonably) lofty expectations and therefore had to go. That’s what has always annoyed me. The Mets NEVER HAVE ENOUGH useful players. It’s like there’s an edict from the Mets’ brass that’s subconsciously accepted by the fans: “THERE WILL BE GREAT PLAYERS AND THERE WILL BE TERRIBLE PLAYERS, NO EXCEPTIONS!” I guess five years of Omar Minaya roster construction has that effect on people and considering the general lack of intelligence of the parties involved, it’s not surprising.
As far as the trade itself, it’s obviously terrible. The only way it works out remotely well is if Francoeur is kept away from most right-handed pitching, as his career OBP against them is .294 (he actually has an OPS of .800+ against left handers) and if his defense returns to its 2007 form. Considering our moron manager, I don’t expect the first to happen, instead I expect the problem exacerbated with Francoeur batting behind either Wright or Sheffield everyday.
by All Shook Down on Jul 11, 2009 4:23 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
+1
Omar’s inability to construct a deep roster full of useful, average to above-average players has absolutely killed the Mets the last few years. Even when they’re all healthy the ’06-present Mets have been unacceptably top-heavy teams. The star players have had to carry way too much below-average performance from the non-star starters and replacements. Getting crappier at one of the few positions where we had secured a useful, consistent, slightly-above-average guy is going backwards.
by anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In 2006, the Mets were fairly deep
They had career years from Endy Chavez, paul LoDuca, Jose Valentin, Pedro Feliciano, Aaron Heilman, and even Carlos Beltran. Endy Chavez was actually their 2nd most valuable outfielder last year.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
career years, though
That’s kind of exactly what I mean, actually. The ‘06 team seemed deep enough, but only because they hit the jackpot on numerous gambles at once, getting way above the performance you’d ever have predicted from guys like Valentin and Chavez.
by anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, we're in agreement
I’m just saying look what a little depth could do to this team. The 2006 team didn’t even have any decent corner outfielders. Under the Minaya reign, Ryan Church has been our best corner outfielder.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is beginning to happen with Murphy too
Daniel Murphy MEANZ BINZNASS last season and early April, but a few glaring defensive gaffes in left field and a prolonged slump now have those same people saying that “Murphy is not the answer” and that he needs to be sent down or traded. I think most people here agree (don’t know about Chickendirt) that he shouldn’t have been given the left field job prior to the season given his questionable minor league history (one good minor league season, low BABIPs, questionable power), but to get rid of him? He’s been unlucky with a .265 BABIP, but his ZIPS projection calls for a .320 wOBA (but only a .286 BABIP), so a league average or above hitter the rest of the season isn’t out of the question. So an average major league hitter who can play a decent-to-good outfield and first base (or god forbid have him practice 2B in AAA) is a player this team can’t use? Because he’s been a “disaster” so far means that he shouldn’t be on the roster? So ‘Our Penis’ Reyes can make that prorated $410K instead?
by All Shook Down on Jul 11, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing that needs to be pointed out relentlessly...
Is that Francoeur just seems straight up dumb. Just from his comments, you can tell he’s deeply incurious, that his talent got him to where he is and that he never took the time to learn things. In this way, he may be more physically talented than Murphy, but you know that Murphy is going to study and work his ass off (possibly to his detriment, but that’s another story). I don’t expect D-Wright to be sitting down with Foucault at night, but you can tell in the way that he speaks, his manner of presenting himself, etc. that he has something going on upstairs. I actually feel this way about pretty much all of the Mets—Reyes is no genius but he’s smart, Delgado is clearly smart, Maine always strikes me as a bright guy…Maybe only Opie and like maybe JJ Putz don’t seem all that smart to me.
by DonGately on Jul 11, 2009 4:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I actually think this is one argument that Francoeur’s career might peak very early. In order for an athletically talented player to build those “old player skills” — selectivity, making adjustments at the plate, smart baserunning, that kind of thing — he needs to be paying careful attention to the game, thinking through all your at-bats. Frenchy is probably too much of a dumbass to do that kind of thing even when it would benefit him.
by anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maine actually seems fairly brilliant
He was a physics major at UNC. Physics, some say, is harder than pimpin’. Though pimpin is hard too, which must be why John Maine hangs out with Wright. Delgado seems to be of exceptional intelligence as well.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maine often finishes the NYT Crossword, which is really friggin’ hard. Reyes needed a translator in 2003, but when you hear him speak now you would never think he was an ESL guy.
by All Shook Down on Jul 11, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our lovely lineup tonight...
