Wagner Applesauce - Sheffield gives Mets headache, Wagner dominant, Livan gone, abolish the draft
by Joe Budd on Aug 21, 2009 7:54 AM EDT
in Applesauce
70 comments
That was pretty cool. Enter Sandman and everything. What a useless luxury for a crappy team, two outstanding lefties out of the bullpen. Big picture, Joe, big picture. Maybe our next competent GM will be able to do something with these pieces.
Meet the Mets
Some roster drama yesterday for New York. Prior to last night's game, Gary Sheffield asked the Mets for an extension. Upon the Mets turning down that tempting offer, Sheffield pulled himself from the lineup and reportedly requested to be cut or to be traded to Florida. After all was said and done, Sheffield pinch hit and struck out last night, but was unavailable to reporters following the game.
The Mets have apparently been interested in dealing Sheffield, but have asked for top talent in any deal.
In case you didn't hear, Billy Wagner made his 2009 debut last night and was impressively dominant.The Mets finally cut ties with Livan Hernandez in order to make roster room for Wagner.
What to do with Wagner is another source of potential roster angst. Hot Foot compiles a list of teams that make some sense, if the Mets made a deal. But, Hot Foot also realizes that it could be a good gamble to keep Wagner this year as an audition for his free agency and possibly acquire some draft picks for offering arbitration.
It's unanimous, the Met 2009 draft sucked.
The Mets finally retaliate for David Wright's beaning.
Around the NL East
Cliff Lee continues to be awesome, just like the Phillies. I can't believe I toyed with the idea at the beginning of the season that the Mets were even in the same class of organization as Philadelphia.
The Phillies got more good news with Brett Myers striking out the side in his first rehab appearance.
Josh Johnson was not his usual awesome self and the Marlins fell to the Astros 4-1.
Anibal Sanchez has returned to Florida after injury. But, Nick Johnson has continued to be hurt.
Hunter Wendelstadt apparently changed his mind on a swinging strike/foul tip call, bringing Garrett Mock back from nearly the dugout steps and consequently allowing an RBI hit by Carlos Gonzalez, the turning point in the Nationals' 4-1 loss to the Rockies.
The body of an illegal immigrant was found on an unused portion of Chipper Jones' Texas ranch.
Around MLB
Dave Cameron has a convincing reform for the draft: abolish it and have a capped salary auction.
Justin Morneau will see a specialist to deal with his ear infection, which has already cost him three games.
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I'm already preparing myself
For the Mets just giving Wagner away just to get rid of his salary this year and buyout obligation for next year. The Coupons will truly earn their nickname if this is the case. I think this will be another good litmus test to indicate how the Wilpons personal financial situation is doing and how it relates to the Mets.
It’s easy, you either trade Wagner for a good prospect(s) this year, pciking up some of his salary in order to secure the deal, or you let Wagner showcase himself this year, and then offer him arbitration next year, collecting the picks when someone signs him away to be their closer.
And then cringe when Wagner is better over the next 2 years than Frankie is.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 8:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
this is exactly it.
I think you hit the nail on the head and the Mets give him away for a middling prospect to avoid paying his buyout and having to take the risk of him accepting arbitration (which I see as a non-risk, because he wont accept).
by mets81 on Aug 21, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as long as bb-rod is blocking him theres no way he accepts arbitration
and there are plenty of teams that could use a closer upgrade. If we have to get rid of Wags (unfortunately more likely than getting rid of BB) i hope we at least get a solid prospect for him.
by KeithsMoustache on Aug 21, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im actually kind of hoping they dont trade him
because a trade is easier to screw up than offering him arbitration.
Although the absolute worst case scenario is picking his option up then trying to trade him, but I don’t see the Mets risking that kind of cash.
by mets81 on Aug 21, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if the Mets told Wags
That he’ll split closing duties with K-Rod? McDowell and Orosco shared closing duties. They could each get 20 to 25 saves.
by David G on Aug 21, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wags might go for it, but I bet K-Rod wouldn't
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we could also
Tell Wagner he’ll be used as the relief ace, not getting as many stats, but overall more important to the team. That way Frankie can’t get mad when he gets put in 3 up in the 9th.
ain't had enough...
by BlackOps on Aug 21, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's assuming he can get through waivers
Teams may block him just to keep him from going to a competitor. And it’s possible Wagner could accept arbitration, if his arbitration number is high enough and force our hand to trade him.
by Gina on Aug 21, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a big risk but
you can release an arbitration player at least 16 days before the season starts and “only” pay him 1 month’s prorated salary. So if he gets 9M, you’d have to pay him 1.5M for nothing. That’s the worst case scenario and it’s not great but weighed against the best case scenario, it’s not that awful.
