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Jeff Francoeur's "Change Of Scenery": Improvement Or Hot Streak?

Amidst complaints that Amazin' Avenue has been too Francoeur-centric lately, I decided to do the only thing I could do: write exhaustively about Jeff Francoeur. Actually, I've been tracking Francoeur's "progress" for a while now, since, sadly, he's one of the most interesting reasons to watch the Mets these days. While many here have fought to fight the notion that the Mets won the Church-trade, this article makes no comparisons, as that would be unfair to Jeff.

Despite your overall opinion of Francoeur as a player, one undeniable fact is that he's played better since coming to the Mets. He has a .334 wOBA with the Mets, a far cry from his horrid .278 clip with the Braves. Fangraphs shows the difference in RAR to be just 4.5, mostly due to his positive UZR fielding rating before the trade, and negative rating since. Considering, however, that a season of UZR has the statistical significance of a third of a season of batting statistics, and that Francoeur is a historically good fielder (7.3 UZR/150), the encouraging offensive results outweigh the purported poor fielding.

Generally, there are two ways to improve in baseball: fix the things you're bad at or get better at the things you are good at. Over the course of his career, Jeff Francoeur's relative offensive success has been determined by his ability to crush balls in his wheelhouse and buoy his OBP with BABIP. Frenchy has terrible plate discipline. Since joining the Mets, Francoeur's percentage of swings on pitches outside the zone, his primary failing, has dropped 2.5% from 35.5% to 33.3%. While that's better than no improvement, it's not significant enough to suggest a change. He would still crack the top-10 worst marks in the league. He has, however, improved upon his career 76.4% contact rate with 81.9% (2009 Braves) and 84.3% (2009 Mets). That improvement is significant, and is a result of both more contact on pitches in the strike zone and much more contact (+6%) on pitches outside the zone. If your going to swing at everything, hit some of it, I suppose. Still, his 66% O-Contact is middle-of-the-pack and Francoeur would be better off taking many more such pitches.

Assuming he could maintain all of his current production levels with the Mets (I'm not making this bet), he would post a .292 batting average, according to Carty's component batting average calculator:

AB C-Rate BIP+HR HR/FB FB% FB HR AB/HR BABIP BIP HonBIP H BA
108 84% 91 13% 40% 36 5 23 0.311 86 27 32 0.292

 

Brings back memories of his 2007 season...but raises a whole new set of questions. Namely: can Frenchman keep up his suddenly decent HR/FB%? Considering Francoeur never had any plate discipline, the true source of his offensive decline seems to be the steady drop in his HR/FB% from year to year. From 2005 to 2008: 17.1%, 15.3%, 9.8%, 6.5%. During his time with the Braves this season, he was on pace for a really bad 4.7%. Since joining the Mets, his HR/FB sits at a 12.2%, a number similar to his 2006 and 2007 seasons. Here's a breakdown of his ten homers this season using data from Hittracker online:

Team Pitcher Park Distance Elev. ° Horiz. °
ATL Meyers CBP 392 22.8 118.5
ATL Volquez GAP 407 21.1 94.3
ATL Hampton Turner 403 22.0 97.8
ATL Gregg Turner 417 28.9 97.1
ATL JOBA Turner 423 28.7 104.3
NYM Kensing Nats Park 399 28.5 103.8
NYM Byrdak Juice Box 376 31.2 121.1
NYM Jimenez Citi 389 29.7 106.3
NYM Garland Citi 394 25.9 103.3
NYM Sherzer Chase 406 24.0 107.1
ATL AVERAGE 408.4 24.7 102.4
NYM AVERAGE 392.8 27.9 108.3

 

The average distance of his home runs since joining the Mets is lower, which would probably suggest, if anything, that he may have been a bit unlucky pre-all-star break. Interestingly, the elevation angle of his dingers, the angle at which the ball departs from the bat relative to the ground, has been on-average greater. While this difference could easily be explained away as a tiny sample size quirk, Francoeur's ability to get more lift on his flyballs would definitely bode well for a sustainably improved HR/FB%.

One possible source of this improved trajectory could be the reported change in mechanics Francoeur has made since joining the Mets:

Sheffield instructed Francoeur to keep his top hand firm as he approaches the ball, and Johnson focused on Francoeur keeping his bottom hand on the correct path through the strike zone, so the bat can remain in the zone as long as possible.

Johnson also noticed that the occasionally fidgety Francoeur was rushing his swing.

-snip-

Since Francoeur had been tardy during the loading phase of his swing, he had to overcompensate by making his top hand dominate the action of his cuts. So Johnson told him to "just go up there comfortably, relaxed, take a nice easy stride and get that front foot down before the ball is out of the pitcher's hand."

Although I am normally suspicious of such claims, as easy explanations always follow good results, I decided to compare film on two swings he took this season, his homerun versus Edinson Volquez in April and his homerun against Ubaldo Jiminez in July.

Those of you running Netscape on Windows 3.1 should proceed with caution because there will be slow-mo .gifs ahead.

