Concussion Applesauce - Wright To The DL, Draft Pick Signing Day, Wags To The Phillies?
by James Kannengieser on Aug 17, 2009 10:20 AM EDT
in Applesauce
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PrintLuis Castillo's bomb home run yesterday was one of the highlights of the season. He isn't the Mets' MVP, but is nonetheless having a nice year (at the plate at least; in the field is another story).
Meet the Mets
Daniel Murphy walked it off yesterday, but the real story was David Wright's placement on the 15-day disabled list. Hopefully he is moved to the 60-day DL. David is out of the hospital and resting at home. Ryan Church advised Wright to take his time coming back.
Alex Nelson at Mets Geek looks at the Mets 2009 draft picks on this signing deadline day. 17 of their 49 picks have yet to sign, including top pick Steven Matz.
Toby Hyde at the Mets Minor League Blog updates us on Ruben Tejada and Josh Thole's seasons, as well as their chances of being called up this September.
Metsblog reports that Billy Wagner should return sometime this week.
Centerfield Maz's Former Met of the Day is Rick Reed, a personal favorite.
As of now, there are no plans to retire Mike Piazza's #31.
Mets Police provides visual evidence of a statue outside Citi Field. Unfortunately it's not quite a Tom Seaver statue.
Bobby Valentine is looking for work, but don't expect him to be employed by the Mets as long as Omar and Jerry are around.
How could I resist this one - the Atlanta-Journal Constitution did a Q&A with Jeff Francoeur. My favorite exchange:
Q: Do you think the Mets want you to be any different?
A: No, they’re not there for my on-base percentage. It was great to hear [manager] Jerry Manuel in a team meeting say, "I don’t care about average. I care about scoring runs, driving in runs and preventing runs." That’s the type of guy I am.
No comment.
Around the NL East
The Phillies knocked off the Braves last night, 4-1. Ryan Howard drove in all 4 runs, hitting 2 homers. Brad Lidge earned a 1-out save, which I suppose was some way of trying to get his confidence back. He's been dreadful this year.
The Marlins split a doubleheader with the Rockies and are 4.5 games back of the Phillies.
Ryan Zimmerman led the Nationals as they beat the Reds 5-4, but the real story in Nats-land is the signability of wunderkind Stephen Strasburg.
Could Billy Wagner help the Phillies down the stretch?
Brett Myers claims his injury isn't related to a bar room brawl. Sure Brett, just keep changing your story.
The Cubs fan who showered Dick Torino with beer has apologized.
The Washington Post profiled the Nationals' wives and girlfriends.
Around MLB
Randy Wolf struck out 10 and hit a home run in a 9-3 Dodger victory against the Diamondbacks.
Carlos Zambrano admitted to being lazy.
It's pretty obvious that Joe Mauer has been far more valuable this season than Mark Teixeira. I don't understand why some think the performance of the 24 other players on a baseball roster should impact an individual award.
Congratulations to Derek Jeter for becoming the all-time hit leader among shortstops. He's having a fantastic season, and despite his "outtakes", is an awesome player and first-ballot Hall of Famer.
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Wait, Francoeur
Q: Do you think the Mets want you to be any different?
A: No, they’re not there for my on-base percentage. It was great to hear [manager] Jerry Manuel in a team meeting say, “I don’t care about average. I care about scoring runs, driving in runs and preventing runs.” That’s the type of guy I am.
But Jerry said average. I’m glad Jerry doesn’t care about average. He should care about OBP. He doesn’t say he doesn’t care about OBP.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Maybe Jerry was referring to wOBA?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 17, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
He couldn't be
since he mentioned preventing runs. My guess is that he was referring to WAR or perhaps WARP3 since Jerry knows that he really should adjust a players value to a 162 game standard less he undervalue players from the first half of the 20th century.
by Sokojoe on Aug 17, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
(slaps forehead)
How could I have been so blind?!
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 17, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha
Jerry doesn’t want to shortchange Pie Traynor and Wee Willie Keeler.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 17, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 17, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
well, Jerry is right, even if it's by accident
He should care about scoring runs and preventing runs.
