Jeff Francoeur Is Just What The Mets Needed?
by Sam Page on Jul 27, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
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PrintJeff Francoeur has played all of twelve games with the Mets, posting a modest but encouraging .817 OPS. Too soon to call it a win for the Mets? Too soon to look at his statistics as if they are any way predictive? Too soon to post a sparkly magic pony picture of him rubbing his grissiony chin? None of the above.
When the Mets traded Ryan Church to the Atlanta Braves for Jeff Francoeur, there was an outcry among Mets fans such as I’ve never heard before over a trade that I thought was a great one for the Mets.
Quoth Joe-D-Wan-Kenobi: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced [by a small sample size]."
All of a sudden Ryan Church was looked upon as this golden boy, when in fact he hadn’t put together a string of six solid games in a row since April of 2008.
No. No. No. Ryan Church is no great player, no one ever lamented losing him, in particular. He was an average player, which is better than a bad player. My issue with the trade, personally, was the haphazard and seemingly random thought process that it indicated.
Also "six solid games" seems like a funny number to make up since he started the season with a six-game hitting streak, in which he had a 1.278 OPS.
At the time of the trade, I lobbied hard for Jeff Francoeur because I saw something in him that we haven’t seen since Darryl Strawberry last did it in 1990, almost 20 years ago. A 100 RBI season. It’s hard to believe that at a position that most teams have stocked with a slugger, the Mets have suffered through two decades of offensive futility. Not anymore.
I too find it hard to believe the Mets don't keep a slugger in rightfield, which is why I found it hard to believe they traded for Jeff Francoeur. Just to illustrate how meaningless RBIs are, consider that during that 19 year stretch there were about five years when no one had 100 RBIs, including the hard-rocking Italian-American catching lord himself, Mike Piazza.
Go back and consider this sentence in the abstract:
It’s hard to believe that at a position that most teams have stocked with a slugger, the Mets have suffered through two decades of offensive futility. Not anymore.
Now remember he's talking about the arrival of Jeff Francoeur.
In Francoeur, the Mets got themselves a player who already had two 100 RBI seasons before his 24th birthday. Many Mets fans have said that those 100 RBI seasons were now a distant memory and he was washed up. Washed up at 25? I didn’t buy it for one minute.
During Jeff Francoeur's mythical 100-RBI season, he came to the plate 319 times with runners on base, including 257 times with runners in scoring position. "Washed-up" seems a little strong, anyway. I'd go with "never that good."
What I saw was a young player who tasted success early on, and when pitchers adjusted to him, he failed to adjust to them. It was plain to see.
Yea, if you can't adjust to curveballs and fastballs outside the strike zone, you have problems.
In 2008, Frenchy unsuccessfully tried to fix things his way. In 2009, he was desperately seeking help wherever he could find it, including boarding a plane to meet with another team’s hitting instructor.
A Delta Airlines® plane.
He is batting .327 with a .490 slugging percentage. And yet believe it or not, we have many complaining that he has no walks. Really?
First of all, TWELVE GAMES. You don't have to be into "sabremetrics" to realize 12 games is not statistically significant. I'm rooting for the guy, hard, believe me, but no walks can be a problem, as it can be indicative of an underlying problem in approach. To quote one astute reader:
- Swung at the first pitch 23 times (62%)
- Is averaging 3.5 pitches per at bat (actually an improvement from his 3.34 season average)
- Has drawn zero walks (I suppose that could be assumed)
- OSwing percentage is 36.2% (only pitchers and Angel Berroa are worse)
- ZSwing percentage is 88.3% (Leads the team, closest to him is Reed at 73%, and is 7 points higher than his season average and league leading 81%)
- Swing percentage is 62.7% (Up from his season average of 58%, which is third in the league)
In my opinion, these trends are probably more predictive than a few homers, but hey we'll see. Secretly, I like Francoeur, in a Bill-Plashke-likes-Juan-Pierre-and-his-own-beard sort of way.
There is a contingency in our fanbase that would prefer to see less hits and more walks. This is why I can never fully commit to all these new statistical measures. Why in the world would I ever care about how many walks my number five hitter has? I could understand if the argument was to distinguish the value of our number one and two hitters. Those hitters get paid to get on base by hook or by crook.
