Going through the Motions Applesauce - Ricco could replace Minaya, Utility players, Pedro, Mets miss on Rios
One of the problems with the beach is a total lack of desire to watch this team when I could just sit around and enjoy myself instead. Why do I want to suffer any more when I can relax in a hot tub? Still, there are plenty of news stories and notes that have attracted my attention from last night, so here goes.
Meet the Mets
I couldn't help read the Daily News recap and feel like the Mets, including the manager, are just going through the motions. Talking to all the players privately, like it's too much effort to throw a buffet table over (not that that ever accomplishes anything, but still).
Adam Rubin also reports that Assistant GM John Ricco could replace Omar in any possible shakeup.
To complete this disastrous season, the Mets are now slashing ticket prices on their remaining home games.
Metsradamus summarizes the Met organizational philosophy: build a team of utility players. Which, as it happens, is something the Mets actually need.
Jason Fry compiles a pretty decent preview of what the Mets need to accomplish this offseason.
Around the NL East
Pedro will get his Philadelphia debut tomorrow vs. the Cubs. The Phillies have been in a minor tailspin of late and have seen their lead in the NL East drop to 3.5 games over the Marlins.
Florida moved closer with a win over the Astros last night. The Marlins were helped along by Astro manager Cecil Cooper who ordered an intentional walk of Nick Johnson to get a righty-righty matchup... against Hanley Ramirez.
The Phillies have shut down JC Romero with tendinitis.
Take a look at the pitch that Shane Victorino ran all the way in from center field to fight.
In a disappointing turn of events (the kid is talented, even though he's on an opposing team), Nats pitcher Jordan Zimmermann will miss 18 months with Tommy John surgery.
The Nats are sticking with Christian Guzman.
Around MLB
The Oakland Athletics have cut Jason Giambi.
Chicago White Sox GM was busy yesterday, picking up Alex Rios off waivers from Toronto and getting a jaywalking ticket in Seattle.
The Hardball Times presents a primer on what replacement level means.
Troy Tulowitzki hit for the cycle and drove in seven in Colorado's 11-5 win over the Cubs.
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Adam Rubin lobby for Riccio to replace Omar
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Wait a minute
Ricco is the point man in the Mets’ front office for rules compliance as well as statistical analysis and the financial ramifications of maneuvers.
Do we really want this guy to be GM? Apparently he doesnt have a whole lot of foresight if he’s the one okaying the deals to Pedro, Wagner, Perez, K-rod, etc. And statistical analysis is definitely something the Mets do not practice. Unless this guy is completely powerless, which I suspect he is not, he sounds like he’d be the worst GM in the world.
I might have to go with powerless
Did you see the presentation Sam linked to yesterday? They are doing serious number crunching over there, hard as it is to believe.
Or maybe Ricco is their boss and still doesn’t listen to them.
You see, Ben Baumer he lobby me . . .
etc.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 11, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
you lobby to make lobby jokes
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
This got me thinking
Are there any advanced statistical measurments for catchers? Sort of a micro-range factor analysis? Passed balls are to catching what errors are to other defensive positions.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 11, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
So wait a second here!!!
Does that mean that Riccio-Suave knows Sabermetrics and will use his knowledge when he is GM? If so, someone tell him about this website. :)
He’ll have plenty of “friends” to choose from.
Mike Silva has done it again
http://nybaseballdigest.com/?p=14038
what an idiot
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
I'd read it, but I don't really like giving hits on a site I don't care for.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 11, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree I have not read it and will not.
His site is clearly in need for hits, first he decide to “break” fabricated trade stories to gain hits and now he is using trolling as his means. He even said in the thread yesterday to look out for his next “article” that continues the “debate.” He will continue to write this garbage and I could care less. James tried to teach him but he has such a jaded predisposition that it’s clear he would rather argue for “his” side in the made up scout vs stat fight than learn. I think it would be best if all of us ignore his “work” rather than mock it or him.
Which one of us did THIS comment?
Mike, I just talked to a respected journalist and baseball insider, who wanted to remain anonymous because his organization would not let him talk about statistical projects done by other organizations. But in so many words he said "you are to analyzing like Francoeur is to walking."
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I did
steven gerrard is my alias. I couldn’t help it,
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Defensive metrics have limitations that people are tryin to address
therefore screw them I’m going by gut, intuition, intangibles, anonymous “baseball people,” and my selective memory of bad throws by Wright and kicked balls by Rey Ordonez.
i love it when
journalists talk about “baseball people who wished to remain anonymous”. It’ such bullshit, and lazy journalism.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I just got off the phone
with a scout in a baseball organization who wished to remain anonymous. But he basically said that Mike Silva’s journalist and analyzing abilities are like the abilities of a 12 year old pitcher in the LLWS pitching to A-Rod.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
What?
