Halladay Applesauce - Mets reject Blue Jay offer, Minaya and Manuel safe, 9 straight for Phillies, Manny and Mantle
by Joe Budd on Jul 21, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
in Applesauce
53 comments
Just when you thought they were out, they pull you back in. Not really because of the play on the field, but because of uncofirmed Jon Heyman reports of a rejected Halladay trade. There's much to say about the merits and drawbacks of the rumored trade, but at the very least, it gives us more to talk about than whether the Mets can get anything for Livan Hernandez.
Meet the Mets
Roy Halladay! Jon Heyman reported last night that Omar Minaya rejected a trade for the Toronto right hander that would have sent Fernando Martinez, Jon Niese, Ruben Tejada, and Bobby Parnell out of Queens. Andrew Beaton makes the case that the contract isn't worth one year of, at best, second place baseball. Meanwhile, Matt Cerrone is distracted by the shiny new name.
Surrounding this news came the story that Jerry Manuel and Omar Minaya received the vote of confidence from the Wilpons. Shockingly, this signal does not mean that they will stay.
Fernando Nieve's thigh tear will cost him six weeks on the DL. Jonathan Niese is likely to start on Saturday in his place. Rob Neyer says it's about time. In the meantime, New York called up Cory Sullivan.
The Daily Stache has a disturbing prediction on the health of Carlos Beltran.
Wilmer Flores hit his third home run of the season last night.
Where have you gone, Nelson Doubleday? We need you.
There's even talk now of Livan Hernandez playing first base. Ugh. I love the blogosphere.
The New York Observer profiles the Mets' great broadcasting trio.
Mets Geek takes a look at the promising pitching prospect Kyle Allen.
34 years ago yesterday, Joe Torre hit into an MLB record four double plays.
For those of you in Manhattan, be sure to check out tonight's Amazin' Tuesday at Two Boots Tavern.
There is going to be a Voltron movie. No word on Carlos Beltran's availability to play the lead.
Around the NL East
The Nationals are now 0-5 under Jim Riggleman.
Washington starting pitcher Scott Olsen will have surgery to repair a small tear in his left labrum.
Philadelphia won its 9th straight without Roy Halladay.
Ken Rosenthal argues that Philadelphia could easily move from Halladay to Cliff Lee, should their first choice fall through.
The Phillies might also be looking to solidify their bullpen; they are scouting Chad Qualls. Qualls would probably cost a quality starting pitching prospect.
Tommy Hanson struck out 11 Giants en route to an 11-3 Atlanta victory.
Following Florida's 3-2 victory over San Diego yesterday, the Marlins optioned (isn't that a really nice way of saying demoted?) Andrew Miller to Triple-A.
No clear signal yet telling us if the Marlins are buyers or sellers.
Around MLB
Sacrifice bunts are Communist.
Manny Ramirez passes Mantle and Jason Schmidt wins his comeback.
Tracy Ringolsby lists the five best fits for Roy Halladay. The Mets don't make the list because they are too stupid.
The Pirates beat the Brewers 8-5, ending a 17-game losing streak against Milwaukee.
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Keith Law
shot down the Halladay-Mets trade rumor. Said it was bogus.
Of COURSE there's going to be a Voltron movie.
Because, you know, why should anyone bother thinking up new ideas when there are old ideas that don’t require you to use your brain?
If people haven't checked out the Onion lately
all the content has a “bought by the Chinese” theme. It’s great.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
Yes.
That gives me an excuse to link to one of my all-time favorites:
Five Or Six Dudes Jump Out Of Nowhere And Just Start Whaling On This One Guy
BOULDER, CO–Shock and disbelief were the prevailing reactions Monday, when pizza-delivery guy Lyle Kelso, 24, reported to roommates that at around 2 or 3 a.m., he personally witnessed, like, five or six dudes suddenly jump out of freakin’ nowhere and just start totally whaling on this one guy.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jul 21, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
i miss T. Herman Zweibel
And as far as the whimpering clods who have the temerity to call themselves “readers” are concerned, I do not suppose I shall miss their ilk in the slightest. Why, just imagining their pallid, toothless faces fills me with such colossal rage that at this very moment my nurse-maid is administering to me a near-lethal dose of laudanum just so I may find the composure to reach the end of this missive.