Star-divide

First the Volquez dinger:

3816199589_6d32ce9746_o_medium

Francoeur begins his swing pretty late, and it takes him several frames to plant his foot. He uses his bat-speed to swat at the ball and kind of jams it, causing it to barely clear the Great American Ballpark fence (and Willy Taveras' head). Notice how his swing begins with an open stance and ends in the position you would expect a Jedi to begin a lightsaber duel.

Now the shot off the young Rockies' ace:

3817014764_679d994ee8_o_medium

Note first here that he begins his stance more closed, as you can read the back of his jersey. Francoeur also seems to be leaning in quite a bit more. Hojo's advice must have gotten through, as he plants his foot a frame earlier, allowing the bat to take a much less forced path to the ball. Overall this swing seems to involve a lot less unnecessary motion and better coverage of the zone.

Here's a side-by-side breakdown of the two clips:

3816163855_06a6cc4ff1_o_medium

Not much to add, expect notice the difference in swing progression in two middle panels. It may look there that the difference could be the location of an outside v. inside pitch, but the final locations of each pitch were actually much closer together.

This new swing may explain his sudden dramatic success against sliders and changeups, his two previously most troublesome pitches, according to Fangraphs linear-weighted Pitch Values. Theoretically, more time to see the ball after committing to his swing, coupled with a cleaner path to the ball, would particularly help with two pitches that require more careful judgment. Indeed only one of his homers as a Mets so far has been hit off a fastball:

wincoeur_pana

Those four pitches, however, are pretty unspectacular according to the movement chart to the left, and all in his "wheelhouse" as shown on the right. So perhaps his success against non-fastball pitches is more a product of inferior opponents. Still, those four pitches are the type he needs to crush every time to be successful, and are probably four pitches he missed too often these past two years with the Braves.

Like most things, whether any of these improvements are long-term can best be revealed through time. Given the likelihood Francoeur will make in excess of two-million dollars through arbitration this offseason, however, the Mets do not have much more time to decide the fate of Francoeur. Given his platoon split (career lefty masher) , youth, and defense, I would be inclined to keep him. A young player like Francoeur that has the upside as a starter and the bizarre skills of a quad-A player seems to be a better use of a big-market teams 2MM dollars than Cory Sullivan and Rob Mackowiak. Due to self-imposed budgetary strain, howver, the Mets may have to non-tender him. Which would be a shame, since although I still think it's a hot streak, Frenchy seems to be improving. While he still exhibits the terrible approach that has prevented him from taking the next step in his offensive game, he may be reverting back to his perfectly serviceable 2007 levels. Next step: walking.

Comment 196 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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good article

I actually think they will keep Francoeur, because
A.) Riccio wanted him, and Riccio may be the GM or
B.) He’s cheaper than a lot of other people.
In arbitration, the Mets can argue that by not walking, he doesn’t help in scoring runs.

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Aug 14, 2009 7:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Well said.

Especially B.)

Oh by the way, Hello.

I’m happy to be finally able to participate here. I hope that I can contribute something intelligent to this blog in the coming days.

(and I know it’s common sense but since I’ve seen a poster or two not do it or refuse to, but I got myself familiar with all the rules and guidelines here so as not to committ any posting “sins”)

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I concur. You clearly put a lot into this. Kudos on the thorough analysis and balanced conclusions. Cautious optimism is pretty much how I get through the day.

by TheLetter2 on Aug 14, 2009 7:47 AM EDT reply actions  

I think that’s what this whole thing with Frenchy should be about. “Cautious Optimism”.

I concur with you, TheLetter2. That was an excellent thought-out analysis.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely Fantastic

Great and really useful analysis here. I’m also inclined to bring Frenchy back if we can get him signed for a reasonable number. His youth and upside are definitely still enough for me. We’ve wasted for more money on less useful parts in the past.

The swing analysis was particularly interesting. The other thing about leaning in versus being open is that I think it helps with both pitch recognition and balance. You just have to have really quick hands to pull it off. And Frenchy is blessed with that.

by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 14, 2009 8:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Okay, please re-sign him to a ten year deal.

If Dunn walks 30 fewer times, he'll drive in 15 more runs. This is thanks to the scientifically proven formula: RBI = (this is nonsense) (I made it all up).

Here's a stat: Wins as manager: Dusty Baker, 1,162; Bill James, 0.

by TradeAndruw on Aug 14, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

No thank you.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am

still rootin for a non-tender

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Aug 14, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

curious.

Are you a braves fan, by any chance? If you are, I guess you know Francoeur better than most here.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can never get enough GIFs

The article was good, but the GIFs were better.

by The 'Ropolitans on Aug 14, 2009 9:22 AM EDT reply actions  

The Old saying “A Picture is worth a thousand words” never rang more truer than this. Talking about him changing his batting stance and his grip on the bat is one thing, but actually seeing him in action and having a brilliant comparison is absolutely outstanding.

Now we can all see the actual improvement.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great job Sam.