You mean you’re not still fuming over the Headingley Test from last weekend?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 11, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
huh?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yeah
the test that england got embarrassingly killed. Well, hopefully Freddy Flintoff comes back
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I figured
Freddy was intentionally held out so he could make the dramatic return in the last test and win back the Ashes in his final test match. Then again, I’m a bit of a conspiracy nut.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 11, 2009 1:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you like lancashire?
I support Sussex
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was born in Manchester
though I grew up in Kent. Sussex are good, but they have an advantage with the weather over Lancashire! We lose about four games every year to rain either in April or September (and four out of sixteen is much worse than four out of 162, and there’s no make-up games!).
It's kind of like Honkbal
except the pitcher has a running start, they use a flat bat and there’s less drinking than in softball but more than in water polo, those are the only differences.
All the drinking is in the stands at cricket matches
I mean, why else would you sit there for seven hours a day for five straight days?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 11, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I still prefer softball
I mean let’s go over the ground rules. You can’t leave first until you chug a beer. And then scoring, you have to chug a beer. You have to chug a beer after all odd-numbered innings. Oh, and the 4th inning is the beer inning.
Hey!
I know how to play softball.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 11, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I love that game
But what’s that about “bases” and “innings”. I thought chugging beer was the game!
Calvinball!

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Aug 11, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
whcih football team do you support
if any?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Manchester United
Though I can’t stand Alex Ferguson and I think his team selection is generally dreadful
As Mike Silva has purportedly made an appearance here...
… I think I should legally point out that in no way did I mean to imply that I wanted my feet to make actual contact with his ‘tween-leg appendages and that I was merely making a pun. Hope that’s cleared up.
yep
im afraid if I touched him I might get some anti “Sabermetrics” disease
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I loved that Ordonez part
He makes the assertion that Ordonez made some bad plays because he watched him every day and saw him make some bad plays. Did you watch every SS every game during Rey’s career? Can you compare the number of bad plays Rey made to the rest of the league during that time? What was the cause of those bad plays (bad positioning, poor range, footwork, throws)? How would you compare Rey’s defense to all other defenders in the league?
You can’t answer any of those questions with your GD gut. It’s not possible. Are defensive statistics perfect? Of course not. If people work on making them better, can they be useful tools in player evaluation? You’re missing the boat big-time as a journalist if you don’t think so.
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Aug 11, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Until GPS units
are strapped to players ankles, and we can count the exact amount of strides taken to a ball, divided by the amount of time and a meter-per-second speed is calculated, well I’m not giving credence to zone ratings or defensive metrics, so there! :)
You know what? YOU'RE RIGHT.
I was going to go to the doctor for this hacking cough and bleeding-mucous-membrane problem I have, but medical diagnostics has a ways to go before it’s a perfect field of study.
Fuck it— let’s go to the movies!
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 11, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This is unfortunate
The debate should be way beyond this level by now. We should be discussing what kind of advanced statistics we use and how we interpret them rather than discussing whether we should use them at all.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 11, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
so what stats should we use
I saw one blog used xFIP to show that Pelf is fine
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Ricco
Two scary things in that article:
(1) Ricco apparently was the brains behind the Francoeur-for-Church trade. Bleah.
(2) They compare him with Jim Duquette. Double bleah.
Obviously you don’t know much about Jim Duquette, who I have actually talked to about the Kazmir trade. I didn’t do a graph about him, but I talked to him, I know that is against the rules. As for Francoeur for Church, you guys continue to overrate Church. Those walks would really be helpful in an offense that can’t produce any runs.
If the team is 100% I could see your problem with the Francoeur for Church trade.
by MikeSilvaNYBD on Aug 11, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
keep speaking truth, dude
Getting on base sucks. That’s just no way to win.
Awesome journalistic access ya got there — getting to speak with Jim Duquette. You’re the envy of all of us.
Even working counts sucks...
After all, why would we want to get into the bullpen?
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 11, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
"I didn’t do a graph about him, but I talked to him, I know that is against the rules."