It's not a zero-sum game. There is no choice between hit and walks, ideally you have both. You care how many walks your five-hitter has, just like you care about how many walks every hitter has, because if he doesn't walk at all (like Jeff Francoeur) he's not a very valuable hitter. Getting on base is the most important thing a hitter does. Yes, hits, especially of the extra-base variety, are important, but unless Jeff Francoeur becomes Ichiro, dude needs to walk. "All these new statistical measures" account for these things, assigning relative value to each outcome. wOBA isn't -1 point for every hit +2 for every walk. Unless, of course, he was talking about walks as a "new statistical measure."
But here we have a bona fide slugger who can drive in runs, and yet so many would prefer to take the bat right out of his hands. <shaking my head in disbelief>
Hojo: Francoeur.
Hojo: FRANCOEUR!
Francoeur: Huh?
Hojo: FRANCOEUR, SWEET JEBUS DROP THE BAT.
Francoeur: What?
Hojo: GET THAT BAT OUT OF YOUR HANDS.
Francoeur Huh?
Hojo: I SAW YOU ABOUT TO DRIVE IN THAT RUN. SOMEONE TAKE THAT FREAKING BAT OUT OF HIS HANDS.
[Church] was a square peg in a round hole. I knew it, Jerry Manuel knew it, Omar Minaya knew it.
John Ricco knew it when he ran into Minaya's office tripping out of his mind on acid, after "brainstorming" in the other room.
The last thing this team needed was Ryan Church walking with a runner on second base instead of driving him home. Good riddance to him and his walks. By the way, he’s batting .200 with the Braves, but fear not, he has plenty of walks. You can keep the walks, I’ll take the RBI’s instead.
Well you can keep your RBIs and the walks too, because you're going to need them. P.S. Church is 1.9 runs better than Francoeur since the trade, despite his cold streak. But Francoeur's defense suits Citi Field...
After the game last night, Mets manager Jerry Manuel said that Jeff Francoeur has energized a number of players on this team that were in need of some recharging, including David Wright.
Hopefully, in return, Wright taught him how to play baseball.
"That young man knows how to compete. He knows how to win and he hates to lose."
Jerry went on to say "...unlike this guy over here, who loves to lose. Yea, I'm looking at you Luis. Nice non-catch."
Those are just a couple of those immeasurable intangibles that you’ll always here me blogging about.
The same immeasurable intangibles that you'll always hear me skeptically revealing to be present when things are going right and suddenly absent when things go wrong.
Francoeur has helped revive a team that was pronounced dead at the All Star break. This weekend alone, he had seven RBIs in the three-game series against the Astros. Gary Cohen asked,
"When’s the last time any Met did that?"
Wright at San Francisco, if you're actually wondering.
When asked to comment about the series yesterday, Francoeur opted to talk about the Mets post season chances instead…
"The last two games, we’ve played great ball. It’s big momentum for us coming home. We got a shot. We’ve got 65 games left, and I guarantee you every person on this team will fight their butts off to the end."
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but one Jeff Francoeur isn't going to change the Mets ~1% playoff odds.
It sounds a lot like something Tug McGraw or Keith Hernandez would say when they once roamed the Mets clubhouse.
Roamed the open plains of the clubhouse like a wild bantha (keeping with the episode IV theme from above).
I am so glad that Francoeur’s 100 RBI bat is now an integral part of our lineup. And if we do manage to win a wild card this season, you can be sure that it never would have happened without Francoeur.
If we do in fact make the post season, the Jeff Francoeur trade will be known as the turning point in the Mets season. In fact, I believe it already is.
Wanna bet? Listen, the Mets aren't going to make the playoffs, and if they do, it's through an act of God, and in spite of the Francoeur trade, not because of it. I want him to succeed, but let's give him the rest of the season before we proclaim him savior, or even good.
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I got to say Sam, I wasn't in favor of you responding to this piece
but this is gold.
John Ricco knew it when he ran into Minaya’s office tripping out of his mind on acid, after “brainstorming” in the other room.
This is worse than Cerrone could ever ever write
even he wrote that he’s worried about the lack of walks. I’d comment at the original website, but what difference will it make?
"Put it in the books. The Mets are the 2006 National League Eastern Divison champions"--Howie Rose
It's the nature of a Mets fan
to ignore glaring problems when everything is going right.