And very much appreciated. There are a lot of very emotional reactions to Frenchy going on (on both sides of the debate, and I include myself in that) More of this and less Shrill is exactly what the doctor ordered.

by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 14, 2009 9:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting, trenchant analysis

But here’s the thing, what is the best case scenario for Franceour? He has three plus seasons under his belt and a 90 OPS+ for his career. So flip a coin, heads you get a .290/.320/.480 type season from Franceour with above average defense. That plays. Tails you get something like .260/.290/.420.

The Mets have benefited from getting plus offense from SS, 3b and CF the last few years, so we forget they have rolled out a whole bunch of fringy-average players in the corners. I just don’t think there is any evidence to suggest Franceour should be anything more than a second division starter.

by Jeffrey Paternostro on Aug 14, 2009 9:33 AM EDT reply actions  

But like you've said we haven't exactly been rolling out very good corner players

And unless they open up the wallet this off-season Frenchy might be one of the better options.

by Gina on Aug 14, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

better than what?

There’s a pretty good chance he’s not the best option the Mets have on the roster right now — much less in the larger organization already and/or easily available for little cost. The whole point of “replacement level” is that it’s relatively easy to find. When a player is well below that level, that does not make him a great option compared to anything.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who on the roster do you think should play over Frenchy?

Also, what do you think is our best options in OF for 2010 being that we are somewhat cash strapped.

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nick Evans, for starters.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nick Evans?

Really?

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Aug 14, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I about fell down laughing at that one. hahaha.

I would’ve understood if you said “Cory Sullvan” but Nick Evans? Where is Nick Evans now with the team injured as it is? Haven’t heard one peep about him since the early part of the season.

there must be a reason that he’s….you know…being ignored.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, the argument by appeal to GM authority works so well.

Especially in a team as seamlessly professional, from lower to upper management, as the Mets, if a player’s getting ignored or buried, it simply must be for good reason. If Jesus Flores was so great, why didn’t Omar protect him in the Rule 5 draft? If Ramon Castro was such a good hitter, why’d they deal him to the White Sox? If Scott Kazmir was so great, why’d they trade him for those magic beans? It’s flawless, this reasoning!

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey anonymous, easy with the nasty tone, man.

My point was that Squid brought up someone who we haven’t seen nor heard from in ages and said that he would play over an allstar RF’er. IMO, if there is someone who could play over Jeff, I’d rather it be Cory Sullivan ‘cause he’s shown not only the Defense, but the Offense to really help the Mets in the future.

And again, please don’t use that type of tone with me. It’s not appropriate. We are all gentlemen(and ladies) here.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it is. This type of abrasive-yet-subtle attacks on myself will get noticed sooner or later.

Please refrain from doing that, alright? We can have our arguments like civilized people.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could you use some facts to base your argument?

Like stats? Or .gifs like the swings above? Why is Cory Sullivan a major league baseball player?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

immediately with the “give me the stats” argument. Can’t I just say I have watched Sully’s performance on the field and made judgements based on that?

yes, I know it’s a very miniscule sample size but I feel more encouraged watching him in the Lineup than I was watching Evans back in the beginning. Neither are that impressive but Cory showed me more.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

What he showed you was athletic dives for balls

that a competent outfielder would have been under for 2 or 3 seconds.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well what can I say? I’m a sucker for Web Gems.

I guess I’m an ESPN nut. hehehe.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you agree that Sullivan has atrocious range?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

No.

As in, the dives are making plays that a better fielder would make routinely?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m guessing BNTHIS also thinks Jim Edmonds was a fantastic center fielder.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jim Edmonds?

Well he wasn’t awful. I’ll say that.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...actually...

to be fair, he wasn’t that bad. He had some good years.
And overall, Jim Edmonds kicked ass.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So just because someone played in an All-Star game years ago

he should start now? I’m sure Derrick Turnbow agrees with you.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. he should start because he’s better than Nick Evans.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evidence?

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh boy…

What has Nick Evans done to warrant being played at RF over Francoeur?

Jeff has done plenty. NIck? Not so much.

At least whenever he can find himself back up from the Minors-purgatory he is currently in.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

But your argument is a poor one

Jeff Francoeur has posted wOBAs below .310 in three of his five major league seasons, including this current season, and the previous one. He has been a below replacement level player. We can debate his “upside” and what “adjustments” he’s making, but at the very least, even in the majors, Nick Evans has hit ..341 / .407 / .512 vs LHP in his brief major league career, which matches up with his minor league splits. Francoeur doesn’t even do that well. He’s hit .288 / .333 / .467 vs LHP in his career, which is decent, but hardly eye popping, and is at just .300 / .319 / .409. Its very plausible that Nick Evans, shielded from his weaker platoon side, could be a more valuable player in 350-400 PAs than Frenchy could be in a full season.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would bet

that one could take any player on any team and make it so that the player in question is better than another player whom is not universally liked.

I think I understand what’s going on here.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

What?