You are clearly trying to bait some kind of response and I guess it worked since here I am, but seriously what does accomplish? Wouldn’t it be better if you explained to erich, who doesn’t like Duquette, what you know about Jim and why you like him? Personally, I feel like he was undermined by Goldis, double crossed by Jeff Wilpon and probably wasn’t given much of a leash in Baltimore with their owner. I’m still on the fence whether he would have been a good GM without the restrictions, but it seems to me that you’re looking more for attention than joining the discourse.
by Sokojoe on Aug 11, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
+1
even though you got sucked into a response, +1 for the points you made.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 11, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you are 100% correct Sokojoe.
Jim won’t say anything about that, but the truth behind Kazmir for Zambrano and acquiring Benson at the time was that ownership wanted to reduce payroll the following year. Duquette needed more pitching to compete with a smaller payroll. Hence the trade for two controllable pieces. I am not sure he wanted to do Kazmir for Zambrano, but the situation dictated otherwise.
I am not defended Duquette, but I don’t think its fair to completely blame him as, you correctly point out, there were others in the organization with access to Wilpon
amazing how some things never change with the Mets?
by MikeSilvaNYBD on Aug 11, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately unless the Wilpons are forced to sell
or one of us comes up with a couple billion dollars or so I imagine things are never going to change.
That logic behind the Kazmir trade
might hold up, except for the fact that Kazmir was cost-controlled for a longer period of time, and was already, in 2005 (the year after the trade, when Duquette was concerned about being competitive), a better pitcher than Zambrano.
Not only that, if you think that’s unfair hindsight, Zambrano had already started to show that his strong performance as a rookie in 2001 was a fluke; he led the AL in walks allowed in 2004 (despite only making 22 starts for the Rays before the trade), and in 2003 had won the wildness triple crown, leading the AL in walks allowed, HBP, and wild pitches. His K:BB ratio hadn’t been any good since he was a rookie either. The writing was on the wall that Zambrano wasn’t a good pitcher, just like it was this past winter with Perez, and the Mets went for him anyway, just like they did with Perez.
So while I’m willing to accept the idea that the Mets made the trade because they wanted to acquire a cost-controlled pitcher to help them compete in 2005 (rather than the oft-repeated rumor that Kazmir was a pothead and the Wilpons wanted him gone), trading for Victor Zambrano was a terrible application of that logic.
The Benson trade was fine (Ty Wigginton was useful but was surplus with Wright coming up) but it’s extraneous to evaluating the Zambrano trade.
Duquette is an idiot
He keeps harping on the point that 5 years later his worries about Kazmir finally showed some posibilities of being correct, while blaming Zambrano on an injury that he didn’t know about. Just the fact that he still won’t own up to that mistake makes everyone here respect him less.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 11, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Calling Duquette an idiot is unfair
We have no idea how much power he actually had. Everyone from him to John Franco to Al Leiter to Rick Peterson was blamed for the trade. When that many people are blamed and there still isn’t a straight answer after all these years, it leads me to believe that it was the owners at blame. The owners are the only people in an organization that will always be protected. Duquette stated that the Mets believed Kazmir would have arm troubles, this was based on not only his size but scouting and the slow motion the pitch analysis that Peterson does with all his pitchers which showed stress in his delivery. Duquette stated that Zambrano was not the pitcher they thought they were getting. “[Peterson]said Al Goldis and Bill Livesey, special assistants to General Manager Jim Duquette, filed the scouting reports on Zambrano…Livesey persuaded the Mets that Zambrano had the potential to be a front-line starting pitcher” via NYT. Jeff really sided with the superscouts, I don’t blame Duquette for Kazmir.
He seemed to imply it was his idea during the trade deadline special on MLB network.
He kept pointing out that he was right on Kazmir, and just had bad luck with Victor. I never thought as little of him before hearing those comments. If he’d just say he screwed up and panicked (which I think everyone realizes) I’d have more respect for the guy.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 11, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't having someone on base better than not having someone on base
when you’re trying to generate runs?
Oy.
For gits and shiggles, I’ll grant your premise that OBP is unimportant on a team that “can’t produce any runs.” I mean, it practically makes my nose bleed, but, hey… concessions.
Church’s career slugging numbers kick the living crap out of Francoeur, especially over the last few years… but also DURING HIS ‘GOOD YEARS’. Do you not believe in slugging percentage?
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 11, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
whats slugging?
I only know wins, homers, rbis, and average
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah you "talked" to Jim Duquette
What did he say?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
let me elaborate a bit...