Oh wait, that’s the nature of Mets management. My mistake.
Nice work
and in what seems like record time!
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 27, 2009 1:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Very funny article as always
though I just can’t bring myself to join the Francouer is French for Boisclair kvetching quite yet.
Francoeur may surprise us yet, but his tenure with the Mets will most likely be summed up in one play.
It never gets old!
Is that picture from when Frenchy botched the flyball?
If it is, then I say to you :
GIVE ME A BREAK!
The guy makes one goof up and all of a sudden everything else he’s done(driving in runs and being a nice charge of energy for the mets) suddenly doesn’t matter?
Talk about hatin’….
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
“Church rounded third base and didn’t touch it! He’s cost us plenty of games!”
…is what more than a few people said right after he was traded.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
What are the chances
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Great response
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Jul 27, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions
nice article
I’m surprised nobody on the pro-Frenchy side has looked at who was batting ahead of him during those 100 RBI season. Chipper, Renteria, and Kelly Johnson, who had OBPs of 425, 390, and 375. (And Andruw, who was no good that year.)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2007.shtml
He had 319 PAs with men on base, but that means almost 400 PAs without men on base. And what is Frenchy going to do without men on base? One in every 30-something times he’ll hit it out and 5 in every 7 times he’ll get his team one out closer to losing the game.
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
I mean Sam Page's article
not the quoted article. Duh…
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
I did not like the trade when it happened,
but the jury is still out on it. Also, while I agree with most Sam’s points, I simply cannot agree with condescending his two 100+ RBIs seasons. Sure, RBIs do not mean that much, but percentages (in large samples) do. And guess what, his runners-batted-in percentages were in fact pretty good in 2006 and 2007
During Jeff Francoeur’s mythical 100-RBI season, he came to the plate 319 times with runners on base, including 257 times with runners in scoring position. “Washed-up” seems a little strong, anyway. I’d go with “never that good.”
I did not find RISP stats (where are those?), but according to baseball-reference, he batted in 164 of 937 baserunners in ‘06 and ’07 combined. That’s 17.5%, compared to Church’s lifetime 15.2%. In comparison, Wright’s lifetime is 17.9%, A-rod’s 17.9%, Chipper’s 17.3% or Delgado’s 18.4%.
So, I would say his ’06 and ’07 RBI stats are pretty solid and not only because of the totals. He WAS pretty good then. The problem is, he has not been very good since — converting only 13.6% runners into runs. And this already includes his current hot streak with the Mets (12/40=30%) – talk about small sample.
RISP stats
Go to a player’s baseball-reference player page, mouse over “Splits” under batting, then click “Career” or the year you want.
Thanks, good stuff!
However, the article does not defy my claim that Francoeur was pretty good in RBI opportunities in ’06 and ’07. So still no reason to condescend those numbers. As opposed to his numbers in ’08 and ’09, of course. His numbers with the Mets are such a small sample that it really does not make sense analyzing. Not yet.
I don’t think there’s much point in arguing that he wasn’t good in RBI opportunities in 2006 and 2007. I think the point is that RBIs simply don’t mean very much whether you’re good or bad at getting them.
ain't had enough...
Yes, and no...
Yes, RBI totals are not that important. However, delivering in RBI opportunities is important. Sam was condescending ’06 and ’07 RBI totals implicitly suggesting that Francoeur was simply given too many opportunies. I tried to point out that this is not true. He was good in RBI totals (not very telling) as well as “RBI percentages”, i.e. in delivering in RBI opportunities (important).
.288/.342/.456
career with risp. Better than overall and much better than when abses empty.
Clearly the guy just gives up with the bases empty. Like Derek Jeter, unmotivated by non-clutch situations.
except that
no one has ever convincingly demonstrated (that I’ve seen, at least) that “delivering in RBI opportunities” is a separate skill from hitting ability in general. Apparent variation from one to the other is just noise, not meaningful data.
if
Eddie Murray hit .292/.392/.497 risp and .275/.341/.451 bases empty, it may just be random, but it might not be. It’s hard to say. Although it doesn’t shine a light on him as far as his ability to be a table setter I guess.
Seriously, no one suggests you can be a totally different hitter with men in scoring position than otherwise. I find it interesting that Francouer’s line with risp is as good as it is. It’s isn’t great but much better than with bases empty.
