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Omar Minaya Has To Go

 

In his opening press conference with the Mets, Omar Minaya immediately expressed a desire to make the team "younger and more athletic." In his ad-hoc press conference with the Mets yesterday, Minaya said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Were' investigating it with an investigation...We're going to investigate it....investigaty investigations."

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. This season, as the Mets have fallen out of contention, calls for Omar Minaya's firing have expectantly increased. In fact, the rumblings were present before the team's slide, as the Oliver Perez contract looked like a bust from the get-go. The calls for Minaya's job, however, are hardly universal, as his defenders cite the bad luck with injuries. So the debate goes:

  • "Fire omAr!!"
  • "No, it's not his fault, too many injuries."
  • "He should have better backups."
  • "No team can lose three of their best hitters and win."

And that's where it ends. The Minaya-defenders often come out of this argument looking more rational, because the fire-Omar position boils down to "we're losing." The main argument defending Minaya, "no team can lose that many players and be good," often goes unchallenged. Which is a shame, since it's wrong. The Boston Red Sox play in the A.L. East and have a lower payroll than the Mets. They have a well above-average defense, offense, and pitching staff. If the Red Sox were to lose David Ortiz, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury, Tim Wakefield, and Hideki Okajima and be thrown into the N.L. East, they'd beat the Phillies by at least five games. Their pitching staff would still be about 80 runs better than the Phillies, while their offense would only be marginally downgraded by slotting Adam LaRoche, Lars Anderson, Rocco Baldelli, and Jed Lowrie in for the injured position players. They have so much pitching depth, they could lose Dice-K, Penny, and Wakefield and have a better rotation the next morning. The Mets, for the same payroll, have one of the the worst rotations in the league. The only (non-fictional) injury to that rotation this season has been John Maine, a player who could barely throw the ball before spring training opened.

Star-divide

That's why the injury responsibility debate is a red-herring. Yes, the Mets would be in contention without those injuries. I do not deny that. Still, they'd only be in contention because they have enough great players to outweigh otherwise shoddy roster construction in a weak division. This season has not changed my opinion of Omar Minaya, it's validated it. The same people who once crooned for the Oliver Perez signing are printing "Fire Omar" T-Shirts because a giant spotlight has been cast on the rest of the roster. The Mets have been successful because they have four of the best players in the National League all playing premium positions, half of whom Minaya acquired. As somewhat of a side note, that's why it's always hard to compare the Mets' injury situation to other teams. No single other team has their three best position players at premium defensive positions. If the Mets didn't dump their garbage at first and in left, they would run away with this division every year.

Which is the main problem: Omar Minaya simply has not put enough talent on the field to make the Mets a championship organization. They can make the playoffs. Every year, there's a good shot. But they don't, and that's because he's wasted too much money and left too many holes in the roster every year. The Phillies never acquired a Johan Santana, they didn't have to. They just sat there and waited for the Mets to get worse on their way to the title. It's funny, because I used to think finding complementary players was Minaya's strength, because he continually struck gold (mostly in the bullpen) with every little trade he made in 2006. From that article:

It may be luck, it may be skill. It may be the result of a team with money taking good calculated risks. Whatever it is, Minaya's had it this year.

Turns out it was luck. The strength of the 2006 Mets, their bullpen, was made of good, not great, relievers who had career years. Such is the nature of the bullpen; in such small sample sizes, it's basically a coin flip between Mota-2006 and Mota-2007. That's why smart teams fill their bullpen with players with skills, namely high strikeout rates, that avoid the luck element of balls in play. David Aardsma isn't some lucky fluke that has become a shutdown closer out of the blue. He's got great skills, and is a guy USSMariner identified as a potentially good reliever for the M's last year. The last two pitchers with such skills in the Mets organization? Heath Bell and Billy Wagner. One got a big contract, the other was given away. Instead of investing in pitchers like Bell, who miss bats, the Mets threw a bunch of money at the now-infamous Mota and Scott Schoeneweis, who's only skill is being left-handed. The Mets didn't realize how lucky they were on many counts that year, with Beltran's career year, LoDuca's fluky BABIP-inflated average, and Jose Valentin's existence. None of those things, including the performance of their entire bullpen, could be expected to return the next year, but they sat there like next season started with a re-do of Game 7.

This inability to construct a good bullpen and bench has led to another conclusion I was previously averse to: it's nearly impossible for a General Manager that shuns sabremetrics to be successful in today's game. The emphasis on smart money management, coupled with the rise of young, underpaid superstars, has left extremely well-managed small-market teams like the Rays in too good a position. This point is NOT some trite stats vs. scouts argument, because obviously the Rays would be much worse off without the guys who take a radar gun down to Vanderbilt to watch David Price. Simply put, people who consider themselves scouts, and oppose sabremetrics, should not be put in charge of the asset management elements of a team (i.e. the position of General Manager). Besides Minaya, I would say Bill Smith of the Twins is a great example of this principle. The Twins are successful because they drafted a slew of good pitchers and Joe Mauer. Still, Bill Smith's tenure as GM has been mixed because he hasn't properly gotten maximum value for his money, trading Johan Santana, extending Jason Kubel, trading for Delmon Young, among other questionable moves.