And since Wagner doesn’t know how much he’s going to get in Arb, he’d be risking alot too by accepting. He could end up “underpaid” and in a role he doesn’t want. The Mets wouldn’t be the only one gambling.
by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 21, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitration
I think it’s HIGHLY unlikely that Wags would accept arbitration, and it’s certainly a risk worth taking. It’s not like we spent on player development this year.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol unfortunately that's true
But we think its a risk worth taking. Do you think the Wilpons will with K-rods huge contract escalations looming?
Also I wonder what’s going to happen with Putz I assume we’re not going to pick up his option.
by Gina on Aug 21, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Putz
I also think we’ll just let Putz go. There’s certainly no way we’ll exercise the option, even to try and move him. The question is, will anybody give Putz what he is looking for (closer and $$$)?
Is it possible we could actually re-sign him in that case?
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That;s more what I was wondering whether we'd end up resigning him
If he and Wagner leave then we’ll still have pretty shaky bullpen after investing a crapton of resources in it.
by Gina on Aug 21, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he's going to be a type-a free agent
then we should hold on to wags and offer arb in the offseason. worse case scenario, wags accepts, and we pay him something like $8 mil, which is what putz would have gotten with his option year if he hadn’t sucked this year.
no way we get two first/second-round talents in a trade.
by englishgrey on Aug 21, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go ahead then, trade Sheff to Florida
Maybe we can get Nick Johnson for him!
by JoshNY on Aug 21, 2009 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dave Cameron
I really like his idea. I don’t see Selig going for it, or anything like it, but its a sound plan. Anything to cripple Scott Boras
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
his idea
stinks. and he’s one of the most overrated blogosphere voices out there.
yea, and fuck scott boras! he’s good at his job, and that’s immoral.
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And he can still be good at his job under Cameron's
plan. In fact, he can be significantly better, because he would be competing with the whole league, much like he does in free agency.
by Joe Budd on Aug 21, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His idea does not stink.
I think it’s a good plan.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 21, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why?
capping the top 5 teams spending to 2 million? that is lunacy!
any cap is insane.
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it insane?
You might not agree with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s insane. It works pretty well for the NFL.
by Reg Dunlop on Aug 21, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the two sports
are in no way analogous.
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what?
You said a cap insane. Why is it insane?
by Reg Dunlop on Aug 21, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for numerous reasons
i feel the burden of proof is on the other end.
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so we should need to have proof in order to validate your ranting?
I’d be interested to here a coherent argument about why a cap is bad, but until you can do better than just calling it insane, good day to you sir
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because
it doesn’t solve any problems that are on hand, except by unfairly limiting teams that have earned the advantage of using their financial wherewithal?
the tampa bay rays would be crippled, as their recent success would give them the honor of being only allowed to spend a paltry amount on the draft, crippling their pipe-line of young, cheap talent.
how’s that for starters.
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It only limits them as far as developing amateur talent
It places no controls on their ability to use their money elsewhere, in FA, trading or otherwise. Yes the Rays and similar teams might suffer, but they got where they did by drafting smart with what money they have, I really don’t think that capping their spending would unduly impact them except maybe forcing them to sign 1 or 2 fewer rookies a year.
While I like most of Cameron’s plan, I do happen to agree with you that his stepping plan for how much to allot to each team does leave something to be desired. However, I still think the idea is sound. Yes there are a lot of widening gaps between big-money and small-money teams in this league, as well as other issues of inequality, but I still think that you are overreacting. This is a good, workable plan in theory which just needs some refining to be good in practice
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not taking the bait
I have better things to do with my time
by Reg Dunlop on Aug 21, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For numerous reasons...
that you won’t name.
Check and mate, my friend.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 21, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think its an ok plan
but it just seems to complicated for owners of MLB to do without messing it all up.
I feel like the NBA draft has a good take on how to pay the rookies… something like that should work… which would be a hard slotting system.
Slotting works, it just needs to be enforced.
by gbaked on Aug 21, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's the problem, I don't see Selig being able to enforce it
There are too many people who stand to gain by not enforcing it. that’s why I like Cameron’s idea since it gives everyone an equal shot (or as equal as possible given some teams-read Yankees-greater resources)
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing I see happening
Better players sign with high value franchises for less money on the assumption that they could pay them more during their arbitration years. It would be a risk because you give up guaranteed money at signing, but you might get a lot more later on.
by Reg Dunlop on Aug 21, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats a big thing
i dont feel like you can give the draftee the ability to pick the team.
by gbaked on Aug 21, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough to both of you
I was reading the article again and their a few flaws with the plan, but I still think it works just as a place to start the conversation. The gap between big market and small market teams in this game is so huge and i think Cameron is moving in the right direction, although he definitely needs some tweaking
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
two studies on catcher defense
both love omir santos.
lol omar is so dumb, he likes santos! omg! hahahah!
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that second link doesn't work
there you go
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I have things to take my mind off of the Mets
England got Australia out for 160 in the ashes.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 21, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey Australia!