Of course, Francoeur has no idea how to maximize his own ability to score runs or prevent runs because he is bad at baseball, but that’s another story.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Aug 17, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Late picks with commitments
Usually the team just wants more time to evaluate the player and decide if he’s worth buying out of college. Other times it’s unclear how much the player wants or how strong his commitment actually is (in some cases, kids bound for jucos get better deals elsewhere).
Remember, “safe” 40th round picks are mostly worthless.
by Alex Nelson on Aug 17, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
That Neyer Piece on Tex
is possibly the most intelligently written article about evaluating players I have ever read on ESPN.
I had to stop reading it after I got this far.
The MVP should be a player that contributes to a winning team, not possess the best overall statistics.
sigh …
And the worst part of all that
‘Cause I do think there’s an argument to be made for that position (I don’t agree with it, but I think it can be argued), but the worst part of it is that Fangraphs has Jeter listed as more valuable than Teixeira this year, so Teixeira’s not even the MVP of his own team. Isn’t it bizarre that Jeter is actually underrated this year?
Brewers Baseball and other assorted nonsense (mostly the assorted nonsense) at my blog, What's a Tararrel?
Meh I don't think that's terrible
I do think there are some exceptions especially for borderline play-off teams but I do think giving the MVP to players on incredibly bad teams seems kind of pointless.
No one player is good enough to take his team to the playoffs by himself.
The way the award is decided turns it into more of a team award.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 17, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not how the New York Giants think.
Hence Eli Manning’s absurd contract.
by OVERALLSPORTSFAN on Aug 17, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Manning's contract isn't as bad as it looks
When you take into account the rise of the salary cap. He’s paid on par with a guy like Matt Hasselbeck. I think he’s taking up about 10% of their overall cap room. Where as when guys like McNabb or Manning got their big contracts they were taking up about 20%.
Plus even if one player took the Giants to the play-offs I don’t think eli’s that one player.
Care to explain?
If a player is the best in that league, he is the most valuable player. Just because your team isn’t very good doesn’t mean your value is less.
Can you imagine how bad the Twins would be without Mauer?
It's harder in baseball just because teams rarely fall to the extremes of horrible record wise
so I’ll use football numbers. But I’ve always looked at it as if you’re team goes 4-12 then how valuable was the player really. Plus from a media/marketing standpoint if an award like that starts semi-consistently going to players on bad teams the story line starts losing a lot of luster/draw for fans. To me the twins wouldn’t really fall in the “incredibly bad” area though, since they could still pretty easily finish above .500.
That really doesn't make any sense.
Comparing it to another sport being basically your main argument is a bit illogical. Also, and MVP in football is usually a player that can influence a team dramatically. Those type of players don’t exist in baseball (ie like a QB in football).
The media/marketing IS why the award is often unjustly given out to certain players. The fact that they bias it toward undeserving players for monetary gain shouldn’t justify giving the award to only players on winning teams.
Oh i was only comparing it to another sport in terms
of record, I mean that’s what I mean by incredibly bad in terms of teams. And I think excluding media/marketing repercussions is taking the award too out of context. Major sports are after all businesses and monterary gain is always going to be a factor. Obviously it shouldn’t be the only contributing factor or a major one but it should play in. I don’t think there’s anything just or unjust about it
Isn't the NFL award called the MVQBorRB?
That is, the Most Valuable Quarterback or Running Back?
Look at these lists—the last non-QB/RB guys to win anything were Lawrence Taylor and Jerry Rice in the 1980s.
What’s silly about the MVP in football is that the game is actually is the ultimate team sport—no football player is good without good players playing their roles around him.
Baseball, on the other hand, is all about the collective achievements of individuals, and the MVP award makes much more sense in that context.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Aug 17, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but I think the problem is that there is no definition for MVP
I think the knee-jerk reaction by all statistically inclinded is that the Most Valuable Player is the player with the highest WAR. However, what happens in the case of say, there’s a player named Reyes and another player named Beltran with Beltran putting up a higher WAR than Reyes. However, if Beltran was traded or lost to injury, for the sake of argument, the Mets have uber-CF prospect who would put up 3/4 of the WAR of Beltran while if Reyes was lost the Mets had nothing and would put a sub-replacement level player. Wouldn’t there be an argument that Reyes is more valuable than Beltran since the lost of him would result in a greater WAR difference.