I think Omar Minaya is a good scout, who knows how to get "his guy". That's proven by the acquisitions of Francisco Rodriguez, Carlos Beltran, and Johan Santana. Still, no one with a reasonable grip on advanced fielding metrics would throw $4 million this offseason at Alex Cora, Cory Sullivan, and Rob Mackowiak. That's Dayton Moore, "I can see who can field," territory of roster mismanagement. That's why people are right the Mets shouldn't be this bad with this amount of money, why the Buffalo Bisons are so freaking awful. The Mets build depth, useless, counterproductive depth. Ramon Martinez and Angel Berroa will only make your team worse, there are better players out there making league minimum. Good GMs simply don't employ these types of players, at the risk they somehow have to use them.

That being said, I don't blame Omar Minaya for not having enough prospects to fill in for this season's injuries. Few teams can just call up top prospects for a bunch of positions they actually had blocked anyway. The two players the Mets could have most used this season, Carlos Gomez and Mike Carp, were traded with the intention of making the big league roster better. I think Minaya's doing a good job with the farm, despite his foolish reluctance to bust slot in the draft. When he does get a first-round pick, he hits, and when he hands out a big bonus to an international free-agent, they more often than not work out. That's why I think it's ludicrous the Mets are looking to make the scouting department a scapegoat this season (really, no medical staff?). Sorry John Harper, you missed the whole point, Mejia and Holt are great.

Instead, I think the larger problem, and my second big criticism of Minaya, is that he lacks a coherent plan. I don't mean Minaya's plan is just to sign big free agents and trade the farm, despite what that one anonymous scout assigned to Buffalo has been telling all the Mets beat writers. No, Minaya lacks coherent plans to build a complete team, which relates to the idea of complementary players discussed above. If I could condense this entire critique down to one word it would be "myopic." In 2008, Minaya focused on starting pitching and got Santana, leaving the bullpen an open wound. This offseason, it was all-bullpen all-the time and the Mets fielded their worst starting rotation in recent memory. Tim Redding and Livan Hernandez are the Ramon Martinez and Angel Berroa of the starting rotation. They don't eat innings, they cancel out Johan's contributions. The Mets rotation, despite featuring Johan Santana, are 23.8 runs below the average staff, somehow worse than a team that has Joe Blanton, Chan Ho Park, and Jamie Moyer.

The most annoying part of this offseason, indeed, was Minaya's insistence that they couldn't pursue outfielders because "they were working on their pitching." Coming from a team that "brainstormed" Francoeur-for-Church, that excuse just rings pathetic. Hey Mr. Wilpon, there are 100,000 Mets fans on the internet everyday who fix your bullpen AND lineup during their lunchbreak, and they do it for free (albeit with varying levels of success).

Before this season, I thought the Mets could win, but only in spite of what Minaya had done. The most positive move he had made was signing Gary Sheffield, a guy who even Gary Sheffield thought would be a pinch-hitter. Alas, Sheffield became the one player holding the Mets together, not because he is really that good, but because the "plan" in left was one Daniel Murphy, who had modest success in AA and a fluky BABIP in the majors the year before. Just to prove hindsight isn't 20-20, I humbly submit that I had these same qualms before the season, including Oliver Perez possibly exploding, the core getting injured, Maine's arm falling off, and Murphy being bad. The difference between my optimism then and my apathy now is all that bad stuff happened, and everyone gets to watch those holes in the roster magnified times 100.

The in-season management has only exacerbated the problem. The Santos-trade, the Francoeur-trade, and the release of Darren O'Day (has a better tRA in the American League than K-Rod has on the Mets right now), have been plain stupid. If Minaya's saving grace is identifying talent, I'm worried.

Amidst all this Bernazard craziness, Peter Gammons said something interesting yesterday about Tony B. undermining Minaya by both having a stronger relationship with Wilpon and by being the architect of the laughable minor-league depth. I'm not sure whether that reflects better or worse on Omar, but either way it suggests he's losing control of the team. I'm starting a campaign. It's not "FIRE OMAR." It's "Fire Bernazard, demote Minaya." The biggest defense of Minaya is that he brought the team out of obscurity, which is partially true. But if this season has taught us anything, it's that Steve Phillips' baseball intellect can make anyone look good. The Mets need a Chris Antonini or a Neal Huntington, a young dynamic leader who understands the finer points of player value to finish off the job Minaya started.

Omar Minaya is the scout who discovered Jose Reyes, not the General Manager who is going to put a ring on his finger.

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Where is our Andrew Friedman?