Ok, fine. Do that right now with Francouer over Evans. Show us why he’s better.
There is no “bias”. Statistics do not lie. We’re using them to prove a preconcieved point, yes. But if the stats don’t match up, then the point wouldn’t have existed in the first place.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Deal

$100 bucks? Make Chris Woodward seem better than Dustin Pedroia

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why don’t you do that? I’m no expert in this.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won't because I can't

That’s the point.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

this sarcasm business is so confusing

Wait, you were saying the opposite of what you meant? Better watch your tone, buddy.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think your tone's a problem, there, anonymous.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

if only we had a special color for sarcasm

I can’t even tell who’s taking what tone anymore.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Well, that was cool."

“Are you being sarcastic, dude?”
“I don’t even know anymore.”

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 14, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

But...you just said you COULD do that.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

No I didn't.

read it again.

I said that “One person could….blahblahblah”. I didn’t say that I could.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait...what?

You said one…as in the phrase “anyone”.
Face it, you’re wrong, and now you’re backpedaling. It’s cool.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t face anything. I’m posting on a blog. hehehe.

But maybe you’re right. I am man enough to admit I am wrong.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not trying to hate here.

But by that last sentence, are you admitting you’re wrong, or sarcastically saying that WE won’t admit we’re wrong when, um, you know, we won the argument…
I just can’t read sarcasm in comments, haha.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah.

It’s alright, man.

When I admit I’m wrong. Guess what? I am Wrong.

If only Manny would admit that, too. hehe

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or Vernon Wells better than Shane Victorino.

I would LOVE that to happen. I hate that guy.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I heard the guy who spilled beer on him, turn himself in.

He shouldn’t have done that. He might’ve gotten away with it.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you're saying that

you wouldn’t have turned yourself in if you were him?

by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 15, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thing is

You’re making claims that just don’t seem true, and not really providing any evidence for them, just stating them as fact. Corey Sullivan has been worth a grand total of 0.2 WAR in 375 major league games. He’s the very definition of “Replacement Level”.

Nick Evans hasn’t been any better, but at least he has a cogent strength that makes him a player who, when deployed properly, seems like he could be about a 1 WAR player on a yearly basis, and that skill is torch left handed pitching.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find it amazing that many here find ways to make fringe players look better than players they don’t care for.

So if I said that I think Evans should not start over Frenchy, I’m wrong because you said so? Uh huh.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then give me evidence!

I have made no personal attacks on you my friend, nor have I claimed anything without providing evidence to back up my claims. You’ve given absolutely zero supporting evidence for your claim. If your not interested in facts based discussion, I recommend a hotline for people dealing with these kinds of deep seeded issues: 718-937-6666.

If on the other hand, you’d prefer and articulate and reasoned discussion, lets have at it then ;)

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whose Telephone is that?

If it’s yours, Let’s go out for a beer! I’ll buy!

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

WFAN

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe I should buy

Steve Sommers a Drink.

Steve Sommers and Me there, you here.

perhaps he should do a monologue on Francoeur and Sabermetrics. That sounds interesting.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll take a crack at this

Evans’ career numbers are .255/.301/.409. Not good. Yeah, he has good numbers against lefties, but that’s in fewer than 100 ABs. Plus he hasn’t hit righties at all. Maybe he could be good as a platoon player, but I wouldn’t assume that based on that sample. For now I’d prefer to see Evans getting some seasoning every day rather than sitting on the bench with the big club. I’m hoping he will contribute at some point, but I’m not holding my breath.

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Aug 14, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's valid

But the thing about Evans is, he’s really just not a great “prospect,” in that there’s little reason he’s going to become something drastically different than he is now. The platoon issue is very much in line with his minor league career. He’s hit .300 / .378 / .554 vs LHP in his minor league career, and .259 / .321 / .439 vs RHP.

I think the ideal way to handle Evans at this point is to keep him on the big league roster and get him into the lineup on most days that a LHP starts, be it in LF, RF, or 1B. Get him 300-400 PAs a year, hope he hits like .280 / .340 / .450 and try to sell high on him just as he hits arbitration.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only way that Evans

will find playing time on a big club is if he is traded to an out-of-the-way non-contending non-playoff team like the Royals.

Evans is not good enough to warrant playing just about everyday.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Niether is Sullivan or Francoeur

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I beg to differ on that

But then again, I differ with a lot of things.

I really love this place. This blog rocks!

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only way that Evans

will find playing time on a big club is if he is traded to stays on an out-of-the-way non-contending non-playoff team like the Royals Mets.

There, I fixed your comment.

by Eric Simon on Aug 14, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Darn.

Can’t help but agree. this is so depressing.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look at his line against lefties.

Neither Evans nor Francouer should be anything but a platoon player at this point.
Evans line against lefties since 2008: .341/.407/.512

Francouer line against lefties: 2008: .210/.273/.307
                                                2009: .300/.319/.409

Pretty obvious who’s better in a major league roster spot.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Frenchy was pretty putrid in ’08. He did somewhat turn it around when he arrived here.