I think
a half-decent fudge position would be that the most pleasing MVP selection would be the one guy who carried an otherwise mediocre team to the playoffs. Not sure that would apply every year though… But Pujols in Cards playoffs years, sure.
So Beltran is a less valuable player because the Mets have a good CF prospect than he would be if they didn't?
I don’t buy it.
How exactly do you negotiate and sign all those contracts with 5 hours left.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 17, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I was trying to come up with a case where simple worth is not more valuable
It’s like if you had twp pieces of gold, A and B, and two pieces of silver, C and D. Let’s say
A = $20
B = $15
C = $18
D = $0
You can only trade in one of each but you have to either lose A or C, losing C would yield only $20 dollars but losing the more “valuable” A would yield $33. So, isn’t technically C more valuable because its loss would cause a bigger dropoff of money/wins. It all depends on your definition of Most Valuable Player is what I’m trying to say.
I didn't get any of that
try again
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Yeah, it seemed kind of shitty
Last attempt, a team has
CF – 5 WAR
CF2 in minors – 4 WAR
SS – 4 WAR
SS2 in minors – 0 WAR
Assuming CF2 in minors is blocked by good LF/RF, isn’t technically the SS more valuable to the team than the CF since the loss of SS would be a 4 WAR dropoff while the loss of CF would only result in a 1 WAR dropoff.
I understand what you're getting at
But I think this view, like the “you have to be on a contender to be the MVP”, places too much emphasis on defining a player’s value based on the players around him rather than focusing on the player’s contributions.
Frankly, if I were an awesome player on a crappy team (A-Rod on Texas), I’d be insulted by the implication that my contributions don’t have value because my teammates suck.
That's better
Okay. So yes the shortstop is more valuable to the team, but it’s stupid to punish/reward a player because of what his teammates do or how his franchise has constructed the team’s depth. MVP should go to the most valuable player, and the most valuable player is the best player. Is their any circumstance where Pujols wasn’t the best player in the game last year? Is there any way you’d rather have Teixera over Mauer this year? People try and use semantics to fit what they want. MVP is the best player award and Mauer is the best player in the AL this year and Pujols is the best player in the NL. They are your MVPs
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
I don't think the player is really being punished or rewarded
There’s no set definition of value, and it makes sense that a player thats less easy to replace is going to be more valuable.
I hear you and Josh
I think the MVP should just go to the best player but I also understand that there really isn’t a set definition of what the MVP is. I mean technically can’t the MVP be the player that accounts for the highest percentage of his overall team WAR since the team would be absolute garbage without him, which would give A-Rod in Texas a huge advantage. I’m just saying I can hear arguments for what the MVP award means to diferent people and agree with them because the award isn’t The Best Player Award, it’s some subjective award based on undefined value.
"the highest percentage of his overall team WAR"
well, but then a 2 WAR player on a team full of 0 WAR players would be your MVP, wouldn’t he?
This is how valuable is supposed to be interpreted.
MVP is Most Valuable Player in the league, value relative to the league, not to the team. Therefore, for the person to be most valuable in their league they have to be the best in the league. MVP is the Best Player Award, the only reason the writers say otherwise is so they can vote for who they like and the only reason fans say otherwise is so they can say their guy deserves to win.
In 2007 David Wright was the best player in baseball on a contending team but didn’t win because they liked Rollins, Holliday and Fielder better. In 2006, Beltran was the best player on the best team in baseball but didn’t win because they liked Howard, Pujols and Berkman better. The MVP is just about who they like, not about the meaning of valuable.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Wright was the best in the NL not baseball
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
Your making the jump that most statiscally inclined make
with this quote
Therefore, for the person to be most valuable in their league they have to be the best in the league. MVP is the Best Player Award
I agree that’s what it should be but please link me something that says that’s what it is.
