Omar Installment II: Would This Have Been Too Much To Ask?
This isn't second-guessing. This is an illustration of how a GM who was not incompetent would have thought the '08-'09 offseason through. Any one of us could have thought this through and not laid a turd in the '08-'09 offseason.
Oliver Perez? His fastball has been losing velocity since 2004, and if it dips any more, his control problems will do him in and he could very easily fall short of replacement. (Good thing I know what replacement is!) Let someone else waste $4M on him. We could use the picks to beef up the farm.
We need a relief ace pretty badly. Our bullpen is a train-wreck. Feliciano was more unlucky than bad and has a solid track record of being able to eat lefties and hold his own against righties. So we will hold on to him (unless a no-brainer comes along). What...somebody wants to give me a warm body for Schoenweiss?? I would have settled for a cold body that somebody needed to bury. Done! OK...back to business. Frankie is an obvious choice, and we've got the cash for him, but he's coming off a career year in a meaningless category that might inflate his price tag disproportionately as compared to his real value. We'll offer him what I think he's worth...$4M/year for three years. If someone wants to give him more, let him risk it. If it doesn't happen, we've got a solid guy in Fuentes and we can outbid the Braves (by just enough) for Rafael Soriano. Trading Heilman would be selling real low...but his trends are not good, so we'll shop him. One more year of sucking and we can simply trade him for a french fry; (he doesn't make much money).
Hmmm...the Mariners have something interesting on the table. Putz for a boatload of average prospects. Obviously this will require some negotiating. Chavez for Reed isn't happening, but I can deal with Smith for Green. And he is not getting Carp, Carrera, Vargas, and Cleto (maybe in 2007). Considering the contract and the possibility of damaged goods, I'm keeping Carp..and he can take or leave the rest. If Putz does well, I can get picks for him in 2010 when he leaves for free agency. If he falls apart, such is life.
Hmmm...Lowe wants a fourth year, and at his age, that's probably going to bite us. If we want to win in 2009, we'll need to pay that price (the Braves are looming). If we play for 2010, we can pass on him and get some stopgaps. Odalis Perez and Randy Wolf will be solid options for a year or two, and if Jon Niese dominates AAA, either one will be easy to trade (especially considering the bargains that these two underrated pitchers will get us in this market). By 2010, F!Mart will be ready It depends on what we'll play for, but they're both good options.
Which do we take though? 2009 is risky. The corners will be weak no matter what, Delgado is at a constant risk of tanking, and the Wilpons will not dump Castillo. But it has good potential if things break right. If F! and Niese don't work out, 2010 could quickly turn into 2011 or longer, and Lowe will be solid for at least 2 years, so I'm inclined to go for Lowe, and we'll still have Ollie's pick to compensate. Santana, Lowe, Pelfrey, Maine, and Wolf will be formidable for a good chunk of time. Santana, Mejia, Holt, Pelfrey, Maine, Gee and Niese, in the long run? In addition to any surprises, drafts and minor-league trade acquisitions along the way? I like it.
Corner outfield...it's weak and Danny Murphy is way too much of a regression risk. Ibañez? Type A? With that kind of defensive liability for a very good (not great) hitter at corner outfield? OK, he's in an extremer pitcher's park but the bad outweighs the upside here. Do we want to take the kind of risk with Parker Bro...*ahem* Milton Bradley? Delgado's a risk and he can fill in (poorly) at second if it comes to that. Abreu, Burrell and Dunn are the best options, and Burrell is being lowballed by Tampa (and he was not offered arbitration!). That clinches it. Burrell it is. Murphy will be a (potentially super) sub to spell Burell against tough righties and back up Castillo in case he tanks. (We will let him sink or swim at second.)
If that's not enough we can shop Murph. He's killing the winter league and someone might bite. We could package him (with Carp, say) for a guy like (Lord willing) Adrian Beltre?
So what am I doing for the short term and the long term?
Short Term: Nice rotation. 3 of the best studs in baseball at premium positions. Church has a mediocre bat for a corner outfielder, but his glove makes him an average player, and Burrel should be adequate. Delgado with Evans to spell him against some lefties? Let's cross our fingers. Castillo? If he tanks, we might have to put Murph in that position and again cross our fingers. With Fuentes, Soriano, (perhaps K-rod) and Feliciano back in form (and without Schoenweiss) our bullpen should rebound (statistically, it's a certainty). And Parnell and Kunz could mature. Bench: Endy Chavez and some easily acquired strong backups. With our 4 superstars, we always have a chance. Estimated Cost: about $100M, but well-spent.