I’m hoping he can continue that turnaround ‘cause I find it highly embarassing that Evans would be “better” than him at this point. Frenchy can be better and should be better. I’m crossing my fingers.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fact is, Frenchy has only really declined since he came up to the majors.

I still think this is just a hot streak. But hey, if he turns it around, he’s a serviceable outfielder.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't that what the Mets want?

I mean if they’re thinking of re-signing Delgado to keep the Powerbat in the lineup, keeping Frenchy on-board isn’t THAT BAD of a choice despite his poor stats on the Sabermetric side.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm actually with you

That it makes some sense to keep Frenchy, but its more a question of how much money he’s going to earn. If its more than a pittance, he’s not worthwhile. But if you were to sign Matt Holliday, the idea for RF is going to be more about having depth than a superstar.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

And let me ask you, though

Do you think Holiday would want to come here?

And if he did, can the Mets afford him?

If the answer to both is yes, then heck. Bring him here yesterday!

otherwise, I think it’s better to just give Delgado one more year to, at least, raise his value and take it from there.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh

I’m in the “Daniel Murphy till Evans and Davis can platoon” camp or 1B. Though an arbitration offer to Delgado couldn’t hurt. Then you either get him for a year and have lots of depth or get yourself a draft pick if he goes elsewhere.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basically a win-win situation

Provided that Riccio proves he has a brain in his head and not his butt like Omar did.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because Omar Minaya's a moron.

And yes. Nick Evans SHOULD be part of a platoon at the major league level next year, if we don’t sign someone such as Holliday, etc. He mashes lefties, plays better defense than someone like Sullivan, etc. Look at Sullivan’s UZR numbers. He sucks. Awful. Disgracefully bad.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

So let me understand this

You’re saying that Nick Evans is a better ballplayer than either Frenchy or Sully, even though he hasn’t played one lick for almost the entire season.

Omar being a moron isn’t really a valid reason to use as an explanation for Nick not being brought up. There is the possibility that perhaps Nick isn’t as good a player as you rate him, as in over-rate him.

Just saying.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cory Sullivan is the definition of replacement level.

He’s consistently averaged about 0.0 WAR for the last 5 years now.
And Jeff Francouer is currently half win BELOW replacement.
Admittedly, Nick Evans is not a starter in MLB, and probably never will be. But using someone with an MLB career line of .341/.407/.512 against lefties as part of a platoon? Perfectly reasonable, and valid.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you mean

“Not a valid explanation”. Here, I’ll validate it for you.

Either Omar is a moron or Nick Evans should not be on the major league roster
Nick Evans Should be on the major league roster

Conclusion: Omar is a moron.

Perfectly valid syllogism. Perhaps you doubt the truth value of some of the premises, but you haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary. You’ve only stated that “Sully and Frenchy are better than Evans,” a fact that we are in this case, also doubting the truth value of, and have provided at least a modicum of evidence for.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

+1 for teh logik

I’m just going to rec anything with a proper syllogism in it from now on. Bonus points if you can work “Socrates is a man” into a baseball-related argument somehow.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know if I understood correctly but

1)Johan is a man
2)Socrates is a man
Therefore, Johan = Socrates

by Michkin on Aug 14, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

-1

Faulty Syllogism! Undistributed middle!!!!

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Baseball is a sport.

NASCAR is also a sport.
You race cars in NASCAR.
Cars have wheels.
My favorite pasta shape is wagon wheels.
Pasta comes from grain.
Grain is eaten by birds.
“Birds” was the name of a movie by Alfred Hitchcock.
Alfred Hitchcock was from Britain.
Britain fought the United States in the Revolutionary War.
Therefore, Baseball=WAR

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

My head is spinning.

Darn you all and your syllogisms!

by the way, you can also say that Omar is a moron and Evans should not be on the major league roster.

Conclusion : I say both are true.

Thank you, Drive Thru.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well isn't he?

Blasphemy if anyone thinks otherwise.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha I know

I didn’t actually think you believed Johan = Socrates, though they’re both pretty high up there on my “awesomest people of all time” list.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Socrates is awesome

But he’s still wrong about the existence of a soul.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shhhhh

That’s fringe atheism, we can’t talk about that here. Besides, it was more than 2000 years ago, I can forgive him, especially since the coolest thing about him was his willingness to admit his own uncertainty.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually disagreed with him in almost every aspect of The Republic

but he was just pure awesome making everyone else look like an idiot.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bah, the Republic wasn't Socrates

Grown up Plato thought he could play philosopher too, except he was too cowardly to use his own name. This dualism nonsense wouldn’t have played with the real Socrates (at least how I envision him, since we don’t really actually know much about the “real” Socrates).

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you do not believe

that inside each of us there exists a soul?

then how do we exist?