Are you England in disguise?
Seriously, though, what a way to blow the drama of this fifth Test. At least I am free to concentrate on the last day of my Black Caps taking on Sri Lanka . . .
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 21, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
It’s not over yet, two wickets down already…
by deadspy3 on Aug 21, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha indeed
I got an email from a buddy of mine in London that said “Surely the Ashes are ours again, yeah?” just before those two wickets fell. It is, after all, the England and South Africa cricket team.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 21, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Chipper Jones apparently has John Rocker working on his ranch?
by WebBard on Aug 21, 2009 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just saw a story about a man that died on Chipper's farm
That’s messed up
by Jadden Hopkins on Aug 21, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No sense of humor? I only said it cause the guy was an Illegal Immigrant.
by WebBard on Aug 22, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rosenthal and Heyman both report
That Wagner has been claimed off waivers. Three days to make a deal, if they choose to.
by The 'Ropolitans on Aug 21, 2009 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank God
We pitched him last night so people knew to claim him and we lost all leverage!!!!!!!!!!
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
So you are defending Jerry?
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for what?
pitching wagner last night?
i sincerely doubt it was his decision.
what are you complaining about?
that by letting wagner demonstrate he was good before he cleared waivers, we lost all leverage?
people have been watching him pitch in the minors for weeks now. you think one outing in the majors is going to change their opinion?
by firejerrymanuel on Aug 21, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ummm
Yeah, I think one outing against major league hitters would have a big impact on their opinion.
Sorry if my complaining is annoying you. WAHHHHHHHH
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why
do you feel that way?
I thought it was necessary to show he was ok so teams would claim him. Maybe we can get a good prospect for him?
Do you feel that they shouldnt have shown him so we can go the arbitration route?
by gbaked on Aug 21, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
We would have more leverage if nobody claimed him and then he pitched lights out because then we could trade him to anybody whenever we wanted. And Wags has to approve the deal, too. So if the claiming team is not someone that Wagner likes, he’s not going anywhere. If he wasn’t claimed, our chances of moving him would be much better, and we would have much more leverage.
Now, we have 3 days to work something out with a team, and that’s only if Wagner even approves.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little confused
Are you saying they should have put him on waivers before they brought him back on the assumption that no one would claim him and then he could have been traded to anyone?
by Reg Dunlop on Aug 21, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just sayin
They should have just not pitched him until he cleared waivers. They couldn’t put him on waivers until he was on the 25-man. It’s only like, what, 2 days?
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Not saying that Wags would have even cleared waivers then. But he would have had a better chance.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i doubt it
he was looking good in the minors.
Someone would have claimed him
by gbaked on Aug 21, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got it
And I agree. Even if he was claimed they still would have had three days to showcase him to demonstrate value.
by Reg Dunlop on Aug 21, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok...
i see your point.
thats kinda a catch 22… if he didnt pitch, would the team that picked him up be more likely to give up a good prospect?
mets: we want prospect a from you for wags
other team: well, we havnt seen if wags can do it at the Major league level yet, so we will only trade you prospect b.
I cant see wags turning down a deal to a contender. why on earth would he? I just hope the mets dont cave and take what is worth less then the draft picks we would get.
by gbaked on Aug 21, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Like Reg said, they would have had 3 days to showcase for a trade if a team claimed him.
I’m not really crushing the Mets, I just think it would have been more prudent. It just sucks because if we would have snuck him through, I really think we could have gotten a nice deal for him.
If we salary dump him, the fans should riot. I’ll throw some fireballs from here in DC.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 21, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from the fox article
“The Cubs, in dire need of a closer, are not the team that claimed Wagner, according to a major-league source.”
also of note:
“The Mets will be reluctant to include money in a deal, according to a source with knowledge of the club’s thinking.”
Of course they would not. because taking on 3 million bucks to maybe get a top prospect would be very against the mets way of not doing things to help the team.
by gbaked on Aug 21, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Cubs have some money to spend...
And would be first in the backwards list to pick a guy off waivers.
by The 'Ropolitans on Aug 21, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
two things
a) Omar either thinks he can get a good deal for no money on our end or
b) The Wilpons are being stingier than usual for whatever reason. Perhaps the ruminating here and elsewhere about their lack of funds is closer to the truth then we thought?
For the record, I think we should do whatever necessary to get the best possible deal for Wags, if a deal is too be made, our FO just doesn’t have a track record of doing things in a logical/intelligent manner
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i just hope
they dont take a AAAA player for him because that player can fill a hole for us this season.
they need a stud for wags. if not, then offer him arbitration and take the draft picks.
by gbaked on Aug 21, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed one hundred percent
fortunately I think it might have finally dawned on the front office that we aren’t winning this season, but I could be mistaken. I hope to God i’m not though
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 21, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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