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
The funniest Onion article ever
Was this one. “Liberty City Police Face Allegations Of Incompetence, Brutality.” Something about this just had me laughing hysterically throughout. This might be my favorite part.
Many blame the LCPD directly for the increase in criminal activity, citing the department’s lax procedure for arresting criminals, which involves taking 10 percent of the suspect’s money, confiscating his weapons, and simply releasing him from custody later that day. Outraged citizens say this is not enough, especially in a city where assault rifles can be found on factory roofs and grenade caches are located under the globe at the old World’s Fair site.
This is my favorite Onion headline
Entitled, “Fuck Everything, We’re Going to 5 Blades”
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930
Can I join the discussion
with my favorite??
(And it’s baseball-related. So, extra points.)
batting helmets. batting titles. obp.
Tony B is a Class Act, Part 73
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/2009/07/mets-6-nationals-2-spin-city.html
This incident could easily be overblown, and I’m not sure why it’s important that the assistant is an Ivy Leaguer, but has anyone ever had a nice thing to say about Bernazard?
I only think the Ivy Leaguer thing is important to show that Bernazard has no
respect for “non-ex-players” which is a widely disseminated rumor.
I want him out too
but only because his name sounds like a Pokemon.
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
About Keith Law
I read that tweet from Law last night, but it looks like everyone is still running with it as if Heyman had it right.. I didnt see it on ESPN’s main page that it was shot, anybody have another source that it the rumor was shot down?
I actually agree with Minaya
if he did in fact turn down this rumored trade. I might be the only one.
"I used to be legit. I was too legit. I was too legit to quit. but now I'm not legit. I'm unlegit. And for that reason, I must quit."
No I think that
a lot of people can see the reasons to not do it. I wouldve done it, but I certainly can see why someone wouldnt.
Im guessing that Omar’s reasons, if he did turn it down, are pretty stupid.
I'm not completely sure whether or not I do
But I think the Bleacher Report article is ridiculous.
A) The certainty with which the author pronounces that Halladay is “the best pitcher in baseball” isn’t really warranted.
B) F! didn’t “underachieve” with the Mets, he performed about as you’d expect a 20-year-old who’s been rushed to the major leagues to perform.
C) The analysis of Niese is similarly lazy, limited to W-L and ERA without even looking at K rate or BB rate, let alone anything more complex than that.
D) The fact that Wilmar [sic] Flores has drawn comparisons to Derek Jeter does not automatically make him awesome.
E) Overall, the package is hardly “practically nothing” as the author claims.
I don't like Bleacher Report stuff, generally.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
Matt cerrone doesn't understand baseball:
“…i feel like, because the lineup is so thin, that is when you sac bunt to score early, especially against a team like the Nationals… and they’re bunting with Luis Castillo… it’s not like he’s bunting with David Wright in an RBI situation…”
what a fuckng idiot!
I feel like
he shouldn’t be writing about baseball.
"I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually inverse in proportion to the price of the seats." - Bill Veeck
Watch Jon Niese get rocked on Saturday
And then we wouldnt be able to trade him for a bag of balls.
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jul 21, 2009 12:07 PM EDT reply actions
im going to that game on Saturday.
I might be the only Mets fan there.
"I used to be legit. I was too legit. I was too legit to quit. but now I'm not legit. I'm unlegit. And for that reason, I must quit."
Whats there to be optimistic about??
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jul 21, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Gee, I don't know.