Pagan, cf
Castillo, 2b
Wright, 3b
Sheffield, lf
Francoeur, rf
Murphy, 1b
Santos, c
Cora, ss
Santana, lhp
Ugh…why the hell is francoeur 5th?
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 11, 2009 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Predictions:
Murphy gets on base 2 or more times, scores 0 runs
Pagan gets on base 0 times
Francoeur LOB > 4
by anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Annie, get yer' swag!
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jul 11, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look on the Bright side
We have two “hit into the double play kings” on this team. Tatis and Castillo.
At least Tatis is not starting tonight.
I’d be fine with this lineup if Murphy was hitting 2nd and Francouer batting Sixth.
With Castillo batting second I’ll bet he hits into at least two double plays tonight.
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castillo has actually been good @ advancing runners this year...
and if you haven’t noticed he usually beats out the throw after the first out…maybe 2 fielder’s choices but I see no GIDPs.
you must be the token Francouer fan that has drifted here.
by RIPShea on Jul 11, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
last season he always GIDP
this season with better legs underneath him he hasn’t been so bad.
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
last season
he was hurt….. and I guess you can tell the difference in his play.
but yea last season Francouer had a lower BA lol
by RIPShea on Jul 11, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Castillo ended the season with more walks than Frenchy hits.
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting looking up that stat on line
Tatis 62 Games 172 AB 11 GIDP
Castillo 73 Games 242 AB 9 GIDP
Francoeur 82 Games 304 AB 10 GIDP.
Wonder where there is a stat that shows how many times these guys come to the plate with a man on first?
by Chickendirt on Jul 11, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Murphy batting 6th?
Didn’t he just have 2 hits last night while batting 3rd in the line-up?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jul 11, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add francoeur to that list
He is a GIDP machine, way worse than Castillo.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 11, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
...but not as bad as Tatis?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jul 11, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's now officially 2004 again
I’ve been trying to digest this over the last 24 hours but the only conclusion I can come to is that Omar is trying to recreate 2004: David Wright and a bunch of replacement level to below-average scrubs on the diamond. So now we have to trade Mejia, Holt and Havens for Freddy Sanchez, Doug Davis and Kevin Correia, respectively. Then play Argenis and Sanchez up the middle, Tatis at first, Murphy/Pagan/Francouer in the OF and Santos behind the plate. The grission and scrubitude would be off the charts! Who’s with me?
by Zwill on Jul 11, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh the HORROR!
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that what it would take to knock this regime out of power?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably.
But that would set the franchise back about five years.
by All Shook Down on Jul 11, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Petition the Wilpons to sell it!
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jul 11, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is
I consider this regime to include the Wilpons. Until the Wilpon family gets on board with a new approach (read: an analytical approach) as so many other ownerships have done over the last few years, there isn’t much hope that they’ll choose a new personnel department that has any idea how to properly build a ballclub.
So what would it take to convince the Wilpons to sell? I haven’t a clue; they just had a goldmine of a stadium built for them at minimal expense, they have one of the best TV situations in the league and a share of the richest and largest baseball market in the world. Even if their team is a massive failure on the field, they’re still highly profitable. They allegedly lost a lot of money with their Madoff association but that hasn’t seemed to phase them. I don’t know why they would want to sell right now or for the foreseeable future, meaning that we’re probably stuck with the leadership we’ve got for awhile
by Zwill on Jul 11, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Wasn’t it you who we once discussed how susceptible to presentation the Wilpons are. A great interview with someone with a more analytical approach could happen. Its just kind of arbitrary, a great analytical approach doesn’t necessarily mean the best presentation….but it doesn’t necessarily mean a bad one either.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 11, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
Mighta been the other Zwill?
Seriously, anything’s possible, I suppose. One thing I can guarantee is that Omar has at least 2009 and 2010 at the helm, seeing as his three-year extension doesn’t even start til next year.
by Zwill on Jul 11, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Naw, that was me.