People define value in different ways that’s all I’m saying, people have their opinion on what the award means and you have yours but you’re acting like it’s actually written somewhere that The Statistical Best Player wins the award which, again, I agree but that’s not what the award is.
I found this through google
The modern MVP Award was established in 1931, when the Baseball Writers Association of America began polling three writers in each city. The modern practice of two writers per city began in 1961. Each voter ranks 10 players from each league, their only guidelines being that all players are eligible and that the MVP is the player that is most valuable to his team.
“It’s not the best player,” said Gordon Edes, who covers the Red Sox for the Boston Globe. “It is the most valuable player. There is some ambiguity there.” And for that, the system is not perfect, though there is likely no way to make it so.
One of Los Angeles Times’ beat writer Mike DiGiovanna’s criteria is “if you take that guy out of a lineup, how good would that team be.”
Read the rest of the article here
I agree that the award is pretty pointless without any guidelines but it would be arrogant to say someone should win the MVP based on the guidelines of your choosing even if it’s logical. Besides even if we used WAR as I’m assuming you guys are suggesting, catchers could be getting either overrated or overhatted since there isn’t catcher UZR as well as RP getting screwed because of inadequate leverage consideration in WAR (Not that even with leverage adjustment a RP would be led in WAR.)
The thing I don't get then
is if it is value relative to the players team, how can they award a player and say he is the most valuable to the league. To me, that’s illogical. A league award should be based on the entire league, not the best of certain subgroups.
And on catchers, yes their isn’t any advanced defensive stat for them, but there are two things to counter that argument. One, you can use the stats we have, cs%, pass balls, etc and two, when focusing on total numbers like home runs, they aren’t getting the number of plate appearances to match someone who plays everyday. It is true it may help their rate stats, but it could also help others.
Oh, and lastly, my word is final. If I say up is down, up is down. So when I say MVP is the Best Player Award, it is the Best Player Award. Now apologize!
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
NEVER!
Anyways, I’m not defending the criteria for MVP (obviously) but I just wanted to point out that’s it’s not as black and white as it seems.
Now, the Cy Young is an award that is explicitly for the best pitcher. The writers easily screw this up by voting for a good pitcher on a team that is able to give them wins, shitting on that is something we all can get behind.
The most valuable player in the league
Could be construed anyway. Not necessarily the best player, maybe the player that brings the most media attention or something.
Yeah like literally the most valuable to his team
by way of selling the most jerseys and other money making means.
Concussion
When I read Larry Brooks’ article today, I thought he was being over the top in looking for ways to attack the Mets, but on second thought, he’s sort of right.
If you think about the rush to DL Wright, I’m surprised Omar didn’t make the announcement over the PA before Wright was helped off the field.
The problem now is what happens the next time another Met is hit in the head? If he’s not put on the DL immediately, everyone is going to be saying that the Mets only give stars that treatment.
head shot => 15-day DL
sounds like a good rule to me.
The NFL’s treatment of concussions is a PR Chernobyl coming in about 10-15 years. We’re going to have dozens of hulks doddering around like Muhammad Ali and the suits are going to say “Nobody Could Have Known” and “The Science Wasn’t There” like the tobacco executives in front of Congress.
MLB could try to get ahead of a scandal for once. No one is going to object to this.
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"
by hotspur on Aug 17, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Have you forgotten who's in charge of MLB?
Bud “The Muppet” Selig.
by OVERALLSPORTSFAN on Aug 17, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
"...I thought he was being over the top in looking for ways to attack the Mets..."
Isn’t that the Post’s raison d’être these days?
Happ is decent enough, but I'd guess he's due a pretty large regression.
Travis D’Arnaud is the guy I’d be looking at (as far as reasonable targets).
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 17, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
piazza's number
i tried reading through the comments on the metsblog post but my head exploded.
Why won't they retire his number?
I’m sorry, but if the Pirates can retire Billy Meyer’s number, the Mets can do a hell of a lot more than just Seaver.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
the devil rays
retired boggs number and the yanks and sox didn’t.
piazza was a great met, he should be honored by the mets. the talk about his contributions as a dodger or over his whole career matter only for cooperstown.