The fact that he’s been dominant in AAA lately?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Because his stock is high at the current moment
Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jul 21, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
The Key to that trade is
Are we contenders in 2010 or not? With no Delgado, a sucking Perez, banged up Maine, Castillo a year older, no legit catcher etc., and Pelfrey a big “?” they are kind of playoff longshots and definitely not World Series contenders. By 2011, yeah maybe F. Martinez can help some, but I don’t know, he looked truly awful, and maybe even 3 years away still. He looks more like Carlos Gomez than Carlos Beltran that’s for sure. Yeah, Niese would hurt to lose, but you look at his minor league numbers: his hits to innings pitched show a future #3 type guy, nothing more. They’d still have Holt, Meijia, Beaualac, Matz, it’s not like they’d be out of pitching prospects. And guess what, they get to make more picks next year.
Halladay changes everything. He and Santana make them world series contenders. Now you have an awesome shot to win any playoff series you get into, just like the D’Backs in ’01 with Schilling and Johnson. This team has to get into the playoffs next year, Reyes and Wright will be 27, Beltran 33, Johan like 31 or 32. You cannot go into some rebuilding mode where you are afraid to acquire a talent like Halladay.
Well, who knows then...
Heyman is a pretty legit writer, I’d doubt he’d just make this up.
haven't you seen him shill for Boras any chance he gets?
He has no scruples; he’s an idiot who thinks Jim Rice belongs in the Hall of fame over Bert Blyleven
But Jim Rice was a feared hitter
and the only reason Blyleven has that many strikeouts is because he played so long, and he doesn’t even have 300 wins! Also guy like Jack Morris was dominant when it counted, but Blyleven wasn’t. That’s why Jim Rice and Jack Morris are better than Bert Blyleven, only an idiot would think other wise.
I’m pretty sure he voted Jack Morris* How anyone can justify it is beyond me, but then again Bill Mazerowski got in with his 25 WAR so…
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
300 wins is bogus sometimes, too.
See, e.g., Don Sutton. Hung around forever just to get 300 and a spot in the Hall, though he was never more than the 3d best pitcher on the team in his prime. Put it this way-did anyone ever say to a buddy, “Hey, let’s go to tonight’s game; Sutton’s pitching”? Clearly the answer is no. But Morris or Blyleven in their prime? Yeah, I can see that conversation happening.
by madisonmetsfan on Jul 21, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed
Although the longevity criteria counts, in Suttons case it should have been overshadowed by his lack of dominance (and not just talking K rates here, but as you suggest, Sutton was rarely more than a number 3, albeit on some good staffs). Blyleven was a better pitcher than Sutton, and not that Sutton was a slouch either
Blyleven and mazeroski
1. Blyleven was a great pitcher and better than Morris. His k rate was higher than Morris’s and his walk rate lower. Many of their career years overlapped.
Blyleven career k/bb per 9: 6.7 to 2.39.
Morris 5.83 to 3.27.
Playoffs: Blyleven 6.85 to 1.52 k/bb per 9, 5 and 1 with a 2.47 era (I know the hated w-l and era, but not bad shorthands).
Morris? His post-season record was 7-4 with a 3.80 era and 6.24-3.12 k/bb/9.
Morris pitched for better teams, and yes, he had a couple of very well-known world series starts.
Blyleven’s career era + is 118. Morris’s 105.
Blyleven pitched well for 2 world series winning teams. 1979 pirates and 1987 twins.
In october 1987 the Twins beat the Tigers in the playoffs. In game 2 Blyleven won and Morris lost. Blyleven went 7.1 7 3 3 1 6. Morris 8 6 6 6 3 7. Blyleven went on to win game 5 as well, beating Doyle Alexander.
The latter tidbit doesn’t mean all that much, but Blyleven actually pitched very well in the post-season and was clearly a step above Morris career-wise, and Morris was no slouch.
2. Bill James: “Bill mazeroski’s defensive statistics are probably the most impressive of any player at any position.”
Hmm. Well, he said it. Mazeroski’s career high in DPs was 161. Sandberg 126. Joe Morgan 106. Maz was above 100 dps 11 times. sandberg twice. Morgan twice. Maz’s career high in assists was 538. Sandberg beat that at 571, Morgan’s high was 440, but Maz was consistently very high. Maz’s career high in put outs waws 425, sandberg 353, etc. Maz was simply phenomenal at the doubleplay. Does his WAR account for that?