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

No no

We can’t debate this here, we’ll all get banhammer warnings, its in the community guidelines.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Linky

DO NOT

    * Discuss politics or religion, period. There are lots of places on the internets to discuss these things so there should be no need for it here. You may think that everyone here agrees with you about something but I guarantee you that they do not.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know I have a soul

because the Mets continually find new ways to rip it out and crush it every year.

by cjmulrain on Aug 16, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

That -1 really hurt my feelings haha

Oh you meant another Socrates? [insert special color for sarcasm]

by Michkin on Aug 14, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see it as a false equivalence

Johan is an element of Set: Man
Socrates is an element of Set: Man

Johan and Socrates are distinct elements of the same set.
Johan is not identical to Socrates (he’s not even permanently pissed)

Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa

by GenJackRipper on Aug 14, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously, "replacement level" means just what it sounds like

Evans and Murphy, right now, are probably the best candidates; and there’s also Pagan. Francoeur is having a nice couple of weeks, but barring him keeping it up for a year, no animated GIF is going to convince me that his true talent level is better than what we see in his previous several years of sub-replacement-level performance.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Squid,

I’ll give you Evans, but I think his value is a platoon player vs. lefties, which in my estimation is about two starts a week. I like the idea of a Pagan/Evans platoon next year, but what do we do with the other corner outfield spot. We also need a back-up for Beltran who might have to shift to a corner outfield spot if he can’t run as well.

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but he should still be up.

And let me replace Pagan in that platoon with an Evans/Davis platoon at first at least halfway through the year.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would love to see Davis up next year

but I’m not holding my breath.

We probably will both agree the Mets will spend money on one major player and a couple smaller signings, where do you think it is worthwhile to spend the money and how does that effect our lineup?

I guess what I’m saying is that someone is going to be the odd man out between Murphy, Pagan, Evans, F-Mart, and Davis who do you think it will be?

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would kinda hope Murphy at this point, honestly.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we could get something of value

for him in a trade we should go for it. Since we can’t spend lots of money that may be our only hope.

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been saying that all along

Though not in such intelligent, detailed terms :-P

I dont really care if Frenchy has a low OBP and never walks, if he can mash 25 homers and play solid defense, he’s going to be an asset. The problem I had with the trade was that his power was completely gone the last 2 years, so what was left? Nothing. I think he fits in very nicely as a prototypical 6-hole hitter. Good power, drives in runs, but doesnt hit for great average and doesnt get on base much. Who’s going to drive him in if he starts taking walks anyway? Omir Santos? Unlikely.

The only problem I see with this is that once he gets his power stroke back (if he does, I should say), pitchers will start giving him junk to hit and he’ll continue swinging at it. Goodbye belt-high hanging curves over the plate, hello sliders off the plate.

by Steeeve on Aug 14, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions  

25 homers

While I agree with you generally, only once has Francoeur ever hit more than 25 home runs in a season. Two, if you want to extrapolate his 2005 season. Even if you go back two years ago to 2007, he only hit 19.

Heck, right now Santos has more IsoP than Francoeur.

by mnbv on Aug 14, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

True

Francouer’s home/away splits are really interesting. In 06 he hit .305 with 19 dingers at pitcher-friendly Turner Field, and hit only .217 on the road. Then in 07 he flipped the other way, hitting .316 on the road with 26 doubles and 12 homers away, compared to 12 doubles and 7 homers in Atlanta. Then again in 08 he hit only .216 on the road.

It was also strange to see he hit only .210 against lefties last year when he’s normally much better against them. What a weird dude.

by Steeeve on Aug 14, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

25 homers?

I would say 26 and a half is the magic cutoff point.
But seriously, a .320 OBP with 25 homers might be good for a second baseman. It’s bad for a corner outfielder; and French generally puts up OBPs around .295. If you’re a corner outfielder, it’s impossible to be valuable with a .295 OBP. If you hit 40 homers and played very good defense, you might be fringe-average. Dave Kingman was a borderline replacement player. And he at least could really hit home runs.

Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa

by GenJackRipper on Aug 14, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

His Defense

Was awful last year, and awful this year. More than likely, he is bad defensively.

Also, I doubt he is going to lose money in arbitration, considering, well, nobody makes less money in arbitration. So instead of 2 million, it could very well be 5 million. Considering we are cutting back on payroll this off season, that is no drop in the bucket.

Listen, Francoeur sucks. He’s run into a bunch of hangers during the hottest streak he’s had in the last several years, and his OPS is still only in the neighborhood of .815.

Also, he won’t be platooned. He’s an “everyday player.”

The second Francoeur is signed, 2010 is over. Not only we will be playing an awful player in right field, we will be committing 5 million dollars to do so. And it will also signal that Omar is truly retarded.

What helps this team more? A platoon of Rick Ankiel and Reed Johnson, which would cost a pittance, or Francoeur? You’d have somebody who actually mashes lefties, the power potential of Ankiel, and also would be adding two guys who can play all 3 outfield positions.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 14, 2009 9:43 AM EDT reply actions  

not to obscure what was a good post

I’m not trying to attack you, this was a very good post, and the swing analysis was awesome.