The Rays can find a quality President and GM who are young educated men to run their operation with a plan, and all we can get is Omar, Tony, and Jeff? Maybe hiring based on talent would help. BTW – SVP of baseball operations for the Rays is Gerry Hunsicker – remember him?

by rcfriedberg on Jul 23, 2009 6:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This team needs to be Kim Ng'ed as soon as possible.

I’d be more excited about an Omar firing if I didn’t think the Wilpons would hire someone worse.

by OlStubbleBeard on Jul 23, 2009 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Andrew Friedman wouldn't be in my top ten for potential replacements.

Sure they have a great system right now, but they were absolutely terrible for years. BJ Upton, Josh Hamilton, Delmon Young, and David Price were all no-brainers. Even Omar would have drafted those guys. Friedman managed to flip Young for Garza while he still had value, but he’s made mistakes too. Keeping Sonnenstine over Jackson was pretty questionable at the time, and giving away Jason Hammel wasn’t exactly genius. His bullpen is a decent collection of cheap arms, built fairly well. I have to wonder, however, if that’s more a product of just not having the money available to build it a different way. He doesn’t trade away young talent, but he really doesn’t have the ability to take on any payroll. Would this be the case if he had 140 million to toss around? I’d rather see Wilpon target somebody that has experience in at least a mid-sized market…the situations in NY and Tampa are as close to polar opposites as you can get.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know the Wilpons wouldn't hire a young GM

who knew how to run a team. They’re just too conservative (I’m not talking politics) to do it. I live in New England, and I remember how pissed Red Sox fans got when they announced they’d hired Bill James, and then that they were going to use the closer by committee.

"Put it in the books. The Mets are the 2006 National League Eastern Divison champions"--Howie Rose

by firejerrynow on Jul 23, 2009 7:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for this Sam

Omar is terrible.

The O’Day move and the moving Figueroa up and down have really been the moves to me that show Omar cannot be an effective GM.

Omar has been a GM since 2002 and he still does not understand the basic tenants of roster construction. Its not even that O’Day or Figueroa are the end-all be-all of this organization, but they’re useful pieces that Minaya gave away (O’Day) for no reason or left fully exposed to being given away (Figueroa) for no reason. In addition to that he’s put a terrible manager in a position to constantly fail by leaving him short-handed for days (weeks?) on end by not effectively managing his injuries.

by mets81 on Jul 23, 2009 7:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed...Omar is terrible

I have a hard time faulting him for O’Day though. The bullpen didn’t appear to be an issue when he was moved, and being a rule 5 guy we couldn’t send him to the minors(could have, but he’d never clear waivers). The fact that he recognized O’Day’s ability when he was left exposed is a positive, but his performance on the field didn’t justify making him untouchable.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely

Especially considering how strong our bullpen was at the time.

by TheBigStapler on Jul 23, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point was that he could've made other moves that didn't involve exposing O'Day

For Example: he couldve sent Parnell (who wasn’t pitching very much yet) down with no repurcussions. There’s a reason that a guy like Heath Bell wore out the plane from NY to Norfolk, you need to have guys like that to minimize the organization damage done when you make a roster move. Omar’s roster moves always seem to maximize organizational shakeup, you want to minimize it.

by mets81 on Jul 23, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good piece, Sam

although I’m not so sure how much I wanted to read it after watching last night’s crap-fest.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 23, 2009 8:18 AM EDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Sam Page for GM!

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Jul 23, 2009 8:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

BRAVO !

" This offseason, it was all-bullpen all-the time and the Mets fielded their worst starting rotation in recent memory. Tim Redding and Livan Hernandez are the Ramon Martinez and Angel Berroa of the starting rotation. They don’t eat innings, they cancel out Johan’s contributions. "

by fxcarden on Jul 23, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow Sam

you totally rocked Matt Cerrone’s face off that NYT Q&A. Your prescience is pretty depressing now.

by dtro on Jul 23, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yea.

How much of a moron does Cerrone look like after reading that piece?

by andy.ss80 on Jul 23, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slow, building, Hoosiers-esque clap.

Coherent, well-reasoned, and thorough.

by dontstopbelieving on Jul 23, 2009 9:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ditto

I am standing in my cube and giving a golf clap.

by SQUAD on Jul 23, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, you know, we're going to investigate it

Also, you know, I’ve been in this town a long time, if you know what I’m saying.

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!

by kingcritical on Jul 23, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Omar should go?? maybe...

Omar in my opinion is letting the important things go under the rug. Things that are destroying this team like letting people he has in place bad mouth and back stab the managers (willie) and then believes him. Tony Benazard should have been fired last year for spreading bad rumors about willie causing the team to choose sides. The Mets have to get healthy NOW!!!! RIGHT NOW!!!! if the gonna have a chance to get to the playoffs this year. PLAYOFFS?? what the ug Don’t talk About playoffs are you KIDDING ME PLAYOFFS????