They were woo’d by Art Howe.
by All Shook Down on Jul 12, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh my bad
Well the point (hopefully) might apply here
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Meddler on Jul 12, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember 2004.
Most evenings I had to turn the game off before it was over, because it was just too painful.
by SupT on Jul 11, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes there have been a lot of years like that
In my quarter-century on the planet, I can classify 92, 93, 96, 02, 03 and 04 as seasons that fit that general description. In 92/93 I was still too young to really care, not like you care as an adolescent. 96 was bad cause the expectations for Gen K were so high and the Yankees won for the first time in nearly 20 years, which made school an impossible minefield of shit talking. But 02-04 were the worst because the team had at least been respectable for the previous five years and I was smart enough to understand that the organization was making terrible mistakes with their personnel decisions.
This season is starting to remind me of 02. That season started with heralded reinforcements, namely Vaughn, Alomar, Burnitz and Astacio, and the club was actually in first for much of April and May. As late as the trading deadline, they were alive in the WC race but then the season went to shit and they lost 12 in a row (looked that up here).
The reason why I feel that this is starting to remind me of 02 is my general attitude towards the team. For the last few years and even the first two months of this season, I had an overall expectation of success with this group. My feeling was that despite the club’s collective flaws, eventually their talent would overcome and they would rise to the top of the standings. That seemed to be happening in mid-May when they ran off seven wins in a row and then took a two-game lead in the division.
But all that has happened since then – the injuries, the two stupid trades, the inane managing compounding the club’s issues … ALL that has happened since then has broken my enthusiasm for the club. I no longer expect success. I no longer look forward to watching the games. I expect failure and humiliation from this group. It’s exactly how I felt in July of 2002.
Yes, there will be games like tonight when Johan looks like an unstoppable force and maybe Beltran and Reyes will return and get back to their old routine. But right now I have an overwhelming feeling of dread about this team. I’m counting the days until the trading deadline and praying that no other useful players are given away. Or worse. I’m counting the days until the end of the season so we can start thinking about 2010. It’s just like 02.
by Zwill on Jul 11, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
I agree on all fronts, though 1996 wasn’t so bad because of all the offensive production from Gilkey, Johnson and Hundley. 2002 really sucked because Bobby Valentine ended up getting canned after the season and Steve Phillips was allowed to engineer an even worse team in 2003 before getting the axe in the middle of that season.
by All Shook Down on Jul 12, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
on WFAN
a caller was rating Jose Reyes using WAR. I was amazed
"Put it in the books. The Mets are the 2006 National League Eastern Divison champions"--Howie Rose
by firejerrynow on Jul 11, 2009 6:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WAR ftw!
"We have to find a way to play better, there's no doubt. Overall. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Offense, defense, pitching -- we have to find a way to play better. The reality of this is, coming here to Pittsburgh and being swept -- personally, I feel embarrassed." -- Carlos Beltran
by EMSfan9 on Jul 11, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What WAR?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jul 11, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant "What's War?"
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
by The Glider on Jul 11, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as a Braves I have to say thank you and hahahahaha this is great enjoy his arm and his loads of potential!
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 11, 2009 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Allow me to be the first to invite you never to post here again.
Participating in a conversation is great — drive-by trolling, not so much.
by anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry i am just overjoyed. I understand your frustration. seriously good luck with him
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 11, 2009 7:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, Francouer has talent
Maybe someone in the Met organization can give him a shot in the ass.
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jul 11, 2009 8:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's no Jermaine Dye, that's for sure
by James Kannengieser on Jul 12, 2009 4:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well thats true
Dye actually hits higher than .251.
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jul 12, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frenchy!!!!
He’s batting .500! Get ready to retire his number!
/snark
I guess on the plus side, even if he has an unsustainable hot streak to begin his Mets career, at least it won’t mean a superior player being shipped out the way it did with Omir Santos.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 11, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well
the superior player was already shipped out
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Jul 11, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right, it already happened
Nothing that can be done to change that.
But if you were like me (and every thinking Mets fan out there), you knew it was inevitable that Castro was going to be traded to make room for Santos and it drove you nuts.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 11, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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