Long term: Schneider, Wagner, Delgado, and their contracts are gone in 2010, leaving us with only Castillo as a real albatross. Wright and Reyes get raises, but are still well under market value. We still have a very strong rotation and a good and inexpensive bullpen. Ike Davis and Nick Evans are a good bet for a cheap and effective first base platoon in Ike finds his power. F! should be ready. But he might not be, and we have no catcher (Thole is interesting, though) or right fielder unless we resign Church (and we really would like a better option). We have holes, but we only have $70M or so in well-chosen commitments and we'll have some money to spend to fill those holes if our prospects don't pan out. (Matt Holiday comes to mind.) The plan: F! Beltran, and Holiday in the outfield. Wright and Reyes on the left. Evans, Murphy, Castillo, and eventually Ike on the left (with an eye for a mid level and highly tradeable upgrade--Nick Johnson, Adam Laroche, Marco Scutaro, Mark DeRosa, Iwamura, or Adam Everett--if it's necessary). Johan, Lowe, Pelf, Maine, Niese, possibly Holt and Mejia on the mound. Soriano, K-Rod (or Fuentes) Feliciano, Parnell (perhaps) on the left. Cost: if prospects pan out (and we can trade Lowe) about $115M (we add Holiday). If not, about $135. We'll have to acquire some mid-level talent like Laroche and Scutaro.
If injuries or power outages to key players kill us, those are the breaks, but it's a solid plan.
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34 comments
Comments
Rafael Soriano wasn't a free agent
and what would we do with Adrian Beltre? Move Wright?
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Aug 24, 2009 3:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Defensive wizards at third often make good at second
My bad on Rafael Soriano. Cots listed him as a 2009 free agent.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Aug 24, 2009 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castillo is a more valuable second basemen than Beltre would be.
His defense would decrease, though still be better than Luis’, probably, but his .304 OBP is abysmal and along with Francoeur and Santos, I probably couldn’t watch this team anymore.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Aug 24, 2009 6:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst OBP Team, Mets edition
LF:Valdez CF: Reed RF: Francoeur
3b:Tatis, SS: Berroa, 2b: Hernandez, 1b: Murphy
c: Take your pick, Schneider or Santos
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 24, 2009 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoah
This is a pretty bold claim. Beltre’s averaged 4 WAR over the previous three seasons, while Castillo’s at 1.7. For Castillo to be better, you would have to be weighting this year’s stats very heavily and docking Beltre a lot on defense for moving to second base.
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 24, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying it's a good idea NOW
But in the offseason, Castillo looked like a disaster, and Omar might have been well served thinking about replacing him. Beltre’s historically been a .335 ish OBP guy with great D and good power.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Aug 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think Cora was meant to be brought in as Castillo's insurance/replacement
Which wasn’t really a bad plan.
by Gina on Aug 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to be a jerk, but you said "this isn't second-guessing"
but during the offseason, you stated
All things being equal, I’ll take Perez or neither [regarding Lowe.] But it’s so close that it doesn’t really matter much. You make a decision and live with it.
by Sokojoe on Aug 24, 2009 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Now now
First of all, I immediately recanted that opinion after I read some of Dave Cameron’s work on fangraphs and Sky’s stuff on BtB. I was subsequently vociferously against perez.
Second…how the hell did you find that?
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Aug 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I didn't mean to call you out, I was actually curious about reactions to Perez
so I was looking through old posts, since I pretty much agree with your views a lot of the time I was surprised to see this comment.
by Sokojoe on Aug 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't second guessing either....
This is my offseason plan as posted on this site in December of 2008. It’s a relatively low budget team. And I believe my fantasy trade returns were very realistic. Most comments criticized me for not getting enough of a return on my trades.