Bigtimemetsfan

by longtimemetfan on Jul 23, 2009 9:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good one Sam

You rightly point out that Minaya isn’t so much a moron as an anachronism. Tim Marchman said it best on his blog Improve Conditions in a post I wish to heaven I could find. Minaya constructed the Mets like an NBA team; you can win with three stars and three above replacement level players even if the rest are grissiony scrubs.

The game was already passing Minaya when he was hired. The market for talent used to be inefficient in particular ways he exploited well. Then the market changed in ways that de-emphasized his strengths in scouting. Scouting, as you point out, is no less important than it’s ever been. It’s just that teams are better at it now, so it doesn’t distinguish like it used to.

The Francoeur deal is a microcosm. For Minaya, Frenchy is a classic gamble on upside, and thus a decent gamble. It’s not idiotic given his worldview. Advanced metrics, as we all know, tell us that Frenchy is a bad (if not terribly expensive) gamble. Minaya’s not going to change his worldview. He’s just gotta go.

The big issue now is whether the Wilpons are ready to make a change?

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Jul 23, 2009 9:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Fantastic piece

Great job Sam. I also hope that the Mets fire Omar Minaya, but do we have any confidence that the Wilpons hire a competent GM to replace him? They’ll probably hire an African American or Latino guy who isn’t qualified to be GM. They are obsessed with this whole idea of affirmative action. Either way, they’ll probably end up hiring someone with smallball ideas. I am not confident.

by Salz on Jul 23, 2009 10:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

can I get an "amen"?
Omar Minaya is the scout who discovered Jose Reyes, not the General Manager who is going to put a ring on his finger.

Bingo. The guy is a scout, and should be made head scout while someone else takes the GM position.

I want Omar to continue to get us the Meijas and Holts and Nieses and F-Marts, while someone else makes the kind of trades that Omar did (by luck, apparently) in 2006. And yes, Chris Antonini would be a good start.

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 23, 2009 10:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

minor quibble

Laroche isn’t a great fielder (and when i suggested him as a possible trade target most folks groaned), and he and Lars play 1st, Lowrie I like but not a great shortstop and has been injured, baldelli has constantly been injured or sick…not sure how they’d hold up, as a good fielding team at least, with that line-up.

And they have great pitching depth, although Buchholz hasn’t been awesome in the majors (and if the mets would just give some of their minor league picthing depth a shot), Bowden is a little overrated, etc.

But yes, indeed, Boston is a very well run organization and can withstand a slew of injuries.

I agree overall, Omar has made some good moves and the injuries are a drag, but he hasn’t done enough with what he has.

The shame of it is next year the mets would have been much more able to withstand this kind of injury run, as their prospects would all be more advanced. They now have depth but it would just be too rushed.

Fernando Martinez a year older. Holt and Mejia in AAA. Niese turning into an old man in Buffalo. tejada in AAA at 20. Thole in AAA. Ike Davis. Havens in AA and if healthy might have been ready.

And one last minor quibble. I know it is foisting results over process with 20/20 hindsight, but signing Kubel was a move that was questioned by some, but not much of a questionable move. At least, the criticism was overblown. Many thought so at the time, so it isn’t6 just Monday morning quarterbacking it.

Sure, dave cameron at fangraphs slagged it, as did some others. John Sickels defended it, however, and thought he may be due for a breakout.

And seriously, he was signed for $7.2 million over 2 years with an option for $5, I believe. Per fangraphs he has already “earned” 8.2 million this year thus far. So he has more than earned the 2-year contract in half a season

He may be a little lucky, may be a little over his head. But a breakout wasn’t totally unexpected. He lit up the minors before getting a really bad knee injury. He had been ok in the majors, not great, but was still fairly young. Sure, he is a platoon DH. But he has still been worth that deal. Which a LOT of people thought might be the case. A completely worthwhile roll of the dice that hit.

WAR isn’t that predictive, and Cameron over-relies on it (he defended SD giving Giles a ton of money-which wasn’t necessarily a bad idea but turned out awful, slagged giving Kubel a modest sum, etc.). And pace our discussion of Fred Lewis yesterday. 2.3 WAR last year, .3 this year, which frankly I don’t even think could be true for a guy who is batting .243/.329/.376 striking out in 30% of his at-bats, but i don’t confess to know how many games he is winning with his must-be-awesome defense.

The GM is also responsible for the support people he hires, but I think Omar must be getting some bad advice on that score. Pre-Omar, but Peterson didn’t like kazmir? And he didn’t get along with Bell. Not really trying to defend Omar here, but it seems like with pitchers the Mets had some horrible misjudgments and some arrested development (Pelfrey) with Peterson.

Anyway, excuse the tangent and the quibbles. Very nice piece. Very persuasive on the whole (I am just a nitpicking on some pet issues really).

by wobatus on Jul 23, 2009 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I actually agree about Kubel/WAR.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jul 23, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bell killed it in the minor leagues

Screw supporting the people he hires: coaches/managers better be on board with real talent or gtfo. Real talk.

by All Shook Down on Jul 23, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

I agree. But my point ws not that Peterson wasn’t on board but that maybe he gave Omar a bad take on bell. Stupid, of course, since you are right, that shouldn’t sway Omar. Should have been clear that Bell was good.

by wobatus on Jul 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this all reminds me of other perpetrater investigations

has OJ found the killer in his investigation yet?