Since you ended up responding to a couple off-the-cuff comments of mine…
(1) Church for Francoeur: I don’t think this was necessarily a terrible trade, but it being good depends a lot on Francoeur learning to overcome his deficiencies, and he’s had a couple years to work on them with little success. I actually thought this was a great trade for the Mets when I first heard about it, because I hadn’t been keeping track of what Francoeur was doing in Atlanta and mostly remembered all the hype he was getting in 05-07. When I looked at his numbers, I saw two things:
(a) His good years were not as good as the hype suggested.
(b) Pitchers learned to take advantage of his weaknesses in 08-09 and he hasn’t adjusted.
Church is a decent platoon outfielder. He is who he is, and at 30 probably isn’t going to get any better. Francoeur could be something special if he learns to identify what pitches he can hit well and disciplines himself. He’s actually good at getting the bat on the ball — not too many K’s. But he hasn’t learned the lesson of “just because you can hit it doesn’t mean you should.”
It won’t matter at all what Francoeur learns this season, but next year it might.
(2) Jim Duquette. Yes, I have always assumed he was largely responsible for the Kazmir trade. If there’s some good reason I shouldn’t be blaming him, I’d be happy to hear it. But while on the subject, let me say that I suspect the Kazmir trade may be THE WORST TRADE THE METS EVER MADE in terms of actual effect on their reaching the post-season. I’m not saying that Kazmir is anywhere near the best player the Mets have traded over the years, where they did not get enough in return…but given that they missed the playoffs by one win two straight years, when Kazmir was pitching decently, and during both years the Mets spent some time trying out some extremely random (and not very effective) pitchers at the bottom of the rotation, I think it’s fair to say the trade probably cost the Mets two playoff appearances.
Wright gets the night off tonight?
Seems like San Diego would’ve been better, since they never win there anyway. So, basically no reason to watch tonight, cool.
why don't we give everyone a day off
we’re gonna lose anyway
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 11, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
First time for me this year
I turned off the radio mid-game, not because I was frustrated or otherwise busy, but because I was straight bored.
How it happened without JP Riccardi being fired yet
And how no one traded for him before the deadline if the asking price was nearly nothing?
Clearly JP had instructions to let him go
That can’t be purely a GM decision.
Good move for the Jays IMO
They get rid of that huge contract and can now afford to plug some more holes next year. Jays fans I know are ecstatic. They’ve really grown tired of his act.
According to Ricciardi, not a single team called before the deadline to ask about Rios or Wells. No one wanted to give up a prospect for that huge contract, and the Jays didnt want to eat part of the contract just to get a prospect in return. This is the best they could have hoped for.
I'm really kind of shocked about Rios
Is his new contract that bad, I know he’s having a down year but the guys put up all-star level performance 3 straight years before this and is only like 26/27 right?? I can totally understand not wanting Wells I want nothing to do with Wells but I just can’t see how absolutely no one was interested in Rios.
He's 28
And having his 2nd straight down year after it looked like he turned a corner in 07. His OBP is a dreadful .317, and he should be seeing plenty of pitches to hit with guys like Hill and Lind swinging like they are. He’s still a plus defensive player to the best of my knowledge, but his hitting has really fallen off a cliff. No one wants to pay $12-13 mil to a replacement level hitter who looks to be regressing.
Having a second straight down year?
How was 08 bad? According to WAR it was his best year. Plus his BABIP for this year is well well below his career average.
But hes wasn't teh all starz in 08
But in fairness he D carried him that year. His wOBA was down from .365 and .368 in 06 and 07 respectively to .350 last year
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
but still
Wouldn’t it have made a hell of a lot more sense to dump Wells’ contract than Rios’? If I were a Jays fan I’d be shitting myself right now, but I’m already busy doing that as a Mets fan.
ain't had enough...
He would want Wells with his contract?
I mean if no one was willing to trade nothing for Rios, why would anyone touch Wells?
Hell...
“How was 08 bad? According to WAR it was his best year. Plus his BABIP for this year is well well below his career average.”
I remember checking this out when poking through Fangraphs a few days ago, too… and being somewhat surprised.
I mean, let’s say he bounces back moderately next year. Isn’t a .280/.345/.470, 8-fielding-run-saving 4-5 WAR worth the salary, even if the commitment is more than ideal?
Considering what we’d likely have to give up for Holliday (money plus draft pick) might it not have been sorta-worth it to take the expensive gamble on Rios?
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 11, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Well considering the White Sox gave up NOTHING
I don’t think they’re upset they waited.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
I'm sure teams were interested
But probably wanted Toronto to eat some salary to give up anything.
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 11, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions

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