I’m just not nearly as optimistic as you are and am horrified by the proposition of him being in RF next year.

Also, he has had negative range in RF for 3 full seasons now. His awesome UZR in 2007 was a byproduct of an insane ARM #; his ‘range’ was still -.8.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 14, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

While 2007 seems a little flukey

I think you’re underselling his ability a little bit. Generally, bad offensive years are coupled with bad defensive years, so I think if he truly starts hitting again his defense will pick up. Also he could very well have a positive UZR this year with Citi Field park factors.

Another theory I’ve heard, but don’t really believe, is that all that muscle he reportedly put on before 2008 made him really stiff, both in his swing and as a fielder.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Aug 14, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Either he’s just bad or that you are refusing to look at any of the positives he brings to the Mets offensively and defensively.

And I know you’re going to say “What positives?” But I won’t answer ‘cause even if I did, it won’t change your opinion on jeff so nevermind.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh no.

Not this inane argument again.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is there really a correlation

between offensive and defensive stats? I’ve never looked for that or seen anything written about it. Have you seen any analysis that supports this?

One thing that I have noticed, is that a player’s career high and career low season UZR rating tends to be 5-10 runs above or below career UZR/150. Assuming that career UZR/150 is a good representation of “true” ability level, it’s quite possible that the low totals the last 2 years for Francoeur are just statistical noise.

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Aug 14, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

am i correct

that .815 is above the league average? So wait, he’s an above average hitter GASP! by some 60 points.

President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club

Fact on Villanova Sports

by Hoyadestroya85 on Aug 14, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

during his hot streak...

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

And OPS makes OBP and SLG equal when OBP is more important. SO OPS isn't a perfect stat by any means

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

It doesn't even really make them equal does it

Since slug is on a higher “scale”, that’s probably not the right word it can really skew ops can’t it?

by Gina on Aug 14, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That just makes every point of OBP

That much more valuable to the OPS scale, which is why OPS is considered tolerably accurate.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well it treats them as equal, but since it's easier to make your SLG higher, it skews the result of OPS.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

You need to account for positional averages

i.e. the average OPS for a rightfielder is much different than the average OPS for a catcher.

RF: .785
C: .715

If Francoeur could be assured of hitting .297/.336/.477 (as he has so far with the Mets) I’m sure we’d all be thrilled. My guess is that over a longer period of time he will regress towards his career line of .268/.309/.426, which is quite a bit worse.

by Eric Simon on Aug 14, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defense

I saw Frenchy make a couple of particularly crappy defensive plays here in Washington, but do we trust UZR numbers for CitiField yet? Do we know that Frenchy has even really been poor defensively for the Mets? It even rates Beltran as being far below average this year. Isnt there some thought that it takes a couple of years to figure out zone ratings for new stadiums?

by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 14, 2009 9:44 AM EDT reply actions  

For City Field, I would look at other defense stats too

UZR Hates The Mets Outfield

Frenchy RZR = .900 (251inn)
Average RZR for qualified RF = 908.8 (830 inn)

Also, for batting stats, his sample size is already small. For fielding stats, you need even larger sample (like one season).

by Michkin on Aug 14, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Improvement vs Hot Streak?

Francoeur’s wOBA in 122 PA’s since coming to the Mets: .334
His wOBA in the previous 957 PA’s: .283

Looks like a small sample size fluke to me.

by AceMcFlint on Aug 14, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions  

It's like the "RaysGeek" of crap.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 14, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was hilarious when they made it RaysGeek last year.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

In case of what?

Anyway, just so you know you are in charge of the two best Mets related sites on the web

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Metsblog would tend to disagree there, bub. Matt Cerrone is king of Mets fans, do you here me? KING!

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not true

I’m pretty sure the emperor has a blue long-sleeved button-down shirt.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 14, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope you guys do resign him.

"Actually, Justin was right."
by bigjoe on May 15, 2009 9:04 AM PDT

by justincredubil02 on Aug 14, 2009 11:59 AM EDT reply actions  

You had me up until the gifs

I’m into sabermetrics, therefore I don’t want to see footage of actual baseball being played. Cut that crap out, I want you to break baseball down to nothing but numbers.

/stereotype

by cjmulrain on Aug 14, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Mike Silva's mind just got owned.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

A stereotype that isn’t that far from the truth, especially here.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

What stereotypes are actually far from the truth?

The point of a stereotype is that you form a generalization based on a number of particular instances that seem intuitively true.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s best that I do not say anything further. Let’s just leave it at that and focus on the topic at hand and that is Frenchy McDelta, okay?

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mess with the best, die like the rest ;)

In related news, “Hackers,” still an awesome movie.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Come at the king, you best not miss."