Lets see how that team is doing, per fangraphs WAR or RAR:
RAR
24.3 SS Asdrubal Cabrerra
- 2.2 LF Dan Murphy
26.4 CF Carlos Beltran
41.3 1B Mark Teixeira
34.7 3B David Wright
40.3 OF Franklin Guttierez
14.3 CA Kelly Shoppach
18.8 2B Luis Castillo
03.6 RF Ryan Church
04.6 OF Fernando Tatis
12.3 OF Angel Pagan
01.4 IF Oscar Salazar
04.0 IF Joe Thurston
- 0.7 CA Brian Schneider
28.4 SP Johan Santana
02.9 SP John Maine
21.2 SP Mike Pelfrey
15.3 SP Jon Garland
14.8 SP Scott Richmond
02.1 CL Kerry Wood
- 5.8 SU BJ Ryan
13.6 SU H Street
10.4 MR Bobby Parnell
02.4 MR Jason Vargas
04.3 MR Joe Smith
00.6 SP Brian Stokes
-——-
333.3 RAR total
As I pointed out in the other thread, a replacement level team right now, through 124 games, would have 37 wins. At 33 wins above that, this team would have 70. That would be neck and neck with the Phillies (currently at 70 wins) atop the NL East.
Compare to Omar’s Mets using the same method
RAR
09.1 CA Santos
07.4 1B Delgado
18.8 2B Castillo
06.8 SS Reyes
34.7 3B Wright
03.6 LF Sheffield
26.4 CF Beltran
03.6 RF Church
- 1.3 IF Cora
- 2.2 IF Murphy
04.6 OF Tatis
12.3 OF Pagan
00.4 OF Francoer
- 0.7 CA Schneider
- 5.6 OF Reed
04.6 CA Castro
28.4 SP Santana
21.2 SP Pelfrey
10.4 SP Hernandez
- 7.0 SP Perez
02.9 SP Maine
02.7 CL Rodriguez
06.3 RP Parnell
01.0 RP Green
00.6 RP Stokes
05.1 RP Feliciano
00.8 SP Redding
01.4 SP Nieve
- 1.1 RP Dessens
- 2.6 SP Figueroa
00.8 RP Misch
-——
193.7 RAR
At 10 runs per win, that’s 19 wins above replacement, or 37+19 = 56 wins. The actual Mets have 57 wins.
by acerimusdux on Aug 24, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was one of the more realistic plans, esp. considering fan trades are usually pretty unrealistic
The Reyes injury defintily made it look better but even in hindsight I would want Reyes as I’m just not as impreseed with Asdrubal Cabrerra because of his 374 BABIP.
by Sokojoe on Aug 24, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he's a downgrade
Still, the other two guys are solid players. I expected Asdrubal to give you Reyes defense and OBP, and even a touch of speed, but with less power. But you are going to be paying Reyes a lot for that power soon anyway, and I’d just as soon be paying for real power at 1B. Shedding Reyes, Delgado, and going lower budget on the pen would have left Teixeira easily affordable.
But, the main reason to do it is the other two solid starters in Shoppach and Guttierez. I didn’t think Guttierez would be quite this good, but I was a big fan and though he was the best player involved in the Putz trade, including Putz. I was very pissed that he was had for Joe Smith and a decent infield prospect, when we gave up a boatload of talent for the 32 year old Putz with known arm issues. Ryan was also known to be of questionable health, but the key there for me was Richmond. I actually would have preferred Scott Downs to Ryan, but it was obvious the Jays did as well, and they would need to move Ryan to offset Delgado’s salary.
The key here for me was depth. The trio of Caberea, Shoppach, and Gutierrez fills three spots with solid players, and you help free up money to fill a fourth with Teixeira. Likewise, I focused on improving pitching depth. I left off above my minor league guys:
AAA minor league depth:
RAR
-- SP Wade Davis
05.8 SP Jon Niese
-- SP Adam Miller
-- SP Dillon Gee
- 4.7 1B/OF Nick Evans
00.9 1B Mike Carp
-- OF Richard Hidalgo
- 2.1 IF Argenis Reyes
OK, Hidalgo would have likely been released. Miller had an arm injury (I should have asked for David Huff instead). But, I’ve still got good pitching in the minors, and still have Carp.
by acerimusdux on Aug 24, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word, it's was a solid plan
It’s a question of philiosophy, is one superstar who will soon be paid like one worth three slightly above average players. Personally, I think FA Endy compares well to Guttierez and I love Th♥le so my alligence to Reyes is secure but I see where you’re coming from.
by Sokojoe on Aug 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends on whether you think paying Wright and Reyes will severely
hamper the mets in the free agent market in the future. And also whether Cleveland would have made it considering they don’t have the financial resources we do and they’d be giving up a lot of cheap talent.
by Gina on Aug 24, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cleveland
It is a good question whether Cleveland would have done it. My sense at the time was that after years of rebuilding, and stocking one of the better farm systems in the game, fans were disenchanted after a pretty disappointing 2008 season. Prospect weenies love the job Shapiro has done building up that system but lots of regular fans are getting fed up with the way the team has sold off many of their best players, like Sabbathia (and now this year, Lee).