If there is anything to this issue, it would seem more likely to me that some guys choke in pressure situations, not that somehow someone is going to suddenly get better under pressure.
And i’d imagine there’s some skill in getting a guy in from third with less than 2 out, albeit you don’t want to waste Alex Rodriguez, say, in hitting grounders to second.
you're not accounting for the fact that it's just generally easier to hit with guys on base
instead of the “choke in pressure situations” psychobabble, which is a waste of time.
hmm
Ya know, i have read a lot about this over the years. I am not unaware that statistical studies have not been able to show any repeatable ability to hit in the clutch.
However, I doubt very much that it is “psychobabble” to suggest that there are some people who do not hit as well in pressure situations. It is not easy to isolate. Suffice it to say that some people freeze up in tense situations. To suggest that isn’t so runs against most people’s experience in life. It most certainly isn’t “psychobabble.”
There are tons of studies that show that people’s motor skills and judgment are effected by stressful situations. Of course, hitting a baseball in front of thousands of people isn’t like being shot at by german 88s. But stress seems to have effected Khalil Greene’s game, albeit not so that it effects his hitting in clutch as opposed to non-clutch situations.
I am merely saying if it shows up at all, it would show up in people who might fail in that situation, not in someone miraculously hitting better than they ordinarily do.
So, tell, me, what is the average increase in a player’s ops with risp, and what was,say Eddie Murray’s or Francouer’s? I am aware it is random. Yet they ended up on one side of the random, Derek Jeter did not (his ops is lower with risp over his career).
this is implausible, because of the selection implicit in being a major-league player.
A credible armchair-psychological account of ballplayers has to take into account that major-league players are a vanishingly small proportion of the general population, selected because they have already performed under pressure at every level of amateur and professional play. Almost all people who are going to collapse under extreme pressure (though not necessarily every last one) have already been weeded out at that point.
Khalil Greene
Rick Ankiel the pitcher? Steve Blass the picther? mackey Sasser? Steve Sax throwing to first base? Chuck knoblauch? Zach Greinke?
Admittedly these are not “clutch” situations, but other breakdowns in mechanics or ability, either general or specific. Sometimes they appear out of nowhere. Some repeated motion that you always did without thinking somehow becomes something you can’t do at all.
These are all unrelated to “clutch” situations. Most games, after so much time in baseball, i doubt 1 out, runner at second, Livan hernandez throwing you slop, 10,000 fans in say PNC park, you will be too tense. 50,000 fans, runners at 2nd and third, game 7 of the playoffs? Or late in a close September pennant race?
Yes, some people wil freeze up. A pitcher can, the hitter can. To suggest that is not so flies in the face of human experince. Is it possible to prove and isolate choke hitter from clucth guy? No, evidently not. Since this discussion was about Francouer’s ribbies, i’d say, no, all evidence is that he just got lucky.
Although, again, some guys likely are better at getting a runner in from thrid with less than 2 outs. Sometimes game situation does dictate a player take a different approach. may mean a run every 5 years or so, i don’t know.
yeah, I get what you're saying.
And I think the stuff you’re mentioning in pgphs 1 and 2 — though totally unrelated to clutchness as you rightly point out — is fascinating and mysterious, and would make a great subject for further investigation, preferably by real professional psychologists and neuroscientists.
But I’m deeply skeptical about drawing any analogies at all between general “human experience” — your experience and mine, that is — and MLB players, and I’m similarly skeptical that you and I have much insight into their world. They are not part of the general population; they’ve been rigorously selected out of it, and they have nearly superhuman abilities in many regards compared to the rest of us. Reasoning from my armchair idea of the psychology of me and people like me seems to me very unlikely to yield insights into their completely abnormal situation.
true
They are human freaks, ballplayers. And the breakdowns i mention are not clutch hitting related. And I was just random musing on it.
You mention older Bill james and Baseball Prospectus below. I’ve been erading them for years, james since about 1982, so I know what you are saying to be true. Not worth the effort to try to find “clutch” hitters the effect is so weak if at all. I still find the topic interesting, and note that Francouer’s increase is above the average in that situation, if not at all outside random.