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Jul 23, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

the o'day move was idiocy

and still makes me mad – it was only one start that Pelfrey missed (which the Mets lost anyway) – sure O’Day hadn’t been amazing for the Mets, but his friend had just been killed in a car crash, he was good in spring training, and was useful for LAA before he was injured last year, so clearly should have been kept around. Stokes should have made a spot start, or failing that Parnell (and others) had options. Casey Fossum, his replacement, lasted about one awful appearance, and then we’ve seen a parade of useless bullpen arms come up and down from AAA.

Omar’s biggest strength, I would say, is finding washed up old veterans and getting one last (usually cheap) year out of them (Valentin, Franco, Anderson, El Duque, Alou, Tatis, Sheffield etc). His biggest weakness is thinking they will repeat their indian summer season and signing them to horrible 2 year contracts when they then proceed to suck/hang out on the DL). In general this favouring of Veterans over youth is one reason why the Mets are not going to win under Minaya, unless he changes his ways asap.

by -ben- on Jul 23, 2009 11:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Calling Figgy up for that start was perfectly acceptable,

although I question why he was DFA’d afterwards. I don’t think this would be a legitimate gripe if Figgy had been moved to the pen afterwards. At that time, I think the fanbase would have rioted if Parnell had been sent down, he was missing bats and pitching very well. He splits versus lefties were pretty awful for his career when the move was made, he and stokes were probably the two most logical candidates to be moved. In retrospect it looks like a bad move, but it was one that looked acceptable at the time.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't agree

but i’m biased – i like the rule five draft (free players! and a sign that the organisation can spot talent that someone else missed) and watching side-arm/submarine pitchers so was excited to see O’Day, and would’ve like to have seen him kept around (he was worth 0.3 WAR through 41 IP in 2008, and 0.7 WAR through 2009, FWIW). I also don’t have much time for Figgy, and don’t enjoy watching him pitch (I was at that game). A spot start from Stokes or using Parnell’s options would’ve made more long term sense. A minor Omar error, but an error none the less.

by -ben- on Jul 23, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rule 5 guys are a unique situation...

In most cases they still need more seasoning (O’day certainly appeared to fit that bill), but they don’t have the option to go to the minors. He’s still can’t get lefties out (.341 OBP, .909 OPS), and I really think the Mets have plenty of righties that can’t get lefties out. I like the fact that Omar took a chance on O’day and Cherry…good gamble. He really didn’t do enough in his time here (I realize there were unique circumstances) or in his time in LA to expect him to be an upgrade to Parnell/Green/Stokes. If he was left handed, it would be different, but his numbers indicate he’s more of a ROOGY.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tony B. for GM! Forget Bobblehead Night at the stadium.

Fight Club in the Player Parking Lot after every game! Latino Salsa Dancing at Carlos Delgado’s house! Dunk tank the Ivy Leaguer every other Thursday!

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.

by AnthonyR on Jul 23, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

The O'Day mention at the end really twisted the knife home

I’d almost forgotten he’s been awesome for Texas. Thanks for that reminder. I was already dead on the ground and twitching, but then you put me out of my misery.

by David G on Jul 23, 2009 12:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

one question: about the rays

shouldn’t we wait to anoint the rays as the picture of a well-managed team until they are forced to ‘weather’ a decade or so of competing and thus don’t have a pileup of excellent draft picks in their system reaped from eons of failure? Sure they still had to pick ‘em right, but isn’t there an argument to be made that they are enjoying the benefit of sucking for so long in terms of drafting position? I don’t know when their current management team came into power or any of the specifics, but this should at least be considered. A team like Minny or Atlanta etc indeed seem like better examples of good management—teams with relatively limited resources that consistently compete. What role do advanced stats in Atlanta’s organizational planning? And despite major expenditures of an embarrassing nature in their recent history, the Dodgers seem to have put the kind of team I’d like by letting their youth mature during a period of NL west weakness.

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Jul 23, 2009 12:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Stuart Sternberg

Rays owner, told a friend of mine he is leery of Bryce Harper. Gets Josh Hamilton makeup vibes. For what its worth.

by wobatus on Jul 23, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Meh I still think Friedman is great
What role do advanced stats in Atlanta’s organizational planning?

Well they did publish all those books about moneyball is wrong, but then went on to finally lose. Frank Wren cited FIP for why he got Vazquez.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jul 23, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really believe a major league GM needs to use both sabermetric analysis and traditional scouting.