As much depth as they have been building, I thought they might just be ready to deal from some of it and make a big offseason splash that might help put more fans in the seats, partly as signal to fans that they are ready to contend now. They probably still would end up not resigning Reyes in 2012, and taking the draft picks. But they could likely afford his salary until then.
I still think they are producing a lot of good complimentary talent, but might want to deal for a bit more impact talent. Though pitching would likely be their biggest priority.
by acerimusdux on Aug 24, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
guttierez>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>endy chavez
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Aug 24, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for the confusion
The discussion referred to over the winter, where Gutierrez was pretty comparable to Endy, this season he has def seperated himself by improving his bat to 2007 level while keep in the 2008 defense.
by Sokojoe on Aug 24, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera isn't bad
But 1.6 WAR last year and 2.4 WAR this year aren’t an adequate replacement for a healthy Reyes.
by JoshNY on Aug 24, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice
We were on the same page on a lot of fronts here. I really felt like Tex was the big FA worth targeting in the offseason, best positional FA to hit the market since Beltran. He would have shored up the right side defense and really lengthened out the lineup. And I also spent much of the middle part of this season advocating a Reyes trade, though that seems foolish now since his value is so tenuous. I also thought Kerry Wood was the best value at RP on the market, but I didn’t expect much to come of that being that Frankie was out there and Omar’s not exactly known for his subtlety in value distinctions.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 24, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed about Tex
He also would have been long-term middle of the line-up/power bat insurance. Where as now we just have major question marks in that area.
by Gina on Aug 24, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tex
Yes, Tex seemed like the one big guy in last years market who was a good bet to be worth his high price.
I’m not even that big a “trade Reyes” fan, and wouldn’t do it now off a bad year. I originally came up with that trade idea though in a thread elsewhere where the challenge was to “fix the Mets in three moves”. Since I thought depth was the big problem, I didn’t think it could be done properly with three FA signings. So I had to trade one major piece to improve the depth.
by acerimusdux on Aug 24, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I don’t want to get rid of him or anything, he just seems like the most tradable star player considering his contract situation. Beltran’s fairly unmovable with the NTC and all the money he’s owed, and Wright is under control for a few extra years.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 24, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we ever trade Reyes,
then the Francesa’s of the world win. So we can’t trade Reyes, no matter the haul we get, it just won’t be worth it.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Aug 24, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Teixeira
Well yeah, but everyone knew he was the best positional FA hitting the market, and the odds of outbidding the Yankees for him were so low that it was hardly even worth discussing, I thought.
by JoshNY on Aug 24, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well the Yankees didn't even get interested until they realized how
“low” his other offers and didn’t want him going to the red sox below market value. What he ended up signing was pretty reasonable I thought I definitely don’t think the Yankees overpayed to get him.
by Gina on Aug 24, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
22.5 mil a year for 8 years isn't exactly chump change
by Balagast on Aug 25, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then, Gina didn't say it was chump change
She said she didn’t think they overpaid. It’s not overpaying if you get your money’s worth. Fangraphs has him at 4.1 WAR, worth $18.5M, so far this year. Another comparable month and I could see the end-of-season value being right around the $22.5M he’s making.
That being said, the way Gina described it doesn’t match my recollection of how his free agency progressed; I thought they intended to throw however much money it took at him all along, with Giambi’s defensive misadventures having convinced them that a 1B with a competent glove matters.
by JoshNY on Aug 25, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't really seem that way to me
First thing they did was go out and acquire Swisher and essentially announce he’d be their first baseman. Seems like a strange ploy for a team that already had a crowded outfield, but it worked out well considering what happened with Nady.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 25, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? I remember those reports pre-free agency
But while he was actually be pursued it was Baltimore, the Red Sox and the Nats, the Yankees were never mentioned as even making an offer until the Red Sox capped their offer and threatened to walk away, since they had Baltimore and the Nats beaten, then the Yankees came in with their offer. Most reports i remember said Hal had no intention of adding another big contract/getting into a bidding war, after getting Sabathia and Burnett signed but Cashman convinced him when it looked like he would go to the Red Sox for well less than expected.
by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
I was actually in NY when it happened and most people seemed shocked the Yankees were even bidding.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Aug 27, 2009 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I stand corrected
Sheesh, you people are relentless
by JoshNY on Aug 27, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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