But this is why i joked about him or Murray not being table setters. The implication if they are “clutch” would be that they underperform with bases empty. Which isn’t a good thing either.
repeated for emphasis:
HITTING WITH RUNNERS IN SCORING POSITION IS NOT A SKILL.
Sorry — you can tell all the psychological stories you like to account for the random variation among hitters/seasons/at-bats, but it’s still just noise.
Focusing on the hitters
Hitting with runners in scoring position, the batter might have better results not because they are “clutch”, but because the pitcher is better from the windup than from the stretch.
YES
I HAVE READ THE SAME STUFF YOU GUYS HAVE READ.
I am not telling “psychological stories.” I know that hitting in the clutch is not a skill that stats back up or can isolate. That does not mean that different people may react differently in pressure situations, and that stress or pressure can effect motor skills. That is actually proven in countless studies as well.
It has no measurable effect that is detectable, agreed. That some guys fall above the average and some below the average “improvement” with guys on base in their hitting dovetails with the random expected distribution. Nevertheless, Francouer is above the average improvement expected.
My simple take was merely that, to the extent there is anything to it, and it isn’t statistically provable, it would more likely be in some people freezing up, not in someone’s ability suddenly increasing under pressure. That would not be likely given the scientific knowledge of people’s performance in pressure situations. So ultimately I would think Francouer’s better than expected increse in his performance in pressure situations is just that, a random blip. but someone who underperfomed, well, that could be nerves, albeit i can’t prove it.
actually,
it’s not rocket science. The whole problem is that for testing equality of parameters of Bernoulli distribution, a huge sample size is necessary. If Francoeur is batting 0.288 with RISP in 706 AB, the sample standard deviation is approximately 0.017, i.e. relatively big. As a consequence, the 95% confidence interval for Francoeur’s batting average with RISP is (0.254, 0.322). Similarly, the sample standard deviation for Francouer’s batting average with bases empty (in 1348 AB) is 0.012, resulting in 95% confidence interval (0.242, 0.289). Then, under the null hypothesis that the two batting averages equal, the sample std of the difference is 0.0209. Since the difference between the two batting averages is 0.022, and F(0.022/0.209) = F(0.854) = 0.841, the probability that the two batting averages are in fact equal is 16%. Roughly speaking.
The bottomline is that the sample on Francoeur is still too small to make the judgement at (the usual) 5% significance level. However, if he replicates his numbers within next 5 years, the evidence might be enough to claim (at a reasonable significance level) that he bats better with RISP than with bases empty.
except for one thing:
For all the other batters in the history of baseball, over whatever sample size you like, hitting stats with RISP have not been repeatable or predictive.
I admit I'm new to the subject,
so can you please point me to the relevant scientific paper? When it comes to claims, I prefer evidence. (I have not taken look on any other batter other than Francoeur.) Also, the fact that you cannot reject null hypothesis (at some significance level) does not imply that the null hypothesis holds.
There are many places to look.
Start here (found via a footnote from The Baseball Economist).
actually, never mind -- that's an outlier
A rare sabermetric argument that there may be a (note: very weak) “clutch” effect. For the more common position — that hitting ability w/RISP is just a small-sample-biased version of hitting in general — you’d want to look elsewhere. I’m away from my books right now so can’t do too much better than Google — but the obvious places to look for the sources of this relatively common-knowledge saber-idea are in the older publications of Baseball Prospectus and Bill James.
Fair enough.
I was about to write why the link provided actually does not show your point, but I guess we can agree that the evidence provided there was inconclusive. Still, thank you for the link, I might take a better look on it later. (Although, at first glance, it seemed to me like a nice but simple intro to applied probability/statistics.) Now, let’s see Stokes get some more outs.
Check out The Book
by Tango/Lichtman/Dolphin. The chapter on clutch hitting addresses this. Tango’s conclusion ultimately is that clutch hitting does in fact exist but its effect on the game is quite small. I can’t recommend The Book enough though.
Thanks for the reference!
I guess it’s time to look at that finally. I’m skeptical but at least I can be positively surprised.
It's definitely worth reading
So many of the advances made by the Hardball Times and Fangraphs in the last few years are directly attributable to The Book and/or Tom Tango. It’s pointless to preach FIP or UZR or wOBA without understanding the foundations, functions and limits of those stats. The Book will provide much of that background.
see
Yes, quite small. Not enough to declare Jeff Francouer savior. But the received wisdom always thrown back in your face is no effect at all. I suppose no effect worth even thinking about Jeff Francouer as the Met rightfielder next year. Yikes.