Sabermetrics have alot of value when evaluating major leaguers, but I really don’t think they should be a major factor in judging high school kids and 16 year old prospects. Even looking at A ball from a strictly sabermetric point of view can be decieving, there is certainly still room for traditional scouting. At some point though, the GM has to recognize the importance of OBP, and get coach’s at every level that teach a patient approach.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

They go hand in hand, despite what Jon Heyman and a few others would have you believe. For a GM to be successful he has to use all facts and tools available to him for player evaluation. Ignoring scouting would be just as foolish as ignoring sabermetrics.

by James Kannengieser on Jul 23, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

My thoughts on the key difference: scouting and sabermetrics are both necessary to construct a well-run ballclub, probably about roughly in balance. I definitely would prefer great scouting for the evaluation of minor leaguers.

What is UNNECESSARY is the tripe spouted out by many sportswriters—the RBIs, the pitcher wins, the “heart,” “grit,” etc. My two peeves with this:

1. It discredits the scouting perspective—all too often, we think of the “scouting” mindset as one that embraces older, outdated statistics and ridiculous notions that cannot be understood, rather than one that looks at a player’s skills from the perspective of a highly-trained professional.
2. It offers the sportswriter an aura of knowledge that he/she simply cannot have—how can a writer possibly be aware of a way to measure “grit” or “toughness” or any of those things? Regardless of whether or not they DO exist and do have an impact, I am entirely unconvinced that anyone can actually detect or measure them accurately.

by sjohnson125 on Jul 23, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dayton Moore

“I can see who can field.”

Like Alton Benes:

“I don’t need a weatherman to tell me it’s rainin’. I just stick my head out da winda.”

by wobatus on Jul 23, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't have a big issue with GM's not paying any attention to UZR

It’s a nice enough metric, but it certainly isn’t as reliable as some offensive evaluations. If Dayton was a big believer in using sabermetrics to evaluate batters, I really doubt many of us would think twice about that comment.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great Alton Benes reference

“We had a funny guy in Korea. He was killed. Nothing funny about that!”

by James Kannengieser on Jul 23, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tailgunner.

Blew his brains out all over the Pacific.

or my favorite

“I’ll have a scotch, with PLENTY of ice.”

by wobatus on Jul 23, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our minor league system has been in need of an overhaul for years

The only real players of value to come out of it in the last ten years are Reyes, Wright and Kazmir who was shipped off to Tampa Bay.

by Chickendirt on Jul 23, 2009 12:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Heath Bell, Mike Jacobs, Jesus Flores,

Lindstrom, Milledge, Bannister, Gomez, Keppinger, Tyler Yates, Joe Smith…those guys are just a few off the top of my head in the Minaya era. These guys may not be stars, but they are all “players of value”. The system doesn’t need an overhaul as much as the Mets need to re-think their valuation of players. There is plenty of value there, Minaya doesn’t seem to believe anything short of superstars are acceptable though.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Bannister? He’s got a 4.58 ERA. This season it’s a 3.76 and the year before 5.76. He’s a 4th starter at best.

Isn’t Gomez wallowing in Minnesota right now? He’s batting under .250 and has an OBP under .300. He’s a lot like the other scrubs we have in the line up right now.

This is the problem with the Mets system. It produces these fringe sub par major legue talent players that have a tough time stcking in the majors for more than 5-7 years. And they are guys everyone looks to get rid of for something better.

A lot of players in our system are overhyped crap. Think Jay Peyton and Alex Ochoa.

Since Edgardo Alfonso left this team has had a massive hole the size of the grand canyon at second base. In all this time our system has not been able to produce one second basemen that can fill that hole?

Since Doc Gooden, and we are now going back to about 1984, this system has not produced one Ace starting pitcher. NOT ONE!!!! In 26 years!!!!

by Chickendirt on Jul 23, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're valuing guys like Minaya...

Your post claims that Reyes, Wright, and Kazmir are the only players of value to come out of this system. You don’t need to be a superstar to have “value”. That’s one of the major things that Minaya doesn’t seem to understand. Guys like Church that don’t have name value don’t seem to matter to Omar. Guys like Gomez, Jacobs, Keppinger, Flores, and Bannister aren’t superstars…but do you honestly think we wouldn’t be better if they were on the field last night? The fact that a player isn’t in the top 5 in the majors at his position doesn’t mean he has no value. If we had a GM that understood this, we’d be in a different position today than we are.

As an aside, I’d refrain from using ERA as your reasoning that a player sucks…you’ll get torn apart here.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bannister is not even in the top 20 at what he does

He’s a horrible pitcher. What we have in Perez, and Hernandez are much worse but that doesn’t make Bannister the savior cause he’s better at what he does. He’s still a cog in a sub .500 pitching staff.

And his ERA is reliable evaluation of what a shitty pitcher he is.

Gomez is the same crap we have on the field right now. He’s no better than a lot of the fodder in the lineup.

by Chickendirt on Jul 23, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is the problem with your logic...