It's supposedly pretty decent.
I’d love to see the Mets be patient there though, and not rush him up next year.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 17, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
If he's 23 next season
is that really rushing him? He should probably be at Buffalo right now. If he was 19 or 20, I’d understand, but they are extremely weak at that position, if he can win a job in spring, and help them, he should make the team.
Catching is a position where defense is at least as important as offense.
The fact that he’s 23 is not very relevent due to the fact that they had him playing 1st base for the majority of his time in the minors. Think what could have happened if the Mets had allowed Murph to learn how to play the outfield in the minors where there wasn’t as much pressure to make every play.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 17, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd much rather take a long term approach and try to resign schnieder for a season.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 17, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Castillo not the MVP of the team
but he is possibly the only player on the team to outperform his pre-season expectations.
Socks
Striking out Albert Pujols was the highlight of the season.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
IMO
If a player gets hit in the head, he should be able to pick a teammate of his choosing to kick the accosting pitcher in the groin as hard as possible. I think this would serve as one hell of an incentive for pitchers to get their pitches under control.
by OVERALLSPORTSFAN on Aug 17, 2009 3:14 PM EDT reply actions
+100000
I agree wholeheartedly
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 17, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder how Jeff Francouer feels about the new helmets now?
by OVERALLSPORTSFAN on Aug 17, 2009 3:14 PM EDT reply actions
Mr. Francoeur...Are you sure?
“No, I am absolutely not wearing that.”Mets outfielder Jeff Francoeur told the Times after seeing a prototype model of the S100. “I could care less what they say, I’m not wearing it. There’s got to be a way to have a more protective helmet without all that padding. It’s brutal. We’re going to look like a bunch of clowns out there.”
by OVERALLSPORTSFAN on Aug 17, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully Wright has fired Jerry Manuel and Omar Minaya
by TheBigStapler on Aug 17, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Hahaha.
+1
"I was so frustrated [Saturday], I [could have said] anything," ~Oliver Perez
by Lance Johnson on Aug 17, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Or he lobby for his job.
Just know, if there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
How will the Strasburg situation effect the Mets next year?
If he signs, will the Nats be able to afford Harper next year? If not, how far will he fall. If he doesn’t sign, how far will Strasburg fall and will other teams be willing to take a chance on him or Bryce Harper knowing Boras wants a ridiculous amount of money? If we can get one of those two, this season will be a lot less painful, though I’d still rather be going to the playoffs.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
After failing to sign Crow last year
it would be really sad to miss out on Strasburg. If they can’t sign him (for the 12MM+ they’re reportedly offering), I hope it becomes a call to action for the league office to modify the draft system. It should be better to have the first pick than the 2nd or 3rd or 4th. If you know you can’t sign the best available, that pick becomes no more valuable than the subsequent ones.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 17, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
If the season ended today
The Mets would have the #10 pick. If Strasburg doesn’t sign, the draft will be one great player deeper but I doubt, assuming their values stay somewhat the same, that either he or Harper will fall that low.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 17, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I didn’t think of that. Is that how it works? Or do they get a guaranteed sandwich pick? I just counted backwards in the standings.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 17, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Then we'd have the 11th pick!
This would also be before any modifications from signing Type A agents.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 17, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I definitely think there's a major problem with the draft because of the unbalance of resources in MLB
But I don’t understand how the Nats can’t afford to sign him. They’re obviously not incredibly popular but they definitely have much better resources than almost any small market teams. I would imagine their inability to sign him has more to do with him having outrageous contract demands.
I think two good changes to the draft that could be made right away
1. Allow teams to trade draft picks.
2. Make the signing deadline a lot sooner.
by TheBigStapler on Aug 17, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Mets draft list (until now)
How exactly can one expect to score runs
with people not getting on base?
"I was so frustrated [Saturday], I [could have said] anything," ~Oliver Perez
Forgive me, for I am a fool
Despite all contrary evidence, I don’t think Strasburg will be the superstar everyone expects him to be. /ducks
Good for the Nats...
I’m trying to find out about Matz, but I think BA crashed.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Aug 18, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
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