Francoueur hits HRs 1 out of every 57 at bats. This is up from earlier in the year, when he had 6 HR in his last 600 ABs. I wouldn’t call that a “slugger”.
If Dunn walks 30 fewer times, he'll drive in 15 more runs. This is thanks to the scientifically proven formula: RBI = (this is nonsense) (I made it all up).
Here's a stat: Wins as manager: Dusty Baker, 1,162; Bill James, 0.
Except on the '09 Mets
it does sadly qualify as “slugger” status.
I'd call that an "effective" hitter.
But that’s all I’ll call him.
Of course others call him something else and it ain’t nice. (OH SNAP!)
"He knows how to win"
It’s official. Jerry not only needs to be fired, he needs to be tarred and feathered too.
Also, it appears that the WFAN callers are going to defend Francoeur to the bitter end much as they did with Omir. Given that the Mets front office seems to make moved based on focus groups conducted with that part of the fan base, this won’t end well.
In my fever dreams, I have a vision of the Mets trading Francoeur and Santos to Washington for Adam Dunn….who will promptly have a golden sombrero in his first game as a Met, including striking out in the 8th inning with the bases loaded and 1 out, causing the WFAN fans heads to explode.
And in the subsequent silence, Dunn will go on to hit .250/.380/.550 and lead the Mets to the 2010 division title.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
If you have an issue with Fans calling WFAN to express their support of Frenchy...
….then get up, go to the phone, dial the number for WFAN, get on the radio, and express your displeasure on all the Pro-Frenchy stuff.
Otherwise, don’t say anything.
Oh and one more thing. Here is something I found on wikipedia about him :
“Dunn has come under criticism for what some view as a lackadaisical effort in left field. When Dunn was a free agent in 2009 Toronto Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi commented in response to a question about acquiring Dunn.
""Do you know the guy doesn’t really like baseball that much?
Do you know the guy doesn’t have a passion to play the game that much?
How much do you know about the player?
There’s a reason why you’re attracted to some players and there’s a reason why you’re not attracted to some players. I don’t think you’d be very happy if we brought Adam Dunn here."
Reds announcer Marty Brennaman has criticized Dunn’s lack of clutch hitting as well noting “He homers; he doesn’t drive in runs.”
I rest my case.
Scotty?
Man, this deserves a fisking.
then get up, go to the phone, dial the number for WFAN, get on the radio, and express your displeasure on all the Pro-Frenchy stuff.
It’s not Frency per se, it’s the WFAN caller praise heaped on bad players like Frenchy and Omir Santos while simultaneously howling about Wright “not being a leader”, Beltran being “soft”, or Reyes being “too flashy”. Sorry, I prefer my baseball players being good at playing baseball, even if they have highlights in their hair. Frenchy is not good at baseball. Beltran is. Deal.
And yes, I realize I’m overgeneralizing, but there’s certainly an element of the Mets fanbase that believe such crap.
Also, J.P. Ricciardi is an idiot who has done nothing of note as GM of the Blue Jays and (more importantly) never actually had Dunn on his team. He should have kept his yap shut, especially considering how crappy the Jays offense has been the last few years.
Reds announcer Marty Brennaman has criticized Dunn’s lack of clutch hitting as well noting "He homers; he doesn’t drive in runs."
This is literally a meaningless statement. A home run by definition drives in runs. If he was only hitting solo shots, maybe the Reds should have put people in front of him with OBPs greater than .310, yes? Also, there is no such thing as a “clutch hitter”.
I rest my case.
I would suggesty taking your own advice and “don’t say anything”.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 28, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In fairness to Ricciardi
If the Blue Jays played in the NL, they’d be in the playoffs pretty much every year. Or really any other division but the AL East. They have to play the Yankees and Red Sox (and now the Rays, but the point is really about payroll size) 36 times a year, and still have finished over .500 each of the last three years. They won 86 games last year, and finished FOURTH in the division. Put them anywhere else, and they’d have a strong chance at a championship with the pitching they have.
by yellomellojello on Jul 28, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
fair point
but it in no way excuses the ridiculous shot he took at Dunn for no reason.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 28, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
WTF?