You assume that Bannister has no value because he’s not among the top 20 starters in the majors. Ask yourself this…Would the Mets be a better team if he was starting in place of Ollie? What about Livan? What if he took Redding’s starts? Thats value. Jon Niese may not be Johan, but is he a better option than the guys mentioned above? One of Omars biggest issues is his failure to recognize that guys like this are valuable, he practically gives them away and replaces them with the Jeff Francoeur’s and Angel Berroa’s of the world.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What you are offering is a false choice

I’ve already addressed that. There are a ton of pitchers in this game better the Redding, Hernandez Perez etc. Fact is that even with Bannister the staff may be better but it would still suck major ass.

The choice between having Bannister or those other guys still results in a sub .500 team. Instead of losing by 6 runs you lose by three.

by Chickendirt on Jul 23, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With the exception of Niese,

none of those options play for the Mets. Most other organizations have several of these types of players waiting around. How many organizations are full of homegrown superstars? Teams that spend big in free agency are going to have less than most. It’s the inability to produce decent players to round out the roster that seperates the Mets from the rest of the league.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

None of those *type* of options

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're fighting your own logic

you argue that having bannister as your number 4 starter results in a sub .500 team, well what do think the mets are now?
the point of a number 4 starter is to gobble innings and put the team in a position to win, if the team loses by 3 instead of losing by 6 as you argue, well then that’s 3 runs less that the team’s offense needs to overcome.

that’s the value of having a marginally better option in a back of the rotation guy.

by cntrlalt on Jul 23, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you missed where I'm arguing from

What I am saying is that our farm system rarely ever produces players of quality. That’s basic crux of my arguement. You could probably go through most teams in this league and find that they’ve produced better pitchers and better hitters over the years than the Mets. A lot of our “can’t miss” guys wind up as busts.

And as far as Bannister and Perez go, I really don’t see how one is reallly all that much better than the other. I think Bannister may walk fewer but Bannister has allowed more Er and Runs in 07 and 08.

I think the only difference would be maybe the Mets have 1 or 2 more wins this year. It’s still a sub .500 mess and neither get you any closer to a ring. Bannister was the MUCH WORSE pitcher last season than Ollie.

You’re arguing here what really amounts to false choice that makes very little difference. And Bannister doesn’t exactly give his team “a chance to win” either.

by Chickendirt on Jul 23, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PELFREYPELFREYPELFREY

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jul 23, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the definition of quality

is what we’re really disagreeing on. your argument is kind of like that old south park episode where they have to vote between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. you’re saying that between 2 crappy choices there’s no answer.

i think what we’re trying to argue is that while both players aren’t great, the nature of a back of the rotation guy is to just be marginally better than someone else, and in that regard you can argue whether you’d want player A or player B.

the statement that the mets don’t produce “quality” players depends on what you feel quality is, and the value a particular player has is wholly dependant on the situation of the club.

going back to the example of a number 4 starter, whether you’d want perez or bannister you have to first realize that both aren’t top of the rotation guys and temper your expectations.

by cntrlalt on Jul 23, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What we're arguing is your definition of quality...

If Reyes, Kazmir, or Wright are the standards by which quality players are measured, there are very few teams in the majors that have produced sinifigantly more quality in the last 5 years. While it would be great if every minor league pitcher turned out to be Johan Santana, teams that can churn out guys like Mike Pelfrey will still have every chance to be successful. Fans that expect their franchise to constantly churn out David Wrights need to adjust their expectations.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If your using a five year stretch

I don’t hold Wright, Reyes and Kazmir as the rule, they by and large are the exeception for us.

I could probably rattle a few off the top of my head that do better at developing than we do. Boston is the first to come to mind. San Fran has produced Cain, Lincecom and Sandoval.

SI did a ranking of the top drafting teams in MLB over the past 10 years. Do you know where we sit in those rankings?

#20!!!!!!!!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/david_sabino/06/09/draft.rankings2/index.html

We are in the bottom third of the league.

by Chickendirt on Jul 23, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Silicon Valley Giant: Lincecom

by All Shook Down on Jul 23, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cause SI is the end all source of minor league systems, right?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jul 24, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Delgado and Beltran are not going to be here forever. Has the organization done anything to groom replacements for these guys?

I said that when the Mets signed Pedro it was a good stop gap signing. They could fill a hole for three years but somehow somewhere need to find a pitcher in this organization that could take over when he leaves. They signed Pedro in 05 and he left at the end or 08. That give them three seasons to acquire some pitching prospects and groom them at the minor league level.

Delgado is out of here at the end of the year. They don’t really have anyone in the organization that can fillin his position. Joe Murphy is a natural third basemen. How many years have they had to fill this hole?

You look at what the Red Sox have done through a course of time. They spent money. The thing is when they spent money they also stocked their minor league system to fill holes. Minaya doesn’t do that. He is a poor evaluator of talent (he thought this team could play .500 ball with all the injuries on the roster) and the guys in the system are border line career bench players. Niesse is mastering AAA but he’s a 3rd – 4th starter at best.

by Chickendirt on Jul 23, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ike Davis and Fernando Martinez maybe?