Maz also was not a great hitter. Not even close to Sandberg or Morgan. Only Morgan somewhat overlapped his career of those 2 but i chose some well known names. But he had a little power. Among the top 500 all time home run hitters. And Forbes Field suppressed power. He hit 93 road homers versus 45 at home. he had over 2,000 hits, among only 258 players to do so. yes, a longevity stat, but that counts for the Hall and gets tossed in with his other qualities.
He played on 2 world series winners, ’60 and ’71 Pirates. Famously hitting the world series game winning home run in 1960.
Given that his defense is almost universally recognized as one of the best if not the best ever at his position (and James seems to think he is), his offensive contributions seem sufficient, along with his series heroics and longevity, to earn him a spot.
of course
Bill james only ranked mazeroski 29th best 2b of all time, well behind Willie randolph, so maybe he doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall, but james named 10 guys as most undeserving for the hall (Jim Bottomley etc.) and maz was not one of them. But being best ever at turning the DP, maybe you deserve special entry for that no matter what the overall value to your team was, and maz still had a win share above 200.
I failz at sarcasm yet again
Although I though that last line should have cleared things up. What I wrote is what I’m pretty sure Heyman said about Blyleven vs. Morris. Obviously Blyleven is better than Morris and should be in the Hall
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
if it means anything
I got the sarcasm.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 21, 2009 11:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thank you
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
You didn't fail sarcasm
But i obviously did.
In any event, it was real fun for me at least to compare them again head to head.
BTW
Your last line makes it pretty clear that you didn’t think Morris desrved a vote. I didn’t read past the fold as it were.
But Mazeroski, I take it, you don’t think belongs. Maybe not. Even james only rated him 29th 2b of all time a few years back. I still would send him in for the stellar D and the world series. Looking back at that I have a new appreciation for Willie Randolph, ranked 17th all time by james. As a player that is.
July = 100 inaccurate trade rumors reported by Heyman
I don’t think he “makes stuff up,” but the guy’s track record is pretty awful. For every trade rumor that turns out to be correctly reported, there a couple of dozen that never come to pass. H
See, the "vote of confidence" thing is weird;
Everyone is like “Minaya and Manuel’s jobs are safe because of the vote of confidence” meanwhile in the NFL, its almost like the kiss of death. Also, I have a hard time remembering the last time a MLB ownership used the vote of confidence rhetoric. Not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing, I just can’t remember that situation.
To me, this “vote of confidence” means nothing and I still see a screnario where MInaya and Jerry get fired that’s not in my imagination.
I'm pretty sure Willie got a vote of confidence last year as well, shortly before a certain western road trip.
I can dream, can’t I?
So, if Omar and Jerry get the axe
Can I be happy about ownership using a bad process to come to a good result?
Vote of confidence =
go on a winning streak now or you’re gone.
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
Managers who've received public votes of confidence in the last several weeks:
1. Manny Acta
2. Trey Hillman
3. Eric Wedge
4. Jerry Manuel
Acta’s already been canned and the other three are in very precarious situations. Wedge has been in Cleveland for nearly seven seasons and only two of those were of the winning variety so it’s not surprising that he’s on the way out. Hillman’s only had 253 games on the job in a dreadful situation but the expectations for the Royals this season were puzzlingly high as several media outlets predicted that they would be in contention despite their atrocious lineup. That, coupled with his extremely questionable decision-making (well documented by Rany, Rob and Joe Pos), suggests that he has earned his dismissal.
Manuel has a few advantages over the other three in that he’s only been with the club for 185 games and has a winning record with the Mets, which he also had in his previous stint with the Pale Hose. Furthermore, the injuries are at least a tangible excuse for this team’s performance, even if we realize that his managerial tendencies have exacerbated the situation. His frequent yapping to the press, which has bordered on insubordination, won’t help his cause but my gut feeling is that he’ll survive until at least the end of the season.
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