-Omar

In related news, “The Wire” is the greatest piece of entertainment ever

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would it really be that bad...

to take a chance of about $3M on Francoeur, over paying $14M on Jermaine Dye, who isn’t even a run above the average replacement player?

by Syler on Aug 14, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

as a 4th-5th OF, maybe

I’m not sold on Francoeur even as a bench player, honestly, until we see some reason to believe he can consistently perform at or above replacement level. But maybe it’s worth taking a small gamble to see if he can demonstrate this mythical upside that other people seem to think he has — in AAA, if possible. OTOH, if he’s starting games more than once in a blue moon something major is wrong with the team he’s playing for.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would agree that that signing > a Dye signing.

But that’s like saying poop is better than shit.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's true.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point is...

there are really no good FA RF options for next year

by Syler on Aug 14, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well there's Holliday

I’d say he’s more of a rf option than Dye is. He can still move in multiple directions with out creaking.

by Gina on Aug 14, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

or Bay

At the right price, Bay’s still an attractive option.

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

The price is going to be high for both of those guys

I think Holiday will be at least 15-16 mil/yr and Bay should be 12mil/yr but he could make close to Holiday money.

Bay at 12mil a year may be okay because we could still get a starter and sign a cheap catcher, but anything more I think is too much.

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's something else to consider

what makes anyone here think that Holiday would want to come to this team? Or that the Mets could afford him?

In case anyone hasn’t noticed, our starting pitching blows!

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess it depends on what you mean by afford

I’m sure we can afford him. I just seriously doubt they’re going to spend big on any players in the off-season. I’ll truly be shocked if anyone noteworthy is added through free agency. At best I think we might empty the farm system in another 4/5-1 trade.

by Gina on Aug 14, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

I think the Mets are willing to bring in one big name player at about 12mil/yr

I also think a trade is a possibility, since we have a number of fringe major league players that we need to get rid of.

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Geez

You leave the internets alone for a few hours and all of a sudden BOOM! there’s a gigantic thread to catch up on. I suppose I’m glad to see that Meddler was able to get in on the fun this time, anyway.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 14, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm still trying to find a way

to prove that Chris Woodward is statistically better than Pedroia.

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do wish you luck

cos that sounds like it could be an all-nighter kind of project.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 14, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

And all because

I brought up a challenge that one could take any player on any team and make it so that the player in question is better than another player whom is not universally liked.

I think I created a monster. haha.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

well they're equal if you ask me.

The most important stat is definitely IFH% and they both have a 7.6%

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eureka

Chris Woodward was a met
Anyone that was a met is better than anyone who was not a met
Dustin Pedroia was never a met
Therefore Chris Woodward is better than Dustin Pedroia

Thats my final answer

by Delgado on Aug 14, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

:)

Its amazing how this place just absorbs an entire afternoon.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you allowed

to use that little smiley-face thing? Does that count as a Emoticon? I saw that emoticons were forbidden to be used when I read the rules and guidelines.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice!

Yeah we’re not supposed to I ‘spose, but I take it more as you’re not supposed to go:


OMGz :):):) I LUV GRIZSION, OMIR SANTOZ ROXZOR

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 14, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

YOU READ THE RULES AND GUIDELINES?

+20 respect points. Tell MetsGod to follow your good example next time.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Aug 14, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think I may have found MetsGod

He wrote an article on Bleacher report about Francoeur and called us the Sabermetric-Wrecking-Crew or something.

Strange guy.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way

I also like to go to Bleacher report just to see the cool articles fans make regarding the Mets.

As I was going through the articles, I couldn’t help but notice one in particular that referred to Frenchy and Sabermetrics.

I’ll post the link in a new fanshot so as not to hijack this thread.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Sweet...

Yes, definitely post a link to more Francouer sabermetric articles. That’s just what we need. ;-)

by Mex_17 on Aug 14, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

hehehe

I aim to displease.

Seriously, though. I thought by the title of it, I was expecting something more….um…thought-provoking but the only thing it helped provoke in me is a rolling of the eyes.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

leave francouer alone!

and i win the most dated pop culture reference of the thread contest.

Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.

by kendynamo on Aug 14, 2009 6:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Francouer 24/7 x 365...

You know what would be a cool complement to AA? A blog that occasionally discussed some of the other 39 players on the roster. Or maybe just the Mets in general.

by Mex_17 on Aug 14, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Would you rather talk about

how Barry Zito will throw a CG and how Matt Cain will no hit us

by Jadden Hopkins on Aug 14, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Lincecum will be perfect

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 14, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

See?

That is why we must discuss Frenchy more often. ’Cause Reality really bites the big one.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

You know what’s more boring than another article on Francoeur? Another comment complaining about how we don’t need another article on Francoeur.

(Especially when the articles have each been fresh, thoughtful, insightful, and interesting, written from very different angles, while the complaints have been insufferably repetitive.)

by anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

For once

I agree with you, anonymous.

Let’s cool it with the Francoeur stuff. Tonight was Parnell’s night(even though Frenchy got another RBI tonight. * yawn *) and that should be celebrated.

I know 2 starts don’t make it a career but if he can mold himself into a Major League pitcher, the sky’s the limit for the Kid.

by BNTHIS on Aug 14, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, agreed and rec'd

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 15, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

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