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Jul 23, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Beltran has a contract for the next two years

we get a high draft pick this year take a center fielder and in two years he should be ready, assuming we don’t extend the best center fielder in baseball

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Jul 23, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

or sign one

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh...Mike Pelfrey?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Jul 23, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We should start holding protests in front of Citi Field

We want the M&M boys fired. Minaya and Manuel. We’ll flip a few cars and start a complete riot until we get what we want.

Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!!
-Howie Rose
Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!

by The American Mr.Hockey on Jul 23, 2009 12:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Inject some life into this team

hire Kim Ng.. who’s a reasonable choice for manager though?

President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club

Fact on Villanova Sports

by Hoyadestroya85 on Jul 23, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I really would love to see Ng get the job.

Omar just got annihilated by Boras this off-season (re:Lowe, Ollie). Ng’s strongest point is negotiating and valuing players. She first started getting attention by arguing arb. cases and being very good at it, beating Boras several times.

She has said that her first priority would be to surround herself with a strong scouting staff because while she feels very confortable with money and stats, she has no scouting background. Basically she gets that all facets of player valuation are important.

Also I understand her when she speaks.

Ng for GM.

by OlStubbleBeard on Jul 23, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This team

definitely needs an overhaul in the scouting department.. A GM should be a business person though.. especially in baseball

President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club

Fact on Villanova Sports

by Hoyadestroya85 on Jul 23, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

The scouting dept has done an excellent job in the international market, quite possibly the best in the majors. It’s hard to fault them for the draft, as the business people are unwilling to draft talent over signability. The Mets have done an excellent job acquiring decent talent later in the draft, which should be attributed to the scouts. I really believe that if the business people commited to drafting the best player available, and didn’t worry about signability, the scouting staff would look just fine.When a team rarely has 1st round picks and won’t spend overslot, they aren’t going to get top prospects through the draft. When they’ve actually had 1st rounders to work with, they’ve added guys like Davis, Havens, and Holt.

"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."

-Jim Fregosi

by Schmidtxc on Jul 23, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Question:

From what I’ve read about drafts, the first 15 draft picks are protected.
So, if a team has 1st draft pick (1-15 overall) and they sign a Type-A free agent, they will lose their 2nd draft pick, and not the first one. Is this correct? By current and projected standings, are the Mets going to get a protected 1st round draft pick?

by Michkin on Jul 23, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about projected standings

but yes. As of now, the Mets would have a top 15 pick and could not lose it even if they signed a type-A

by OlStubbleBeard on Jul 23, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m finding it hard to get excited by this!

by TheBigStapler on Jul 23, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

The 2008 draft was one that really boosted this farm system, but it would’ve really been over-the-top if they didn’t go all signability with Javier Rodriguez.

by All Shook Down on Jul 23, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like the idea

but I think the Wilpons are far too conventional to be the first team to hire a female GM.

by JoshNY on Jul 23, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fixed

I think the Wilpons are far too conventional to hire a female smart GM.

by Zwill on Jul 23, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Gist of this entire article seems to be

FIRE OMAR but do it gently. :p

I wish Omar was still our scout and ONLY our scout. He’s way over his head here with all this GM’ing business.

by MetsGod on Jul 23, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's some fine work there, Sam

The only bad thing about this article is that I didn’t read it sooner. Eloquently put and an easy- read. Well done.

by meigs1414 on Jul 23, 2009 4:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There are some major issues with the following quote....

“. If the Red Sox were to lose David Ortiz, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury, Tim Wakefield, and Hideki Okajima and be thrown into the N.L. East, they’d beat the Phillies by at least five games. "

First of all, you don’t know that, and second of all, the Phillies weren’t built to compete against Boston, they are built to play in the NL East. Teams shouldn’t be compared to teams in other divisions, let alone leagues, because they are built to try and win their own division.

"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez

by nrmax88 on Jul 23, 2009 8:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Or in another way

the Red Sox could NEVER lose those guys and beat out the Yankees and Rays in a healthy AL East.

"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez

by nrmax88 on Jul 23, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course not

but doesn’t that kind of prove my point. I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t really buy into making teams that are “good enough” for your division. The Mets work with more money than the Sox and have to hire one less big hitter. If Theo Epstein was a NL East GM his team would probably win handily every year.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

one more thing.

teams in the NL need to be able to win against an AL club in the world series. with interleague play now around for so long, teams must be built to be able to beat AL clubs and other teams outside of their divisions.

yes getting to the playoffs requires you to trudge through your division, but settling for “good enough to beat your division” won’t get you past the AL teams.

by cntrlalt on Jul 24, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A seven-game series is a really small sample size

So you can’t really build a team to win a series specifically. The goal is to make your team as good as possible, which is why a team with vast resources shouldn’t stockpile garbage on their 40-man roster and at AAA.

by All Shook Down on Jul 25, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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