It’s not allowed to be critical of mouth-breathing WFAN callers without calling in yourself? Who made that rule, the WFAN advertisers’ committee?
You’re not making even the most basic sense here with the nonsense you’re talking about Dunn — and the rapid-fire posting of knee-jerk opinions comes off like you’re just stirring the pot, posting in order to get things riled up. Please: try taking a few moments to compose your thoughts first, and just posting in one place rather than everywhere.
Ichiro
Yes, hits, especially of the extra-base variety, are important, but unless Jeff Francoeur becomes Ichiro, dude needs to walk.
This is somewhat unfair to Ichiro. It sounds like he doesn’t walk at all (career 6.4% BB while Francoueur career 4.8%). If Frenchy walked as much as Ichiro, that would be an improvement already.
2009
Ichiro walks: 19 BB (4.6%) 11 IBB
Francoeur walks: 12 BB (3.3%) 2 IBB
Can't count intentional walks
Those aren’t really a reflection of patience, so I usually throw them out. uBB% is the more relevant stat:
Francoeur: 2.7%
Ichiro: 1.9%
Ah, found out what is wrong
IBB numbers are included in BB. I thought BB and IBB were separated already.
You posted numbers for 2009, here are their career numbers:
Ichiro uBB% : 4.2%
Francoeur uBB%: 4.0%
If RBIs are so important
why don’t they put them up on the scoreboard?
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
who cares, wincouer is our savior
sam is correct of course and that post is rediculous but do not forget the underlying truth is still there: FRANCOEUR = CHAMPTION
just wait. you’ll see. you’ll all see. then me and frenchy will be poppin the pagne and celebrating like pals. me and frenchy, pals 4eva.
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
Braves' fan here
And I gotta say, I feel really, really badly for you guys. First, you actually go out and trade FOR FYF, and now, you have people who are defending that trade? Ugh. Good luck with all of that!
Oh, and for what it is worth, our entire blog over at Talking Chop is also viewing the trade of Jeff Francoeur as the turning point in our season, so we all have that in common, right?
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT reply actions
What the hell has Ryan Church
done to make you any better
by Jadden Hopkins on Jul 27, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
What has he done? Well, for starters, he isn’t Jeff Francoeur…that alone (not having the MLB’s worst position player in the line-up) makes us a much better team.
Plus Francoeur has an OBP of .327 on the Mets, while Church has a .350…so, in a small sample size like this, I would say that Church’s higher OBP makes Atlanta a better team in addition to him not being Jeff Francoeur.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If OBP is so important
why don’t they put it on the scoreboard.LoL!!!
by Jadden Hopkins on Jul 27, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I hope you enjoy Ryan's SIZZLING .200 BATTING AVERAGE!!
As well as him striking out almost as much as David Wright did.
I, for one, say GOOD F’N RIDDANCE to Mediocre Garbage.
I rest my case
As well as him striking out almost as much as David Wright did.
See what I mean about a portion of the Mets fanbase crapping all over a guy who (when all is said and done) might be the greatest player in franchise history?
And then they turn around and defend Francoeur, who might be literally the worst player in the game.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jul 28, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
you've been talking to that portion of the fan base all along
The WFAN calls are coming from inside the building!
lol
Are you really this stupid? I think you may just be trying to bait here, but I will bite anyway.
Church is a career .272 hitter. Frenchy is a career .267 – Church wins this one
Church is a career .345 OBP. Frenchy is a career .309 – Church wins again
Church is a career .442 SLG. Frenchy is a career .426 – Another win for Church
Church is a career .787 OPS. Frenchy is a career .735 – It is a Church sweep.
What do all of these numbers mean? Well, they mean that Church is a better hitter, with better plate discipline and that he hits for more power. In other words, Church is better than Francoeur.
Now, you can take your little 12 games sample size if you want and we can compare again:
Church Avg – .200 Frenchy Avg – .327
Church OBP – .351 Frenchy OBP – 339
Church SLG – .300 Frenchy SLG – .538
Church OPS – .651 Frenchy OPS – .878
What do these numbers tell us? Well, they tell us that while Frenchy has a better average and more power over the past TWELVE GAMES, that Church is actually getting on base more than Frenchy is. So, even when Church is slumping (as these numbers over the past 12 games indicate), he is still a better hitter than Frenchy. Hitters are supposed to get on base. Not hit HRs, not even make contact. They are supposed to not make an out.
I will take a guy with a .200 average and OBP of .350 over a guy with an average of .320 and OBP of .290 any day.
Good luck with Francoeur. When he comes back down to earth (how sad is it that his numbers over the past 2 weeks are astronomically high for him???), remember this conversation.
Also, I will take “Mediocre Garbage” over “Suck” any day of the week and twice on Sunday!
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 28, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
my favorite part
is adding that, Church having already won the obp and slugging race, that he came back and one the OPS race as well. “It’s a Church sweep.” I was worried for a second.
Sweet. Let’s all be smart-asses. I know that OPS is OBP and SLG, but apparently, you have quite a few fans who think Frenchy is a better player because he has a higher batting average. I wouldn’t assume that they knew this little tidbit about OPS.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 28, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
guilty as charged
Just teasing. And I spelled “won” “one” so wtfdik.
I preferred when it was called SLOB.
Fair enough. Friends? lol
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 28, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Excuse me but what are you doing?
Can you provide solid stats to me without INSULTING ME?
I was warned when I attacked a poster. Why weren’t you?
Nevermind...I forgot. You're a Craplanta fan.
That alone demonstrates your LOW IQ.
Mediocre Garbage is what the Braves are...
Oh and if you’re going to mention averages as well as OBP/SLG/OPS, then why don’t you mention RBI’s Driven Career-Wise?
Answer : Because you like to twist things so that it makes you feel better about having picked up a “Mediocre Player” for your “Mediocre Team”.
In fact :
Frenchy’s lowest RBI year was his rookie here where he got 45 RBIs that year. He then followed that year with back to back 100+ RBI seasons.
Church’s Best Season driving in Runs(70 in 2007 with WAS) was only Frenchy’s WORST.
Let me repeat : Church’s BEST Season driving in Runs was Frenchy’s WORST. OOPS! As much as I would love for Frenchy to raise his OBP/SLG/OPS, I like Players who actually drive in his teammates that are on base in front of him.
Plus, with the injuries, I have zero confidence in anyone not named David Wright or Murphy to drive Frenchy in(if by some miracle he gets on base).
Bottom Line : Give me Frenchy with plenty of upside...
….over a What-you-see-is-what-you-get Church ANYDAY of the Week.
dude, RBI's are not used at this website. Get over it.
If you wanna use those stats to prove he’s better (which he’s not) go to Metsblog, or Metsmerized. Which is probably where you from.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Listen to the braves fan
I’m stuck in atlanta and can’t go anywhere without strangers noticing my Mets hat and thanking me for taking their trash off their hands… just adds to the already rampant Metsdepression I’m in.
I’m sure we all want the guy to succeed, but blindly believing in him as a savior based on 12 games of production is the kind of attitude that crushes your hopes and dreams.
by carmine_riccardi on Jul 27, 2009 5:02 PM EDT reply actions
Dude. Last I checked, Baseball was a TEAM SPORT.
We could have freakin’ Babe Ruth and we’d still be going nowhere ’cause OUR PITCHING SUCKS!!!
This isn’t the NBA where one guy could put an entire team on his back….
I'm going to give him the Omir Santos treatment
I’m going to ride his bat until he cools off.And when he does cool off all hell will break lose
That's the way to approach it.
But unlike Santos, I don’t think he’ll start getting groundball outs continously….Frenchy is making good contact each time.
hahha…right. Go on believing that. Ignore what we Braves fans have watched night in and night out for the past 3 years, because of his “incredible” 12 game stretch where he has been league average.
"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT
by justincredubil02 on Jul 28, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Braves aren't going anywhere this season either.....
…so I wouldn’t be crowing about anything at this point.
By the way, Jeff does not have to be a superstar like he was expected to be in Craplanta. There was a lot of pressure he had over there. Over here in NY, I heard that he said that he feels no pressure and that he can freely just play baseball and not worry about giving out tickets to family and * cough * * cough * so-called Friends.
Enjoy Church and his .222 batting average. We’ll enjoy watching Frenchy drive the ball and make contact(something Mr.Concussion has difficulty doing)
uhh, MetsGod just to point out, at AA people don't use batting average
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
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